Whole House Natural Gas Generator

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Shikoku
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Shikoku »

CurlyDave wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:41 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:49 am
A warm 18 Degrees on the back porch this morning. My Hawaiian Blood is curdling. :shock:
I'd be worried about pipes freezing if the power went out.
New to this climate.
Is this a concern?
j
Pipes will freeze at 32 degrees, so you are right, it is a concern.

If the pipes are PEX, freezing will not hurt them. All other types (pvc, iron or copper) can burst if they freeze.

If you look at your insurance policy, most of them exclude water damage from burst pipes unless heat is maintained at 50 or 55 degrees in the building. They know something.
To be precise, water in pipe will not freeze at 32 degrees F.

"In research tests at the University of Illinois, water pipes placed in an unheated, insulated attic consistently started forming ice when the outdoor temperature dipped just below 20 degrees F. The 20 degrees F threshold is primarily for homes in the south and other areas where freezing may occur only once or twice a season." Source: http://disastersafety.org/wp-content/up ... s_IBHS.pdf

In addition, I think water in pipe will not freeze at 32 degrees F because of freezing-point depression due to impurities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression
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emoore
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by emoore »

I would think in 10 to 15 years the most common backup would be batteries. No fuel needed and more can be added as needed. I would bet in 10years they will be cheap enough to get 50 or 100 kWh or more.
CurlyDave
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by CurlyDave »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:39 pm ...It is a huge panel that is packed tight. I do have lots of space around it so I think the Transfer Panel will be fine. Not sure of where to locate the generator receptacle plug in. Is there a limit to how long the power chord can be that goes from the generator to the panel receptacle. (may not be correct terms). ????

I may be putting in an very large enclosed patio area around the home and have a lot of space on the opposite side of the house. I could put in an automatic generator later on, on that side of the house. (opposite the breaker panel).My underground propane tank is also on that side so it would be convenient to power the generator. I wonder how much trouble it would be to get a power feed from that end of the house, over the garage probably, and to the transfer panel. It would be a long long run.

The OP's post on a whole house gas generator has got me thinking.

Thoughts?
ps: more concerned about logistics than cost.
j
If you have a manual connection, the usual sequence of events is that you must first disconnect the transfer panel from the grid, start the generator and then throw a breaker back at the transfer panel to get power into the house. That is a fair amount of back and forth if the generator and transfer panel are on opposite sides of the house. Power seldom goes out at high noon in the middle of July. It is more often at night in the middle of a blizzard.

I would consider running a propane line to a spot near the transfer panel. Or, if you don't mind the walking back and forth, hard wire the generator plug in near where it will be located. Typical flex cord length is 6 feet.

Generators in this size range are frequently electric start. There is a small (garden tractor or motorcycle size) lead acid battery, which is recharged when the generator is running. I keep a battery maintainer, plugged into the power grid on mine so I am certain it will start when I need it. The battery will self-discharge when it is not running otherwise.

Even though my generator has wheels and is "portable" I permanently keep it in a shed. I leave the door and window open and have fans running from the generator power to provide cooling when the generator is operating.

If you want to keep it in the garage and wheel it out when you need it, a 3' x 5' folding plastic table makes a dandy temporary "roof" to keep rain and snow off the generator. But, good luck wheeling it out when you have a foot of snow on the ground, and that is exactly when you are most likely to need it.
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2tall4economy
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by 2tall4economy »

spend similar money to a gene set and go solar. better Roi and similar investment. Plus you can feel warm and fuzzy if you choose. Add some powerwalls if you are in a place that has them(lucky) and go off grid and flip a bird to the man.
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littlebird
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by littlebird »

I don't think it increases the value of a home, because most people aren't interested in it, but if I had natural gas in my area, a generator like that would be the one luxury I'd be happy to spend 10K on. More appealing to me than s.s. appliances, granite countertops and high ceilings. And we rarely get power failures since our underground power lines were replaced several years ago. But just one prolonged power failure during one of our 110 degree summer months could be life-altering. I'm a survivor of a 9 day power outage in mild weather in the northeast several decades ago, and I wouldn't want to repeat it at my current age.
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dm200
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by dm200 »

Folks we know on the next street installed one of these. I cannot recall the cost, but it seemed like quite a bit. If you have (especially use) natural gas, there are fewer safety and fuel storage issues/risks. Several years ago, we lost power for several days (heat of the summer) and it was terrible. Going to a hotel/motel is often not possible because they fill up quickly.

I suspect (not 100% sure) such a setup would last for many, many years as well.

My guess is that to get some degree of "value" or "return" if you sell, you would need:
1. Excellent sales/marketing of the house to a niche that would value it
2. Other features of the house tht would appeal to a niche that would value the generator, such as for a disabled person dependent on power
3. A certain neighborhood and overall price range.
UALflyer
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by UALflyer »

2tall4economy wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:35 am spend similar money to a gene set and go solar. better Roi and similar investment. Plus you can feel warm and fuzzy if you choose. Add some powerwalls if you are in a place that has them(lucky) and go off grid and flip a bird to the man.
Assuming that solar is even an option to a person (roof orientation, shade and climate may cause it not to be an option), it's not exactly an alternative to a generator. People get a generator so that they have power during things like major storms, which are also the times that solar is not going to be generating much, if any, electricity.

Standby generators provide a virtual guarantee that you will always have power. I love solar, but you can't get anything even close to that with solar.
PhilosophyAndrew
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by PhilosophyAndrew »

Like others, I do not view my whole-house generator as increasing the value of my home. Perhaps it could be marketed as an attractive feature, although some prospective buyers might view it as an unwanted or unsightly

We live in the woods with well water, electric heat, and sump pump. After a second week-long power outage, we decided to spend approximately $12k for a propane system (all-in, including generator and installations, propane tank and associates work, and electrical work). It has worked great over the past five years and my normally frugal spouse cites it as the best money we’ve spent on the house.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

PhilosophyAndrew wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:28 am Like others, I do not view my whole-house generator as increasing the value of my home. Perhaps it could be marketed as an attractive feature, although some prospective buyers might view it as an unwanted or unsightly

We live in the woods with well water, electric heat, and sump pump. After a second week-long power outage, we decided to spend approximately $12k for a propane system (all-in, including generator and installations, propane tank and associates work, and electrical work). It has worked great over the past five years and my normally frugal spouse cites it as the best money we’ve spent on the house.
This is good information. Thanks.

We were also thinking of solar and backup batteries for the inverter but the long term costs of a battery bank large enough to power the house, even partially, and the 220v well system seems prohibitive.

Also rural, in a mini McRanch area. Our concern is powering the well so the horses have water, and also the blower for the gas furnace system to keep the house warm in case it is 18 degrees outside in winter so the pipes don't freeze. Finally, the refrigerators so food doesn't spoil.

We're on a 500 gal underground propane tank.
Would you consider installing a second tank to bring capacity to 1000 overkill?
Of the 12K you spent, how much of it was for the generator?

thanks again,
j
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Sandtrap
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

littlebird wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:25 am I don't think it increases the value of a home, because most people aren't interested in it, but if I had natural gas in my area, a generator like that would be the one luxury I'd be happy to spend 10K on. More appealing to me than s.s. appliances, granite countertops and high ceilings. And we rarely get power failures since our underground power lines were replaced several years ago. But just one prolonged power failure during one of our 110 degree summer months could be life-altering. I'm a survivor of a 9 day power outage in mild weather in the northeast several decades ago, and I wouldn't want to repeat it at my current age.
Agreed. Over 120+ this past summer in Phoenix. Though normally 20 degrees cooler in mile high Prescott.
You bring up "current age". Which has me thinking of a longer term plan for an automatic whole house generator even if I went with a Transfer Panel and portable generator now. Messing with something heavy and also the added logistics of hookup, etc, is a consideration as others have pointed out. Power seems to go out when the body does not want to go outside nor do athletic things.
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tcassette
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by tcassette »

PhilosophyAndrew wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:28 am Like others, I do not view my whole-house generator as increasing the value of my home. Perhaps it could be marketed as an attractive feature, although some prospective buyers might view it as an unwanted or unsightly

We live in the woods with well water, electric heat, and sump pump. After a second week-long power outage, we decided to spend approximately $12k for a propane system (all-in, including generator and installations, propane tank and associates work, and electrical work). It has worked great over the past five years and my normally frugal spouse cites it as the best money we’ve spent on the house.
+1. We are in a rural area with well water and heat pump. After a series of outages soon after moving in, I started considering generators. I quickly went from a gasoline powered portable solution to a propane whole house generator. The extra cost when amortized over years seems minimal compared to the capability, convenience and reliability. Automatic periodic testing, automatic start and stop, automatic power transfer, and the ability to power everything including the HVAC were the big selling points. We ended up with a 24Kv Generac for about $10K installed with 500 gallon propane tank and fuel. Every time we have an outage, the system works flawlessly and we consider it a great investment. I think it increases the value of the house marginally, much more than something like a swimming pool.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by pshonore »

If you're having an LP tank installed, be sure that you buy the tank. In CT, some dealers will lease you a tank which means only that dealer can fill and service it; you won't be able to shop for the supplier with the lowest price.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

littlebird wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:25 am<Snip...>And we rarely get power failures since our underground power lines were replaced several years ago.
Folks often cite underground supply lines as taking care of things, but they really don't. Unless you have underground utilities from the source (e.g. the electric sub-station), you can still have problems.

In our area, between four different developments with a total of around 400 homes, all the utilities are underground. Our two-day outage was the result of a 50 foot evergreen tree being blown over in 60 mph winds and taking down the main supply line feed, less than a half-mile from the sub-station to our developments.

Rarely are main supply lines run underground, with the exception of large metro (city) areas.

FWIW,

- Ron
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Sandtrap
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

tcassette wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:32 am
PhilosophyAndrew wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:28 am Like others, I do not view my whole-house generator as increasing the value of my home. Perhaps it could be marketed as an attractive feature, although some prospective buyers might view it as an unwanted or unsightly

We live in the woods with well water, electric heat, and sump pump. After a second week-long power outage, we decided to spend approximately $12k for a propane system (all-in, including generator and installations, propane tank and associates work, and electrical work). It has worked great over the past five years and my normally frugal spouse cites it as the best money we’ve spent on the house.
+1. We are in a rural area with well water and heat pump. After a series of outages soon after moving in, I started considering generators. I quickly went from a gasoline powered portable solution to a propane whole house generator. The extra cost when amortized over years seems minimal compared to the capability, convenience and reliability. Automatic periodic testing, automatic start and stop, automatic power transfer, and the ability to power everything including the HVAC were the big selling points. We ended up with a 24Kv Generac for about $10K installed with 500 gallon propane tank and fuel. Every time we have an outage, the system works flawlessly and we consider it a great investment. I think it increases the value of the house marginally, much more than something like a swimming pool.
Great info.
Is the "automatic testing" something you have to do or happens all by itself?
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Sandtrap
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

Ron wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:11 am
littlebird wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:25 am<Snip...>And we rarely get power failures since our underground power lines were replaced several years ago.
Folks often cite underground supply lines as taking care of things, but they really don't. Unless you have underground utilities from the source (e.g. the electric sub-station), you can still have problems.

In our area, between four different developments with a total of around 400 homes, all the utilities are underground. Our two-day outage was the result of a 50 foot evergreen tree being blown over in 60 mph winds and taking down the main supply line feed, less than a half-mile from the sub-station to our developments.

Rarely are main supply lines run underground, with the exception of large metro (city) areas.

FWIW,

- Ron
All of our utilities are underground. Outages usually happen during summer monsoon thunderstorms. Maybe the ground get's saturated. Dunno.
j
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:12 amIs the "automatic testing" something you have to do or happens all by itself?
Technically, it happens by itself. You set up the day of the week and the time via the gen-set's control panel and it starts/runs/shutdowns by itself, usually running about 10 minutes at low speed in order to check out the battery, lube the seals, and check the output. It is not connected to your home panel at this time.

If anything fails, it will shutdown and give you a message of the reason for the failure (although not always correct - more later :annoyed ). I have mine set up to run at 8 a.m. every Monday. I don't do it earlier since I don't want to wake anybody up, although the unit is fairly quiet; much more so than the portable units that were running in my neighborhood this weekend, and it's the beginning of the normal workweek for my HVAC folks, who installed/maintain the unit.

As to the message, it's not always clear to the problem vs. the message. In my case, the genset came on 4:30 Friday afternoon when we lost power. My intention was to do a manual shutdown 24-hours later to check the oil level, as suggested by the manufacturer (check every 24 hours of continuous running).

However, it shutdown with a "low engine speed" message at 8 a.m. Saturday morning. When I went out to check what the problem could be, I found that it was low on oil (the oil pressure switch caused the shutdown - as it was designed to do). I added oil to the proper full level, hit the "auto" switch, and it started right up and came online.

Thinking back, the problem was caused by me. I had failed to check the oil pressure since the last maintenance cycle was done, last June. While the weekly test only runs 10 minutes, the accumulated run time over the last 8+ months was over five hours. Those intermittent run times, along with some small outages since last year had contributed to the low oil level. I'm glad the unit is smarter than I am 8-) ...

Anyway, since I now know I need to check it more often, I'll stay on top of it. In fact, I'm about to check the level now since they are calling for 12+ inches of snow, starting this evening (and a lot of folks in the area don't even have their electric service restored from Friday :shock: ...

- Ron
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

Ron wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:36 am
Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:12 amIs the "automatic testing" something you have to do or happens all by itself?
Technically, it happens by itself. You set up the day of the week and the time via the gen-set's control panel and it starts/runs/shutdowns by itself, usually running about 10 minutes at low speed in order to check out the battery, lube the seals, and check the output. It is not connected to your home panel at this time.

If anything fails, it will shutdown and give you a message of the reason for the failure (although not always correct - more later :annoyed ). I have mine set up to run at 8 a.m. every Monday. I don't do it earlier since I don't want to wake anybody up, although the unit is fairly quiet; much more so than the portable units that were running in my neighborhood this weekend, and it's the beginning of the normal workweek for my HVAC folks, who installed/maintain the unit.

As to the message, it's not always clear to the problem vs. the message. In my case, the genset came on 4:30 Friday afternoon when we lost power. My intention was to do a manual shutdown 24-hours later to check the oil level, as suggested by the manufacturer (check every 24 hours of continuous running).

However, it shutdown with a "low engine speed" message at 8 a.m. Saturday morning. When I went out to check what the problem could be, I found that it was low on oil (the oil pressure switch caused the shutdown - as it was designed to do). I added oil to the proper full level, hit the "auto" switch, and it started right up and came online.

Thinking back, the problem was caused by me. I had failed to check the oil pressure since the last maintenance cycle was done, last June. While the weekly test only runs 10 minutes, the accumulated run time over the last 8+ months was over five hours. Those intermittent run times, along with some small outages since last year had contributed to the low oil level. I'm glad the unit is smarter than I am 8-) ...

Anyway, since I now know I need to check it more often, I'll stay on top of it. In fact, I'm about to check the level now since they are calling for 12+ inches of snow, starting this evening (and a lot of folks in the area don't even have their electric service restored from Friday :shock: ...

- Ron
Gosh. Thanks Ron. This is great stuff.
Not to hijack the thread but I think all of this is relevant for future readers to lean the thought process and logistics.
1 Why does it need so much oil?
2 Do you have to have maintenance folks check this thing annually or such or is it as trouble free as a home HVAC system?
3 Are there any running costs to upkeep this thing?
4 Does it generate "fumes" like car exhaust to be concerned about?
thanks,
jim
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:41 am Gosh. Thanks Ron. This is great stuff.
Not to hijack the thread but I think all of this is relevant for future readers to lean the thought process and logistics.
1 Why does it need so much oil?
2 Do you have to have maintenance folks check this thing annually or such or is it as trouble free as a home HVAC system?
3 Are there any running costs to upkeep this thing?
4 Does it generate "fumes" like car exhaust to be concerned about?
thanks,
jim
1. The crankcase of the 999 CC V-2 engine (think of a Harley Sportster, except rather than the 883 CC base engine, the power plant in my genset is 999 CC) holds a little under 2 quarts of oil. Would you not check your oil if you were riding your Harley for 24 hours straight (let alone re-arranging your seating :D ). It doesn't really use much oil in that time period - not more than a few oz. However, since the dipstick oil marks (low/full) are just about an inch, it is within tight oil level limits.

If you go with a bigger unit (beyond 22 Kva), you're generally talking about a water cooled engine (a 4-cyl compact car engine) that has all the requirements of a car. That is you have a radiator (along with antifreeze), v-belts and all the maintenance required. One plus with a water cooled unit is that it runs slower (less RPM) and generates less sound. However, I must say that the eight units running in my neighborhood over the weekend could not be heard over the multitude of portable units that a lot of folks were running. BTW, the engine on my genset exhausts through an automotive style/size muffler which, along with the other sound insulation, greatly reduces the running sound.

2. I do have the selling dealer (who handles both Generac and Kohler gensets) who happens to also be my HVAC contractor perform annual maintenance. Unlike a lot of folks, I have a maintenance contract that covers an annual visit for the genset along with two visits for my heat pump. I know a lot of folks skip the maintenance on their HVAC systems (regardless of fuel source) but I've always gone with a bit more maintenance to ensure everything is running properly without the concern of possible future problems. Sort of like going to your dentist every 6 months - regardless if you really need too. Like I noted before, I'm a belt/suspenders kind of guy :oops: ...

If you want to do your own annual maintenance, it will run you around $30 for the oil & air filter, along with two spark plugs and the two quarts of (synthetic) oil. BTW, the first annual on a Generac requires the valve lash to be adjusted (after burn in). It doesn't normally have to be done again unless your unit starts running rough and you have loss of engine power. The advantage to Kohler gensets is that they use hydraulic valve lifters that don't need to be adjusted but just like a car, they can go bad and (rarely) need to be replaced.

3. Running costs? Nothing really, other than the price of fuel for normal weekly exercise cycles. If you have natural gas in your home, it's just a slight increase to your monthly bill. If you have propane (like I do), it all depends on how often you refill/top off the tank. I had my initial fill done of my 500 gal underground propane tank done five years ago. Since that time counting the weekly test cycles along with some outages (a few minutes to a few hours), along with the 45 hour outage this past weekend, the gauge has gone down 20% (from 90% to 70% full). That's around 100 gals. of propane; at $2.50 gal (it's cheaper at the end of summer when there's an overabundance of propane available due to the refining process), it comes out to $250 total for the five year period. Of course, the more you use, the more you pay. And the more you use it, the happier you will be that you made the "investment" on this luxury item :twisted: ...

4. As far as fumes, it's like running your car in your driveway with the garage doors closed. Yes, there are fumes but it's something you have with any internal combustion engine be it a lawnmower or your car. Can you smell it? Sure. Does it dissipate quickly? It all depends on the winds. Most importantly, can I smell it in our house with the genset running? Of course not.

- Ron
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by littlebird »

Ron wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:11 am
littlebird wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:25 am<Snip...>And we rarely get power failures since our underground power lines were replaced several years ago.
Folks often cite underground supply lines as taking care of things, but they really don't. Unless you have underground utilities from the source (e.g. the electric sub-station), you can still have problems.

In our area, between four different developments with a total of around 400 homes, all the utilities are underground. Our two-day outage was the result of a 50 foot evergreen tree being blown over in 60 mph winds and taking down the main supply line feed, less than a half-mile from the sub-station to our developments.

Rarely are main supply lines run underground, with the exception of large metro (city) areas.
- Ron
We've had underground lines since our development was built 40 years ago, but about 10 years ago, the underground lines were found to be deteriorating. The utility claims they were promised 50 years of usable life by the now defunct supplier, but they only lasted 30 years or so. Now we have new underground lines and haven't had an outage worth mentioning since. And yes, our transmission lines come down from the north above (very far above) ground until the immediate development.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

Ron wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:05 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:41 am Gosh. Thanks Ron. This is great stuff.
Not to hijack the thread but I think all of this is relevant for future readers to lean the thought process and logistics.
1 Why does it need so much oil?
2 Do you have to have maintenance folks check this thing annually or such or is it as trouble free as a home HVAC system?
3 Are there any running costs to upkeep this thing?
4 Does it generate "fumes" like car exhaust to be concerned about?
thanks,
jim
1. The crankcase of the 999 CC V-2 engine (think of a Harley Sportster, except rather than the 883 CC base engine, the power plant in my genset is 999 CC) holds a little under 2 quarts of oil. Would you not check your oil if you were riding your Harley for 24 hours straight (let alone re-arranging your seating :D ). It doesn't really use much oil in that time period - not more than a few oz. However, since the dipstick oil marks (low/full) are just about an inch, it is within tight oil level limits.

If you go with a bigger unit (beyond 22 Kva), you're generally talking about a water cooled engine (a 4-cyl compact car engine) that has all the requirements of a car. That is you have a radiator (along with antifreeze), v-belts and all the maintenance required. One plus with a water cooled unit is that it runs slower (less RPM) and generates less sound. However, I must say that the eight units running in my neighborhood over the weekend could not be heard over the multitude of portable units that a lot of folks were running. BTW, the engine on my genset exhausts through an automotive style/size muffler which, along with the other sound insulation, greatly reduces the running sound.

2. I do have the selling dealer (who handles both Generac and Kohler gensets) who happens to also be my HVAC contractor perform annual maintenance. Unlike a lot of folks, I have a maintenance contract that covers an annual visit for the genset along with two visits for my heat pump. I know a lot of folks skip the maintenance on their HVAC systems (regardless of fuel source) but I've always gone with a bit more maintenance to ensure everything is running properly without the concern of possible future problems. Sort of like going to your dentist every 6 months - regardless if you really need too. Like I noted before, I'm a belt/suspenders kind of guy :oops: ...

If you want to do your own annual maintenance, it will run you around $30 for the oil & air filter, along with two spark plugs and the two quarts of (synthetic) oil. BTW, the first annual on a Generac requires the valve lash to be adjusted (after burn in). It doesn't normally have to be done again unless your unit starts running rough and you have loss of engine power. The advantage to Kohler gensets is that they use hydraulic valve lifters that don't need to be adjusted but just like a car, they can go bad and (rarely) need to be replaced.

3. Running costs? Nothing really, other than the price of fuel for normal weekly exercise cycles. If you have natural gas in your home, it's just a slight increase to your monthly bill. If you have propane (like I do), it all depends on how often you refill/top off the tank. I had my initial fill done of my 500 gal underground propane tank done five years ago. Since that time counting the weekly test cycles along with some outages (a few minutes to a few hours), along with the 45 hour outage this past weekend, the gauge has gone down 20% (from 90% to 70% full). That's around 100 gals. of propane; at $2.50 gal (it's cheaper at the end of summer when there's an overabundance of propane available due to the refining process), it comes out to $250 total for the five year period. Of course, the more you use, the more you pay. And the more you use it, the happier you will be that you made the "investment" on this luxury item :twisted: ...

4. As far as fumes, it's like running your car in your driveway with the garage doors closed. Yes, there are fumes but it's something you have with any internal combustion engine be it a lawnmower or your car. Can you smell it? Sure. Does it dissipate quickly? It all depends on the winds. Most importantly, can I smell it in our house with the genset running? Of course not.

- Ron
You're a champ!
I've been sharing your info with DW and she's on board.
We have a 500 gal underground propane tank and am pondering adding another beside it for a larger backup capacity.
The water cooled unit seems to be vulnerable to freezing temperatures, though it will no doubt have antifreeze in it. I can see the advantages of air cooled as you point out.
I thought solid lifters were long gone with headers and a Hurst 4 speed. Hydraulic seems the way to go. That's inside info. Thanks.
I'd have to have an electrician properly size the unit to our home. I've done initial requirements but it would be good to have a double check. Our home is 3 stories and about 5000 sf. Plus barn, well, 3 seperate HVAC systems, etc, so perhaps it needs a higher capacity generator system.
Did your electrician do the size wattage requirements?
j
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FootballFan5548
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by FootballFan5548 »

Ron wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:36 am
sapphire96 wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:19 pmOut of curiosity, are you in the Poconos/NE PA?
Yes...

- Ron

I was just in Kalihari Water Park in the Poconos this past Friday during the big storm. The drive on 611, 80, and 380 was as intense and scary as anything I've ever done. Absolute white out conditions, trucks jackknifing and cars stalling/spinning out. Then, when we got to Kalihari the power went out in the resort, the backup generator failed, and we were trapped in a non-functioning water park resort for 24 hours, snowed in with no power at all. And I was with 2 young children, 3/8mos. What a mess.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by queso »

Ron posted a bunch of good info. The only thing I'll add is that it is a good idea to stockpile a few service kits for an extended outage. We have a Kohler and the maintenance interval is annual OR 150 hours. Granted, long outages are rare where we live, but it would only take a few days to hit 150 hours especially if the outage were toward the tail end of the annual maintenance cycle and it had run weekly for 15 minutes at a time plus one or two random outages during the year. With our Kohler (similar to Ron's - 999cc air cooled twin) the service kit is an air filter, 2 spark plugs, an oil filter and oil. I do the annual maintenance myself and keep 2-3 maintenance kits handy in case I need them in the event of an extended outage. I also keep a jug of distilled water to top up the battery, but that's no more frequent than a vehicle battery so not something you need to do regularly. I figure time spent wrenching on the generator doing annual maintenance is worth it in familiarity with the unit since it is likely to fail when we're using it/need it.

As others have pointed out, we didn't do it for resale value and honestly at this point we don't care if it adds a dollar to the resale value. The peace of mind and convenience is priceless for all the reasons others already pointed out (frozen pipes while on vacation, security/camera systems, etc.) and also my aquariums (tropical fish don't like cold water.. :happy ).
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:45 pm I'd have to have an electrician properly size the unit to our home. I've done initial requirements but it would be good to have a double check. Our home is 3 stories and about 5000 sf. Plus barn, well, 3 separate HVAC systems, etc, so perhaps it needs a higher capacity generator system.
Did your electrician do the size wattage requirements?
j
We had our HVAC folks (the one's who installed our original/replacement HVAC system/duct-work when we had our home built) do the sizing for the genset. They have folks on the design side that are responsible for ensuring that the system matches requirements in case of an outage. I've heard stories of electricians that install gensets without the design background. I'm sure they can do it with less expense, however I would be concerned if they were not certified brand dealers/installers, especially when it comes time for possible warranty work and they don't have a "relationship" with the genset vendors. For instance, "my guys" (and girl) in service have attended both Generac & Kohler vendor "schools" and are certified in their maintenance and design work, and are willing to go to bat for you if a manufacturing problem arises (I had none, but I've read of others who had a problem when installed by a non-affiliated electrician/installer).

BTW, the "brains" of the system is the switch, not the genset. The switch is what recognizes the utility failure, tells the genset to start, and manages the load via "load shedding" to reduce high amperage circuit usage according to your specified priorities. While our (Honeywell) switch has two HVAC (heat pump or air conditioner) controls, it also controls four other high amp (240v) circuits - our microwave/stove combo (priority 1), our island cook-top (priority 2), our hot water heater (priority 3) and our clothes dryer (priority 4). As usage exceeds the 83 amps generated by our genset (in a home that has 200 amp service) it automatically controls those high amp circuits by "cutting out" (temporarily) by priority those lower requirement circuits, thus keeping the genset running rather than popping the generator circuit breaker and shutdown of the entire system. As spare amps become available, those loads that have been "shed" come back on-line automatically. Load sheding also allows you to install a smaller, lower amperage genset and save some money by not over-engineering and putting in a much larger system that costs more to buy and maintain. While we have 200 amp service, we certainly don't use 200 amps 24 hours a day. If we would have installed a much larger (4 cyl, water cooled) system, we would have been spending much more money on the unit, along with using more fuel to generate amps we didn't necessarily need. Sure, I "only" have 83.3 amps to work with, but it supplies what I need during an emergency situation.

The order of sequence during a power failure is as follows:
- The transfer switch "waits" for 10 seconds. That time is given to allow the utility to reroute and restore power to the home. At around 11 seconds, the next step happens.
- The transfer switch/genset controller requests the genset to start up. This usually takes about 5 seconds, then continue to next step.
- The genset "smooths out" the electric generation, and the switch (automatically) transfers the feed from the utility to the genset. Your lights (all 110 circuits have priority) come on and you're no longer in the dark :D ... All this happens in 20 seconds.

The transfer switch is also responsible for genset disconnect when power is restored, telling the genset to go into cool-down mode (run for a few minutes without a load)

I've read about current generation transfer switches that can control (shed) up to eight different high amp circuits, if you want to take it further and make your priority list more finite.

BTW, our 20 kWh genset is for our 2400 sq. ft (all electric) home with 200 amp service. Your system must be designed for what you need, even up to a 300 amp, 3 phase system.

Good luck on your decision, whatever it may be.

- Ron
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by smitcat »

Ron wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:53 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:45 pm I'd have to have an electrician properly size the unit to our home. I've done initial requirements but it would be good to have a double check. Our home is 3 stories and about 5000 sf. Plus barn, well, 3 separate HVAC systems, etc, so perhaps it needs a higher capacity generator system.
Did your electrician do the size wattage requirements?
j
We had our HVAC folks (the one's who installed our original/replacement HVAC system/duct-work when we had our home built) do the sizing for the genset. They have folks on the design side that are responsible for ensuring that the system matches requirements in case of an outage. I've heard stories of electricians that install gensets without the design background. I'm sure they can do it with less expense, however I would be concerned if they were not certified brand dealers/installers, especially when it comes time for possible warranty work and they don't have a "relationship" with the genset vendors. For instance, "my guys" (and girl) in service have attended both Generac & Kohler vendor "schools" and are certified in their maintenance and design work, and are willing to go to bat for you if a manufacturing problem arises (I had none, but I've read of others who had a problem when installed by a non-affiliated electrician/installer).

BTW, the "brains" of the system is the switch, not the genset. The switch is what recognizes the utility failure, tells the genset to start, and manages the load via "load shedding" to reduce high amperage circuit usage according to your specified priorities. While our (Honeywell) switch has two HVAC (heat pump or air conditioner) controls, it also controls four other high amp (240v) circuits - our microwave/stove combo (priority 1), our island cook-top (priority 2), our hot water heater (priority 3) and our clothes dryer (priority 4). As usage exceeds the 83 amps generated by our genset (in a home that has 200 amp service) it automatically controls those high amp circuits by "cutting out" (temporarily) by priority those lower requirement circuits, thus keeping the genset running rather than popping the generator circuit breaker and shutdown of the entire system. As spare amps become available, those loads that have been "shed" come back on-line automatically. Load sheding also allows you to install a smaller, lower amperage genset and save some money by not over-engineering and putting in a much larger system that costs more to buy and maintain. While we have 200 amp service, we certainly don't use 200 amps 24 hours a day. If we would have installed a much larger (4 cyl, water cooled) system, we would have been spending much more money on the unit, along with using more fuel to generate amps we didn't necessarily need. Sure, I "only" have 83.3 amps to work with, but it supplies what I need during an emergency situation.

The order of sequence during a power failure is as follows:
- The transfer switch "waits" for 10 seconds. That time is given to allow the utility to reroute and restore power to the home. At around 11 seconds, the next step happens.
- The transfer switch/genset controller requests the genset to start up. This usually takes about 5 seconds, then continue to next step.
- The genset "smooths out" the electric generation, and the switch (automatically) transfers the feed from the utility to the genset. Your lights (all 110 circuits have priority) come on and you're no longer in the dark :D ... All this happens in 20 seconds.

The transfer switch is also responsible for genset disconnect when power is restored, telling the genset to go into cool-down mode (run for a few minutes without a load)

I've read about current generation transfer switches that can control (shed) up to eight different high amp circuits, if you want to take it further and make your priority list more finite.

BTW, our 20 kWh genset is for our 2400 sq. ft (all electric) home with 200 amp service. Your system must be designed for what you need, even up to a 300 amp, 3 phase system.

Good luck on your decision, whatever it may be.

- Ron
When you say 83 amp genset are your referring to 83 amps by 240 volts?
When you say a 200 amp home are you referring to a 200 amp by 120 volt home?
engineer1969
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by engineer1969 »

Motors (refrigerators, freezers, pumps, vacuums, washers, etc) and Toasters are the power hogs. If you can cut down on their use during an outage you can "rough it" on a very affordable generator. A/C is off the table unless you are willing to go high end. The big draw on the motors is when they initially start, so as long as they aren't starting at the exact same time you are fine to run more than one.

We have a semi-automatic transfer switch which was installed for just under $1k. It requires us to start the generator when the power goes out. Considering the cost of the items in the fridge/freezer at any given time it didn't seem like a huge investment.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by mouses »

engineer1969 wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:54 am Motors (refrigerators, freezers, pumps, vacuums, washers, etc) and Toasters are the power hogs. If you can cut down on their use during an outage you can "rough it" on a very affordable generator. A/C is off the table unless you are willing to go high end.
My house is not habitable in the summer without AC. YMMV.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say 83 amp genset are your referring to 83 amps by 240 volts?
Rated voltage output on the genset is 240 volts. 83.3 amps is the spec output and it has a 90 amp circuit breaker.

Genset spec sheet: http://kt4qw.com/generator/generac20kw.pdf
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say a 200 amp home are you referring to a 200 amp by 120 volt home?
I'm speaking about the service panel, which is rated at 200 amps. The genset remote shows utility current at 240 v (no amps shown).

I'm not an electrician so I go by the system design as given by others.

- Ron
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by smitcat »

Ron wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:53 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say 83 amp genset are your referring to 83 amps by 240 volts?
Rated voltage output on the genset is 240 volts. 83.3 amps is the spec output and it has a 90 amp circuit breaker.

Genset spec sheet: http://kt4qw.com/generator/generac20kw.pdf
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say a 200 amp home are you referring to a 200 amp by 120 volt home?
I'm speaking about the service panel, which is rated at 200 amps. The genset remote shows utility current at 240 v (no amps shown).

I'm not an electrician so I go by the system design as given by others.

- Ron
Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Your genset is rated at 166 amps at 120 volts or at half that at 240 volts.

Your genset is rated at 20,000 watts which is 166 amps like this 20,000 / 120 volts = 166 amps at 120 volts
Your genset max running amps are rated like this 18,000 / 120 volts = 150 amps at 120 volts

It is very likely that the only appliances that use 240 volts at your home are the HVAC units and the 2 cooktops, the HWH is likely at 120 volts.
But that is just a guess since many of these vary a good deal in size and draw.
Typical wattage ratings for various ‘stuff’ that may be running on the genset….

1,000 watts or 8 amps at 120 – microwave
3,800 watts or 32 amps at 120 – HVAC unit (2 ton / 24,000 btu / requires multiple starting amperage dependent upon unit)
1,000 watts or 8 amps – typical well pump ( ½ hp / times 2 for starting draw)
700 watts or 5.8 amps – typical reefer/freezer
Etc….
Adding up the watts and then the amps tells us what devices are available to draw the power and determining which ones may be on at the same time helps form the plan ( ie – where we are the heat and A/C will never be used at the same time similar to the heat and the pool pumps). Understanding the exact draw at start up of various pumps like HVAC and preparing a solution to that is also part of the plan.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:21 am
Ron wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:53 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say 83 amp genset are your referring to 83 amps by 240 volts?
Rated voltage output on the genset is 240 volts. 83.3 amps is the spec output and it has a 90 amp circuit breaker.

Genset spec sheet: http://kt4qw.com/generator/generac20kw.pdf
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say a 200 amp home are you referring to a 200 amp by 120 volt home?
I'm speaking about the service panel, which is rated at 200 amps. The genset remote shows utility current at 240 v (no amps shown).

I'm not an electrician so I go by the system design as given by others.

- Ron
Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Your genset is rated at 166 amps at 120 volts or at half that at 240 volts.

Your genset is rated at 20,000 watts which is 166 amps like this 20,000 / 120 volts = 166 amps at 120 volts
Your genset max running amps are rated like this 18,000 / 120 volts = 150 amps at 120 volts

It is very likely that the only appliances that use 240 volts at your home are the HVAC units and the 2 cooktops, the HWH is likely at 120 volts.
But that is just a guess since many of these vary a good deal in size and draw.
Typical wattage ratings for various ‘stuff’ that may be running on the genset….

1,000 watts or 8 amps at 120 – microwave
3,800 watts or 32 amps at 120 – HVAC unit (2 ton / 24,000 btu / requires multiple starting amperage dependent upon unit)
1,000 watts or 8 amps – typical well pump ( ½ hp / times 2 for starting draw)
700 watts or 5.8 amps – typical reefer/freezer
Etc….
Adding up the watts and then the amps tells us what devices are available to draw the power and determining which ones may be on at the same time helps form the plan ( ie – where we are the heat and A/C will never be used at the same time similar to the heat and the pool pumps). Understanding the exact draw at start up of various pumps like HVAC and preparing a solution to that is also part of the plan.
Good job.
Thanks.
Question: Does a whole house automatic generator feed "selective circuits" or the entire panel?
(does not include transfer switch panels which are something else)
jim
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Epsilon Delta »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:21 am Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Electric service is rated at 240V.

In theory you can draw 400A at 120V if the load is evenly split between the legs. You really shouldn't draw more than 80% of that though, and you also need to include any 240V loads.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by smitcat »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:41 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:21 am
Ron wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:53 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say 83 amp genset are your referring to 83 amps by 240 volts?
Rated voltage output on the genset is 240 volts. 83.3 amps is the spec output and it has a 90 amp circuit breaker.

Genset spec sheet: http://kt4qw.com/generator/generac20kw.pdf
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am When you say a 200 amp home are you referring to a 200 amp by 120 volt home?
I'm speaking about the service panel, which is rated at 200 amps. The genset remote shows utility current at 240 v (no amps shown).

I'm not an electrician so I go by the system design as given by others.

- Ron
Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Your genset is rated at 166 amps at 120 volts or at half that at 240 volts.

Your genset is rated at 20,000 watts which is 166 amps like this 20,000 / 120 volts = 166 amps at 120 volts
Your genset max running amps are rated like this 18,000 / 120 volts = 150 amps at 120 volts

It is very likely that the only appliances that use 240 volts at your home are the HVAC units and the 2 cooktops, the HWH is likely at 120 volts.
But that is just a guess since many of these vary a good deal in size and draw.
Typical wattage ratings for various ‘stuff’ that may be running on the genset….

1,000 watts or 8 amps at 120 – microwave
3,800 watts or 32 amps at 120 – HVAC unit (2 ton / 24,000 btu / requires multiple starting amperage dependent upon unit)
1,000 watts or 8 amps – typical well pump ( ½ hp / times 2 for starting draw)
700 watts or 5.8 amps – typical reefer/freezer
Etc….
Adding up the watts and then the amps tells us what devices are available to draw the power and determining which ones may be on at the same time helps form the plan ( ie – where we are the heat and A/C will never be used at the same time similar to the heat and the pool pumps). Understanding the exact draw at start up of various pumps like HVAC and preparing a solution to that is also part of the plan.
Good job.
Thanks.
Question: Does a whole house automatic generator feed "selective circuits" or the entire panel?
(does not include transfer switch panels which are something else)
jim
I have seen them set up both ways dependent upon the need. Out here where we are (NE) the heating is typically oil or gas so the electrical loads are much lower. Additionally many (most) folks do not size a unit for their AC use as it is not so much a 'requirment' for the area and greatly reduces the size of the genset needed that serves an oil/gas heated home.
So a smaller capacity genset will cost less, require less fuel, fuel storage, and less maintance over time.
Practically if you have a 200 amp incoming service and a genset that can supply near the same 200 amps then selective circuits are not needed. OTOH if you have lower capacity and 'know' you cannot run the AC for example then a much smaller unit may fill the task at hand.
Many folks here view backup gensets as backups only and have planned for those units to fulfill needs during brief and widely spaced power outtage events - they do not plan or size them to have a full compliment of service for the isolated usage. Others have a plan to 'replace' their full power capability and need toi size the unit, and fuel storage accordingly.
Dependent upon your specific goal & plan it will lead you to a different solution.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by smitcat »

Epsilon Delta wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:54 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:21 am Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Electric service is rated at 240V.

In theory you can draw 400A at 120V if the load is evenly split between the legs. You really shouldn't draw more than 80% of that though, and you also need to include any 240V loads.
Our 200 amp service is at 120 volts - one 100 amp breaker over two poles of 120 volts each.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by queso »

+1. I have seen them both ways. Ours feeds the whole panel with load shedding capabilities (like Ron's). We have it dropping the dual wall ovens first, then AC zone 1, then AC zone 2, etc. This can all be programmed into the transfer switch/load shedding config when you set it up and is largely personal preference.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by smitcat »

queso wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:57 am +1. I have seen them both ways. Ours feeds the whole panel with load shedding capabilities (like Ron's). We have it dropping the dual wall ovens first, then AC zone 1, then AC zone 2, etc. This can all be programmed into the transfer switch/load shedding config when you set it up and is largely personal preference.
I believe that Ron's really needs/wants the load shedding capability due to his 2 two large HVAC units and two large cooking devices.
It is very likely each one of them are larger 240 volt draws and he does not want to limit his ability to use any one of them.
Likely a good compromise to adding a larger genset and supporting fuel supply.
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queso
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by queso »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:06 am
queso wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:57 am +1. I have seen them both ways. Ours feeds the whole panel with load shedding capabilities (like Ron's). We have it dropping the dual wall ovens first, then AC zone 1, then AC zone 2, etc. This can all be programmed into the transfer switch/load shedding config when you set it up and is largely personal preference.
I believe that Ron's really needs/wants the load shedding capability due to his 2 two large HVAC units and two large cooking devices.
It is very likely each one of them are larger 240 volt draws and he does not want to limit his ability to use any one of them.
Likely a good compromise to adding a larger genset and supporting fuel supply.
Yeah, if he is oversubscribed then the load shedding won't be optional. :happy
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:06 amI believe that Ron's really needs/wants the load shedding capability due to his 2 two large HVAC units and two large cooking devices.
Nope; only one heat pump. I mentioned that the switch has the capability to manage two, without any additional modules. There is no intention to add another heat pump.

In the next development (newer/larger homes) they have gas heat/ac but many of the homes have two A/C units. In that case, they are using the two standard controls available on the switch.

Here's the info of the switch I have installed: https://www.honeywellstore.com/store/pr ... m200a3.htm

- Ron
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Epsilon Delta »

smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 am
Epsilon Delta wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:54 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:21 am Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Electric service is rated at 240V.

In theory you can draw 400A at 120V if the load is evenly split between the legs. You really shouldn't draw more than 80% of that though, and you also need to include any 240V loads.
Our 200 amp service is at 120 volts - one 100 amp breaker over two poles of 120 volts each.
Thats 100A service. Really this is a question of definitions and your definition is just wrong.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by smitcat »

Epsilon Delta wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:21 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 am
Epsilon Delta wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:54 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:21 am Yes - your incoming panel rated at 200 amps is likely at 120 volts.
Electric service is rated at 240V.

In theory you can draw 400A at 120V if the load is evenly split between the legs. You really shouldn't draw more than 80% of that though, and you also need to include any 240V loads.
Our 200 amp service is at 120 volts - one 100 amp breaker over two poles of 120 volts each.
Thats 100A service. Really this is a question of definitions and your definition is just wrong.
OK - I apologize for naming the service incorrectly.
I must have a panel that is a 100 amp service, it provides 200 amps of power at 120 volts but half that at 240.
Sorry for the incorect definition.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by queso »

Ron wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:17 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:06 amI believe that Ron's really needs/wants the load shedding capability due to his 2 two large HVAC units and two large cooking devices.
Nope; only one heat pump. I mentioned that the switch has the capability to manage two, without any additional modules. There is no intention to add another heat pump.

In the next development (newer/larger homes) they have gas heat/ac but many of the homes have two A/C units. In that case, they are using the two standard controls available on the switch.

Here's the info of the switch I have installed: https://www.honeywellstore.com/store/pr ... m200a3.htm

- Ron
Our switch came with 2 HVAC relays as well and both are consumed with the dual AC units. We added an additional module for the dual wall ovens since that was our next largest load. I think our switch supports up to 4 additional load shedding modules for secondary loads, but we only needed the one for the ovens.
craimund
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by craimund »

just frank wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:20 am
Cycle wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:55 am When self driving car fleets start showing up in the next 5-10 years the demand for exurb and country homes will take a nose dive (at least in mcol and lcol areas). Don't expect to get any money back on money invested today, you'll be targeting an extremely niche market and there will be a surplus of homes available to that market.

For one thing, people simply won't want hideous attached garages and driveways when they don't have a personal car, and the vast majority won't have one. When paying per mile for transportation its going to take a lot to convince an urban renter to buy a house where their Waymo account charges are going to be 20X from what they are used to.

I could be wrong of course.

Power goes out not even once per year and why is this a big deal? I understand you may need to shut off the water during the winter, but even then its not the end of the world. On the scale of first world problems, seems somewhere between ones monocle shattering and the internet being slow.
Conversely, when flying cars (AAVs) become popular a few years after that, exurban demand could go back up. :twisted:
I will be keeping my flying car in my hideous attached garage (or would that be a hideous attached hangar?). No need for the hideous driveway - just a hideous landing/launch pad or maybe just hover right out of the garage door. :mrgreen:
"When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose"-Bob Dylan 1965. "When you think that you've lost everything, you find out you can always lose a little more"-Dylan 1997
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by pshonore »

emoore wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:41 pm I would think in 10 to 15 years the most common backup would be batteries. No fuel needed and more can be added as needed. I would bet in 10years they will be cheap enough to get 50 or 100 kWh or more.
I doubt it will take anywhere near that long.

According to today's Boston Globe, solar installer Sunrun Inc. has begun selling its home-battery package, known as Brightbox, in Massachusetts for an introductory battery price of $1,000, a fraction of what rival battery installations like Tesla cost. Of course that doesn't include the cost of solar.

https://www.sunrun.com/solar-plans-and- ... gy-battery
craimund
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by craimund »

dm200 wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:19 am Folks we know on the next street installed one of these. I cannot recall the cost, but it seemed like quite a bit. If you have (especially use) natural gas, there are fewer safety and fuel storage issues/risks. Several years ago, we lost power for several days (heat of the summer) and it was terrible. Going to a hotel/motel is often not possible because they fill up quickly.

I suspect (not 100% sure) such a setup would last for many, many years as well.

My guess is that to get some degree of "value" or "return" if you sell, you would need:
1. Excellent sales/marketing of the house to a niche that would value it
2. Other features of the house tht would appeal to a niche that would value the generator, such as for a disabled person dependent on power
3. A certain neighborhood and overall price range.
I have neighbors with the whole house generator systems with underground propane tanks. We used to have regular outages, some for extended periods of time (Hurricane Isabel in 2003 was the longest). Not so much lately. I use a small portable generator large enough for refrigerator, freezer, computer, TV and lighting. Not enough for heat pumps or HW heaters. Microwave strains a bit when on the generator. Of course, power went out during the wind storm last week and the bugger wouldn't start. 5 years old and rarely used. Should have drained the gas. :oops: Oh well. Just bought another - this time one that runs on propane. Hopefully we will get more than 5 years out of the new one.
"When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose"-Bob Dylan 1965. "When you think that you've lost everything, you find out you can always lose a little more"-Dylan 1997
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Sandtrap
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

queso wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:57 am +1. I have seen them both ways. Ours feeds the whole panel with load shedding capabilities (like Ron's). We have it dropping the dual wall ovens first, then AC zone 1, then AC zone 2, etc. This can all be programmed into the transfer switch/load shedding config when you set it up and is largely personal preference.
what is "load shedding'?
j
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queso
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by queso »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:06 pm
queso wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:57 am +1. I have seen them both ways. Ours feeds the whole panel with load shedding capabilities (like Ron's). We have it dropping the dual wall ovens first, then AC zone 1, then AC zone 2, etc. This can all be programmed into the transfer switch/load shedding config when you set it up and is largely personal preference.
what is "load shedding'?
j
When (if) your electrical demand becomes greater than what the generator can supply it will drop or "shed" the loads you specify until enough available juice becomes available to supply them again.

Nevermind.. this dude explains it way better than I can - http://blog.jasonpalmer.com/2012/12/hur ... er-switch/
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Sandtrap
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Sandtrap »

queso wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:14 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:06 pm
queso wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:57 am +1. I have seen them both ways. Ours feeds the whole panel with load shedding capabilities (like Ron's). We have it dropping the dual wall ovens first, then AC zone 1, then AC zone 2, etc. This can all be programmed into the transfer switch/load shedding config when you set it up and is largely personal preference.
what is "load shedding'?
j
When (if) your electrical demand becomes greater than what the generator can supply it will drop or "shed" the loads you specify until enough available juice becomes available to supply them again.

Nevermind.. this dude explains it way better than I can - http://blog.jasonpalmer.com/2012/12/hur ... er-switch/
thanks
j
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
mouses
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by mouses »

pshonore wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:59 am
emoore wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:41 pm I would think in 10 to 15 years the most common backup would be batteries. No fuel needed and more can be added as needed. I would bet in 10years they will be cheap enough to get 50 or 100 kWh or more.
I doubt it will take anywhere near that long.

According to today's Boston Globe, solar installer Sunrun Inc. has begun selling its home-battery package, known as Brightbox, in Massachusetts for an introductory battery price of $1,000, a fraction of what rival battery installations like Tesla cost. Of course that doesn't include the cost of solar.

https://www.sunrun.com/solar-plans-and- ... gy-battery
In the winter, 10 hrs is not enough, even if it is sunny all the days of the power outage. You'd probably have to have multiple ones, and then you get near the Tesla Powerwall cost. Plus, unless the natural gas supply fails, a natural gas generator should work indefinitely.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Ron »

mouses wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:37 pm
pshonore wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:59 am
emoore wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:41 pm I would think in 10 to 15 years the most common backup would be batteries. No fuel needed and more can be added as needed. I would bet in 10years they will be cheap enough to get 50 or 100 kWh or more.
I doubt it will take anywhere near that long.

According to today's Boston Globe, solar installer Sunrun Inc. has begun selling its home-battery package, known as Brightbox, in Massachusetts for an introductory battery price of $1,000, a fraction of what rival battery installations like Tesla cost. Of course that doesn't include the cost of solar.

https://www.sunrun.com/solar-plans-and- ... gy-battery
In the winter, 10 hrs is not enough, even if it is sunny all the days of the power outage. You'd probably have to have multiple ones, and then you get near the Tesla Powerwall cost. Plus, unless the natural gas supply fails, a natural gas generator should work indefinitely.
And according to the literature, it looks like you can't run anything beyond 110V. I wonder how long it would run with several 220v draws at the same time.

- Ron
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by jharkin »

radiowave wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 pm An alternative would be a portable generator and manual transfer switch. If you lose power, mostly inconvenience in the summer (I've been through 4 hurricanes, not fun after the 5th day of no power). But if you are in a very cold climate, e.g. you lose power when it's many degrees below freezing, and you need to get the furnace working, that could be a lifesaver, or at least save a lot of money avoiding broken pipes and water damage.
This. Even if you have a 240v well pump, an 8000 watt portable and a transfer switch will do and it only costs a fraction of what a whole house auto system does. Consider how often you will use it. And look at how many days in a 4 star hotel the price of that auto system will by.

For most people there is no ROI here.


I have a 3200w portable and a manual transfer switch. Cost me less than 1k. And when we (very rarely) loose power I could last a week on 5 gallons of gas, just running it a couple hours a day to keep the fridge cold and make hot water. I have a gas stove to cook on and a wooodstove for heat.



Other thought... As a potential buyer, I might see that massive generator and wonder - why do you need it? Is this house in a disaster prone spot? Could be a turnoff...
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by S_Track »

emoore wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:41 pm I would think in 10 to 15 years the most common backup would be batteries. No fuel needed and more can be added as needed. I would bet in 10years they will be cheap enough to get 50 or 100 kWh or more.
Agreed, I have a manual transfer switch with a portable generator for running the essentials including the 220v well pump. Works fine for us. When something like the Tesla whole house battery becomes more reasonalby priced I would consider it.
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Re: Whole House Natural Gas Generator

Post by Uniballer »

Beware the concept of batteries for extended power outage backup. This is likely to cause the same problem now experienced by some sites that use a whole-building UPS for power backup without an on-site generator. Once the batteries are depleted they must be recharged before they can sustain power during another extended power outage, and this can take many hours or even days. Back-to-back outages are not good for this configuration, whereas a generator can handle it easily as long as fuel is available and the engine is maintained.
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