Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

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noraz123
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Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by noraz123 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm

I recently interviewed with Megacorp, and things have gone well. They have said they'd like to make an offer. However, instead of making an offer, they asked "what it would take" for me to join. Essentially, they want me to throw out the first offer.

I am not sure what to say. I do not want to give specific numbers like $X salary, $Y bonus, etc. My thinking is to tell them that I am excited at the prospect of joining, believe that I could add much value, and for the right opportunity offer, would accept.

How should I best respond?

Context:
  • I am in a good position at current role at successful company. If all things were equal, I would stay at current company.
  • Megacorp has been aggressively hiring, with some from my current company getting offers 30-50% more total compensation (salary + equity).
  • My role/responsibilities would be mostly the same. No promotion or step up in title.
  • Commute for both would be about the same.
  • Likely better work-life balance at Megacorp, but would want to prove myself in the first year. Megacorp certainly will be more bureaucratic and slow.
  • Work is likely more interesting at current company.
  • Other benefits are about the same.

livesoft
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by livesoft » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:57 pm

I think they are testing your ability to research what this job should pay.

I don't know if you are woman or not, but my impression is that women give lower salaries requests than men do.
Last edited by livesoft on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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bampf
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by bampf » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm

I hire a lot. Ranges are usually fixed. I think instead of worrying about what you could get, you should think about what you want and what it would take to move. If you make $100K then $120K is a reasonable approximation. Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.

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Pajamas
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Pajamas » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:01 pm

"I would be willing to consider any reasonable offer but I think that my experience and proven ability warrant an offer from you at the top of the range for this position."

Tal-
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Tal- » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:16 pm

Avoid giving specifics. I've had friends in situations where they gave a number, and then got that number, only to learn that they were significantly underpaid. So, I'd try to answer without giving specifics. Here are a few approaches:

The deferral:

"For me, salary is just part of the total compensation package - so it's hard to speak to salary without a better understanding of the other benefits."

Or, the "don't worry about it" response:

"Megacorp has a reputation for paying a fairly. I'm confident that if we decide that there's a fit for us both that salary will not get in the way of."

Or, the "you'll need to pay me" response:

"I'm currently making the low six figure range in a situation that I generally enjoy, and on a career trajectory that is strong. I'd be excited to make the move to megacorp, but would need to be sure that the total compensation package makes sense for me over the long term."

Pajamas also offered another strong option above
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by MindBogler » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:18 pm

You should go to salary.monster.com or look directly at the data from bls.gov to understand the current ranges for your position and metro area. You should ask for something that falls in those ranges, but is 10-20% higher than you are currently being paid. I usually attempt for a salary that is around the 75th percentile. Switching jobs is the best time to "right size" your salary. Even if your ask is a bit high, if they want you, they will counter down to within their range. If it isn't a good raise (10 - 20% minimum) then don't take the job.

Unlike what some others are saying, don't shy away from offering a number. If you are expected to be a decision maker, how can your input be valued if you are unable to fairly value your own worth? :beer

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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by rob » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:28 pm

It's a nonsense game from them - they have a salary band. What have you got to lose by going higher - you like your current role? This is the time to get a pay adjustment... once your there it's minor pay increases. Hit em :D
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by jebmke » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:38 pm

Whether you answer them or not you need to answer yourself so you know what your threshold is to leave.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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htdrag11
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by htdrag11 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:40 pm

Check out glassdoor.com also.

Give them a range, rather than a single number since there are so many variables, such as bonus, healthcare, 401k matching, internet, cellphone, RSUs, public transit fares, etc. Justify by doing a line item comparison from your current position to give yourself more credence.

You are aware that once the number or ranges are given, you cannot ask for more.

GL and be patience.

bmritz
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by bmritz » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:48 pm

Just wanted to share the best link I've seen on salary negotiation. I wish I had read this before signing my last job.

https://medium.freecodecamp.org/how-not ... 33a7682382

This will at least get you in the right mindset for the negotiation. It also gives some concrete phrases and words to use..which would be helpful to someone who doesn't know what to say in certain situations.

Good luck!

Afty
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Afty » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:54 pm

I would not make the first offer, I would give the non-committal answer you suggested and see what they come back with.

swimfin
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by swimfin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:06 pm

How about telling your current employer that Megacorp has approached you, then see if you can't get a salary bump to stay with your employer ?

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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by 28fe6 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:39 pm

My personal philosophy is to never, ever take a counter-offer. Either don't look for new work (and ignore recruiters), or else know what you need to make a move and don't look back when the new offer comes. You should be working in your current role to keep your compensation current all the time, which will make it hard to get a better offer in the first place. If you do get a better offer you take it and run. "This is the direction I want to take my career". At least in my industry, accepting a counter-offer puts a target on your back immediately whereas leaving actually leaves the door open. Other industries are different I'm sure.

When I left Megacorp for minicorp, I was offered a 15% better counter offer and a new assignment. I turned it down politely.

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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Jags4186 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:24 pm

If you’re happy with your current role then shoot high. I’d ask for a copy of their complete benefits plan so you can make an apples to apples comparison. If you make $100k and the benefits are equal ask for $150k. If the benefits aren’t equal true it up via salary.

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noraz123
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by noraz123 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:38 pm

swimfin wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:06 pm
How about telling your current employer that Megacorp has approached you, then see if you can't get a salary bump to stay with your employer ?
28fe6 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:39 pm
My personal philosophy is to never, ever take a counter-offer. Either don't look for new work (and ignore recruiters), or else know what you need to make a move and don't look back when the new offer comes.

I agree with 28fe6. I don't want to play any games with current employer. I believe that I am fairly compensated right now. However, Megacorp is aggressively hiring for certain roles and skill sets, and my current employer is both nearby and specializes in an area that Megacorp is looking to hire. Megacorp is "paying up" right now.

So the challenge with looking at Glassdoor and salary bands is that they don't seem to apply right now, at least not for some of my colleagues who have gotten offers from Megacorp.

I sent a note to the recruiter earlier this evening, and made no mention of any specific numbers, rather that I felt that I could add value, and cared most about fit/role/responsibilities. I said if we found the right fit, I wouldn't see compensation getting in the way.

We'll see how it goes. Worst case scenario is that I stay at my current company, which I like.

Bfwolf
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Bfwolf » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:53 pm

While your approach is better than making the first offer, I feel like you've given them "permission" to lowball you by saying salary won't get in the way. It puts you in a bit of an awkward position to then negotiate when they make you an offer...i.e. salary WILL be getting in the way. Especially given they are paying above market value...if they've been paying up 30% to 50% above market prices and they offer you +15%, how are you going to respond?

randomtimbersfan
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by randomtimbersfan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:07 am

Is the potential employer located in California? Since AB-168 took effect on January 1, 2018, employers are required to provide pay scale information about a position to an applicant if it is requested.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... 20180AB168

limeyx
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by limeyx » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:18 am

noraz123 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm
I recently interviewed with Megacorp, and things have gone well. They have said they'd like to make an offer. However, instead of making an offer, they asked "what it would take" for me to join. Essentially, they want me to throw out the first offer.

I am not sure what to say. I do not want to give specific numbers like $X salary, $Y bonus, etc. My thinking is to tell them that I am excited at the prospect of joining, believe that I could add much value, and for the right opportunity offer, would accept.

How should I best respond?

Context:
  • I am in a good position at current role at successful company. If all things were equal, I would stay at current company.
  • Megacorp has been aggressively hiring, with some from my current company getting offers 30-50% more total compensation (salary + equity).
  • My role/responsibilities would be mostly the same. No promotion or step up in title.
  • Commute for both would be about the same.
  • Likely better work-life balance at Megacorp, but would want to prove myself in the first year. Megacorp certainly will be more bureaucratic and slow.
  • Work is likely more interesting at current company.
  • Other benefits are about the same.
Just had the exact same but at a small company. They want me to make the first move and IMO you always get screwed doing that (happened to me more than once)

We went back and forth ... they will want to get you on the phone to make it harder for you to say no
They will give you the "What will it take to make you move" spiel (putting an implied onus on you to move if they come up with the number)
If you wont budge (depending on your state) they will ask about current salary/salary for history

For me, I treated it as a trap. No company opens a rec without a salary range.
I told them this and they said "If we give a range, the employee will want the top and the company the bottom"
Of course, they were not happy when I reversed the logic ...

In the end we "agreed to not agree" and I will move on

It's hard to be tough but if you have a good, stable job then you are generally in a position of power here not weakness

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:19 am

UGH so frustrating that they wait until the offer stage to have this conversation... they should have had it the first time they talked to you and know in their minds what it'll take for you to accept an offer. For what it's worth, as a recruiter, I always ask this question, albeit on an initial screen... notice he/she didn't ask what you're making now - totally different question and this one is legit.

At this point don't feel bad shooting for the moon. Once they decide they want to make you an offer and you're the one the ball is in your court. However, don't get greedy, do some research. If the industry average for the role is $100k don't shoot yourself out of an offer by saying $200k.

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:28 am

limeyx wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:18 am
noraz123 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm
I recently interviewed with Megacorp, and things have gone well. They have said they'd like to make an offer. However, instead of making an offer, they asked "what it would take" for me to join. Essentially, they want me to throw out the first offer.

I am not sure what to say. I do not want to give specific numbers like $X salary, $Y bonus, etc. My thinking is to tell them that I am excited at the prospect of joining, believe that I could add much value, and for the right opportunity offer, would accept.

How should I best respond?

Context:
  • I am in a good position at current role at successful company. If all things were equal, I would stay at current company.
  • Megacorp has been aggressively hiring, with some from my current company getting offers 30-50% more total compensation (salary + equity).
  • My role/responsibilities would be mostly the same. No promotion or step up in title.
  • Commute for both would be about the same.
  • Likely better work-life balance at Megacorp, but would want to prove myself in the first year. Megacorp certainly will be more bureaucratic and slow.
  • Work is likely more interesting at current company.
  • Other benefits are about the same.
Just had the exact same but at a small company. They want me to make the first move and IMO you always get screwed doing that (happened to me more than once)

We went back and forth ... they will want to get you on the phone to make it harder for you to say no
They will give you the "What will it take to make you move" spiel (putting an implied onus on you to move if they come up with the number)
If you wont budge (depending on your state) they will ask about current salary/salary for history

For me, I treated it as a trap. No company opens a rec without a salary range.
I told them this and they said "If we give a range, the employee will want the top and the company the bottom"
Of course, they were not happy when I reversed the logic ...

In the end we "agreed to not agree" and I will move on

It's hard to be tough but if you have a good, stable job then you are generally in a position of power here not weakness
Meh, some decent points some abysmal ones. If you have a good, stable job then you're probably not interviewing for another (unless, of course, $$ or work life balance or something else could be improved... but then are you happy?).

Just because companies have "a range" doesn't mean they will go up to the max... internal equity, your actual experience, etc all play a factor. For example, I can tell you our min, market, and max for a role if it makes you sleep better at night but very rarely does that impact 1) the offer we'd be willing to give YOU specifically or 2) the max were willing to spend on a role. Just because an IC4 goes up to $125k in our "range" doesn't mean we're going to go up to $125k in our offer.

limeyx
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by limeyx » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:35 am

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:28 am
limeyx wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:18 am
noraz123 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm
I recently interviewed with Megacorp, and things have gone well. They have said they'd like to make an offer. However, instead of making an offer, they asked "what it would take" for me to join. Essentially, they want me to throw out the first offer.

I am not sure what to say. I do not want to give specific numbers like $X salary, $Y bonus, etc. My thinking is to tell them that I am excited at the prospect of joining, believe that I could add much value, and for the right opportunity offer, would accept.

How should I best respond?

Context:
  • I am in a good position at current role at successful company. If all things were equal, I would stay at current company.
  • Megacorp has been aggressively hiring, with some from my current company getting offers 30-50% more total compensation (salary + equity).
  • My role/responsibilities would be mostly the same. No promotion or step up in title.
  • Commute for both would be about the same.
  • Likely better work-life balance at Megacorp, but would want to prove myself in the first year. Megacorp certainly will be more bureaucratic and slow.
  • Work is likely more interesting at current company.
  • Other benefits are about the same.
Just had the exact same but at a small company. They want me to make the first move and IMO you always get screwed doing that (happened to me more than once)

We went back and forth ... they will want to get you on the phone to make it harder for you to say no
They will give you the "What will it take to make you move" spiel (putting an implied onus on you to move if they come up with the number)
If you wont budge (depending on your state) they will ask about current salary/salary for history

For me, I treated it as a trap. No company opens a rec without a salary range.
I told them this and they said "If we give a range, the employee will want the top and the company the bottom"
Of course, they were not happy when I reversed the logic ...

In the end we "agreed to not agree" and I will move on

It's hard to be tough but if you have a good, stable job then you are generally in a position of power here not weakness
Meh, some decent points some abysmal ones. If you have a good, stable job then you're probably not interviewing for another (unless, of course, $$ or work life balance or something else could be improved... but then are you happy?).

Just because companies have "a range" doesn't mean they will go up to the max... internal equity, your actual experience, etc all play a factor. For example, I can tell you our min, market, and max for a role if it makes you sleep better at night but very rarely does that impact 1) the offer we'd be willing to give YOU specifically or 2) the max were willing to spend on a role. Just because an IC4 goes up to $125k in our "range" doesn't mean we're going to go up to $125k in our offer.
Meh meh :)

All I am saying is I am sick of going first. This time the company needs to make an offer we can negotiate on. They know their range. They know what they thought I was worth at interview.

I do have a good stable job but it doesn't pay what I want so ...

I've hired a lot of people over time (not on the HR side) and once you come in with a certain salary level-set, getting an adjustment in many companies is very very hard so it's best (for the employee) to come in as high as possible with leverage

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noraz123
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by noraz123 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:54 pm

limeyx wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:35 am

I've hired a lot of people over time (not on the HR side) and once you come in with a certain salary level-set, getting an adjustment in many companies is very very hard so it's best (for the employee) to come in as high as possible with leverage
Agree. Also, Megacorp in this case is not well known for salary increases once there. So in this case, I want to make sure that not only get a raise, but that I am happy with that for the next 2-3 years. After I've been there and proved my worth, I would like to think that I will have leverage to ask any adjustments if warranted. But I will assume no adjustment for the next couple years.

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noraz123
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by noraz123 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:07 pm

As mentioned, I sent a note yesterday saying that I would consider total compensation, not tied to any number, etc.

They replied back with this:
Next steps are you just need to let me know what comp package (base/sign on/RSU combo) it would take for you to make the move. Have you decided yet?
I'm thinking of saying something like, "My biggest motivation is to make the move to further my career. If I assume I were have the identical responsibilities I have today, then here's what it would take me to come [insert very high offer details of base/rsu/signing bonus here]."

Good idea? Should I not give any numbers? Should I not mention anything about "identical responsibilities"? I'm terrible with negotiating, and very much appreciate the avdice of crowds, at least when the crowds are Bogleheads.

Chuck
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Chuck » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:17 pm

noraz123 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm
Context:
  • I am in a good position at current role at successful company. If all things were equal, I would stay at current company.
  • Megacorp has been aggressively hiring, with some from my current company getting offers 30-50% more total compensation (salary + equity).
Tell them a number that is 30-50% more than you are currently making?? It sounds like you already know the parameters. If you are considering the move, that's what you want, right?

I don't see what's wrong with telling them what you want.

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Abe
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Abe » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

There is a rule in negotiation: "the first to give a number loses". I would not mention a number. As others have said, ask what the salary range is for the position. They are the ones doing the hiring, so they should be giving you an offer.
Slow and steady wins the race.

LawEgr1
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by LawEgr1 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Just went through this. I think it often get's complicated unnecessarily so. Don't overthink it and be confident.

#1) Do you like your job? If so, you are in a great position to ask for "your" number.
#2) Do you know ballpark of the pay range? You can get an outstanding feel for this with simple research. Glassdoor is great.

Then, name your price. What will it take for you to move and not regret it? It's that simple. Aim high, not realistic. If they like you, they'll make it work.

Personally, I've never been a fan of playing the game of he who names salary first loses. If you have a BATNA or position of leverage, own it and give them a number. As someone involved with hiring in the past, I appreciate those that are direct with that response.

My last offer I had I left an outstanding organization but the job I was getting an offer for was right up my alley and knew I was an outstanding match. So what'd I do? I asked for a lot of money and I said I'm not running from anything, this is what it'll take because your benefits are worse, PTO is less, etc. etc. etc. They came back at my request with an offer 3k less but with a raise after 6 mo. It was a done deal. I agree with those that the raises in the future are typically 1-4%, but I don't mind as much now that I feel I'm compensated very fairly. (i.e. salary reset as others have mentioned). It's your one chance.

This is my third job. I've either gotten what I asked for or close to it (and was satisfied because my first number was very strong) or negotiated each time after first offer. I am batting 1.000.

Whatever it is, make it count, do it with reason. Only YOU know what that number is! Best of luck. :sharebeer

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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by HornedToad » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:35 pm

You have to be willing to tell them what you want to join.

I agree with the philosophy from Ask the Headhunter:
* What's minimum to take the job
* what would make you happy
* what would make you ecstatic

And pick the total compensation somewhere between #2-3 and give them that as your desired number. If you are unhappy that they give the number and don't counter you then just pick a higher number where you'd be happy with it :)

manuvns
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by manuvns » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:36 pm

check what people in similar role are making ask 5-10% above that .

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 pm

Abe wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm
There is a rule in negotiation: "the first to give a number loses". I would not mention a number. As others have said, ask what the salary range is for the position. They are the ones doing the hiring, so they should be giving you an offer.
This is 2018, the first to give a number doesn't lose if you're truly saying the number it would take for you to be happy -- which is what the recruiter was asking. No one says you cannot shoot for the moon.

For example, say you make $100k and would be thrilled to make $125k. The recruiter asks "what are you looking to make" and you can say "I want to make $140k" The recruiter does what they can and comes back and offers you $125k. Did you lose?

Or for example, say you make $100k and want $150k and would be thrilled with $150k and the recruiter says "what are you looking for" and you can say "I feel I'm worth $150k and that's what it will take to accept an offer." The the recruiter can give you $150k if they can or not waste your time... did you lose?

Okay you get the range for a role - it's 100k - 200k (don't laugh, I've seen PLENTY of companies with 6 figure ranges). Market or industry average based off of the subset of data they benchmark against says the role is $135k. They now ask you what you're looking for. How does giving you a range (hint, which means nothing) help you if they are only willing to offer a max of $135k? They say market is $135k and that is the maximum we'd be willing to offer but you're not willing to accept less than $150k. Did you lose?

Lots of archaic negotiators and time wasters in this forum - just feel comfortable justifying asking for what you're asking for and feel free to take control of negotiations. No one is saying you cannot shoot for the moon... How hard can it be? :oops:
Last edited by NoGambleNoFuture on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:11 pm

Chuck wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:17 pm
noraz123 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm
Context:
  • I am in a good position at current role at successful company. If all things were equal, I would stay at current company.
  • Megacorp has been aggressively hiring, with some from my current company getting offers 30-50% more total compensation (salary + equity).
I don't see what's wrong with telling them what you want.
PRECISELY

KlangFool
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:26 pm

noraz123 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:07 pm
As mentioned, I sent a note yesterday saying that I would consider total compensation, not tied to any number, etc.

They replied back with this:
Next steps are you just need to let me know what comp package (base/sign on/RSU combo) it would take for you to make the move. Have you decided yet?
I'm thinking of saying something like, "My biggest motivation is to make the move to further my career. If I assume I were have the identical responsibilities I have today, then here's what it would take me to come [insert very high offer details of base/rsu/signing bonus here]."

Good idea? Should I not give any numbers? Should I not mention anything about "identical responsibilities"? I'm terrible with negotiating, and very much appreciate the avdice of crowds, at least when the crowds are Bogleheads.
noraz123,

Just tell them as per California's law, they should tell you the pay scale of the job.

KlangFool

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Abe
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Abe » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:36 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 pm
Abe wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm
There is a rule in negotiation: "the first to give a number loses". I would not mention a number. As others have said, ask what the salary range is for the position. They are the ones doing the hiring, so they should be giving you an offer.
This is 2018, the first to give a number doesn't lose if you're truly saying the number it would take for you to be happy -- which is what the recruiter was asking. No one says you cannot shoot for the moon.

For example, say you make $100k and would be thrilled to make $125k. The recruiter asks "what are you looking to make" and you can say "I want to make $140k" The recruiter does what they can and comes back and offers you $125k. Did you lose?
What if the recruiter was willing to offer $150k and you say, "I want to make $140k". You lost.
Last edited by Abe on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Slow and steady wins the race.

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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:37 pm

LawEgr1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

This is my third job. I've either gotten what I asked for or close to it (and was satisfied because my first number was very strong) or negotiated each time after first offer. I am batting 1.000.
LawEgr1,

How do you know? Unless you know exactly the maximum amount that the employer is willing to pay, how would you know?

KlangFool

28fe6
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by 28fe6 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:30 pm

Abe wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:36 pm
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 pm
Abe wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm
There is a rule in negotiation: "the first to give a number loses". I would not mention a number. As others have said, ask what the salary range is for the position. They are the ones doing the hiring, so they should be giving you an offer.
This is 2018, the first to give a number doesn't lose if you're truly saying the number it would take for you to be happy -- which is what the recruiter was asking. No one says you cannot shoot for the moon.

For example, say you make $100k and would be thrilled to make $125k. The recruiter asks "what are you looking to make" and you can say "I want to make $140k" The recruiter does what they can and comes back and offers you $125k. Did you lose?
What if the recruiter was willing to offer $150k and you say, "I want to make $140k". You lost.
No, you failed to fully optimize. But if you got the job and are happy then you have not lost. Negotiations are successful when both sides get what they want.

bampf
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by bampf » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:49 pm

28fe6 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:30 pm
Abe wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:36 pm
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 pm
Abe wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm
There is a rule in negotiation: "the first to give a number loses". I would not mention a number. As others have said, ask what the salary range is for the position. They are the ones doing the hiring, so they should be giving you an offer.
This is 2018, the first to give a number doesn't lose if you're truly saying the number it would take for you to be happy -- which is what the recruiter was asking. No one says you cannot shoot for the moon.

For example, say you make $100k and would be thrilled to make $125k. The recruiter asks "what are you looking to make" and you can say "I want to make $140k" The recruiter does what they can and comes back and offers you $125k. Did you lose?
What if the recruiter was willing to offer $150k and you say, "I want to make $140k". You lost.
No, you failed to fully optimize. But if you got the job and are happy then you have not lost. Negotiations are successful when both sides get what they want.
Exactly right. I said it once before, will say it again. Stop worrying about what you could get and ask for what you want. I had a negotiation today and I told the guy I was speaking with that I currently make $N. In order to make a change you would need to be prepared to offer me something north of $N. We had a pleasant conversation and we moved on. He didn't have N to offer me and I wasn't willing to waste time talking if I didn't have a shot of N++.

WRT ranges, I never ever hire anyone at the more junior levels at more than 50% penetration. The reason for this is that there is no room to grow their salary while at megacorp. Megacorp will have phase outs (those in the 75% band are only eligible for 3%) where as those in the 30 or 40% range can get 8 to 10%. At the senior levels, I will disclose that they are at the top end of their salary range and the only shot for increased comp is incentive based.

Finally, game it out. A 20% increase over 10 years is a ton of money vs staying where you are. Once you are at 100K, its a lot easier to ask for 120K next time. If you are at 70K, asking for 120K is problematic at best. Know your self. Stop worrying about what you "could get" and ask for what you want/need. If they are willing, great. If not, move on.

LawEgr1
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by LawEgr1 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:04 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:37 pm
LawEgr1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

This is my third job. I've either gotten what I asked for or close to it (and was satisfied because my first number was very strong) or negotiated each time after first offer. I am batting 1.000.
LawEgr1,

How do you know? Unless you know exactly the maximum amount that the employer is willing to pay, how would you know?

KlangFool
Excellent question. With regards to the maximum salary band, I do not know. With regards to what it would take to make me move so I am happy and feel fairly compensated, I am 1.000 by asking for quite a bit higher than what I would take and getting close to it or getting it.

Those are two distinctly different things as you've realized.

LE1

KlangFool
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:18 pm

LawEgr1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:04 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:37 pm
LawEgr1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

This is my third job. I've either gotten what I asked for or close to it (and was satisfied because my first number was very strong) or negotiated each time after first offer. I am batting 1.000.
LawEgr1,

How do you know? Unless you know exactly the maximum amount that the employer is willing to pay, how would you know?

KlangFool
Excellent question. With regards to the maximum salary band, I do not know. With regards to what it would take to make me move so I am happy and feel fairly compensated, I am 1.000 by asking for quite a bit higher than what I would take and getting close to it or getting it.

Those are two distinctly different things as you've realized.

LE1
LawEgr1,

Okay.

1) What if you find out later that you could be paid 30% more? 50% more?

2) How old are you?

KlangFool

LawEgr1
Posts: 177
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by LawEgr1 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:27 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:18 pm
LawEgr1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:04 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:37 pm
LawEgr1 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 pm

This is my third job. I've either gotten what I asked for or close to it (and was satisfied because my first number was very strong) or negotiated each time after first offer. I am batting 1.000.
LawEgr1,

How do you know? Unless you know exactly the maximum amount that the employer is willing to pay, how would you know?

KlangFool
Excellent question. With regards to the maximum salary band, I do not know. With regards to what it would take to make me move so I am happy and feel fairly compensated, I am 1.000 by asking for quite a bit higher than what I would take and getting close to it or getting it.

Those are two distinctly different things as you've realized.

LE1
LawEgr1,

Okay.

1) What if you find out later that you could be paid 30% more? 50% more?

2) How old are you?

KlangFool
1) Given I do market research in the fields I'm familiar with, given I mention a salary and overall package that is acceptable per my research and given I ask for the salary that makes me ecstatic and feel fairly compensated...then I find out I could've been paid more? I'm the one who accepted; it isn't the fault of the organization for giving me what I asked for and willfully accepted. Responsibility is on me, no one else, hence why the research and asking for a high salary is very important. If one feels playing the negotiation game can lead to 30-50% more, then that potential loss is the chance you take with my approach. The reverse is also true, however. Thus, name what you want as many others have echoed.


2) Probably below the mean of the boglehead.org age.

kjvmartin
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by kjvmartin » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm

bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.

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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by whodidntante » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:54 pm

What you make now * 1.2

bampf
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by bampf » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:07 pm

kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm
bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.
Google "ask salary before offering a wage" or something along those lines. Essentially, megacorps don't ask anymore because there are laws in NY, CA and a few other places that prevent that. It is designed to correct the disparity between wages of men and women. It isn't uniform and not everyone follows the west and east coast standards, but, its harder now. Link for a story out of NY:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... applicants

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:37 pm

bampf wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:07 pm
kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm
bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.
Google "ask salary before offering a wage" or something along those lines. Essentially, megacorps don't ask anymore because there are laws in NY, CA and a few other places that prevent that. It is designed to correct the disparity between wages of men and women. It isn't uniform and not everyone follows the west and east coast standards, but, its harder now. Link for a story out of NY:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... applicants
Asking what someone makes was always dumb to me. Who cares what someone makes - it's not indicative of what it would take for them to accept a new offer... and almost everyone is underpaid, especially if they've been in a role more than 18 months.

"What are you making in your current role" (which you can't ask in many states now) IS NOT the same as "what compensation are you looking to make in your next opportunity" or "what would it take for you to accept an offer" DUCY?

KlangFool
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm

kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm
bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.
kjvmartin,

I guess you do not know it is no longer legal to do that for many states in the USA.

KlangFool

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:09 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm
kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm
bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.
kjvmartin,

I guess you do not know it is no longer legal to do that for many states in the USA.

KlangFool
Many? Lol. Can you name all like 4 or 5 states that it's currently no longer legal in? <10% of states is hardly "many"... can't it be likely that KJV doesn't live in one of these FEW states or major cities?

KlangFool
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:14 pm

NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:09 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm
kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm
bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.
kjvmartin,

I guess you do not know it is no longer legal to do that for many states in the USA.

KlangFool
Many? Lol. Can you name all like 4 or 5 states that it's currently no longer legal in? <10% of states is hardly "many"... can't it be likely that KJV doesn't live in one of these FEW states or major cities?
NoGambleNoFuture,

By the way, my employer chooses to notify all its employees across all states regarding all our pay scales in our specific metro areas just to be fair to both new hire and current employees.

KlangFool

NoGambleNoFuture
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by NoGambleNoFuture » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:16 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:14 pm
NoGambleNoFuture wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:09 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm
kjvmartin wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:50 pm
bampf wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:59 pm
Alternatively you can ask "what is the salary range for this position?". Finally, they really can't ask you what you make anymore, which makes it harder all the way around.
I am interested in this. Why? I have been around a bit on the interview circuit and this seems like a common theme. Everyone wants to know my salary history. A recent application packet required me to edit my resume and add my final salaries across my job history.
kjvmartin,

I guess you do not know it is no longer legal to do that for many states in the USA.

KlangFool
Many? Lol. Can you name all like 4 or 5 states that it's currently no longer legal in? <10% of states is hardly "many"... can't it be likely that KJV doesn't live in one of these FEW states or major cities?
NoGambleNoFuture,

By the way, my employer chooses to notify all its employees across all states regarding all our pay scales in our specific metro areas just to be fair to both new hire and current employees.

KlangFool
So does the government. What, if anything, does that have to do with my post?!? Or just looking to change the subject :)

Jim Beaux
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Jim Beaux » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:31 pm

If there is a head hunter involved ask him what he knows. He wants to close a deal & just might be willing to help you. -- Worked for me a few times.

msk
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by msk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:41 pm

You are reasonably happy at your current job. There is always a comp level that would make you "consider" a move but still turn down the offer. There is also a much higher level that would make you jump at the offer. You decide somewhere between the two and ask for that. You get it, you move. Otherwise you are just wasting both your own time and your prospective employer's time. What your entry point comp happens to end up at is nowhere as important as where it will be 5 years hence. If you enter the new job underpaid and you have the talent then your megacorp will promote you within a couple of years (there is always a suction upwards for talent at any megacorp). If you enter the new job overpaid, you will be laid off at the next round of layoffs. I spent my career at a Fortune 10 and even did a lot of hiring along the way, even spent a couple of years in HR as part of my grooming for upper management.

Hillview
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by Hillview » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:05 am

Create a spreadsheet to see what you currently make (comp + bonus + benefits + 401k etc)
Compare that to what you know and can learn about the larger company -- pay special attention to things a larger company can sometimes offer eg 401k match/profit share, child care (if you don't have kids now but plan to in the next 5 years this could be material) and for me at least vacation

Sounds like you are happy where you are do you feel there is upward mobility in title and pay over time? Often a larger corp can offer more in mobility (more people more empty seats etc)

If you are happy I'd consider a 30-50% raise as a minimum to "make me move" and I'd be ok throwing that out there. If you don't ask you won't get. I'd worry less about leaving money on the table if there is a number that is a no brainer to move. You have nothing to lose by throwing out a top number.

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AtlasShrugged?
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Re: Potential employer wants me to give offer - how to respond?

Post by AtlasShrugged? » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:29 am

What you make now * 1.2
This. I would not even consider leaving without a minimum of 20% jump in salary.
“If you don't know, the thing to do is not to get scared, but to learn.”

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