My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

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TLC1957
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by TLC1957 »

Based on this thread on the CRV owners forum if you are in Canada the dealers are starting to call customers to bring the vehicle in for the fix, let's hope Honda USA is not far behind :annoyed

https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/13 ... -here.html
Wakefield1
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Wakefield1 »

CFM300 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:24 am What happens if a CRV with a presently high oil level as a result of dilution is taken on, say, an hour-long highway trip. Does the gas then "vaporize" (as mentioned in the video) such that the oil level returns to normal by the end of the trip?
Probably the same thing as my 1967 Oldsmobile V8 used to do-"made oil" when driven on short trips only during cold weather,when it was driven on a good long highway drive the oil level dropped (and that thing generally used at least one quart per 1000 miles if not more. That thing had a lot of metal that had to warm up.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Wakefield1 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:05 am From what I can find (still not 100% sure), this CRV has a 172F thermostat. If that's the case, that's amazingly low operating temperature. Back when I had my Lotus Elise, I replaced the garbage, plastic Toyota 190F thermostat with an Auto Zone all metal 180F thermostat as there was far more problems from overheating than low temp operation. There were 50 different choices from Autozone for thermostats. Looking around Autozone, NAPA and random google searches, I can't find anything for that 1.5T CRV engine. Seems to be some mongrel design or something. It may not be so easy to replace it as I first thought. Certainly if they aren't available stock, finding my own choice of temp opening is going to be much more difficult.

Also, just a point of information. Oil takes much longer to get up to temperature than does the coolant. So when you go on your cold morning drive, although you have nice heat blowing and normal temp showing on the gauge, it's typically a solid 20 minutes of driving before oil comes up to temp. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges. I remember vividly my 90 BMW M3 which did and how long it took to warm up as I drove to work and it was just before I got on the highway, which was at the 20 minute point. The driving to that point was neighborhoods and country roads. So if your commute is 20 minutes, you likely have not even reached operating temperature for the oil. Of course, if you drive 2 minutes and blast onto the highway, it'll warm up quicker.
Does any ordinary car sold today have a coolant to oil heat exchanger? Could aid in bringing up oil temperature from cold as well as limit excessive temperatures from being reached (if the system were properly engineered)
As I remember 1950 cars had 160* thermostats but that was because of the then popular alcohol antifreeze of the time,if "permanent" antifreeze was used 180* might have been available and preferred
Rambler I think was first to use a 190* thermostat instead of 180* because the fuel economy was infinitesimally better (if the radiator and cooling system are adequate then the car shouldn't overheat with the hotter thermostat)
now that I think about it VG 30 engine in Pathfinder and 300zx might have had coolant passage in contact with oil pump body which might have served as a rudimentary heat exchange area
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by LadyGeek »

TLC1957 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:52 pm Based on this thread on the CRV owners forum if you are in Canada the dealers are starting to call customers to bring the vehicle in for the fix, let's hope Honda USA is not far behind :annoyed

https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/13 ... -here.html
FYI - That thread contains a link to Honda Canada's recall website: Honda Vin Recalls

Enter your VIN (Vehicle ID number) to see if there are any pending recalls against your car. This is for all Canadian Honda vehicles, not just CR-V.

Update: Corrected post - the link is for Honda Canada.

The US link is here: Recall Information for Safety & Defects | Honda Owners Site
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Helo80
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Helo80 »

CULater wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:00 pm I first noticed the problem in Phoenix last March and took it to Arrowhead Honda. They had never heard of it then but should know about it now because of my case. It's incredible to me that these braindead dealers are still acting like they don't know about this!


You would think that most sales departments would know everything, good and bad, about a product. Sadly, they do not. Most car salesmen are there to sell cars... and often the best sales folks can sell any product... including ice in Antarctica. Think Porsche dealers... the brand has a huge following and there are people who can tell you everything about the models, specs, cars, etc. But, those people do not make the best salesmen; surprisingly, knowing too much about the technical or engineering aspects of a product can make one distant and not in tune with the consumer. At the end of the day, Porsche shoppers have a lot of money to blow (or want others to think they have a lot of money) and want a fine piece of German engineering.

BTW -- Most car dealerships have high turnovers. Selling cars can be a tough industry as early on, it can be long hours and basically always on-call work. If you show a customer a car on Monday, you have no idea if/when they'll come back. If it's Friday at 7:30 PM and they're ready to sign, you better be there.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by TLC1957 »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:01 pm
TLC1957 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:52 pm Based on this thread on the CRV owners forum if you are in Canada the dealers are starting to call customers to bring the vehicle in for the fix, let's hope Honda USA is not far behind :annoyed

https://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/13 ... -here.html
FYI - That thread contains a link to Honda's recall website: Honda Vin Recalls

Enter your VIN (Vehicle ID number) to see if there are any pending recalls against your car. This is for all Honda vehicles, not just CR-V.
The link only works if you have a Honda located in Canada, does not work for USA vehicles ....well at least it did not work on my Canadian made BUT located in the USA 2017 CRV.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ You're right, thanks. I missed the ".ca" in the link and have corrected my post.

The US link is here: Recall Information for Safety & Defects | Honda Owners Site

I entered the VIN for my own '12 CR-V, all OK.
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RetiredAL
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by RetiredAL »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:05 am From what I can find (still not 100% sure), this CRV has a 172F thermostat. If that's the case, that's amazingly low operating temperature.

You are forgetting about the electric fans which kick on at a much higher temp.

Also, just a point of information. Oil takes much longer to get up to temperature than does the coolant. BINGO! So when you go on your cold morning drive, although you have nice heat blowing and normal temp showing on the gauge, it's typically a solid 20 minutes of driving before oil comes up to temp. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges. I remember vividly my 90 BMW M3 which did and how long it took to warm up as I drove to work and it was just before I got on the highway, which was at the 20 minute point. The driving to that point was neighborhoods and country roads. So if your commute is 20 minutes, you likely have not even reached operating temperature for the oil. Of course, if you drive 2 minutes and blast onto the highway, it'll warm up quicker.
CFM300 asked about taking an hour long drive - That should be than long enough for the oil to warm up and start driving the vapors out, unless you live in a -20F climate.

Wakefield1 asked about coolant to oil heat exchanger - Although common in some industrial applications to pre-heat lube oil and/or hydraulic fluid, I've never heard of that on a car. This is common with diesel backup generators, where they need go to 100% load in a few seconds. Do note that those who live in really cold climates and don't garage their vehicles, tend to add 120v plugin coolant and pan heaters to their cars/trucks AND run lighter weight oil in the winter than in the summer.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by catalina355 »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:08 pm ^^^ You're right, thanks. I missed the ".ca" in the link and have corrected my post.

The US link is here: Recall Information for Safety & Defects | Honda Owners Site

I entered the VIN for my own '12 CR-V, all OK.
That could be because Honda USA has not issued a recall for the oil dilution problem.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by RetiredAL »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:08 pm ^^^ You're right, thanks. I missed the ".ca" in the link and have corrected my post.

The US link is here: Recall Information for Safety & Defects | Honda Owners Site

I entered the VIN for my own '12 CR-V, all OK.
LadyG - Since your CRV does not have the Turbo Charged engine, it's likely to have a much higher crankcase ventilation flow, thus it scavenges the vapors out of the oil pan faster. A Turbo engine can't suck while in boost, even at low boost, because there is no intake manifold vacuum to suck the vapors out.

Add to this, that with any Direct Injection engine, and most Turbo's are in this category, they want to minimize the vapor draw to reduce intake valve buildup, as Direct Injection does not put any fuel across the intakes to clean them.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Dead Man Walking »

Took my 2014 CR-V in for service last week. The service manager at my Honda dealership is aware of the problem; however, he said that they haven't had any cars with the turbocharged engine exhibit the problem. He was confident that Honda will come up with a fix. He just smiled when I said the "fix" would probably be an extension of the warranty to 7 years or 100,000 miles for the turbocharged engines. That was the "fix" Honda came up with when the automatic transmission in the 2000 V6 Accords experienced problems. I traded my 2000 V6 Accord when it was nearly 7 years old because I noticed a slight problem with shifting.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by 2017HatchCivic »

I borrowed my buddies scanner tonight. Drove 110km on the highway. The complete ride home coolant temp 1 peaked at 172F, coolant temp 2 peaked at 60f. Got home after driving 110km and the radiator was bone cold, and hose coming from thermostat housing was cool. Most manufactures are running 195-212f coolant temps to meet emission standard and for efficacy. Does anyone know why Honda has chosen to design a cooling system that seams to be so efficient? Coming from the diesel industry it almost like these cars need a winter front! I could just imagine the cooling effecianty when it’s -30 outside. Other data I recorded on the drive home. Engine load factor avg = 15%, air/fuel ration hovering around 14.6 to 1, ambient air temp= 1C. I have read that these thermostats start opening at 168-175 and are fully open at 195f. It seems as if the cooling pack is so effeciant that even just cracking the thermostat the engine temps can’t raise. China seems to be replacing the lower rad hose... is this new hose smaller to restrict flow? Lowering cooling system efficiency?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by GW208 »

2017HatchCivic wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:26 am Coming from the diesel industry it almost like these cars need a winter front!
I think it has one built in.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNv5Nuza87I
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by 2017HatchCivic »

GW208 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:54 am
2017HatchCivic wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:26 am Coming from the diesel industry it almost like these cars need a winter front!
I think it has one built in.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNv5Nuza87I
My civic does not have this. Pretty cool design tho!
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

2017HatchCivic wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:26 am I borrowed my buddies scanner tonight. Drove 110km on the highway. The complete ride home coolant temp 1 peaked at 172F, coolant temp 2 peaked at 60f. Got home after driving 110km and the radiator was bone cold, and hose coming from thermostat housing was cool. Most manufactures are running 195-212f coolant temps to meet emission standard and for efficacy. Does anyone know why Honda has chosen to design a cooling system that seams to be so efficient? Coming from the diesel industry it almost like these cars need a winter front! I could just imagine the cooling effecianty when it’s -30 outside. Other data I recorded on the drive home. Engine load factor avg = 15%, air/fuel ration hovering around 14.6 to 1, ambient air temp= 1C. I have read that these thermostats start opening at 168-175 and are fully open at 195f. It seems as if the cooling pack is so effeciant that even just cracking the thermostat the engine temps can’t raise. China seems to be replacing the lower rad hose... is this new hose smaller to restrict flow? Lowering cooling system efficiency?
Thanks for this information. I recall that from somewhere, Honda said the 1.5T engine was "too efficient." Maybe this is what they meant. What troubles me is that the details of the proposed "fix" don't seem to address this issue at all. I remain concerned that the fix is not intended to solve a problem I, and many others have: fuel dilution in normal ambient temperatures with long highways drives. If the engine just isn't heating up enough to burn off excess fuel collecting in the oil pan the problem will remain. I fear it won't be different until the engine is re-engineered and that won't be happening until the next gen engine appears in Honda vehicles.
Last edited by CULater on Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wasp09
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by wasp09 »

One important clause of the 1.5T engine recalls in China was a life time warranty on some internal engine parts. The RM500 gift certificate would also make owners happier. We'll see if the "counter measure" is really effective next 6 months in Canada/China.

BTW, if the mixing ratio was steady at 14.6:1, shouldn't the fuel be fully burnt, where did the dilution come from?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by NHRATA01 »

Wakefield1 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:16 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:05 am From what I can find (still not 100% sure), this CRV has a 172F thermostat. If that's the case, that's amazingly low operating temperature. Back when I had my Lotus Elise, I replaced the garbage, plastic Toyota 190F thermostat with an Auto Zone all metal 180F thermostat as there was far more problems from overheating than low temp operation. There were 50 different choices from Autozone for thermostats. Looking around Autozone, NAPA and random google searches, I can't find anything for that 1.5T CRV engine. Seems to be some mongrel design or something. It may not be so easy to replace it as I first thought. Certainly if they aren't available stock, finding my own choice of temp opening is going to be much more difficult.

Also, just a point of information. Oil takes much longer to get up to temperature than does the coolant. So when you go on your cold morning drive, although you have nice heat blowing and normal temp showing on the gauge, it's typically a solid 20 minutes of driving before oil comes up to temp. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges. I remember vividly my 90 BMW M3 which did and how long it took to warm up as I drove to work and it was just before I got on the highway, which was at the 20 minute point. The driving to that point was neighborhoods and country roads. So if your commute is 20 minutes, you likely have not even reached operating temperature for the oil. Of course, if you drive 2 minutes and blast onto the highway, it'll warm up quicker.
Does any ordinary car sold today have a coolant to oil heat exchanger? Could aid in bringing up oil temperature from cold as well as limit excessive temperatures from being reached (if the system were properly engineered)
As I remember 1950 cars had 160* thermostats but that was because of the then popular alcohol antifreeze of the time,if "permanent" antifreeze was used 180* might have been available and preferred
Rambler I think was first to use a 190* thermostat instead of 180* because the fuel economy was infinitesimally better (if the radiator and cooling system are adequate then the car shouldn't overheat with the hotter thermostat)
now that I think about it VG 30 engine in Pathfinder and 300zx might have had coolant passage in contact with oil pump body which might have served as a rudimentary heat exchange area
The temperature rating on the thermostat is when the thermostat begins to open and allow coolant to flow through the radiator. So a car will typically run warmer than the thermostat temperature under normal operation. Most modern cars run closer 200-210 for emissions purposes. Also most modern coolant temperature gauges have been dampened to the point of basically being an idiot light so they're not particularly useful for accurate measurements. People complained too much about temperature gauges moving so no you basically have a gauge that reads cold, operating temp (with probably a 50 degree spread covered by that) smack in the middle, and overheating.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by 2017HatchCivic »

wasp09 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:10 am One important clause of the 1.5T engine recalls in China was a life time warranty on some internal engine parts. The RM500 gift certificate would also make owners happier. We'll see if the "counter measure" is really effective next 6 months in Canada/China.

BTW, if the mixing ratio was steady at 14.6:1, shouldn't the fuel be fully burnt, where did the dilution come from?
It wasn’t steady, it was hovering around 14.6:1 once on the highway. So it must be coming from the warm up period or maybe at lower rpm’s to prevent LSPI.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by wasp09 »

We know that all engines use a rich mixture when they are cold.

Put an eye on heavy load conditions say, a loaded up CRV against a strong wind or uphill, after warm up. I wonder if the air fuel ratio would dip way below 14.6:1 as the CVT tends to keep the rpm low and put the engine in the LSPI region.

There was a post about dilution after go for a long trip on highway against the wind. If that happens, perhaps you should keep the scanner, slow down when the air fuel ratio becomes rich.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by NHRATA01 »

wasp09 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:19 am We know that all engines use a rich mixture when they are cold.

Put an eye on heavy load conditions say, a loaded up CRV against a strong wind or uphill, after warm up. I wonder if the air fuel ratio would dip way below 14.6:1 as the CVT tends to keep the rpm low and put the engine in the LSPI region.

There was a post about dilution after go for a long trip on highway against the wind. If that happens, perhaps you should keep the scanner, slow down when the air fuel ratio becomes rich.
They only run rich in the first minute or two after startup while running in open loop - it takes about that long for the O2 sensors to heat up enough to provide a reading and thus give feedback to go into closed loop tune, as well as achieve ~160F coolant temperature in the block. Secondary purpose is for the catalytic converter to light off but that is accomplished in about 15-20 seconds. Once the car is running in closed loop it will target 14.7:1 stoich ratio for a majority of cruising condition. Application of the throttle past a % open and increase in boost pressure from the turbo will result in a rich mixture. If going up a steep enough incline in a higher gear, producing a pretty decent load on the engine, I suppose it could run rich.

Really at the end of the day this should not be a complex issue for Honda to solve. If fuel dilution is substantial enough to raise the oil level, that is frankly a tremendous amount of fuel being dumped in the cylinder and getting past the rings. Modifying the tune should be able to address this, unless the injector nozzle design and combustion chamber design is so poor as to hinder atomization of the fuel in the CC. In which case that won't be a quick fix.

If you're ever curious, google a picture of GM LT1 V8 pistons - the shape of the crown of the piston is quite unique in design so as to help with DI atomization vs a more typical piston. Wonder what these 1.5L pistons look like.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

If fuel dilution is substantial enough to raise the oil level, that is frankly a tremendous amount of fuel being dumped in the cylinder and getting past the rings. Modifying the tune should be able to address this, unless the injector nozzle design and combustion chamber design is so poor as to hinder atomization of the fuel in the CC. In which case that won't be a quick fix.
That's my guess. If it were a simple tuning tweak, they would have provided that long ago. Now they are supposedly going to do something like this with some software changes in November but I'm skeptical this will do much. It might help people who are having worst case fuel dilution in colder climates, but I don't know what that will end up doing to engine performance. I'd be amazed it they can fix the problem for people like me who drive in normal weather climates and typically do long drives at highway speeds. I'm hopeful part of the fix is a warranty extension. That may come in handy because I plan on just driving the dammed thing with no regard to elevated oil level, get the scheduled oil changes to preserve warranty coverage, and if it breaks it breaks.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by wasp09 »

Good approach. The extended warranty does not cover a worn engine unless it breaks.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Lugerhead »

NHRATA01 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:37 am
wasp09 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:19 am We know that all engines use a rich mixture when they are cold.

Put an eye on heavy load conditions say, a loaded up CRV against a strong wind or uphill, after warm up. I wonder if the air fuel ratio would dip way below 14.6:1 as the CVT tends to keep the rpm low and put the engine in the LSPI region.

There was a post about dilution after go for a long trip on highway against the wind. If that happens, perhaps you should keep the scanner, slow down when the air fuel ratio becomes rich.
They only run rich in the first minute or two after startup while running in open loop - it takes about that long for the O2 sensors to heat up enough to provide a reading and thus give feedback to go into closed loop tune, as well as achieve ~160F coolant temperature in the block. Secondary purpose is for the catalytic converter to light off but that is accomplished in about 15-20 seconds. Once the car is running in closed loop it will target 14.7:1 stoich ratio for a majority of cruising condition. Application of the throttle past a % open and increase in boost pressure from the turbo will result in a rich mixture. If going up a steep enough incline in a higher gear, producing a pretty decent load on the engine, I suppose it could run rich.

Really at the end of the day this should not be a complex issue for Honda to solve. If fuel dilution is substantial enough to raise the oil level, that is frankly a tremendous amount of fuel being dumped in the cylinder and getting past the rings. Modifying the tune should be able to address this, unless the injector nozzle design and combustion chamber design is so poor as to hinder atomization of the fuel in the CC. In which case that won't be a quick fix.

If you're ever curious, google a picture of GM LT1 V8 pistons - the shape of the crown of the piston is quite unique in design so as to help with DI atomization vs a more typical piston. Wonder what these 1.5L pistons look like.
There’s another very small part that plays a huge part in all this and it a knock sensor. It’s bolted to the block and listening for any kind of spark knock (denonation). Mfgs are scared to death of denonation, cracks piston, rings, pops head bolts, head gaskets and burns nasty holes in pistons. If it hears denonation and signals the ECU that it has, the ECU will retard the ignition timing a lot. When this happens the efficiently of the engine goes way down. Basically not burning the fuel completely. Inturn we use that right foot to give it even more fuel to make it do what we want, even that the engine already has enough fuel to do the job. So there’s even more fuel going it. When I bought my CRV I noticed it would kind of hesitate or just fall on its face when pulling off from a stop. First thought it was shifting to a higher ratio but finally realized it wasn’t the transmission shifting but just plain loosing power. Meantime I’d marked the dipstick and was watching the oil level. I posted the whole story back on page 7 of this thread. I’m not going to go through that story again but I’ve not had measurable fuel dilution since I switched to 93 octane fuel and the hesitation is gone. I’m over 12k miles now, about 3600 miles on the last oil change and the oil level hasn’t changed and the oil looks good. I really think Honda has built a great premium fuel engine but won admit it, just keep trying to market it to run on 87 octane. I “think” the dilution is happening every time you take off or accelerate because of the retarded ignition timing. That also means everyone may have a different amount depending on how spirited of a driver you are. Hard acceleration would make it dilute more and faster. All this is just my thoughts and from messing with this thing.
I would also like to thank everyone on this thread for just being nice and respectful to others. There are other forums that really get ugly which I think doesn’t make sense being we are all in the same boat.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by wasp09 »

If it is LSPI (low speed pre-igition, AKA the super knock found in turbo DI engines), it cannot be stopped by retarding the ignition timing since it is really not ignited by spark. the pre-ignition is caused by glowing particles left floating inside the cylinders at the intake cycle.

One counter measure is to give the engine a rich mixture. There would be no oxygen left after a power cycle so as to extinguish the floating particles. That may lead to dilution if overdone.

The other option is simply avoiding low rpm when taking a heavy load (i.e. transmission should downshift when we step on the gas). LSPI is less likely to happen at higher rpm.

Some engine oils claim that they can fight LSPI. Oil dilution itself definitely makes LSPI worse as the "oil" is more combustible.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

Lugerhead wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:06 pm
NHRATA01 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:37 am
wasp09 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:19 am We know that all engines use a rich mixture when they are cold.

Put an eye on heavy load conditions say, a loaded up CRV against a strong wind or uphill, after warm up. I wonder if the air fuel ratio would dip way below 14.6:1 as the CVT tends to keep the rpm low and put the engine in the LSPI region.

There was a post about dilution after go for a long trip on highway against the wind. If that happens, perhaps you should keep the scanner, slow down when the air fuel ratio becomes rich.
They only run rich in the first minute or two after startup while running in open loop - it takes about that long for the O2 sensors to heat up enough to provide a reading and thus give feedback to go into closed loop tune, as well as achieve ~160F coolant temperature in the block. Secondary purpose is for the catalytic converter to light off but that is accomplished in about 15-20 seconds. Once the car is running in closed loop it will target 14.7:1 stoich ratio for a majority of cruising condition. Application of the throttle past a % open and increase in boost pressure from the turbo will result in a rich mixture. If going up a steep enough incline in a higher gear, producing a pretty decent load on the engine, I suppose it could run rich.

Really at the end of the day this should not be a complex issue for Honda to solve. If fuel dilution is substantial enough to raise the oil level, that is frankly a tremendous amount of fuel being dumped in the cylinder and getting past the rings. Modifying the tune should be able to address this, unless the injector nozzle design and combustion chamber design is so poor as to hinder atomization of the fuel in the CC. In which case that won't be a quick fix.

If you're ever curious, google a picture of GM LT1 V8 pistons - the shape of the crown of the piston is quite unique in design so as to help with DI atomization vs a more typical piston. Wonder what these 1.5L pistons look like.
There’s another very small part that plays a huge part in all this and it a knock sensor. It’s bolted to the block and listening for any kind of spark knock (denonation). Mfgs are scared to death of denonation, cracks piston, rings, pops head bolts, head gaskets and burns nasty holes in pistons. If it hears denonation and signals the ECU that it has, the ECU will retard the ignition timing a lot. When this happens the efficiently of the engine goes way down. Basically not burning the fuel completely. Inturn we use that right foot to give it even more fuel to make it do what we want, even that the engine already has enough fuel to do the job. So there’s even more fuel going it. When I bought my CRV I noticed it would kind of hesitate or just fall on its face when pulling off from a stop. First thought it was shifting to a higher ratio but finally realized it wasn’t the transmission shifting but just plain loosing power. Meantime I’d marked the dipstick and was watching the oil level. I posted the whole story back on page 7 of this thread. I’m not going to go through that story again but I’ve not had measurable fuel dilution since I switched to 93 octane fuel and the hesitation is gone. I’m over 12k miles now, about 3600 miles on the last oil change and the oil level hasn’t changed and the oil looks good. I really think Honda has built a great premium fuel engine but won admit it, just keep trying to market it to run on 87 octane. I “think” the dilution is happening every time you take off or accelerate because of the retarded ignition timing. That also means everyone may have a different amount depending on how spirited of a driver you are. Hard acceleration would make it dilute more and faster. All this is just my thoughts and from messing with this thing.
I would also like to thank everyone on this thread for just being nice and respectful to others. There are other forums that really get ugly which I think doesn’t make sense being we are all in the same boat.
I read your earlier post, so after my oil was last changed I started burning premium fuel. You mention 93 octane but I've only found 91 octane where I've been driving. I've kept track of the oil level and unfortunately after about 1800 miles since the oil change, the oil level is back up near the top of the orange piece again. So, premium doesn't seem to have helped mine. I've gone back to regular fuel after several tanks of premium. At present rate, I figure the oil level will once again be on the metal above the orange tip pretty soon. I don't plan to do anything because I figure that if Honda ever does start offering a fix, it will be on the owner to take the vehicle into the dealer to complain and document they have the problem with the oil level being abnormally high and smelling of fuel. I honestly don't believe they'll be able to fix my problem, but if they offer an extended warranty on engine parts I want to have that.
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NHRATA01
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by NHRATA01 »

I've kind of never been of the opinion that 87 is sufficient for all of these modern high specific output (ie high power levels from small displacement) engines running turbochargers despite the manufacturers saying it is ok. GM was using, maybe still does, the "premium recommended not required" caveat on some of their cars with the 2.0T.

It's worth noting the automakers have lobbied for a national standard octane gas (I think ~95) and eliminating the multiple grades. The higher octane enables them to meet CAFE mileage standards without the sales kick of telling the customer they have to buy expensive gas for their economy car.

I mean look, at the end of the day we now have 10 years+ of DI turbocharged cars out there, with that setup basically becoming ubiquitous for the average sedan and CUV, and while they have their challenges no one else seems to have fuel dilution issues. Honda was surprisingly (or maybe not considering their historic strength is high revving/high output small displacement naturally aspirated engines) a late adapter to moving to this type of powertrain. They had an old non-DI 2.0T I think in the first gen RDX which they moved to an N/A V6 in the 2nd gen. So this 1.5T is really their first use of a DI turbo 4, and sounds like they're having growing pains with it.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas dilution issue

Post by Maverick3320 »

researcher wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:39 am
dwickenh wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:35 am He has reached conclusions without contacting the company that warranties the vehicle for defects. There is a method to resolve
problems with vehicles through the manufacturer. He has decided to reach conclusions based on his opinion and information from
the internet that indicates the problem is a known problem with many vehicles that does not affect long term performance. I doubt the
internet is accurate, but there are many ways to approach this subject without suggesting no one purchase a Honda.

You don't have to agree with me, it is just my opinion as a Honda CRV owner.
In perusing the CRV forum over the last few months, there is a certain group of owners that wish to dismiss or silence any negative feedback.
They get very defensive if people post about problems/issues, suggesting that they keep quiet, or that the criticisms are unfounded.
I'm not sure if this is due to blind allegiance/loyalty to the brand, or a desire to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that no problems exist.

It appears you have reached conclusions without thoughtfully considering what the OP has written...
- He personally evaluated his vehicle and observed the issue. It does not take an engineering degree to diagnose. If you monitor the oil level, and find that it has magically risen (and smells of fuel), then it is clearly being diluted somehow.
- The issue is well-documented in the links provided. There is plenty of photographic evidence, including pictures of overfilled crankcases and documents from Honda dealers outlining the issue.
- The owner's manual clearly states that it is harmful for the oil to be overfilled. Owners have reported significant engine damage as a result.
- He mentioned in an earlier post that he intends to visit the dealer when he gets back home.

I am still unsure why you don't feel this information should be shared/posted.
Why do you feel he should quietly attempt to resolve the issue without discussing the problem?
+1
Lugerhead
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Lugerhead »

wasp09 wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:03 am If it is LSPI (low speed pre-igition, AKA the super knock found in turbo DI engines), it cannot be stopped by retarding the ignition timing since it is really not ignited by spark. the pre-ignition is caused by glowing particles left floating inside the cylinders at the intake cycle.

One counter measure is to give the engine a rich mixture. There would be no oxygen left after a power cycle so as to extinguish the floating particles. That may lead to dilution if overdone.

The other option is simply avoiding low rpm when taking a heavy load (i.e. transmission should downshift when we step on the gas). LSPI is less likely to happen at higher rpm.

Some engine oils claim that they can fight LSPI. Oil dilution itself definitely makes LSPI worse as the "oil" is more combustible.
I almost agree with you but I think combustion chamber temperature will cause spark knock. I’ve wrestled with this my whole life as a mechanic. Back in the day when a tune up included setting the ignition tming it was always tough. You could set it specs like 8 degrees btc and it might rattle like a box of rocks. Back it off 4 degrees and it would be happy. I think it goes back to if that engine is converting all the fuel it gets to actual power and the combustion chamber is just plain hotter. The only difference between reg and premium fuel is the additive in the premium that controls the flash point/rate of burn. A gallon of each will have the same chemical energy, but the 87 is more uncontrolled or wild. They are saying now there are cleaners and I guess some kind of snake oil in premium but I question all that.
Vavoline has a new Modern Engine Oil out that sounds like it may be the magic bullet. I don’t know but continue reading up on it. I use the A tripodometet as my maintenance minder for oil changes. I just reset Honda’s minder when I do a service and log it in their website. Still using Mobil1 but my try Vavoline’s mahic oil.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by wasp09 »

CULater wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 am ... I don't plan to do anything because I figure that if Honda ever does start offering a fix, it will be on the owner to take the vehicle into the dealer to complain and document they have the problem with the oil level being abnormally high and smelling of fuel. I honestly don't believe they'll be able to fix my problem, but if they offer an extended warranty on engine parts I want to have that.
These 2 TSBs (18-114 and 18-124) were posted in the crvclub forum:

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 67&o=OneUp

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 67&o=OneUp

According to the TSBs, affected customers should be notified.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Lugerhead »

CULater wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 am
Lugerhead wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:06 pm
NHRATA01 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:37 am
wasp09 wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:19 am We know that all engines use a rich mixture when they are cold.

Put an eye on heavy load conditions say, a loaded up CRV against a strong wind or uphill, after warm up. I wonder if the air fuel ratio would dip way below 14.6:1 as the CVT tends to keep the rpm low and put the engine in the LSPI region.

There was a post about dilution after go for a long trip on highway against the wind. If that happens, perhaps you should keep the scanner, slow down when the air fuel ratio becomes rich.
They only run rich in the first minute or two after startup while running in open loop - it takes about that long for the O2 sensors to heat up enough to provide a reading and thus give feedback to go into closed loop tune, as well as achieve ~160F coolant temperature in the block. Secondary purpose is for the catalytic converter to light off but that is accomplished in about 15-20 seconds. Once the car is running in closed loop it will target 14.7:1 stoich ratio for a majority of cruising condition. Application of the throttle past a % open and increase in boost pressure from the turbo will result in a rich mixture. If going up a steep enough incline in a higher gear, producing a pretty decent load on the engine, I suppose it could run rich.

Really at the end of the day this should not be a complex issue for Honda to solve. If fuel dilution is substantial enough to raise the oil level, that is frankly a tremendous amount of fuel being dumped in the cylinder and getting past the rings. Modifying the tune should be able to address this, unless the injector nozzle design and combustion chamber design is so poor as to hinder atomization of the fuel in the CC. In which case that won't be a quick fix.

If you're ever curious, google a picture of GM LT1 V8 pistons - the shape of the crown of the piston is quite unique in design so as to help with DI atomization vs a more typical piston. Wonder what these 1.5L pistons look like.
There’s another very small part that plays a huge part in all this and it a knock sensor. It’s bolted to the block and listening for any kind of spark knock (denonation). Mfgs are scared to death of denonation, cracks piston, rings, pops head bolts, head gaskets and burns nasty holes in pistons. If it hears denonation and signals the ECU that it has, the ECU will retard the ignition timing a lot. When this happens the efficiently of the engine goes way down. Basically not burning the fuel completely. Inturn we use that right foot to give it even more fuel to make it do what we want, even that the engine already has enough fuel to do the job. So there’s even more fuel going it. When I bought my CRV I noticed it would kind of hesitate or just fall on its face when pulling off from a stop. First thought it was shifting to a higher ratio but finally realized it wasn’t the transmission shifting but just plain loosing power. Meantime I’d marked the dipstick and was watching the oil level. I posted the whole story back on page 7 of this thread. I’m not going to go through that story again but I’ve not had measurable fuel dilution since I switched to 93 octane fuel and the hesitation is gone. I’m over 12k miles now, about 3600 miles on the last oil change and the oil level hasn’t changed and the oil looks good. I really think Honda has built a great premium fuel engine but won admit it, just keep trying to market it to run on 87 octane. I “think” the dilution is happening every time you take off or accelerate because of the retarded ignition timing. That also means everyone may have a different amount depending on how spirited of a driver you are. Hard acceleration would make it dilute more and faster. All this is just my thoughts and from messing with this thing.
I would also like to thank everyone on this thread for just being nice and respectful to others. There are other forums that really get ugly which I think doesn’t make sense being we are all in the same boat.
I read your earlier post, so after my oil was last changed I started burning premium fuel. You mention 93 octane but I've only found 91 octane where I've been driving. I've kept track of the oil level and unfortunately after about 1800 miles since the oil change, the oil level is back up near the top of the orange piece again. So, premium doesn't seem to have helped mine. I've gone back to regular fuel after several tanks of premium. At present rate, I figure the oil level will once again be on the metal above the orange tip pretty soon. I don't plan to do anything because I figure that if Honda ever does start offering a fix, it will be on the owner to take the vehicle into the dealer to complain and document they have the problem with the oil level being abnormally high and smelling of fuel. I honestly don't believe they'll be able to fix my problem, but if they offer an extended warranty on engine parts I want to have that.
I’m really sorry it didn’t help yours. Guess I lead you down a rabbit hole but mine has been fine since I changed. I’m not even going to sample the next oil change because the oil looks that good. I have about 600 miles left on this change so maybe I’ll have more information after running it through the winter. You have had a rough time with yours and I hate it for you. I’ve really lost all respect for Honda on this mess but on the other hand love this vehicle.
On my octane rating, we have three grades here 87,89 and 93.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

wasp09 wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:07 pm
CULater wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 am ... I don't plan to do anything because I figure that if Honda ever does start offering a fix, it will be on the owner to take the vehicle into the dealer to complain and document they have the problem with the oil level being abnormally high and smelling of fuel. I honestly don't believe they'll be able to fix my problem, but if they offer an extended warranty on engine parts I want to have that.
These 2 TSBs (18-114 and 18-124) were posted in the crvclub forum:

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 67&o=OneUp

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 67&o=OneUp

According to the TSBs, affected customers should be notified.
Thanks for the info. I don't see that these TSBs have anything to do with oil dilution. Refers to "drivability issues". Oh Well.
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wasp09
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by wasp09 »

Those were posted under the oil dilution threads on CRV owners club. It is hard to admit there are defects, they call them TSBs. :shock:
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

Upon further reading of the CRVOwners thread, I see that the TSBs include the elements of the "fix" that have been reported for the fuel dilution issue. However, Honda has scrupulously avoided mentioning anything like that in the TSB, which is just a further example of their obfuscation and denial of the problem, IMO.

I also note the the fix is VIN-specific. If your VIN isn't included in the list of eligible vehicles, you won't get it even if you have the problem. I sincerely hope that I'm not in that category but wouldn't be surprised if I am.

Honda has made an absolute mess of addressing this issue with integrity and seem to still be doing that.
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dsb012
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by dsb012 »

Here's the latest from Consumer Reports:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rep ... out-plans/

Looks like the fix in the US will only be available in certain states. I'm a long time Honda buyer, the CRV was the top of my list for my next car. As a resident of the state of VA I won't be taking any chances and will be moving to a different manufacturer.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

Thanks for the link to updated information from Consumer Reports. We see that Honda will be trickling out the fix to owners, so we can expect to be dealing with the problem for quite some time yet. Here's what CR had to say, which pretty much summarizes my thoughts. They are doing their best to lose customers. I hope there are some class-action lawsuits getting underway and I'll be contacted to join that effort.
Consumer Reports' car safety experts say that while the measures Honda are taking are in the right direction, they don't go far enough. "While it makes sense to prioritize repairs by risk level, a lower-risk region still isn't risk-free, and Honda leaves out far too many consumers who've reported this problem,” says David Friedman, vice president of advocacy for Consumer Reports.

“The company has a responsibility to provide data backing up why people in other states aren't being included, and also needs to clearly demonstrate why—if vehicles are stalling as some owners say—this is not a safety issue requiring an official recall."
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ndlex
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by ndlex »

This latest news about Honda doing cold weather states first just means they are unsure about the fix. This isn't good at all.

I'm really glad I passed on buying the 2018 CRV.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Will 82 »

So now being a PA resident I'm looking at January or February until there is a "fix"?

Getting rid of my Tacoma for this was a huge mistake. :oops:
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

More information on proposed fix for oil dilution in U.S. vehicles. Noteworthy items are that Honda seems to have limited the problem to cold weather driving conditions and the fix is purposed to heat the engine up more quickly. It appears that Honda will not offer the fix or will delay the fix to owners in many states they deem ineligible. So good luck to all you folks not living in the Northern latitudes! Many of us believe this is a "fake fix" that will not adequately remediate their defective 1.5T engine. They claim the 2019 engines will be "fixed" before they hit the market. If you believe them and buy one of these, I'm selling a bridge in NY that I'd like to talk to you about.
According to Honda, 2019 CR-Vs will be repaired before they are sold to the public, but details are slim about possible repairs for CR-V owners outside the 21 named states. In addition, Honda hasn't announced plans to repair Civics in the U.S.

Additionally, Honda hasn't said if U.S. customers will be offered warranty extensions similar to what Canadian customers are receiving.

The automaker believes the updates will allow the engines to warm up faster and improve fuel combustion, thereby reducing the oil dilution problems.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... -fix.shtml
"Vehicles in states with warmer temperatures and vehicles that travel longer distances regularly should not be experiencing abnormal oil dilution," Honda spokesman Chris Martin told Cars.com in an email. "Some variation in oil level over time is normal for direct-injected engines, even at warmer temperatures."
https://www.cars.com/articles/honda-cr- ... 03403599/

Memo to Chris: "I drive my CRV in Arizona usually on long interstate trips. Thank you for pointing out that the quart of so of fuel in my oil is not abnormal"
Last edited by CULater on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Why so cynical? I'd wonder if you'd be willing to trade the bridge you mention for some oceanfront property I'm thinking of selling in Iowa.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

So, I find myself wondering what position an owner who bought a CRV in Wisconsin but is snowbirding in Arizona will be in when the "fix" is due in December. At this point, Honda hasn't said if they will notify owners of defective vehicles bought in targeted states that the fix is available or whether they have to stumble into a dealer somewhere and complain that they have oil dilution (if they even know they do). Secondly, if they happen to be in a blacklisted state such as Arizona, Texas, Florida, Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri, Kansas, New Mexico, California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Tennessee, Connecticut, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, Louisiana, Kentucky, Arkansas, Wyoming, or one of the other 29 will the dealers there even be able to provide the fix or know anything about it? Or could an owner from one of those states drive his/her defective vehicle to one of the targeted states and get their vehicle fixed there? This whole thing is ridiculous isn't it HONDA? Just recall these Lemons and fix all of them.
Last edited by CULater on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Horsefly »

So Colorado is not considered a "cold weather" state? That will come as a shock to some of the ski areas here that have snow from late October through June....
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Horsefly wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:07 pm So Colorado is not considered a "cold weather" state? That will come as a shock to some of the ski areas here that have snow from late October through June....
Well, Colorado isn't included because states starting with "C" are specifically excluded. Note Connecticut, which gets slightly more snow than Florida.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Horsefly »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:16 pm
Horsefly wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:07 pm So Colorado is not considered a "cold weather" state? That will come as a shock to some of the ski areas here that have snow from late October through June....
Well, Colorado isn't included because states starting with "C" are specifically excluded. Note Connecticut, which gets slightly more snow than Florida.
:beer
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by catalina355 »

CULater wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:54 am More information on proposed fix for oil dilution in U.S. vehicles. Noteworthy items are that Honda seems to have limited the problem to cold weather driving conditions and the fix is purposed to heat the engine up more quickly. It appears that Honda will not offer the fix or will delay the fix to owners in many states they deem ineligible. So good luck to all you folks not living in the Northern latitudes! Many of us believe this is a "fake fix" that will not adequately remediate their defective 1.5T engine. They claim the 2019 engines will be "fixed" before they hit the market. If you believe them and buy one of these, I'm selling a bridge in NY that I'd like to talk to you about.
According to Honda, 2019 CR-Vs will be repaired before they are sold to the public, but details are slim about possible repairs for CR-V owners outside the 21 named states. In addition, Honda hasn't announced plans to repair Civics in the U.S.

Additionally, Honda hasn't said if U.S. customers will be offered warranty extensions similar to what Canadian customers are receiving.

The automaker believes the updates will allow the engines to warm up faster and improve fuel combustion, thereby reducing the oil dilution problems.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018 ... -fix.shtml
"Vehicles in states with warmer temperatures and vehicles that travel longer distances regularly should not be experiencing abnormal oil dilution," Honda spokesman Chris Martin told Cars.com in an email. "Some variation in oil level over time is normal for direct-injected engines, even at warmer temperatures."
https://www.cars.com/articles/honda-cr- ... 03403599/

Memo to Chris: "I drive my CRV in Arizona usually on long interstate trips. Thank you for pointing out that the quart of so of fuel in my oil is not abnormal"
I need to buy a new car and was considering the CRV. No way I would buy the CRV now given Honda's response and the problems reported. Maybe DI engines are not ready from prime time. I wonder why Toyota is sticking with it Port Injection and DI engines?
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How widespread is the problem, really?

Post by wildthang888 »

One of the most frustrating aspects of the problem, is that Honda should already KNOW how widespread the problem is.

Most Honda owners most likely get their oil changed at a Honda dealership. Once Honda became aware that SOME engines were experiencing problems, they should have put out a confidential internal memo to their service departments, with special steps when changing oil on any of the small turbo engines:
- note oil level before starting
- note oil color and smell while changing the oil.
- record this information in a special Honda database for tracking potential issues

If Honda really cared about solving problems that owners report, they should be proactive in researching and tracking problems.

Currently, both Honda and CR report that "a tiny fraction" of CR-V 1.5T engines experience the problem. Perhaps a more accurate statement might be "a tiny fraction of CR-V owners have noticed or reported having the problem." After all, when one buys a new car, one ASSUMES that it is correctly made, and worry free. Yes, we SHOULD all be checking our oil level every time we fill our tank, but when is the last time you saw anyone with their hood raised at a gas station?

This is just common sense problem solving methodology: if you want to understand whether you have a problem, you have to start tracking real data, not depending on the users to notice and report the problem.

Who knows, maybe they are already doing this, and tracking the data in an uber-secret location, that only a privileged few in the company can access.

Back to my original statement, that Honda should already know.... maybe they do, and that's why they are so tight lipped about it.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Lugerhead »

NHRATA01 wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:04 am I've kind of never been of the opinion that 87 is sufficient for all of these modern high specific output (ie high power levels from small displacement) engines running turbochargers despite the manufacturers saying it is ok. GM was using, maybe still does, the "premium recommended not required" caveat on some of their cars with the 2.0T.

It's worth noting the automakers have lobbied for a national standard octane gas (I think ~95) and eliminating the multiple grades. The higher octane enables them to meet CAFE mileage standards without the sales kick of telling the customer they have to buy expensive gas for their economy car.

I mean look, at the end of the day we now have 10 years+ of DI turbocharged cars out there, with that setup basically becoming ubiquitous for the average sedan and CUV, and while they have their challenges no one else seems to have fuel dilution issues. Honda was surprisingly (or maybe not considering their historic strength is high revving/high output small displacement naturally aspirated engines) a late adapter to moving to this type of powertrain. They had an old non-DI 2.0T I think in the first gen RDX which they moved to an N/A V6 in the 2nd gen. So this 1.5T is really their first use of a DI turbo 4, and sounds like they're having growing pains with it.
I agree with you and just maybe Honda has released this engine before there was a fuel to use in it.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 100716174/

This is just one article on the need for higher octane fuels for these newer high efficient engines. I’ve found a local station that sales 100 octane unleaded fuel. Going run a couple of tanks when I get back in town just to compare the fuel mileage between 93 and 100 octane. Curious if there will as much mpg change as it was between 87 and 93 octane.
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Re: How widespread is the problem, really?

Post by CULater »

wildthang888 wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:16 pm One of the most frustrating aspects of the problem, is that Honda should already KNOW how widespread the problem is.

Most Honda owners most likely get their oil changed at a Honda dealership. Once Honda became aware that SOME engines were experiencing problems, they should have put out a confidential internal memo to their service departments, with special steps when changing oil on any of the small turbo engines:
- note oil level before starting
- note oil color and smell while changing the oil.
- record this information in a special Honda database for tracking potential issues

If Honda really cared about solving problems that owners report, they should be proactive in researching and tracking problems.

Currently, both Honda and CR report that "a tiny fraction" of CR-V 1.5T engines experience the problem. Perhaps a more accurate statement might be "a tiny fraction of CR-V owners have noticed or reported having the problem." After all, when one buys a new car, one ASSUMES that it is correctly made, and worry free. Yes, we SHOULD all be checking our oil level every time we fill our tank, but when is the last time you saw anyone with their hood raised at a gas station?

This is just common sense problem solving methodology: if you want to understand whether you have a problem, you have to start tracking real data, not depending on the users to notice and report the problem.

Who knows, maybe they are already doing this, and tracking the data in an uber-secret location, that only a privileged few in the company can access.

Back to my original statement, that Honda should already know.... maybe they do, and that's why they are so tight lipped about it.
:thumbsup Couldn't agree more. I've taken my CRV into two different dealerships to have the oil inspected and changed. I specifically complained about the high oil level and gasoline smell in the oil. I expected them to document the high oil level reading on the dipstick and wanted that noted in the service report. In every instance, this was not done and was ignored. Based on my experience, I would suggest that if you have this problem that you document it with photos and note the measurement of the oil level above full on the back of the photo with date. It wouldn't hurt to have an independent mechanic look at it and document it as well. When you take it to the dealer, you'll have to strongly demand that they measure the overage before changing the oil and that it is documented in your service report. Otherwise, they just won't do it -- and they may not do it even though you insist. It's frustrating to when dealers either ignore your concern or deliberately fail to document it. You must have this data in order to pursue a remedy - either the "fix", lemon law, or class-action claim against Honda. Honda is going to put it on you to substantiate the problem before they will lift a finger. It sounds like you'll have to do this even to get the "fix" they have promised, especially if you are in the majority of the states where they are not planning on offering the fix at all. They do NOT want to collect data or have data reported on this issue, so don't expect them to be proactive.
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zaplunken
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by zaplunken »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:16 pm
Horsefly wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:07 pm So Colorado is not considered a "cold weather" state? That will come as a shock to some of the ski areas here that have snow from late October through June....
Well, Colorado isn't included because states starting with "C" are specifically excluded. Note Connecticut, which gets slightly more snow than Florida.
I don't know if that is mean to be funny or if you actually think that? :shock: I hope it is the former and not the latter! I assure you Connecticut gets plenty of snow though if you live along Long Island Sound it is much milder than inland. 60" is the average snowfall, I doubt Florida gets 6" on average in the northern most part of the state.
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JPH
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Re: How widespread is the problem, really?

Post by JPH »

CULater wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:56 am :thumbsup Couldn't agree more. I've taken my CRV into two different dealerships to have the oil inspected and changed. I specifically complained about the high oil level and gasoline smell in the oil. I expected them to document the high oil level reading on the dipstick and wanted that noted in the service report. In every instance, this was not done and was ignored.
How did you make the appointment for service? I scheduled my appointment online through the dealer's website. There was a section there to state the reason for needing service. I entered all the details of the problem, including the fact that I had confirmed the problem by independent outside oil analysis. When they printed out my receipt for the inspection and oil change, my original statement appeared at the top. That pretty much forced them to respond directly to the complaint in writing. Your dealerships might use a different method.
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CULater
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Re: How widespread is the problem, really?

Post by CULater »

JPH wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:49 am
CULater wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:56 am :thumbsup Couldn't agree more. I've taken my CRV into two different dealerships to have the oil inspected and changed. I specifically complained about the high oil level and gasoline smell in the oil. I expected them to document the high oil level reading on the dipstick and wanted that noted in the service report. In every instance, this was not done and was ignored.
How did you make the appointment for service? I scheduled my appointment online through the dealer's website. There was a section there to state the reason for needing service. I entered all the details of the problem, including the fact that I had confirmed the problem by independent outside oil analysis. When they printed out my receipt for the inspection and oil change, my original statement appeared at the top. That pretty much forced them to respond directly to the complaint in writing. Your dealerships might use a different method.
Appreciate that information. I just scheduled a service appointment and explained the problem when I got there. I checked and the dealer does offer online service scheduling with a place to enter text regarding the reason for service. I will use that from now on and see how that goes.
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
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