Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

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Helo80
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am

BeneIRA wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:41 am

This didn't play out in my case. I know this is the standard advice, but in my case, I was able to get the a 2013-2016 model year Civic ( last generation's) when the 2017 redesign came out. A new LX, the cheapest model, was going for around $18,000. I got a low mileage model off of a 3-year lease for $10,750. Sure, I negotiated that down, but I figured I would negotiate the same discount on a new one, too. That was quite a savings over a new one. My spouse and I are very happy we went with this one as opposed to a new one. Additionally, in my state, property tax is taken on cars. The property tax on the new Civic was several hundred higher than my uses one.

Caveat with the "don't buy 2-3 year old Civic/Corolla" advice: If you are buying a previous generation, it might be worth it.


That's a good point.... There was a BH poster whom I was in contact with that found a dealer selling the '17 Camry LE/SE's for around $17k before TTL. Of course, this was right when the completely redesigned and all-new '18 Camry's were hitting the lot, and Toyota went bonkers on '17 Camry incentives.

It was a hard pass for me... IDK... maybe I should have picked up the '17.

So yeah, if you're looking at a new car and the next MY is a new design or build, you can absolutely snag good deals on the outgoing generation.

dbr
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by dbr » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am

ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:10 am


I missed the part about your income when I first read the post.

Unless there is still something else big still going on with your finances then you could easily have enough to pay cash by the time your current lease ends in July. One of the advantages of having a high income is being able to afford more safety features.

I would not get a Camry Hybrid though because it is a relatively low production car. I would be concerned about the resale value since most people that would want a 7 year old Camry would want a gas version of it. If you want a Hybrid then I would take a hard look at the Prius and I would only get that if you drive a lot of miles each year.
To give you a better picture of my financial situation: I'm 30 live in a HCOL area, make 200k and only have 150k in retirement/taxable accounts, 30k in EF, and 17k in the car fund. I've also got roughly 80k equity in my home if that matters. I feel like most here would consider me an underaccumulator. Joined this site last year and was able to get my finances in order and am now on track to max my 401k by march and all excess will go to savings and taxable this year so I'm saving aggressively moving forward. In short, I'm trying to make more strategic financial decisions especially around big ticket items like a car purchase where I can buy smart and then spread the costs over many years of ownership. Maybe after reading this many of you will tell me to go buy a 2005 Camry and invest the rest. I'm open to constructive criticism.

Also, do hybrids not hold their resale value well? For whatever reason the Camry Hybrids I've looked at in my area look like they are holding their value just as well as the gas counterparts. I have stupidly always viewed them as a better decision but I tend to drive only 8-9k miles a year.
[/quote]

I agree that if you are making $200K and can't find a way to assemble $30K to buy a new car for cash, there is something seriously wrong with your money management. Is the problem that you are paying off a large debt load or possibly that you are house poor or something like that?
Last edited by dbr on Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Helo80
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:15 am

ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:10 am
Also, do hybrids not hold their resale value well? For whatever reason the Camry Hybrids I've looked at in my area look like they are holding their value just as well as the gas counterparts. I have stupidly always viewed them as a better decision but I tend to drive only 8-9k miles a year.

If you're driving that few miles, I would steer clear of hybrids.

Chip
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Chip » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:19 am

dbr wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am
I agree that if you are making $200K and can't find a way to assemble $30K to buy a new car for cash, there is something seriously wrong with your money management. Is the problem that you are paying off a large debt load or possibly that you are house poor or something like that?
I suspect the OP's user name is a good clue. Perhaps many mistakes up until now and trying hard to follow the right path forward.

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ram
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by ram » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:20 am

At your income level I recommend new Toyotas/Hondas and think about used (3yr) when you start considering Lexus.
Ram

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whodidntante
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by whodidntante » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:24 am

Cars are necessary for most people, but they destroy wealth so it's good to estimate total cost of ownership. How long are you going to keep that 2015 car, for example, and what do you expect to get when you sell? The maintenance costs will be higher also. How does that compare to the new car?

Used car transaction costs for most people are rather high because they are not skilled negotiators. The fact that you're going to a dealer means you're already at a disadvantage, and you're dealing with professional negotiators. New car pricing is more transparent and it's easier to buy a new car without losing as much on transaction costs, though some people do poorly at that also. The difference can be thousands.

TravelforFun
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by TravelforFun » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:26 am

Some brands depreciate slower than others and buying them used may not be worth it. We own two Lexus and keep them at least 10 years so we buy a new one every five years. We don't trade in our cars, we advertise them (one-owner, low mileage, garage-kept) and sell them ourselves.

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sunny_socal
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by sunny_socal » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:28 am

Depends on how much you drive. I do 25k a year, a lease simply wouldn't work and a used car is too risky. For me a new Camry/Accord/Civic/Corolla is absolutely the best choice and I'll feel confident driving it for 10 years.

Ninnie
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Ninnie » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:29 am

whodidntante wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:24 am
Cars are necessary for most people, but they destroy wealth so it's good to estimate total cost of ownership. How long are you going to keep that 2015 car, for example, and what do you expect to get when you sell? The maintenance costs will be higher also. How does that compare to the new car?

Used car transaction costs for most people are rather high because they are not skilled negotiators. The fact that you're going to a dealer means you're already at a disadvantage, and you're dealing with professional negotiators. New car pricing is more transparent and it's easier to buy a new car without losing as much on transaction costs, though some people do poorly at that also. The difference can be thousands.
+1

ASpenderInRecovery
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by ASpenderInRecovery » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:33 am

Chip wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:19 am
dbr wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am
I agree that if you are making $200K and can't find a way to assemble $30K to buy a new car for cash, there is something seriously wrong with your money management. Is the problem that you are paying off a large debt load or possibly that you are house poor or something like that?
I suspect the OP's user name is a good clue. Perhaps many mistakes up until now and trying hard to follow the right path forward.
You hit the nail on the head. Wasted a lot of money up until mid last year on everything/anything. I live in Northern VA so the HCOL hasn't helped but I'm pleased to say I'm saving/investing a boatload more YoY. Last year and this year will be my first two times maxing my 401k. Last year I maxed my 401k by EOY this year I'll have it maxed by March to give you an idea of my progression. Opened my first taxable account last year shortly after joining this site and have contributed steadily every month while establishing both the EF and car fund.
Last edited by ASpenderInRecovery on Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Alexa9
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Alexa9 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:38 am

The most expensive time of ownership is the first few years because of depreciation but it's generally hassle free.
The most expensive part of the last few years is repairs and maintenance and it can be a hassle if you need a reliable vehicle to get to work.
I think the sweet spot of car ownership is 3-10 years.
The vehicle should be nearly half off at 3 years right when the lease suckers are done with it.
If you drive more than 15k miles/year, buy a low mileage used and save.
If you drive less than 10k miles/year, buy a higher mileage used and save even more.
It is true that Honda/Toyota are not a bargain used, but you can find deals if you search and haggle.

randomguy
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by randomguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:40 am

ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:10 am

Also, do hybrids not hold their resale value well? For whatever reason the Camry Hybrids I've looked at in my area look like they are holding their value just as well as the gas counterparts. I have stupidly always viewed them as a better decision but I tend to drive only 8-9k miles a year.
Hybrids are very model specific. Last I looke the camry hybrid performed about the same as the camry. Financially they are borderline and a lot depends on your local gas prices and miles driven (i.e at 20k city miles/year the hybrid is a no brainer. 8-9k with say half highway and the numbers might not work out). And if you start talking 200k+/15+ years of ownership things like the battery are likely to become an issue. Few people in the 10 year/150k range have had any battery issues.

Mr.BB
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Mr.BB » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 am

It does for me. I drive about 23,000-25,000 miles a year. Right off the back a lease would not work for me with all the miles I put on a car. My last car went around 270,000 miles, which is probably about 18 years for a person driving normal miles. I also get an extended warranty which has usually worked out to my advantage whenever I buy one.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

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dm200
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by dm200 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:56 am

Mr.BB wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 am
It does for me. I drive about 23,000-25,000 miles a year. Right off the back a lease would not work for me with all the miles I put on a car. My last car went around 270,000 miles, which is probably about 18 years for a person driving normal miles. I also get an extended warranty which has usually worked out to my advantage whenever I buy one.
The net value of an extended warranty that you cite (for you) seems unusual. Why do you think it works for you? These plans are, normally, very high profit and commission items.

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dm200
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by dm200 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:57 am

randomguy wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:40 am
ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:10 am
Also, do hybrids not hold their resale value well? For whatever reason the Camry Hybrids I've looked at in my area look like they are holding their value just as well as the gas counterparts. I have stupidly always viewed them as a better decision but I tend to drive only 8-9k miles a year.
Hybrids are very model specific. Last I looke the camry hybrid performed about the same as the camry. Financially they are borderline and a lot depends on your local gas prices and miles driven (i.e at 20k city miles/year the hybrid is a no brainer. 8-9k with say half highway and the numbers might not work out). And if you start talking 200k+/15+ years of ownership things like the battery are likely to become an issue. Few people in the 10 year/150k range have had any battery issues.
No personal experience, but I notice that (in general) the feared battery problems with Hybrids have not materialized.

Helo80
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

dm200 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:56 am
Mr.BB wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 am
It does for me. I drive about 23,000-25,000 miles a year. Right off the back a lease would not work for me with all the miles I put on a car. My last car went around 270,000 miles, which is probably about 18 years for a person driving normal miles. I also get an extended warranty which has usually worked out to my advantage whenever I buy one.
The net value of an extended warranty that you cite (for you) seems unusual. Why do you think it works for you? These plans are, normally, very high profit and commission items.


Yeah, I'm curious on this point as well. The factory extended warranties can sometimes net the dealer more profit than the actual sale of the car. The finance managers usually earn a large commission on said warranties since they set the price to be whatever they personally and the dealership feel like it should be.

For German vehicles though, a factory EW can sometimes be worth it if for nothing more than peace of mind. Sometimes the tuning on the performance engines have problems that develop 50k to 70k miles down the road. For Toyota and Honda though, the answer is generally the EWs are never worth it unless you want that peace of mind.

randomguy
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by randomguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Alexa9 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:38 am
The most expensive time of ownership is the first few years because of depreciation but it's generally hassle free.
The most expensive part of the last few years is repairs and maintenance and it can be a hassle if you need a reliable vehicle to get to work.
I think the sweet spot of car ownership is 3-10 years.
The vehicle should be nearly half off at 3 years right when the lease suckers are done with it.
If you drive more than 15k miles/year, buy a low mileage used and save.
If you drive less than 10k miles/year, buy a higher mileage used and save even more.
It is true that Honda/Toyota are not a bargain used, but you can find deals if you search and haggle.
I have never seen a car that sells for 50% of the sales price after 3 years. Some cars have residuals in that range but residuals are based on MSRP and not the sales price. The cars with low residuals tend to be the ones selling for 10-20%+ off MSRP:) Used cars people like to focus on MSRP because it makes buying used look better. New car people look at actual sales price because it can really shrink the gap. ANd if you think I am joking about 20%+ off being easily doable, google GMC/Buick products. I have seen 33k cars listed for 24k. There is probably even another thousand if you are willing to actually haggle:)

Heck even leasing can be the right move. For example, I don't think anyone is going to beat 55/month for a car with maintenance and a warranty for driving a 50k car around

https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/2017-bmw ... j-ny/31788

Leasing is very situational dependant and can work out well when you can get 3-5k+ of dealer cash spread out over 2-3 years of ownership rather than 10+. Leasing can also be a great way of overpaying for a car:)

In the end there are too many unknowns. Honda/Toyotas don't pencil out well unless you assume they will have 5k less in repair costs of over their lifetime. That might be a reasonable assumption:) But in general figuring repair estimates in the 100k+ mile range is pretty much impossible. You can run the gamut from getting to 200k with just oil changes and the like to needing tens of thousand of dollars of repairs (i.e. far more than depreciation). On average keeping the used car running forever works out well if you can deal with the added inconvenience.

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eye.surgeon
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by eye.surgeon » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 pm

It should be pointed out that leasing has tax advantages for some business owners that buying does not. A blanket statement that "leasing is for suckers" is not correct for some here.
"I would rather be certain of a good return than hopeful of a great one" | Warren Buffett

Helo80
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:02 pm

eye.surgeon wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 pm
It should be pointed out that leasing has tax advantages for some business owners that buying does not. A blanket statement that "leasing is for suckers" is not correct for some here.

There are a number of advantages that leases afford, but when you mix cars + leasing + financial forum, it's usually a toxic mix.

Within the car world, there are some makes/models that are generally good leases and others that generally are terrible leases.

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dm200
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by dm200 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:08 pm

eye.surgeon wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 pm
It should be pointed out that leasing has tax advantages for some business owners that buying does not. A blanket statement that "leasing is for suckers" is not correct for some here.
Yes - no tax expert, but I believe there may be some tax benefits for cars leased for business use.

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Flymore
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Flymore » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:20 pm

About 2 years ago, my cousin emailed me and asked if we wanted to use his condo in Ft. Lauderdale.
Once there it was raining and rained for the first couple days.
Bored, wife says let's go to the mall and walk around. Not my favorite, but ok.
Surprised to see cars in the mall, BMW's, McLaren etc. we rarely have that around here.
The Rolls Royce Wrath caught my eye. sticker on it was $329k. :shock:
I laughed, :oops: the starlight headliner was $29k Hahahahaha gee that's more than my wife's car and mine combined just for the headliner! :shock:

Standing there, started thinking about my assets, 401k, savings etc... Could see me just a few years away some voice said, you can't take it with you. People move down here how much time do you have left? What if... :shock: :shock: ... then yea I could see spending that on this car.

Haven't bought a new car, like the one I have but did retire about a year later.

Ollie123
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Ollie123 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:34 pm

After reading quite a few of these discussions months ago while we were on the market for a car, I'm again struck by the imprecision of "rules of thumb" for car purchases, just like when it comes to buying a house/saving for retirement/etc. Really, I think the only rule that makes sense is "live beneath your means." So don't buy that Rolls Royce mentioned above. There are a million possible ways to crunch the numbers and a million factors to consider, but unless I'm somehow missing something big we are ultimately going to be talking about a REALLY negligible difference in the grand scheme of things for a reasonably priced car you are planning to drive for an extended period of time. Folks who are the first to tell you that depreciation of stocks is only a true loss if you sell will treat car depreciation like its a real loss regardless of how long you are keeping it (and yes - I understand these are different classes and there is also some assumption of risk based on how insurance would pay out in the event its totaled...but no one gets into that level of detail).

If you want a "new to you" car every 3 years, it probably makes sense to buy used. If you want a higher-end car and are normal-person wealthy and not wealthy to the point you don't need to consider price, it probably makes sense to buy used. If we are interested in making the best FINANCIAL decision, neither of those are good financial decisions. If you want a normal car and want to drive it for a reasonable length of time (let's say ~10 years), new vs. used becomes much more nuanced. It depends on car, length of time you intend to keep, nature of price, how hard you drive it, how well you negotiate, where you would buy used and how much effort you would invest into finding a "deal", estimated repair costs and availability of good mechanics and a million other factors. My take is that differences in how well it works out in the end are FAR more likely to be driven by luck-of-the-draw when it comes to failure rates for individual car components. Yes, this is not completely random and we can predict by make across thousands of vehicles, but there is a fair amount of noise with this at the individual level. There are still plenty of Camry/Accord-type cars that will start having major problems 8 years in and plenty of sketchy off-brand rust-piles that never should have lasted past 1995 that are somehow still on the road.

Basically, my point is that the mathematically best decision is much more complicated than people make it out to be (here or anywhere). If you are generally being responsible with your purchases, the level of nuance is probably more than it is worth worrying about.

If you want some oversimplified math to justify buying new...
We bought a 2017 Forester for 27k last year. Got 0% financing for 4 years and they had no other "0% financing vs. cash" discounts so it was a no-brainer (financially) to take it, especially since we had just bought a house and we wanted to reserve our remaining cash-on-hand. Per carmax, a roughly comparable used 2014 version would be ~20k. We could probably get a better deal than carmax, but let's run with it.

Assumptions: We need cars for 50 years of our life. Cars die at exactly 10 years and value is zero at that time. We are the most loyal car buyers in history and literally get the same thing each time we buy to make this simple. Ignore inflation or market changes so pricing stays constant. We'll assume repair costs are roughly equivalent since the new cars are under warranty for the additional period. 90000

New car: 50 years /10 year life span = 5 lifetime cars needed * 27k = $135,000 total lifetime cost
Used Car: 50 years/7 year lifespan (10 year total lifespan - 3 years original owner) = 7.14 lifetime cars needed * 20k = $142,800.

Note that there is a lot wrong with this analysis and I know it. They very well may last longer than 10 years. They will certainly not be worth zero. Subaru holds it value better than most. My point is certainly not that you should buy new OR used. My point is that even this lame attempt at analysis is far more than most people will do when making a case for new vs. used. And it puts lifetime differences at $8,000 favoring new. We could easily change the assumptions and move it to $8,000 favoring used. Either way, with a 200k salary....if $8,000 spread over your remaining life makes or breaks your financial health, you have far bigger issues than car purchases.

Buy something reasonable and keep it for a decent amount of time and the new vs. used debate is like the car equivalent of spending hours couponing and driving to 8 different grocery stores to shave $15 off the weekly bill. For some its a game they enjoy and that's fine. It is ultimately not going to be what makes or breaks your financial health.

ASpenderInRecovery
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by ASpenderInRecovery » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:17 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:05 am
ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:59 am

Good question, it’s a 2015 Camry XLE currently 20k miles and the residual is 16.9k maturing in July. According to my research it’s right below market value assuming you bought a similar car from a dealer and I return it with around 23-24k miles based on how my mileage is tracking.

Ok, thanks for the extra info on trim and your current/proejcted mileage as those were going to be my next questions that I did not ask.

To me, the question you have to ask yourself and only you can answer "Is the 2018 Camry XLE worth $10,000 more to me (appearance, safety features, new parts compared to wear/tear on the '15, etc.)"

At $16900, it's a wash. You're not leaving equity on the table, nor are you getting rid of a financial lemon. Toyota Financial Services was very spot on with the lease calculator IMHO.

At 23-24k miles, there is still plenty of life left in the engine and car --- even if you were a bit hard on it. Rental cars are sold from the major carriers all the time and people are generally very rough on rentals, yet there is not a huge "rental stigma" nor price dip. Yeah, you can save a bit of money, but not thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. I've even seen some of the renters asking around or $500 more for apples to apples compared to my local Toyota dealership used lot...

It does not sound like you're grossly unhappy with Toyota, Camry, or your current car.

At your income, you ought to be able to pay off $10k within a year. Heck, you put away an extra $2k per month and you'll have that by July.

Again, the big question: "Is the 2018 Camry XLE worth $10,000 more to me (appearance, safety features, new parts compared to wear/tear on the '15, etc.)" Of course, you can always take a loan out for $10k that is over 12, 24, 36 mos with minimal interest.
Thanks for the advice and analysis of the residual price. You seem to have a great understanding of the car market. Have you worked in the auto sales industry? Also, in your opinion is it worth spending the time and energy to try and find a potentially better used Camry deal if I was to just return my vehicle at maturity? From what you're saying it seems like the other cars out there will be priced marginally the same and I'll have to deal with the uncertainty of how the car was treated.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:21 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:14 pm
Another "help me justify buying a new car thread". If you want a new car and can afford one, buy one. Have safety features drastically changed since 2015? When you do have kids, won't they have changed again then?
This.

Many folks seem to find a perfectly logical reason to do whatever it is that they really want to do anyway. If "safety features" are it for you, then go for it.

You've leased your cars in the past? Hmm...

If you take really good care of it, in two years when you are ready to dump it in order to get the newest "safety features", maybe I'll buy it from you if the mileage is low enough.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by tpetsch » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:34 pm

Bought a new Mitsubishi Evolution back in 2004 and put 100,000 trouble free miles on it and I sold it for $11,000 less than I paid for it.

Bought a new Toyota 4Runner back in 2013 and put 100,000 trouble free miles on it and I sold it for $13,000 less than I paid for it.

So for me personally buying both those particular cars new was a wise choice.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 pm

I would also differentiate between safety features like construction (crumple zones) and airbags vs. things that attempt to correct for bad driving, distracted driving or driver error like lane departure, blind spot monitoring, etc. In other words, safety features that protect you in a crash versus things designed to help avoid one. I'd be curious to know if the latter features actually do cut down on accidents. I suspect there isn't enough data yet.
Last edited by michaeljc70 on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gtd98765
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by gtd98765 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:45 pm

I know extrapolating from just a few data points is a bad idea, but I think the answer is yes for me.

The two cars I have kept for 10+ years, a Ford Escort SW and a Volvo XC-70, I bought new. All of our other cars were bought used, and all developed significant problems that I had to repair during the <5 years I owned them. My feeling is that people are more likely to replace cars that are giving them trouble; due to inertia, they may keep cars that are treating them okay. So used cars that are for sale may be more likely to have problems than similarly-aged used cars that are not for sale. For example, you are considering keeping your Camry off lease since it has treated you well. If it had caused trouble - even if repairs were covered by the warranty, I bet you would be more likely to give it back.

Since the most important thing for me about a car is that it work reliably, when the Volvo finally starts causing problems (I hope a considerable time from now) I will get rid of it and buy a new Honda or Toyota, paying the new-car premium for better odds on reliability.

Mr.BB
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Mr.BB » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:59 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm
dm200 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:56 am
Mr.BB wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 am
It does for me. I drive about 23,000-25,000 miles a year. Right off the back a lease would not work for me with all the miles I put on a car. My last car went around 270,000 miles, which is probably about 18 years for a person driving normal miles. I also get an extended warranty which has usually worked out to my advantage whenever I buy one.
The net value of an extended warranty that you cite (for you) seems unusual. Why do you think it works for you? These plans are, normally, very high profit and commission items.


Yeah, I'm curious on this point as well. The factory extended warranties can sometimes net the dealer more profit than the actual sale of the car. The finance managers usually earn a large commission on said warranties since they set the price to be whatever they personally and the dealership feel like it should be.

For German vehicles though, a factory EW can sometimes be worth it if for nothing more than peace of mind. Sometimes the tuning on the performance engines have problems that develop 50k to 70k miles down the road. For Toyota and Honda though, the answer is generally the EWs are never worth it unless you want that peace of mind.
It works for me because for one thing I negotiate the price down. Secondly because I drive my car so much (and far) I have always ended up with a part that needs replacing that usually runs me at least the cost of the warranty. Years ago I use to have a Mitsubishi eclipse, sure enough I had about 800 miles to go to the end of the warranty and I ended up needing a gasket replaced which would of cost me $1000.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

ssquared87
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by ssquared87 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:00 pm

Unless your needs have changed, which based on what we know they have not, you should just buy the Camry off lease. It will last forever and you know that you took good care of it.

As an alternative though, seems like you don't drive a ton of miles. Not sure if you use the car for long trips, but may be worth considering a used Nissan Leaf or BMW i3. If your driving less than 75 miles in one shot, you should be fine as long as you have another car for longer trips.

A 3 year old i3 can be had in the 20k range, the leaf was going for 12-15k last i checked. You'd have the benefit of paying less for energy, and also never having to waste time at a gas station, assuming you have somewhere at home you can plug in. Maintenance is lower for electric vehicles as well, but there are concerns with each of these models that you should look into if you consider the idea.

epictetus
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by epictetus » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm

i agree with the poster who said:
buy new
buy cheap
buy reliable
keep for a long time (until significant problems develop)

with toyotas and hondas i think buying used is not the way to go as a rule.
Focus on what you can control

DC3509
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by DC3509 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:26 pm

As someone who just participated in one of these car threads recently, I second some of the posters here who say that there are just entirely too many variables here to really offer good advice. If you are maxing out your 401K, have an emergency fund, saving in a taxable account, not house poor, and this purchase fits into the larger budget, then do whatever really works best for your individual circumstances. The overall impact of this on your finances will be minor at the end of the day.

I also don't think you should be shaming yourself here with your savings so far. Having $150K already in a 401 (k) in yours 30s is a serious accomplishment and far more than most people have, including a lot of people who are close to retirement.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by inbox788 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:29 pm

ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:31 pm
I’m approaching the end of my Camry lease in July. After making some moronic decisions with my past 2 car purchases I want to make the best possible decision this time. I recognize that a car is not an investment as it just depreciates but I want to be conscious of the total cost of ownership as well as safety features with this purchase. I’ve saved up 17k ontop of my emergency fund which I can either use to buy out my 2015 Camry lease residual, buy a different used vehicle, or put a large down payment on a new car, preferably a 2018 Camry.

If I buyout my lease I’ve eliminated car payments and have a low mileage 2015 Camry with a residual that should be just under market value. The issues are I didn’t exactly baby the car in the past 3 years as I wasn’t anticipating buying it out. Also, the car is lacking many of the safety features I wanted to upgrade to as I anticipate my wife and I having kids in the next couple years.
...
If you were in my position what would you do? Does it ever make sense to buy new over used with a car like a Camry?
I would begin with some reflection on what had occurred, and getting a realistic view of what you've spent and what mistakes you've made. Still, making $200k, the short answer is you can afford it so don't be cheap about the car. Just return the car that's not suitable and get a decent 2018 Camry that you desire. Don't overthink it or upgrade beyond what you need. Heck, lease it if you get a good deal. Sometimes it's better to lease than to buy with cash or finance. It all depends on the deal you get. Know that you're paying a little more for a new car each time, but with a low depreciation car, the difference is less.

Prior to the Camry, what car did you buy or lease? What was the total cost? And what about the current Camry? If you paid $300/month on a lease and return the car, you've spent $3600 a year in car costs in 3 years. That's not the biggest mistake you could have made (you could have paid $3000 down and $500/month for a fancier car).

Why do you think your Camry is "under market value"? Usually with leases, the value is more. If it's truly under, the you should return your lease car, and just buy a similar one on the open market.
What didn't you do to baby your car? I don't understand this renter mentality. Some people mistreat their rentals, while others mistreat their own cars, but not rentals because they don't want to be deducted fines or penalties upon return. I try to treat my cars or rentals equally well regardless.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:49 pm

ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:17 pm
Thanks for the advice and analysis of the residual price. You seem to have a great understanding of the car market. Have you worked in the auto sales industry? Also, in your opinion is it worth spending the time and energy to try and find a potentially better used Camry deal if I was to just return my vehicle at maturity? From what you're saying it seems like the other cars out there will be priced marginally the same and I'll have to deal with the uncertainty of how the car was treated.

No, I have never worked a day in the auto or sales industry. Rather, I've turned a wrench once or twice in my life, and enjoy reading, listening (CarPro Show), and studying the way car sales works. I'm basically self-taught, and have a decent feel for when dealers and mechanics are being truthful or trying to cheat you either from the sales or repair sides. Also, it helps that my "go-to" cars are generally the Accord or Camry and the Acura/Lexus equivalents. These are all very solid and historically reliable cars.

If you're inclined to keep the '15 Camry, no, I don't think it's worth your time to shop around. The reason being is that you have a known quantity (your '15) that has been working okay for you. If you want to save serious coin (e.g. >$5000), you're going to have to go up in miles and age and at your income, I don't think you're hurting for $5k dollars even if you have historically been a spender. Camry's tend to hold their values well b/c there is always a strong market for cars in the 5 year, 60k to 80k mile range from people who are more price conscious and know the motors should easily do another 150k miles.

In terms of pricing your current '15 XLE, I just did a local market search in my area and found '15 XLEs going for rough $17-18k... about what your buyout is.

Income wise, I think you're fine to go for either the '18 or '15 (assuming the '15 has been trouble free). Dollar wise, you would probably come out ahead keeping the '15 and not starting all over with new vehicle depreciation on a 2018.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by destinationnc » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:57 pm

bovineplane wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:53 am
The used market might surprise you. Drove my last truck for 9 years. Went to buy a replacement and priced 2014/5 Silverados. The used trucks were the same price as a new 2017 with incentives. I shopped Carmax, various dealers, online quotes and private purchase. Cheapest I could find was a 2015 with 38k miles for 39.9. Bought a new 2017 for 40.7. The 800 extra was worth going new as it had full warranty, safety features, new tires, brakes, etc. The $800 difference would not buy the warranty or new tires.

Just like my last truck I will own it 8-10 years unless it gets totaled. After 9 years of ownership (bought new) I sold it for 12k. IIRC we paid 36k for it new. Had a 100k warranty on it. Put 150k+ miles on it. Was my first new car. Hopefully this one works out as well or better. Sometimes buying new is ok but I agree you have to be of the mindset to keep it for 8-10 years minimum and the price difference between new and 2-3 years old isnt large.
Same experience when I bought a Subaru Outback. Also gave me some peace of mind knowing how much of their value they hold. Also true when buying a Honda Odyssey, I know the interior is going to get messed up with kids, but new was totally worth it.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Helo80 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Ollie123 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:34 pm
Basically, my point is that the mathematically best decision is much more complicated than people make it out to be (here or anywhere). If you are generally being responsible with your purchases, the level of nuance is probably more than it is worth worrying about.

You had a great post that I really enjoyed reading. People that are good with money management (like BHs) tend to be adverse to spending any money on vehicles --- it's not a bad thing in light of people that make terrible financial decisions buying new cars and rolling over negative equity, but also come on... at worse, OP is going to lose about $10 grand (on a $200K+ income) if he opts for the 2018.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Agggm » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:03 pm

ASpenderInRecovery wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:31 pm
Bogleheads,

I’m approaching the end of my Camry lease in July. After making some moronic decisions with my past 2 car purchases I want to make the best possible decision this time. I recognize that a car is not an investment as it just depreciates but I want to be conscious of the total cost of ownership as well as safety features with this purchase. I’ve saved up 17k ontop of my emergency fund which I can either use to buy out my 2015 Camry lease residual, buy a different used vehicle, or put a large down payment on a new car, preferably a 2018 Camry.

If I buyout my lease I’ve eliminated car payments and have a low mileage 2015 Camry with a residual that should be just under market value. The issues are I didn’t exactly baby the car in the past 3 years as I wasn’t anticipating buying it out. Also, the car is lacking many of the safety features I wanted to upgrade to as I anticipate my wife and I having kids in the next couple years.

In my head, perhaps because my father told me “never buy new” I feel like a sucker buying new as I would be the one taking the depreciation hit and would be committing to more monthly payments. On the upside I make over 200k and could easily pay it off quickly, I’d be getting every safety/convenience feature I want, and would get the benefit of the new warranty.

Lastly, I’ve ruled out buying a heavily used car as I had my fair share of those in my life and am not mechanically inclined enough to identify a good/bad deal or handle repairs myself.


If you were in my position what would you do? Does it ever make sense to buy new over used with a car like a Camry?
Buy a new Camry trimed with all the features you want. Use truecar to see what the average purchase price was and offer 95% of that. Or use Edmunds price promise to get bids and pick the best price. Don't get extended warranties etc.

killjoy2012
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by killjoy2012 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:05 pm

OP can afford whichever option he wants. Not sure there's really any debate to be had.

I caution the OP in stating that leasing was a terrible financial decision, when in the next breath he's stating he wants all the latest safety do-dads that the 2018-19 model offers. So, IOWs, if you would've purchased the current 2015 vehicle, you'd now be stuck trying to figuring out how to best dispose of it... vs. just turning it in and moving on the latest and greatest model with the features you're after. Can't have your cake and eat it to. I'd bet if you laid the financials of both sides out, they'd be pretty close financially, esp after factoring in the 2015 disposition costs.

Sure, purchasing a slightly used vehicle and driving it for 15 years is best financially. But that's not how I read the OP's situation/desire.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by jhfenton » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:16 pm

epictetus wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm
i agree with the poster who said:
buy new
buy cheap
buy reliable
keep for a long time (until significant problems develop)

with toyotas and hondas i think buying used is not the way to go as a rule.
+1 That was our experience last time we shopped for a new car in March 2012. We ended up buying a new 2012 Honda Odyssey at an aggressively-negotiated price. The late-model used mini vans we looked at just weren't discounted enough to account for the increased age, mileage, and uncertainty regarding condition.

When we were younger, we bought a number of older used cars, including a used mini-van. We bought a 1996 Dodge Grand Caravan in a private sale in 2002 and drove that until the transmission died in 2012. But by 2012, we wanted either new or late-model. We had more money and our tolerance for maintenance issues was lower.

Our other car is a 2008 Ford Fusion we bought used from my grandmother-in-law. She was no longer able to drive it, so we bought it for enough to pay off her note on it (probably a little less than FMV). It was a win-win.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by dm200 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:24 pm

epictetus wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm
i agree with the poster who said:
buy new
buy cheap
buy reliable
keep for a long time (until significant problems develop)
with toyotas and hondas i think buying used is not the way to go as a rule.
Buy exactly the car (model, features. etc.) you want, need and are willing to pay for. The advantage of buying new is that you can almost always find the car/model/features you desire.

ASpenderInRecovery
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by ASpenderInRecovery » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:51 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:00 pm
Ollie123 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:34 pm
Basically, my point is that the mathematically best decision is much more complicated than people make it out to be (here or anywhere). If you are generally being responsible with your purchases, the level of nuance is probably more than it is worth worrying about.

You had a great post that I really enjoyed reading. People that are good with money management (like BHs) tend to be adverse to spending any money on vehicles --- it's not a bad thing in light of people that make terrible financial decisions buying new cars and rolling over negative equity, but also come on... at worse, OP is going to lose about $10 grand (on a $200K+ income) if he opts for the 2018.
+1 on Ollie’s post. Very interesting perspective that was great to read. Helps reframe the decision so that either option can make sense assuming you drive it long enough.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by Ollie123 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:10 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:00 pm

You had a great post that I really enjoyed reading. People that are good with money management (like BHs) tend to be adverse to spending any money on vehicles --- it's not a bad thing in light of people that make terrible financial decisions buying new cars and rolling over negative equity, but also come on... at worse, OP is going to lose about $10 grand (on a $200K+ income) if he opts for the 2018.
Thanks for the kind words. If he drives them until they die, I think 10k is a huge overestimate. He MIGHT be out a cumulative 10k if he does this for every new car for the rest of his life. Or 10k ahead.

This is a personal consumer board for a group of folks dedicated to being financially savvy. I get it. In general, the advice is the best I have seen from any message board on any topic. However, I do think cars are an area where people get so caught up in min/maxing they lose perspective. Buying reasonable cars and driving them as long as possible matters infinitely more than new vs used.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by randomguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:11 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 pm
I would also differentiate between safety features like construction (crumple zones) and airbags vs. things that attempt to correct for bad driving, distracted driving or driver error like lane departure, blind spot monitoring, etc. In other words, safety features that protect you in a crash versus things designed to help avoid one. I'd be curious to know if the latter features actually do cut down on accidents. I suspect there isn't enough data yet.
They intersect. That AEB that slows your car down by an extra 10mph because it reacts .5s faster than you do doesn't avoid an accident. It does reduce the severity of it. How much these systems are covering for bad driving versus inevitable human flaws is hard to say. But every tech advance for the past 20+ years has had this said about it (i.e. don't need ABS as I can pump the brakes. Sure don't need VSC as I know how to handle skids). So far they are have been wrong. It is easy to say that no driver should pretty much rear end another. Reality is that 40% of collision are rear end. And AEB has been show to eliminate 20-45% of those collisions (depends a lot on the system. The ones that just warn the driver tend to do worse than the ones that actually hit the brakes). That is pretty major.

The evidence for things like blind spot monitoring and lane change isn't as strong yet. Some of the orginal systems had basically no effect while it appears the 2nd gen ones are leading to an ~10% reduction in the the type of accidents (lane change) they are designed to protect.


Adaptive headlights are the other "new" safety tech that has been shown to be effective but it pretty much just applies to night driving and the effect isn't huge (~10% less property damage. Haven't seen crash/fatality stats yet.)

All that being said the next step where you link these together and call it autopilot scares the cr*p out of me. The gap between what these systems provide and autonomous driving is huge and the fact that they work 99% of the time lulls you into a sense of safety. And 1% cases happen a lot when your driving 365 days/year:)

And if say a 20% reduction of an accident (probably even less of a fatal accident) is worth spending say 2-5k on is hard to say. We aren't talking the most common events to start with and a 20% reduction of a small number isn't a big change. Of course the downside might not happen very often but the penalty can be huge.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:53 pm

randomguy wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:11 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 pm
I would also differentiate between safety features like construction (crumple zones) and airbags vs. things that attempt to correct for bad driving, distracted driving or driver error like lane departure, blind spot monitoring, etc. In other words, safety features that protect you in a crash versus things designed to help avoid one. I'd be curious to know if the latter features actually do cut down on accidents. I suspect there isn't enough data yet.
They intersect. That AEB that slows your car down by an extra 10mph because it reacts .5s faster than you do doesn't avoid an accident. It does reduce the severity of it. How much these systems are covering for bad driving versus inevitable human flaws is hard to say. But every tech advance for the past 20+ years has had this said about it (i.e. don't need ABS as I can pump the brakes. Sure don't need VSC as I know how to handle skids). So far they are have been wrong. It is easy to say that no driver should pretty much rear end another. Reality is that 40% of collision are rear end. And AEB has been show to eliminate 20-45% of those collisions (depends a lot on the system. The ones that just warn the driver tend to do worse than the ones that actually hit the brakes). That is pretty major.

The evidence for things like blind spot monitoring and lane change isn't as strong yet. Some of the orginal systems had basically no effect while it appears the 2nd gen ones are leading to an ~10% reduction in the the type of accidents (lane change) they are designed to protect.


Adaptive headlights are the other "new" safety tech that has been shown to be effective but it pretty much just applies to night driving and the effect isn't huge (~10% less property damage. Haven't seen crash/fatality stats yet.)

All that being said the next step where you link these together and call it autopilot scares the cr*p out of me. The gap between what these systems provide and autonomous driving is huge and the fact that they work 99% of the time lulls you into a sense of safety. And 1% cases happen a lot when your driving 365 days/year:)

And if say a 20% reduction of an accident (probably even less of a fatal accident) is worth spending say 2-5k on is hard to say. We aren't talking the most common events to start with and a 20% reduction of a small number isn't a big change. Of course the downside might not happen very often but the penalty can be huge.
With the level of distracted driving nowadays, these new systems may only be compensating for that.

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wander
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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by wander » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:45 pm

Buy a new nice car that you want to keep for a long time. I bought my car new and still drive it today after 22 years. I don't care much about resale value.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 am

ElJay wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am
jabberwockOG wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:49 pm
Lowest cost way to own cars over a lifetime is to buy a very reliable, low mile, well maintained 3 year old car at approx 60% of new cost and drive it 10 years and then sell it privately
I'd love to know where everybody finds these "low miles 3 year old" cars at 60% of original sticker. I don't know if the used market is really inflated here, but most cars I've noticed don't hit this 60% level until around five years in. I have rarely found the "lightly used" market to provide much of a value over new, especially in the boring Japanese-brand "appliance" cars people love here.
Depends on the car obviously, on BH the Toyota/Hondas are very popular, so buying one of these cars three years (30-45k miles) in isn't going to fetch the discount like a luxury car at the same interval. Without question, buying 3 years in is about the overall sweet spot in my experiences, which for my family, has been 9 vehicles over the last 15 years, one of which was a salvage title where the vehicle was three years old and re-sold 4 years and 55k miles later for $3k less than purchase price. We've never had a problem, bought via eBay, Craigslist, and other private sale avenues. A lot of people would hyperventilate at the thought of buying a car private sale so it's not for everyone, but the savings are there, and everyone has to calculate if it's worth it. People who make $300k shouldn't mathematically fret over it. The buy new and drive it until it dies is fine, but no where close to being the most efficient financial method, and that's fine too.

The poster above who mentioned that you can't buy a new car with 50 miles on it that was driven off the lot and depreciated 10% is correct, otherwise, a lot more people would do just that. But I've seen plenty of cars with 8-12k miles on it where the owner just didn't like it and the vehicle was probably impulse purchased and you can get these for 20% off of MSRP. I also don't mind the hunt for a new car, and the process of finalizing the transaction, other people have nightmares about it just as with home purchases but it's not that bad in my experiences. I'm always curious at the loathsome nature of some of the threads about dealerships why some don't give private sale at least one try.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by randomguy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:33 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:53 pm

With the level of distracted driving nowadays, these new systems may only be compensating for that.
Sure. But what difference does that make? To a certain extent all safety systems are compensating for poor driving. If everyone on the road was driving properly, there would be just about zero accidents (i.e. not many accidents are caused by mechanical failure or acts of god. They are caused by multiple mistakes being made).

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by randomguy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 am
But I've seen plenty of cars with 8-12k miles on it where the owner just didn't like it and the vehicle was probably impulse purchased and you can get these for 20% off of MSRP.
Sure but when you can get 10-20% off MSRP when buying a new car is getting 20% off a used car much of a deal?

For example.
2018 Toyota Corolla LE Sedan
MSRP 20180
internet price 17500

Would paying 16k for the used version be much of a deal? 1500 for 8-12k miles isn't much of a new car premium. Personally I would need the used car to be closer to 14k for me to think it is worth while. In all cases the exact details of the deal matter. I could never get the used minivan to pencil out. The used luxury sedan on the other hand was easy to justify.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by deltaneutral83 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:58 am

randomguy wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 am
Sure but when you can get 10-20% off MSRP when buying a new car is getting 20% off a used car much of a deal?

For example.
2018 Toyota Corolla LE Sedan
MSRP 20180
internet price 17500

Would paying 16k for the used version be much of a deal? 1500 for 8-12k miles isn't much of a new car premium. Personally I would need the used car to be closer to 14k for me to think it is worth while. In all cases the exact details of the deal matter. I could never get the used minivan to pencil out. The used luxury sedan on the other hand was easy to justify.
I mentioned in my prior post about BH type cars like Toyota/Honda not being the best deal for used as this is a supply/demand issue. These types of cars are in so high demand that the market for used isn't as strong, plus we're discussing an anecdotal situation. I had an in law who tried to buy a Prius years ago and the dealership wasn't budging off MSRP. The other obvious mathematical scenario is that the more expensive the MSRP, the more you save. A 42k luxury car being bought three years later for $25k is a great way to drive a nice car for a fraction of the cost. Bare bones Corolla/Camry/Civic/CRVs etc. etc. are never going to be ideal for buying used as compared to higher end cars.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by gundlached » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:40 am

When buying a Toyota Avalon in June 2016, new made more sense than used based on what I saw in the market. Unless used car prices have reduced since then, I think new can still make sense for the indestructible Japanese econoboxes.

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Re: Does it ever make sense to buy a new car?

Post by dm200 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:01 pm

wander wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:45 pm
Buy a new nice car that you want to keep for a long time. I bought my car new and still drive it today after 22 years. I don't care much about resale value.
We did something like that when we drove a lot of miles (2 cars) both for work commuting and several long road trips a year.

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