My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

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CULater
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:48 pm

TLC1957 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:24 pm
tapotti wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:07 am
I'm also looking into getting an extended warranty from GEICO (mechanical breakdown insurance). Still eligible as long as purchase date is within 15 months and 10k miles.
I purchased my CRV in November 2017 and also got the HondaCare warranty, below are $$ when I purchased my CRV, went with $0 deductible 120K miles 8 years for $ 1110, my sleep insurance. I check the oil regularly no issues to date.

College Hills Honda D82$1120,
Saccucci Honda D82 $1170, C82 $1065
Hyannis Honda D82 $1110, C82$1005
Curry Honda D82$1260, C82$1155

C82 $100 Deductible
D82 $0 Deductible

C/D 120K miles, 8 years
I thought about the warranty, but already have the 5 year manufacturer's powertrain warranty which is way longer than I'll be owning this vehicle. Anyhow, I prefer to not have problems that the manufacturer intends not to address proactively rather than a warranty to patch the problem (but not fix it) once it has become a severe inconvenience. Not very good sleep insurance for me. Glad to hear your oil checks look OK. Mine are getting worse. Oil level is now above the orange plastic tip on the dipstick and onto the metal.

What's that I see in my rearview mirror? Oh, it's my junk 2017 CRV as I drive away in my RAV4 (or similar) NON-HONDA vehicle!
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monkey_business
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by monkey_business » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:59 pm

Have there been actual engine failures documented specifically due to this issue?

CULater
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm

To add insult to injury, the maintenance minder says that my CRV needs a rear differential fluid change with 13,000 on the OD which bills at about $180 or so. What!!!! I think I'll just pour a little gas into the diffy. Should be cheaper and Honda thinks fuel dilution is OK.
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munemaker
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by munemaker » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:51 pm

CULater wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm
To add insult to injury, the maintenance minder says that my CRV needs a rear differential fluid change with 13,000 on the OD which bills at about $180 or so. What!!!! I think I'll just pour a little gas into the diffy. Should be cheaper and Honda thinks fuel dilution is OK.
This is easy and inexpensive to do yourself.

emoore
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by emoore » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:05 pm

munemaker wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:51 pm
CULater wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm
To add insult to injury, the maintenance minder says that my CRV needs a rear differential fluid change with 13,000 on the OD which bills at about $180 or so. What!!!! I think I'll just pour a little gas into the diffy. Should be cheaper and Honda thinks fuel dilution is OK.
This is easy and inexpensive to do yourself.
But in no way should a modern car require diff fluid change at 13k miles! Can’t wait until I can get rid of my ICE. Much less to worry about without it. Sorry CULater for having to deal with this. Sucks coming from a car company like Honda.

tapotti
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tapotti » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:16 am

My dipstick is also reading at the junction of the orange plastic and metal. This equates to about 1/2 quart of oil overfill. Had my oil checked by a mechanic yesterday to confirm this.

Interestingly, it seems that many others have a similar reading. My oil doesn't have a strong gasoline smell, but it has a mild scent.

At any rate, I've read that 1/2 quart too much oil shouldn't hurt an engine. Granted, this is maybe gasoline rather than oil. I'm not planning to send my oil to lab. If this is covered by a 5yr/60k warranty, that's plenty of time to see if this is going to be a serious issue for most of us.

I understand that 1500 mile trips is unnerving when you think you could have a breakdown. For me, I would be worried no matter what car I was driving :shock:

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:16 am

tapotti wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:16 am
My dipstick is also reading at the junction of the orange plastic and metal. This equates to about 1/2 quart of oil overfill. Had my oil checked by a mechanic yesterday to confirm this.

Interestingly, it seems that many others have a similar reading. My oil doesn't have a strong gasoline smell, but it has a mild scent.

At any rate, I've read that 1/2 quart too much oil shouldn't hurt an engine. Granted, this is maybe gasoline rather than oil. I'm not planning to send my oil to lab. If this is covered by a 5yr/60k warranty, that's plenty of time to see if this is going to be a serious issue for most of us.

I understand that 1500 mile trips is unnerving when you think you could have a breakdown. For me, I would be worried no matter what car I was driving :shock:
Curious how you were able to translate the level on the dipstick to the volume of overfill. I've never been able to find anything about that. I don't agree that this is not worrisome. The Drivers Manual is very clear about not overfilling the oil. I quote from page 149:

NOTICE
Do not fill the engine oil above the upper mark. Overfilling the engine oil can result in leaks and engine damage.


I've also viewed a couple of Youtube videos about fuel in oil and the narrators were clear that if the oil level increases above the overfill mark this is a serious concern and should be addressed immediately. Several victims have been instructed by Honda to get an oil change whenever the level rises above the overfill mark and some have been offered free oil changes according to blog posts I've read. Trouble is, this often means getting oil changes every 500 miles or so.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 am

CULater wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm
To add insult to injury, the maintenance minder says that my CRV needs a rear differential fluid change with 13,000 on the OD which bills at about $180 or so. What!!!! I think I'll just pour a little gas into the diffy. Should be cheaper and Honda thinks fuel dilution is OK.
Is there a sensor in the rear diff? When I'm really diligent, I change rear diff (and manual transmission) fluid every 30k miles. Most people go far longer. Just FYI, for really good diff fluid, you're talking $12 for 1 quart, which you won't completely use. The only tricky part is getting the fluid in, but with some hose on the end of the bottle, you can squeeze the container and take maybe 15 minutes to refill the diff.
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munemaker
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by munemaker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:29 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 am
CULater wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm
To add insult to injury, the maintenance minder says that my CRV needs a rear differential fluid change with 13,000 on the OD which bills at about $180 or so. What!!!! I think I'll just pour a little gas into the diffy. Should be cheaper and Honda thinks fuel dilution is OK.
Is there a sensor in the rear diff? When I'm really diligent, I change rear diff (and manual transmission) fluid every 30k miles. Most people go far longer. Just FYI, for really good diff fluid, you're talking $12 for 1 quart, which you won't completely use. The only tricky part is getting the fluid in, but with some hose on the end of the bottle, you can squeeze the container and take maybe 15 minutes to refill the diff.
- There is no sensor ine rear differential.
- You should only use Honda fluid in the rear differential.
- You should change it per the maintenance minder.
- If you don't change the fluid, the rear end will start to make noise. A friend of mine did that. The noise went away when the fluid was changed.
- You can buy a cheap hand pump at the auto parts store that fits in the bottle that makes filling easy. It is possible to fill it without the hand pump.
- There are YouTube videos that show how to change it.
- You don't have to raise the car. You can change it with the car on the ground.
- If you change your own oil, you can easily do this.
Last edited by munemaker on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

CULater
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:31 am

Can you get at the rear differential and change the fluid without a lift? $180 seems a little stiff for a DIY job.
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munemaker
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by munemaker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:43 am

CULater wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:31 am
Can you get at the rear differential and change the fluid without a lift? $180 seems a little stiff for a DIY job.
Yes, I am 6'2" 225# and I don't raise the car. Just slid under the car from behind.

You need a 3/8" drive rachet handle (no socket). Apply force, and it will let go all at once, so watch your knuckles. It is a good idea to put some "never sieze" (aka "anti-sieze", a coating you can buy at a parts store) on the threads of the pungs when you reinstall so next time the plugs will come out easier. There is a fill plug (top) and a drain plug (bottom).

Tips:
- Make sure the rachet is fully inserted in the plug when you apply force. Otherwise you could round it off. I learned that from experience.
- The plugs are pretty tight, especially the first time, so you may want a longer breaker bar or a piece of pipe that you can slide over the handle of the rachet to get more leverage. You can buy a cheap breaker bar and rachet at Harbor Freight.
- Always remove the fill plug first,then the drain plug. If you drain the differential and then can't get the fill plug out, you are in trouble.
- Watch some you tube videos. The plugs are in slightly different locations for different model years, but otherwise the procedure is the same for all model years.
- Make sure you use the correct fluid. Owner's manual specifies. Mine takes about 1.5 quarts (manual says 1.3 I believe). You may spill some while getting used to the fill procedure.
- Hand pump that fits in the Honda fluid bottle is available at auto parts stores, is cheap and makes filling easy.

EDIT: Almost forgot. There are crush washers on the drain and fill plug. You can flip them over and reuse them if you have to, but preferred method is to use new ones each time. They are available online (Amazon, eBay) or from the dealer. If you are picking up fluid from the dealer, just get two washers at the same time.

tapotti
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tapotti » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:18 am

Look at post #20 in this thread: https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/13 ... 545?page=2

This is where I got the dipstick number from. I couldn't verify firsthand, but it was still helpful to know and that matched the number the mechanic gave me.

Not trying to say that you shouldn't be concerned. I'm not happy about this either. Is Honda changing your oil free whenever you go in?

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:38 pm

tapotti wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:18 am
Look at post #20 in this thread: https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/13 ... 545?page=2

This is where I got the dipstick number from. I couldn't verify firsthand, but it was still helpful to know and that matched the number the mechanic gave me.

Not trying to say that you shouldn't be concerned. I'm not happy about this either. Is Honda changing your oil free whenever you go in?
Thanks. Sort of an undocumented number. Now that I've got about 5K since the last oil change the oil is dark and somewhat easier to see, but still surprisingly difficult because the low vis just slips down the dipstick when you extract it. I found that when I pull the dipstick out very quickly and turn it horizontal right away the oil has less time to slide down and I can see where it is more easily. I even have taken pains to put a level down on the garage floor to make sure it is perfectly level. Have confirmed with my second dipstick with the orange tip removed so I can get a reading more easily on it. Running about 1/2 inch above the full mark just over the top of the orange tip on the metal If the conversion is correct that would be about 1/2 qt. overfilled. I'll be at 30% on the MM soon and will have it changed then at another dealer where I bought the thing. I'll see what they have to say but expecting the usual "We haven't heard of that" and "keep an eye on it." denials. I'll show them the paperwork from the other dealer when they say "it must have been overfilled at your last oil change" which documents that they filled it exactly to the top mark. At this point, I'm just not even going to bother fighting with them. I'll just get the issue documented again and document that the change was exactly to the top mark as before. And, no I'm not getting free oil changes. What a PITA owning this vehicle is!
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

tapotti
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tapotti » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:31 pm

That's my concern, is that Honda can easily just blame someone else for overfilling, unless you get your oil changed at Honda. I hate going to the dealership, but it might be the only way to prevent them from using that argument.

Are you going to get another lab analysis of your current oil?

Also, help me understand this: if this problem is as serious as thought, how come there aren't more reports of new CRVs breaking down prematurely? I know Bogleheads forums isn't the place to check, but I'm not seeing much elsewhere either. Just a lot of paranoid individuals (including me) checking their oil every week.

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monkey_business
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by monkey_business » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:39 pm

tapotti wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:31 pm
Also, help me understand this: if this problem is as serious as thought, how come there aren't more reports of new CRVs breaking down prematurely? I know Bogleheads forums isn't the place to check, but I'm not seeing much elsewhere either. Just a lot of paranoid individuals (including me) checking their oil every week.
I've asked about this earlier in this thread up the page. As far as I can tell, people's engines are not failing because of this. In fact, I have a hard time finding anyone with actual problems because of this. The worst I've read is gas smell inside the cabin, which is pretty bad of course.

My concern with this is that maybe the issue will only become problematic long term, and Honda does not want to do costly premature repairs now on all the 1.5T engines out there. This is assuming they can even fix them without drastic measures, or without severely compromising the performance. So maybe there will more aggressive wear and tear, and more premature engine issues years from now.

Honestly though, I don't know. The 1.5T has been out for years now, and there are people out there that drive a lot and have racked up a lot of miles on some of these engines. I still cannot find people saying their engine failed prematurely because of this. Not saying it hasn't happened. Just hard to find a lot of data considering how prevalent this supposedly is.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:33 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:39 pm
tapotti wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:31 pm
Also, help me understand this: if this problem is as serious as thought, how come there aren't more reports of new CRVs breaking down prematurely? I know Bogleheads forums isn't the place to check, but I'm not seeing much elsewhere either. Just a lot of paranoid individuals (including me) checking their oil every week.
I've asked about this earlier in this thread up the page. As far as I can tell, people's engines are not failing because of this. In fact, I have a hard time finding anyone with actual problems because of this. The worst I've read is gas smell inside the cabin, which is pretty bad of course.

My concern with this is that maybe the issue will only become problematic long term, and Honda does not want to do costly premature repairs now on all the 1.5T engines out there. This is assuming they can even fix them without drastic measures, or without severely compromising the performance. So maybe there will more aggressive wear and tear, and more premature engine issues years from now.

Honestly though, I don't know. The 1.5T has been out for years now, and there are people out there that drive a lot and have racked up a lot of miles on some of these engines. I still cannot find people saying their engine failed prematurely because of this. Not saying it hasn't happened. Just hard to find a lot of data considering how prevalent this supposedly is.
I've seen a few reports from people who said they had engine damage that was attributed to oil dilution, but not lots and lots of them. Consider that the CRV with the 1.5T has been out now for about 20 months. I figure isn't enough time for enough damage to occur to the engine to cause a lot of failures. Just imagine if you constantly had your crankcase overfilled with actual oil. You would never do this, of course. The Owners Manual warns against that, and it's always been accepted wisdom that this is verboten, but how long do you think it would take before something significant happened to your engine? And would it be attributed to overfill? Will failures be attributed to oil dilution when this hasn't even been identified as a serious defect in the U.S., as it has been in China and in Canada? It's a very difficult problem to deal with. Besides the annoyance and worry I have, my confidence in the Honda brand has been trashed. I thought I was buying a vehicle that I could confidently drive for 10 year or longer, as I have in the past, but there's no way I would ever want to keep this one past the warranty period. If that's what I'd wanted I could have shopped a lot of other brands. Just a sad thing what has happened with Honda. I hope that Toyota still cares more about it's top reputation for reliability, and I'm thinking does because they have been very conservative in the engineering for the new RAV4: no turbo, no solo direct injection, no CVT. Now we know why Indy cars with Honda engines are fast, but they break and more Chevys get across the finish line.
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CULater
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:05 pm

I"m certainly no expert on engines but here's this:
there is a possibility of damage when the level in the oil pan is too high.

The result is that the spinning crankshaft can aerate the oil, whip it into a froth or foam as it moves through with each revolution. That oil, with tiny air particles in it, cannot do a proper lubricating job. In severe cases, insufficient oil flow could result in overheating – not a good thing.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-d ... cle555993/

So with the CRV, we have a chronic overfill problem which can cause serious engine damage in and of itself because it affects engine lubrication. And we have the problem of lots of fuel mixing with the oil which lowers it's viscosity and also adversely affects engine lubrication. Hard for me to believe this won't lead to engine damage and engine problems.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

tapotti
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tapotti » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:27 pm

The theory makes sense. But if lubrication is that poor, why aren't more CRVs failing? Are Honda engines so well designed that they withstand even the harshest of conditions? :wink:

Perhaps there is some confounding factor. As monkey business said, the theoretical severity of the problem does not match the data. That's the most unsettling thing for me.

As an aside, I only noticed this problem after my first oil change. Had no problems with the first batch of oil. Did you notice anything like this? Did my mechanic just screw it up?

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:54 pm

tapotti wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:27 pm
The theory makes sense. But if lubrication is that poor, why aren't more CRVs failing? Are Honda engines so well designed that they withstand even the harshest of conditions? :wink:

Perhaps there is some confounding factor. As monkey business said, the theoretical severity of the problem does not match the data. That's the most unsettling thing for me.

As an aside, I only noticed this problem after my first oil change. Had no problems with the first batch of oil. Did you notice anything like this? Did my mechanic just screw it up?
I did not check oil level at all before my first oil change with 30% on the MM. Then I did a 1300 mile drive to Arizona and maybe a couple hundred more locally. Then I heard about the oil dilution issue in China from a post on Bogleheads and decided to check mine. I was shocked to find it was well above the full mark and had strong gas smell on dipstick. Took it to the dealer to check it out and they basically stonewalled me, but changed the oil/filter and filled it right to the top mark which I checked carefully many times. Told me to come back in 500 miles to check. The oil level had increased about 8 mm above the top mark by then and again strong fuel smell, but Honda stonewalled me again and said the oil looked OK and did not have any fuel in it. I asked how they knew it didn't have any fuel in it and they vaguely said that it didn't smell like fuel. But it did. Now it's been about 5K miles since the first oil change and I'm up to about 12 mm (1/2 inch) above full. Long story short, I've had the problem ever since I started checking it and it seems to be getting worse. Virtually all the 5K miles have been in warm/hot weather with mostly highway driving. I don't use Econ mode at all in order to keep the revs higher. So the idea that this is a cold weather/short drive problem with the engine not getting sufficiently hot to burn off rogue fuel is simply Bull. Cold weather/short drives probably exacerbate the existing problem because it seems to be really terrible with CRVs in Northern China and Canada. But the real problem is a mis-engineered engine pure and simple.
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munemaker
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by munemaker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 pm

CULater wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:05 pm
I"m certainly no expert on engines but here's this:
there is a possibility of damage when the level in the oil pan is too high.

The result is that the spinning crankshaft can aerate the oil, whip it into a froth or foam as it moves through with each revolution. That oil, with tiny air particles in it, cannot do a proper lubricating job. In severe cases, insufficient oil flow could result in overheating – not a good thing.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-d ... cle555993/

So with the CRV, we have a chronic overfill problem which can cause serious engine damage in and of itself because it affects engine lubrication. And we have the problem of lots of fuel mixing with the oil which lowers it's viscosity and also adversely affects engine lubrication. Hard for me to believe this won't lead to engine damage and engine problems.
I have read of check engine lights coming on when the oil level gets high. I don't know this for a fact, but I am thinking maybe the check engine light comes before the engine oil level reaches the point where the spinning crankshaft whips it up, resulting in engine damage. Aside from that, you still have to be concerned about whether the gasoline contaminated oil is lubricating adequately. You could determine this through an oil analysis by checking for excess metal particles in the oil. You also have to be concerned about gasoline odors in the cabin. And who wants to drain excess oil out every X,000 miles.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by susa » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:40 am

monkey_business wrote: Have there been actual engine failures documented specifically due to this issue?
Read about Engine/Fuel System as listed by year,make,model on https://www.nhtsa.gov

Some people have dealers changing oil every few hundred miles now...

Couple items to be aware of and mitigation steps we've taken:

1. We use E0 (non-ethanol) fuel in all our Hondas, prices are identical to premium (octane 91 vs 93).
2. Dealers typically overfill the oil if car is serviced at dealer - check levels before you leave service area !
3. Using an oil filter relocation kit (an experiment), we installed a remote dual oil filter on couple of our Hondas and instantly increased the oil volume by over 1qt. While this does not resolve GDI fuel blowby issue, it does buy a little extra 'insurance' and also makes servicing the oil & filter change much easier. Combined with a Fumoto F106SX, we do not need any tools to drain, refill and swap out the 2 oil filters.
4. You need to occasionally 'drive like you stole it' !

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by susa » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:51 am

munemaker wrote: You need a 3/8" drive rachet handle (no socket). Apply force, and it will let go all at once, so watch your knuckles.
Couple more tips and these apply to any similar situation when changing the DW-1, HCF-2 (CVT), VTM-4 (Ridgeline) and differential(s):

We use a rachet handle mated with a small scissor jack, gently rotate the jack to a higher position and 'snap', the bolt in question opens up easily, no matter how tight it may have been torqued previously. Saves on knuckles too and minimal effort.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by dknightd » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:24 am

Thanks for the heads up. Note to self, do not buy a Honda with 1.5T engine.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:58 am

OIL ANALYSIS REPORT 8-24-18

I decided to have the oil analyzed on my 2017 CRV. Have owned for about 13 months and have 13,900 miles. 5,000 miles since last oil/filter change with 40% oil life remaining on maintenance minder. Miles are mostly highway/interstate driving with several long distance drives. Vehicle has been driven in the Midwest in summer/fall months and in Arizona during winter months with very little cold weather. Analysis was done by Oil Analyzers.

Report Severity: Level 4 (0 - 4 scale) - CRITICAL

Notable measurements: Fuel Dilution >5% - GC SEVERE
Oil Viscosity: 6.9 at 100-degrees C Normal Range 6.0 - 9.4 (e.g., Mobil 1 0W-20 is 8.7 as a reference)
Comments: Fuel dilution is at a SEVERE LEVEL. High fuel dilution can be common in direct injected engines. Although fuel dilution is flagged at a high level there is no apparent wear. Continue to monitor trend.
-------
So, there we have it. Severe fuel dilution not related to cold or short trip driving conditions. Viscosity of synthetic 0W-20 oil is at the low end of normal. At this low mileage, no indications yet of abnormal engine wear but I'm just barely smart enough to see what's coming as this vehicle ages and I don't want to be there for that. Would advise others to get this analysis done.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by dspencer » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:54 am

CULater wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:58 am
OIL ANALYSIS REPORT 8-24-18

I decided to have the oil analyzed on my 2017 CRV. Have owned for about 13 months and have 13,900 miles. 5,000 miles since last oil/filter change with 40% oil life remaining on maintenance minder. Miles are mostly highway/interstate driving with several long distance drives. Vehicle has been driven in the Midwest in summer/fall months and in Arizona during winter months with very little cold weather. Analysis was done by Oil Analyzers.

Report Severity: Level 4 (0 - 4 scale) - CRITICAL

Notable measurements: Fuel Dilution >5% - GC SEVERE
Oil Viscosity: 6.9 at 100-degrees C Normal Range 6.0 - 9.4 (e.g., Mobil 1 0W-20 is 8.7 as a reference)
Comments: Fuel dilution is at a SEVERE LEVEL. High fuel dilution can be common in direct injected engines. Although fuel dilution is flagged at a high level there is no apparent wear. Continue to monitor trend.
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So, there we have it. Severe fuel dilution not related to cold or short trip driving conditions. Viscosity of synthetic 0W-20 oil is at the low end of normal. At this low mileage, no indications yet of abnormal engine wear but I'm just barely smart enough to see what's coming as this vehicle ages and I don't want to be there for that. Would advise others to get this analysis done.
Thanks for sharing. I am wondering if I should get mine checked. Seems like a good idea, but ignorance is bliss...

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by monkey_business » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 pm

So I'm not sure what to make of that report. Obviously, the oil is getting gas mixed into it. However, the report is also showing that there is no extra wear. I would assume they're talking about finding particles in the oil that would indicate there is more friction or whatever else in the engine.

Is it possible that even though the oil is indeed getting diluted, it is not enough to cause more wear and tear or any problems? I'm again a bit puzzled because theoretically this is a serious issue, yet I don't see actual problems.

To the OP: Since the car drives fine, I would keep it, unless this is causing you to lose sleep. You still have the warranty for a good number of years. You can reevaluate when the warranty is close to expiring. The way I look at it is by selling it now, you lose a lot of money due to depreciation. Is this loss less than a potential engine repair in the future? This is assuming there will be repairs and Honda will not cover them, even partially. Just something to think about.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by dspencer » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:35 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 pm
You can reevaluate when the warranty is close to expiring. The way I look at it is by selling it now, you lose a lot of money due to depreciation. Is this loss less than a potential engine repair in the future? This is assuming there will be repairs and Honda will not cover them, even partially. Just something to think about.
That's basically my plan for now. I guess that worst case scenario is that the problem becomes known well enough to hurt the resale significantly, but doesn't force Honda's hand enough to actually fix it. I'm not sure how likely that scenario is though. It seems like for now the car is still very popular and the resale isn't affected. If this becomes a big enough problem for a prospective buyer to know about, you would think/hope Honda would have to do something at that point.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:33 pm

Couple things as I think over the oil analysis. First, the viscosity looks low but, as best I can tell, is still above the 6.0 threshold that would trigger a flag. I'm surmising that means it's just adequate and engine wear would be slow. This CRV has only 13,900 miles on it so much wear isn't showing up yet at least in terms of the things you might find in an oil analysis; but I'm pretty sure it will before long. Second, it seems clear that you should be doing oil changes very frequently on this vehicle because the fuel dilution is breaking it down much faster than it should and the maintenance minder is telling you. My oil analysis report advises that it should be changed immediately if it wasn't changed before I submitted the oil sample. Many posts on the web in which owners have been told to change oil every 500 miles, which is insane. Third, I wouldn't be comfortable driving this thing without doing frequent oil analyses to see what's going on. At about $45 a pop, that's an added expense and inconvenience that most people would find irksome.

This 1.5T Honda engine is a lemon IMO. Mazda had one like this a few years ago with massive fuel dilution but they were able to fix it with a software update. This engine can't be fixed that easily or Honda would have done it. There will have to be a replacement and you and I will be stuck with this one. This isn't the kind of junk that the old Honda would have put in their vehicles. They don't have any interest in dealing with it, and are relying on the ignorance of American auto buyers to get away with it IMO.

I'll be taking mine into the dealer where I bought it when I get back there in a couple of weeks. I'll show them my previous service report from the Honda dealer in Arizona, I'll show them the overfill on the dipstick, I'll show them the oil analysis report. I'll tell them about the hundreds of complaints posted on the internet. I'll ask them what they're going to do about it and they'll tell me "do an oil an filter change and keep an eye on it." I don't need this kind of stress and irritation in my life -- do you?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:48 pm

Lawsuit has been filed against Honda for it's direct injection engines. Here are some excerpts:
August 22, 2018 — A Honda "Earth Dreams" engine lawsuit alleges 2015-2018 Honda CR-Vs and 2016-2018 Honda Civics have 1.5-liter, 2-liter and 2.4-liter direct injection engines that are defective.

According to the plaintiffs, Honda has concealed its knowledge the Earth Dreams engines are prone to defects that cause fuel to enter the engine oil, damaging the bearings and engines permanently. Decreased oil viscosity and premature wear allegedly cause the CR-V SUVs and Civic cars to stall and fail while driving.

The lawsuit alleges the engines aren't properly lubricated once the oil loses its viscosity, causing too much strain on the engines when under higher loads. In addition to damaging the bearings, the rotating assemblies and other engine components allegedly can't handle the pressure without enough lubrication.

According to the Earth Dreams lawsuit, Honda has done nothing to help customers even when the vehicles are still covered by the powertrain warranties and sometimes even blames owners for not driving the vehicles for longer distances.

Further, the automaker hasn't recalled the CR-Vs and Civics to repair the engine problems, and no offers of reimbursement have been made.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... ivic.shtml
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:26 pm

But I wouldn't hold my breath until Honda does something about this engine. They are just now agreeing to settle a large class action lawsuit about vibration in the 2015 CRV and agreeing to provide repairs. This engine issue is way bigger than that.

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... uit-.shtml
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by davidkw » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:41 pm

CULater wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:48 pm
Lawsuit has been filed against Honda for it's direct injection engines. Here are some excerpts:
August 22, 2018 — A Honda "Earth Dreams" engine lawsuit alleges 2015-2018 Honda CR-Vs and 2016-2018 Honda Civics have 1.5-liter, 2-liter and 2.4-liter direct injection engines that are defective.

According to the plaintiffs, Honda has concealed its knowledge the Earth Dreams engines are prone to defects that cause fuel to enter the engine oil, damaging the bearings and engines permanently. Decreased oil viscosity and premature wear allegedly cause the CR-V SUVs and Civic cars to stall and fail while driving.

The lawsuit alleges the engines aren't properly lubricated once the oil loses its viscosity, causing too much strain on the engines when under higher loads. In addition to damaging the bearings, the rotating assemblies and other engine components allegedly can't handle the pressure without enough lubrication.

According to the Earth Dreams lawsuit, Honda has done nothing to help customers even when the vehicles are still covered by the powertrain warranties and sometimes even blames owners for not driving the vehicles for longer distances.

Further, the automaker hasn't recalled the CR-Vs and Civics to repair the engine problems, and no offers of reimbursement have been made.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... ivic.shtml

I have a 2013 Honda Accord that has been outstanding. I have been thinking about a CRV or another Honda Accord with all the latest safety features with collision avoidance and blind side notification. The bummer is that the Honda dealer service department has been outstanding and an easy 10 minute drive from my house. There are three Toyota dealers close by, but the traffic is rough getting to them.
David | | From Jack Brennan's "Straight Talk on Investing", page 23 "Living below your means is the ultimate financial strategy"

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:32 pm

I have a 2013 Honda Accord that has been outstanding. I have been thinking about a CRV or another Honda Accord with all the latest safety features with collision avoidance and blind side notification. The bummer is that the Honda dealer service department has been outstanding and an easy 10 minute drive from my house. There are three Toyota dealers close by, but the traffic is rough getting to them.
Not that you're asking me, but I wouldn't buy any Honda with the Earth Dreams engine unless the dealer gave me a written guarantee that they'd take the thing back if gasoline starts showing up in the oil. Ask them if they've even heard of the problem before buying one from them. I think you'll walk when you hear the answer.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by TLC1957 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:44 pm

Honda Canada just released this

http://www.hondanews.ca/en/news/release ... a-Vehicles


Statement Regarding Irregularly High Oil Levels in Certain Honda Vehicles




Honda has received some reports in Canada of irregularly high oil levels in certain Honda vehicles, which may be the result of extreme cold weather conditions. Honda is currently investigating the situation and developing a countermeasure. Honda is hopeful that vehicle enhancements will be released to address this condition in the next several months. At this time, Honda has no reason to believe that this potential issue affects the safe operation of a vehicle or results in any regulatory non-compliance. We encourage customers with concerns about their vehicle to visit their nearest Honda dealer to have their vehicle inspected. The vehicle’s warranty will apply to any related service or repairs.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:00 pm

Maybe an answer as to why high fuel dilution of oil might not affect engine wear as much on newer vehicles. It turns out that engine components are initially have anti-wear and anti-friction coatings which are likely to wear off over time and become less effective:
However, many parts also have coatings which are applied using very special methods, and which often have a purely functional rather than a visual pur- pose. For example, pistons, connecting rods, bearing shells, vibration dampers, drive components, drive shafts, gearbox parts and even diesel injection pumps are all coated. The reasons for coating components may vary greatly. Reduced wear, increased performance, protection against corrosion, ease of installation, increased operating temperature range, reduced weight and even cost savings thanks to a reduced need for conventional bearing systems or additional lubricants – these are just some of the benefits which can be achieved by coating components. For example, friction losses on modern engines are often reduced by using anti-friction lacquer, which is very effective in improving the lubricant properties of oil films.
https://www.sprimag.com/fileadmin/user_ ... 5_1_EN.pdf
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:56 am

I've decided that I've invested so much into investigating this engine defect with my CRV that I'm unable to just walk away quietly and sell or trade the vehicle. I intend to seek full compensation from the Honda dealer who sold me the vehicle through a buyback, or if this remedy is refused I intend to begin pursuing legal action against Honda in this matter. This isn't right and needs to be made right. Thanks to the Boglehead Forum for providing me with a voice for this issue.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by munemaker » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:20 am

CULater wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:56 am
I've decided that I've invested so much into investigating this engine defect with my CRV that I'm unable to just walk away quietly and sell or trade the vehicle. I intend to seek full compensation from the Honda dealer who sold me the vehicle through a buyback, or if this remedy is refused I intend to begin pursuing legal action against Honda in this matter. This isn't right and needs to be made right. Thanks to the Boglehead Forum for providing me with a voice for this issue.
What damages have you incurred? How will you demonstrate those damages to the court?

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:30 am

munemaker wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:20 am
CULater wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:56 am
I've decided that I've invested so much into investigating this engine defect with my CRV that I'm unable to just walk away quietly and sell or trade the vehicle. I intend to seek full compensation from the Honda dealer who sold me the vehicle through a buyback, or if this remedy is refused I intend to begin pursuing legal action against Honda in this matter. This isn't right and needs to be made right. Thanks to the Boglehead Forum for providing me with a voice for this issue.
What damages have you incurred? How will you demonstrate those damages to the court?
I'm happy to provide updates on the my progress periodically if this is acceptable to the moderators. It will be a learning experience but I've decided I'm willing to undertake it at this point.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:53 am

My first step is to prepare a detailed letter reciting my experience with this oil-dilution issue and the steps I've taken to address it with Honda. I'll also specify the major social media websites where there are hundreds or thousands of posts and complaints. I will present the letter to the dealership where I purchased the vehicle and ask for a full compensation buyback of the vehicle. I initiated a Case # with Honda several months ago, so I will forward the letter to them if/when the dealer refuses compensation. If I do not receive a satisfactory response from Honda, I will investigate and pursue legal action. Fortunately, I've kept good records of this matter to support my claim. I figure it will take a few of us who are willing to do more than just complain about this issue to get something done. I'm pretty sure this is a big deal for Honda - they probably have more than a million of these engines in Civics, Accords, and CRVs.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by bob60014 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:02 am

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... ivic.shtml

I'm surprised this hasnt gone "class action".

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:21 am

bob60014 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:02 am
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... ivic.shtml

I'm surprised this hasnt gone "class action".
Note from the article you linked (and I cited upthread) it is going class-action.
Filed by plaintiffs Troy Fath, Vincent Puma and Higinio Bautista, the proposed class-action lawsuit includes all former and current owners and lessees of the named Honda vehicles.
My understanding is that the action must first be certified as a class-action, and this would be the next step in the process:
Once the class action complaint is filed and served on the defendant, a court must certify the class. Depending on the state, either the court will initiate the certification process or the plaintiff must file a motion to have the class certified before the case can proceed.
http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/per ... suit.html

I was already contacted by one of the firms, Sauder Schelkopf, involved in this action. I don't know much about joining a class-action lawsuit: does that mean that I can't receive a personal settlement such as a buyback? Do I have to hang onto the vehicle forever because it's involved in a long-running class-action lawsuit? What would be the net benefit to me if the class-action lawsuit is successful? Before doing that, I would want to consult with a personal attorney to pursue options. I'd prefer a personal reimbursement for the cost of the vehicle. I'll want to consult an attorney regarding qualifying for a Lemon Law claim.

Lucky for me I'm retired with plenty of time on my hands and I was looking for a project.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:12 am

Remember that these posts are searchable by google. Don't post any personally identifiable information related to your actions.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by invst65 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:26 pm

CULater wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:21 am
I don't know much about joining a class-action lawsuit: does that mean that I can't receive a personal settlement such as a buyback?
Based on my experience with class-action lawsuits, the lawyers will make a lot of money and you'll get $50 off your next Honda purchase.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by davidkw » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:32 pm

If not the Honda CRV, what do you recommend? RAV4, Subaru Forrester???
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Turbo29 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:47 pm

invst65 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:26 pm
CULater wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:21 am
I don't know much about joining a class-action lawsuit: does that mean that I can't receive a personal settlement such as a buyback?
Based on my experience with class-action lawsuits, the lawyers will make a lot of money and you'll get $50 off your next Honda purchase.
I used to think that too until I got $15K from Volkswagen for an 8yo Jetta diesel in the emissions cheating scandal. Then received $600 from Bosch (manufacturer of the injection system) a few months later. It was several thousand more than I could have sold the car for.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:56 pm

Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that by default you would be included in the class if you are a current or former owner of an affected vehicle, which would be all 2016-2018 Civics, Accords, and CRVs with the Earth Dreams DI engine. You don't have to do anything except remain aware of the class action suit, so you would receive whatever judgment applies to your particular subgroup of the settlement. You will have the opportunity to opt out of the class-action if you choose to pursue your own remedy.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:45 pm

I took a picture of my CRV dipstick today, showing the oil (er, gas/oil mixture) level on the metal about 1/2 inch above the overfill mark on the orange plastic tip.

Image
Last edited by CULater on Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by tapotti » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:45 pm

Does the oil analysis say specifically what percentage is fuel? Or just ">5%".

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:53 am

tapotti wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:45 pm
Does the oil analysis say specifically what percentage is fuel? Or just ">5%".
Just >5%. By ratio, assuming the distance between the upper and lower fill marks corresponds to 1 quart, the amount of fuel in the oil would be about 15% - 20% or between 1/2 to 3/4 quart. The fluid level has been rising. It used to be near the top part of the orange plastic tip. You can assume that unburned fuel is continually accumulating in the sump. I'm contacting them to see if they have a specific figure.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:32 am

While fuel dilution — the result of engine oil mixing with unburnt fuel in the crankcase — is attributable to many causes, the effects are always reduced oil viscosity and, thus, performance. Unchecked, fuel dilution can eventually lead to damaged components and engine failure.

Certified Lubrication Specialist Lake Speed Jr. of Driven Racing Oil explains as little as a 5 percent fuel dilution can lower the viscosity of an SAE 30 grade oil to SAE 20, meaning there is less of an oil film to protect surfaces, the oil is also less stable in high temperatures, and its cleaning properties are compromised. Don’t change that oil sooner than planned and you’re bound to end up with wear, or worse.

He advises fuel dilution of 4 percent or greater warrants immediate action. But, how do you know if your engine oil falls into that category? Oil analysis.
https://www.powerperformancenews.com/te ... ems-early/
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:11 am

More precise figures on fuel dilution estimate:

Distance between upper and lower fill marks on dipstick = 11/16 inch
Height of fluid level on dipstick above overfill mark on dipstick = 8/16 inch
Ratio of overfill height to distance between fill marks = 8/11 = .73
Interpolated fuel amount in crankcase (assume 1 qt between fill marks) = .73 qt.

So, about 3/4 qt. of fuel is mixed with the normal capacity of 3.7 qt of oil in sump and filter. By my calculation the total volume of fluid with dilution would be 3.7 qt + .73 qt = 4.43 qt. of which .73 qt is fuel = .73/4.43 = 16.5% fuel percentage of total or 16.5% dilution if my figures are correct.
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