Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

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Buster65
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Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Buster65 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:29 pm

I was thinking of buying a Certified pre owed vehicle from one of the "luxury" german manufacturers. My local mechanic says owning these cars after their warranty can be costly. He says stick with Japanese brands. I'm wondering if this is a dated school of thought of if this still holds true today?

HRPennypacker
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by HRPennypacker » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:31 pm

The European brands have gotten better, but from everything I hear from friends (and everything I read), Japanese is still much cheaper after warranty.

lakja
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by lakja » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:44 pm

I’ve owned two bmw’s and will continue to do so for the unforeseeable future because they are an absolute blast to drive.

Currently, I drive a CPO 2015 BMW X5. The new CPO extends the warranty to 5 years and unlimited mileage, so you’re covered for 5 years from the original sales date on warranty work. Any out-of-pocrket costs at the dealer will be expensive, but you can find a decent independent shop for cheaper.

Maintenance cost at the dealer is expensive, but you’re really only looking at two oil changes a year, wipers, spark plugs every 60k, brakes every 45-60k at $800-$1200 at an Indy shop, and tires every 30-45k. I just bought the 6 year/100k platinum maintenance plan for $2300 for all the oil changes, brakes, and plugs. I still have to pay for tires.

I believe the highest expense is still depreciation cost especially after the car hits over 100k miles, so in my situation I’m buying a used car at 45k and then selling it at 10k for a total loss of 35k.

Now, insurance cost for me is $300/6 months, personal property tax is $1200/year, and gas cost is around $2800/year for premium gas.

Edit: If you’re buying based on cost of ownership, clearly a German luxury car is not going to be the cheapest to own, that’s not why you own one.

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Alexa9
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Alexa9 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:08 pm

If you want a driver's car get a used Porsche 911. Otherwise I'd get a Lexus if just want luxury.
Beamer, Benz, and Audi are poorly rated after the new car smell fades away.

Retired1809
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Retired1809 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:15 pm

"Certified preowned" means just that. They're certifying that it's a used car. That's all.

Ask the used car dealer to give you in writing what they're guaranteeing. nada.

rgs92
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by rgs92 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm

Lexus lets you buy an 8 year CPO bumper-to-bumper extended warranty for about $3000-$4000. (It's basically a complete extension of the new car warranty).

The German brands offer only a 4 or 5 year extension (for about the same price), and those have lots of meaningful exceptions, like the audio system and lots of electronics, and lots of little things that go wrong like the tire pressure monitors and several hardware thingys. They went through the warranty with a fine tooth comb to make exclusions of things that are trouble prone and expensive. It pretty shameful.

Read the fine print.

lakja
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by lakja » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:38 pm

rgs92 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm
The German brands offer only a 4 or 5 year extension (for about the same price), and those have lots of meaningful exceptions, like the audio system and lots of electronics, and lots of little things that go wrong like the tire pressure monitors and several hardware thingys. They went through the warranty with a fine tooth comb to make exclusions of things that are trouble prone and expensive. It pretty shameful.

Read the fine print.
At least for BMW, this is inaccurate. They offer several extended warranty plans in addition to CPO that allow you to select among different tiers (covered items) and years/mileage up to 7 year/125k.

3504PIR
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by 3504PIR » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:50 pm

I'm not a fan of buying used in this case. I've owned 3 BMWs and each has been a great car, but things begin to go wrong or need replacing after 5 or 6 years. If I was buying a 2 year old used luxury car, I'd get a Lexus.

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snackdog
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by snackdog » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm

JD Power says the Koreans are most reliable. MB is above average. Lexus and Toyota are average. Audi is appalling.

Image

Wolkenspiel
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Wolkenspiel » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:19 pm

rgs92 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm
Lexus lets you buy an 8 year CPO bumper-to-bumper extended warranty for about $3000-$4000. (It's basically a complete extension of the new car warranty).

The German brands offer only a 4 or 5 year extension (for about the same price), and those have lots of meaningful exceptions, like the audio system and lots of electronics, and lots of little things that go wrong like the tire pressure monitors and several hardware thingys. They went through the warranty with a fine tooth comb to make exclusions of things that are trouble prone and expensive. It pretty shameful.
I have owned pre-owned cars from all German "luxury" brands and never had a CPO claim denied. Most of the claims were for well-known and fairly minor weaknesses of the particular cars/years (e.g. ignition coils on the 2007 VR6, change over valves for early 991s, noisy air-suspension struts on Audi's).

LarryAllen
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by LarryAllen » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:24 pm

snackdog wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
JD Power says the Koreans are most reliable. MB is above average. Lexus and Toyota are average. Audi is appalling.

Image
I am surprised Rover isn't at the very bottom. Lol. My neighbor has one. I think they are personal friends with the tow truck driver by now.

sambb
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by sambb » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:26 pm

never had a problem with many CPO cars - BMW, porsche, and even the new exotic programs

investorpeter
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by investorpeter » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm

LarryAllen wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:24 pm
snackdog wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
JD Power says the Koreans are most reliable. MB is above average. Lexus and Toyota are average. Audi is appalling.

Image
I am surprised Rover isn't at the very bottom. Lol. My neighbor has one. I think they are personal friends with the tow truck driver by now.
These results are for the JD Power Initial Quality Survey which surveys owners for problems after 90 days of purchase of a new car.

There is another JD survey that occurs after 3 years called the JD Dependability Study which is perhaps more relevant for considering quality of used cars. In that study, Lexus comes out at the top. The top five for the 2017 study (2014 cars):

1) Lexus
2) Porshce
3) Toyota
4) Buick
5) Mercedes Benz

http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study/Ve ... ke/1881ENG

rgs92
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by rgs92 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:26 pm

Sorry, I guess the BMW extended warranty has gone to 7 years after I looked into it some years ago.
With Mercedes, the battery in the tire pressure monitoring system died under warranty, and they said it would cost almost $1,000 to fix, so they disabled it to avoid constant warnings (they said this was a common thing to do).
After 6 or 7 years all around 60,000 miles, when the warranty expired, these things happened on my 2 Mercedes from the early/mid 2000s:
- The "PreSafe" failed (it locks up seat belts and moves your seat upright if an imminent collision is detected); $2700 to fix (mandatory repair that must be done to prevent mistaken "limp-home" mode).
- Control Arm problem: $3000 repair.
- Some weird suspension thing: another $3000 repair.
- Power Trunk latch failed twice, over $1000 in repairs.
- Rear spring collapsed, $2000 repair.

Although under warranty and paid for, the serpentine belt failed, disabling the car and requiring it to be towed to the dealership.
So I had these repairs plus extended warranty costs.

There were several other weird things that had to be fixed and paid for, but these are the ones that are at the top of my memory just now.

Dilbydog
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Dilbydog » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:39 pm

Are you remotely handy with a wrench? I have a 335i that I bought as a CPO. The only non maintenance item I had was a hung up front right caliper. Covered under CPO, and BMW replaced the caliper and pads and rotors up front as part of the repair. Beyond that i’ve have taken care of everything myself. Mostly oil changes, fluid flush’s, brakes, etc. Of you don’t mind turning a wrench from time to time, there isn’t anymore expense than I’ve had in my previous American and Japanese vehicles. IE, brakes and rotors with BMW branded components are less than $500 if you do it yourself. Go OEM with Akibonos (SP) you can get it done around $300.

ETadvisor
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by ETadvisor » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:50 pm

lakja wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:44 pm
I’ve owned two bmw’s and will continue to do so for the unforeseeable future because they are an absolute blast to drive.

Currently, I drive a CPO 2015 BMW X5. The new CPO extends the warranty to 5 years and unlimited mileage, so you’re covered for 5 years from the original sales date on warranty work. Any out-of-pocrket costs at the dealer will be expensive, but you can find a decent independent shop for cheaper.

Maintenance cost at the dealer is expensive, but you’re really only looking at two oil changes a year, wipers, spark plugs every 60k, brakes every 45-60k at $800-$1200 at an Indy shop, and tires every 30-45k. I just bought the 6 year/100k platinum maintenance plan for $2300 for all the oil changes, brakes, and plugs. I still have to pay for tires.

I believe the highest expense is still depreciation cost especially after the car hits over 100k miles, so in my situation I’m buying a used car at 45k and then selling it at 10k for a total loss of 35k.

Now, insurance cost for me is $300/6 months, personal property tax is $1200/year, and gas cost is around $2800/year for premium gas.

Edit: If you’re buying based on cost of ownership, clearly a German luxury car is not going to be the cheapest to own, that’s not why you own one.
Definetly do not hold myself out to be a car maintenance guru, but I believe there is more than this. Timing belt?
Last edited by ETadvisor on Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Blueskies123
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Blueskies123 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:51 pm

investorpeter wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm
LarryAllen wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:24 pm
snackdog wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
JD Power says the Koreans are most reliable. MB is above average. Lexus and Toyota are average. Audi is appalling.

Image
I am surprised Rover isn't at the very bottom. Lol. My neighbor has one. I think they are personal friends with the tow truck driver by now.
These results are for the JD Power Initial Quality Survey which surveys owners for problems after 90 days of purchase of a new car.

There is another JD survey that occurs after 3 years called the JD Dependability Study which is perhaps more relevant for considering quality of used cars. In that study, Lexus comes out at the top. The top five for the 2017 study (2014 cars):

1) Lexus
2) Porshce
3) Toyota
4) Buick
5) Mercedes Benz

http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study/Ve ... ke/1881ENG

To me JDP quality reporting is worthless. I want to know how they hold up after the warranty has expired.

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Blueskies123
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Blueskies123 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:53 pm


cantos
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by cantos » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:02 pm

A beemer out of warranty will cost at least $1,000/yr to maintain. Plan for that! To compound that, if you visit the dealer while IN-warranty, they will find stuff such that your total bill is $1,000.
My BMW 325i after warranty had, until I got sick of paying for it and gladly got rid of it on craiglist, issues including:
Control arms (multiple times)
Water pump
Seizing brake pads/calipers (while I was driving. Car began to shudder uncontrollably/not safe. Ridiculous for a car part to fail that bad suddenly)
Window regulators
Ignition

And that's just off the top of my head.

kjvmartin
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by kjvmartin » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:20 pm

Buster65 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:29 pm
I was thinking of buying a Certified pre owed vehicle from one of the "luxury" german manufacturers. My local mechanic says owning these cars after their warranty can be costly. He says stick with Japanese brands. I'm wondering if this is a dated school of thought of if this still holds true today?
Former long term coworker bought a series of pre-owned BMW 7s for his rather long highway commute. He loved the ride, but his hobby became tracking down this one part, can't remember exactly, that he was constantly wearing through in part of the front end. It was a rather expensive part, but he would visit junk yards and shop around online to save money. I suppose it was worth it for him, but it would not be worth it to me to have to deal with it. His words:

"They engineer them to drive and ride well with very little care for how long anything will last in the process"

LarryAllen
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by LarryAllen » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:26 pm

investorpeter wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm

These results are for the JD Power Initial Quality Survey which surveys owners for problems after 90 days of purchase of a new car.

There is another JD survey that occurs after 3 years called the JD Dependability Study which is perhaps more relevant for considering quality of used cars. In that study, Lexus comes out at the top. The top five for the 2017 study (2014 cars):

1) Lexus
2) Porshce
3) Toyota
4) Buick
5) Mercedes Benz

http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study/Ve ... ke/1881ENG

Yes, good link. Thanks. That's more important than first 90 days but interesting the Korean companies are doing so good... at least the first 90 days.

randomguy
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by randomguy » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:04 pm

3504PIR wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:50 pm
I'm not a fan of buying used in this case. I've owned 3 BMWs and each has been a great car, but things begin to go wrong or need replacing after 5 or 6 years. If I was buying a 2 year old used luxury car, I'd get a Lexus.
The idea is you sell your CPO car when it hits the 5-7 year mark (i.e. whenever the warranty runs out) and it ends up cheaper than buying new.

If you look at the reliability/dependability surveys you will get a wide range of results after the first couple makes (pretty much every list has toyota/lexus at 1+2) depending on what they are measuring and how they are biasing the results. In several of the surveys something like replacing the transmission counts the same as your latest iphone not pairing with the car.

In the end pretty much every 10+ year old car ends up needing repairs of some sort. The difference is with a honda/toyota you walk out with a 500 dollar bill and forget about it. With you BMW you walk about with a 5k bill and whine about it:)

randomguy
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by randomguy » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:14 pm

ETadvisor wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:50 pm


Definetly do not hold myself out to be a car maintenance guru, but I believe there is more than this. Timing belt?
Most german cars don't have timing belts anymore. I think most claim the timing chain they use is good for the life of the engine. You would have to check your particular brand/engine combo but most of the things on the schedule are check something or apply grease. Every 30/60k you change some transmission fluid and sometimes spark plugs.

denovo
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by denovo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:40 am

Buster65 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:29 pm
I was thinking of buying a Certified pre owed vehicle from one of the "luxury" german manufacturers. My local mechanic says owning these cars after their warranty can be costly. He says stick with Japanese brands. I'm wondering if this is a dated school of thought of if this still holds true today?
Why do you want a german car?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

harrington
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by harrington » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:35 am

I would never own a BMW again once the warranty is up. This is funny....I own a 2012 Fiat which is last in JD Power ratings and it has been the most reliable car I have ever owned :?

Swansea
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Swansea » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:41 am

randomguy wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:14 pm
ETadvisor wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:50 pm


Definetly do not hold myself out to be a car maintenance guru, but I believe there is more than this. Timing belt?
Most german cars don't have timing belts anymore. I think most claim the timing chain they use is good for the life of the engine. You would have to check your particular brand/engine combo but most of the things on the schedule are check something or apply grease. Every 30/60k you change some transmission fluid and sometimes spark plugs.
BMW cars have used timing chains in both my models (oldest is 1998). I think they stopped using timing belts quite some time ago.

Frisco Kid
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Frisco Kid » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:54 am

In the past no question the German brands were more expensive to maintain. My gut tells me as ALL cars become more complex/expensive seemingly on a yearly basis car maintenance will be expensive REGARDLESS of what brand you drive. Parts are more expensive as is labor and it takes longer to perform just about any maintenance task. Competent indy shops around where I live are just as expensive as the dealership. This brings me to a buy what you want mentality as long as you can afford it as future costs clearly seem to be heading in a run away train direction. Talking maintenance only here, depreciation is another issue entirely.

NextMil
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by NextMil » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:41 am

I love german cars. Find a good independent mechanic first and they can tell you what models to avoid etc. Why go certified? People turn in leases all the time. See if you can snag one within the warranty and before they make it CPO, because all you are paying for is a battery of tests on a vehicle that is still likely under warranty.

I snagged one with 8k miles on it that was three years old, it is now ten years old and still looks great and drives like a dream. What another poster said about dropping a few $k into every year is true, but with no car payment that is less of a concern in keeping your new toy on the road.

wrongfunds
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by wrongfunds » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:52 am

Lexus lists what is NOT covered in their warranty. I think tires and brakes and similar consumables are the only items listed which are NOT covered. This type of warranty is called "exclusionary warranty". If manufacturer does NOT have that type of warranty, it is pretty useless as used car warranty. Don't waste your money on that type.

The inclusion list could be pages long but it still does not match the exclusion list warranty.

soccerrules
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by soccerrules » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:48 pm

My next "luxury" car will probably be a Lexus. I have owned 3 European cars from 2 different manufacturers.

My standard line when sending them to the shop " It will be at least $1,000 bucks" each trip.

And it is. :?

Many owners of these vehicles say -- "don;t buy one unless you know what you are getting yourself into, they are not cheap to drive, but fun."

Once the 2 European cars we have finally die (an 07 and 10) - I will probably not own another.
Don't let your outflow exceed your income or your upkeep will be your downfall.

genefl
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by genefl » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:10 pm

It's been several years, so this may not be up to date, but for me:

Mercedes "A" oil change: $450.
Mercedes "B" oil change $250.

Independent mechanic: $350/$175 respectively.

My Mercedes had "check" light sensors going off all the time. Usually all minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. The center console AC vent motor broke and the dealer quoted $1500 just to get to the part to diagnose.

Lexus oil change at the dealer: about $100.
Lexus maintenance: they have Toyota's bones. They just keep running and have little maintenance issues. When they do, it's less expensive to service than their German counterparts.

Like others have said, the German luxury vehicles are expensive to own out of warranty. If you really want one, I'd strongly consider doing it with a lease. (but that's SOOO anti-boglehead.... :)

UALflyer
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by UALflyer » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:03 pm

rgs92 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm
Lexus lets you buy an 8 year CPO bumper-to-bumper extended warranty for about $3000-$4000. (It's basically a complete extension of the new car warranty).
Doesn't look like it. Here is a link to Lexus' certified vehicle service agreement, which is an optional extended warranty that you can purchase on certified vehicles: https://www.sc.toyotafinancial.com/web/ ... ochure.pdf

As you can clearly see, it is not exclusionary, but is a named components warranty, which is exactly the way that every other manufacturer out there does this.
The German brands offer only a 4 or 5 year extension (for about the same price)
The price depends on the exact vehicle that you are considering, its trim, and whom you are buying it from, so this is a pretty meaningless statement.
and those have lots of meaningful exceptions, like the audio system and lots of electronics, and lots of little things that go wrong like the tire pressure monitors and several hardware thingys. They went through the warranty with a fine tooth comb to make exclusions of things that are trouble prone and expensive. It pretty shameful.

Read the fine print.
Lexus uses the exact same approach (see the brochure above).

UALflyer
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by UALflyer » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:12 pm

genefl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:10 pm
It's been several years, so this may not be up to date, but for me:

Mercedes "A" oil change: $450.
Mercedes "B" oil change $250.

Independent mechanic: $350/$175 respectively.

My Mercedes had "check" light sensors going off all the time. Usually all minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. The center console AC vent motor broke and the dealer quoted $1500 just to get to the part to diagnose.

Lexus oil change at the dealer: about $100.
Lexus maintenance: they have Toyota's bones. They just keep running and have little maintenance issues. When they do, it's less expensive to service than their German counterparts.

Like others have said, the German luxury vehicles are expensive to own out of warranty. If you really want one, I'd strongly consider doing it with a lease. (but that's SOOO anti-boglehead.... :)
Mercedes' A service is the cheaper one, which is a full synthetic oil change and a few checks. Mercedes dealers here charge about $130 for it, and, depending on the vehicle and the year, it is recommended to be done every 10K-13K miles/12 months. Indy's here charge $100 for it.

When you are comparing Lexus' oil changes, are you talking about conventional or full synthetic oil changes?

Mercedes' B service is essentially other cars' equivalent of a 30K/60/90K etc... mile service. The cost depends on what exactly is being done.

genefl
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by genefl » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:47 pm

UALflyer wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:12 pm
genefl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:10 pm
It's been several years, so this may not be up to date, but for me:

Mercedes "A" oil change: $450.
Mercedes "B" oil change $250.

Independent mechanic: $350/$175 respectively.

My Mercedes had "check" light sensors going off all the time. Usually all minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. The center console AC vent motor broke and the dealer quoted $1500 just to get to the part to diagnose.

Lexus oil change at the dealer: about $100.
Lexus maintenance: they have Toyota's bones. They just keep running and have little maintenance issues. When they do, it's less expensive to service than their German counterparts.

Like others have said, the German luxury vehicles are expensive to own out of warranty. If you really want one, I'd strongly consider doing it with a lease. (but that's SOOO anti-boglehead.... :)
Mercedes' A service is the cheaper one, which is a full synthetic oil change and a few checks. Mercedes dealers here charge about $130 for it, and, depending on the vehicle and the year, it is recommended to be done every 10K-13K miles/12 months. Indy's here charge $100 for it.

When you are comparing Lexus' oil changes, are you talking about conventional or full synthetic oil changes?

Mercedes' B service is essentially other cars' equivalent of a 30K/60/90K etc... mile service. The cost depends on what exactly is being done.
Thanks UALflyer, I reversed service A and B. :) I guess the cost is region specific. Your region is definitely less expensive than mine! (FL) My independent mechanic generally charged about 25% less than the Mercedes dealer. The Lexus calls for full synthetic.

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sunny_socal
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by sunny_socal » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:13 pm

genefl wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:10 pm
It's been several years, so this may not be up to date, but for me:

Mercedes "A" oil change: $450.
Mercedes "B" oil change $250.

Independent mechanic: $350/$175 respectively.


My Mercedes had "check" light sensors going off all the time. Usually all minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. The center console AC vent motor broke and the dealer quoted $1500 just to get to the part to diagnose.

Lexus oil change at the dealer: about $100.
Lexus maintenance: they have Toyota's bones. They just keep running and have little maintenance issues. When they do, it's less expensive to service than their German counterparts.

Like others have said, the German luxury vehicles are expensive to own out of warranty. If you really want one, I'd strongly consider doing it with a lease. (but that's SOOO anti-boglehead.... :)
Wow!

Oil change at home: $30

I'll have to remind my wife how much money we're saving by having me do all the handyman/mechanic/IT/gardending stuff around the house! :beer

But back on topic, yes you should get CPO for any of those vehicles, BMW in particular.

GibsonL6s
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by GibsonL6s » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:46 pm

I bought two CPO BMWs. Fun cars to drive, brutal repair bills even with a really good independent mechanic. Rotors needed with each brake job. expensive parts and labor. I swore off them. Last three cars have been Subaru, Hyundai and Mazda. The Mazda and Subaru have a sporty drive and all three have been great to maintain cost wise.

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midareff
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by midareff » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:58 pm

LarryAllen wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:26 pm
investorpeter wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm

These results are for the JD Power Initial Quality Survey which surveys owners for problems after 90 days of purchase of a new car.

There is another JD survey that occurs after 3 years called the JD Dependability Study which is perhaps more relevant for considering quality of used cars. In that study, Lexus comes out at the top. The top five for the 2017 study (2014 cars):

1) Lexus
2) Porshce
3) Toyota
4) Buick
5) Mercedes Benz

http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study/Ve ... ke/1881ENG

Yes, good link. Thanks. That's more important than first 90 days but interesting the Korean companies are doing so good... at least the first 90 days.
5 years into my Benz C350. One tail light replaced under warranty as it developed a short. Conveniently shorted the day before a scheduled service so the dealer handled it with the PM. By far the best car I ever had, have a 2018 AMG C63S on order to replace it.

randomguy
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by randomguy » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:00 pm

UALflyer wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:03 pm
rgs92 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm
Lexus lets you buy an 8 year CPO bumper-to-bumper extended warranty for about $3000-$4000. (It's basically a complete extension of the new car warranty).
Doesn't look like it. Here is a link to Lexus' certified vehicle service agreement, which is an optional extended warranty that you can purchase on certified vehicles: https://www.sc.toyotafinancial.com/web/ ... ochure.pdf

As you can clearly see, it is not exclusionary, but is a named components warranty, which is exactly the way that every other manufacturer out there does this.
The German brands offer only a 4 or 5 year extension (for about the same price)
The price depends on the exact vehicle that you are considering, its trim, and whom you are buying it from, so this is a pretty meaningless statement.
and those have lots of meaningful exceptions, like the audio system and lots of electronics, and lots of little things that go wrong like the tire pressure monitors and several hardware thingys. They went through the warranty with a fine tooth comb to make exclusions of things that are trouble prone and expensive. It pretty shameful.

Read the fine print.
Lexus uses the exact same approach (see the brochure above).
Is that a CPO program or an extended warranty? They are not the same. Extended warranties tend to be run by 3rd parties and cobranded by the automaker. They tend to have a lot more exclusions while the CPO functions more like your bumper to bumper. As always read the docs before paying for something.

NHcpa
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by NHcpa » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:52 pm

Love this website! Asked all my investment/retirement questions and now this thread... I have been looking at used certified BMW’s now for 2 months. This to replace my wife’s 2004 (bought new for $30k) Highlander. When I showed my wife a used X1, her first reaction was aren’t they expensive to repair? My reply was, “you mean more than than the Highlander”? Every 25k, new brake calipers ($600 each front/rear) and transmission out at 80k miles for $4200. And this at a local shop. So it’s the old adage, depending on your experience, you either swear allegiance or swear at your ride. This said, I’m still looking at the X1, 5k or so miles (save thousands over new) and get the warranty.

NextMil
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by NextMil » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:37 am

Again, skip the CPO, and just get a used one under warranty. Just make sure you get all the known issues addressed in the final year of warranty, and you can find those on the countless forums and blogs devoted to these cars.

As for Lexus vs German, lexus is cheaper to maintain, but its just not the same in the performance front. So if you want it for status symbol or for just a luxury ride and you dont care about performance I would go Lexus, but if you care about performance...

I have two luxury german vehicles in the garage that are 10 and 11 years old. I do preventative maintenance, and have a great indy mechanic. I think the repairs are largely overblown, unless of course, you try to avoid doing repairs and you don't keep up with their maintenance.

UALflyer
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by UALflyer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:08 am

randomguy wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:00 pm
UALflyer wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:03 pm
rgs92 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm
Lexus lets you buy an 8 year CPO bumper-to-bumper extended warranty for about $3000-$4000. (It's basically a complete extension of the new car warranty).
Doesn't look like it. Here is a link to Lexus' certified vehicle service agreement, which is an optional extended warranty that you can purchase on certified vehicles: https://www.sc.toyotafinancial.com/web/ ... ochure.pdf

As you can clearly see, it is not exclusionary, but is a named components warranty, which is exactly the way that every other manufacturer out there does this.
The German brands offer only a 4 or 5 year extension (for about the same price)
The price depends on the exact vehicle that you are considering, its trim, and whom you are buying it from, so this is a pretty meaningless statement.
and those have lots of meaningful exceptions, like the audio system and lots of electronics, and lots of little things that go wrong like the tire pressure monitors and several hardware thingys. They went through the warranty with a fine tooth comb to make exclusions of things that are trouble prone and expensive. It pretty shameful.

Read the fine print.
Lexus uses the exact same approach (see the brochure above).
Is that a CPO program or an extended warranty? They are not the same. Extended warranties tend to be run by 3rd parties and cobranded by the automaker. They tend to have a lot more exclusions while the CPO functions more like your bumper to bumper. As always read the docs before paying for something.
The post to which I was responding said "Lexus lets you buy an 8 year CPO bumper-to-bumper extended warranty." That is incorrect, as no manufacturer out there offers same as new bumper to bumper (also known as exclusionary) extended warranties on any of their vehicles, regardless of whether they are CPO or not.

As long as a car is not a CPO (can be used, but can't be a CPO) and is still within the original 4 year/50,000 warranty, Mercedes will actually sell you an extended limited warranty, which is an exclusionary warranty, but is still less comprehensive than its original bumper to bumper warranty.
Last edited by UALflyer on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

wrongfunds
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:16 am

As far as I can see, Lexus CPO looks like exclusion warranty. I had shopped for it in 2012 and I have no current experience. Personally, any other type of warranty is no use to me. I almost never buy extended warranty to begin with.

=======================
WARRANTY
Lexus confidently stands behind these exceptional vehicles with the L/Certified Limited Warranty,* when combined with the new-vehicle Basic Warranty, can provide up to six years of vehicle warranty coverage. Mileage is unlimited. The L/Certified Limited Warranty offers many of the coverage benefits and privileges new-car buyers receive. To find out what is and isn't covered, see below or visit your Lexus dealer for complete details.

UNDER WARRANTY
The L/Certified Limited Warranty* includes coverage for a complimentary loaner car,* Roadside Assistance* and Trip Interruption Service. Warranty is valid for a minimum of two years/unlimited mileage after the expiration of 4-year/50,000 mile new-vehicle Basic Warranty, or two years from your L/Certified purchase or lease date, whichever occurs later. Mileage is unlimited. There is no deductible: Repairs made under this warranty will be made at no cost to you. Except for excluded components (see below), this warranty covers any repair or replacement of components that fail under normal use due to a defect in materials or workmanship, such as: engine, transmission, steering, brakes (excluding rotors and pads), fuel system, cooling, A/C and heating systems, electrical, and restraint systems.

EXCLUDED COMPONENTS
The following component groups are excluded from coverage under the L/Certified Limited Warranty: standard upkeep items, wear and tear items, some parts of body and interior, accessories, and some other components. Please see the L/Certified Limited Warranty Supplement and Roadside Assistance Guide or your Lexus dealer for details.
===================

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fredflinstone
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by fredflinstone » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:18 am

Nothing wrong with buying a luxury car, but Hondas and Toyotas get the job done just fine. I tried out a BMW and an Audi and didn't feel any tingles. Ended up buying a Honda CRV, which works just fine. At the end of the day, it's just a car.

Leemiller
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by Leemiller » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:09 am

We bought a CPO Mercedes in the fall, now we are planning a second one to replace our Honda. So far it has been a great car and worth the upgrade.

drdrgolf
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by drdrgolf » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:28 am

Bought a CPO MB in December '15. I traded my 2011 Lexus RX350 and couldn't be happier. The MB was a Coke executives program car and had 3800 miles on it. The new car came with a warranty through 2018 and the new car is a technologically brilliant auto. It is far superior to my Lexus, imo, and will be a joy to drive for many years to come.
I purchased a $1000. maintenance add-on and thru 2 service intervals it has cost me zero for service.
Dominic
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UALflyer
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by UALflyer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:34 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:16 am
As far as I can see, Lexus CPO looks like exclusion warranty.
Lexus' CPO warranty, is exclusionary warranty (although it is still less comprehensive than the original 4 year warranty), as it excludes, for instance, vacuum hoses, lines and tubes, heating hoses, batteries, body panels and hinges, carpet, headliner, dash cover and pad, door trim, handles and fabric, chrome, sheet metals, shiny metals, clutch friction disk and pressure plate, interior and exterior trim and moldings (including cup holders, ash trays, covers and vents), nuts, bolts, clips, retainers and fasteners, etc...

Lexus' CPO optional extended warranty is not exclusionary, but is a named components warranty, which is the way that every manufacturer out there handles it.

Mercedes' ELW (Extended Limited Warranty) is also an exclusionary warranty (although, just like with Lexus, it is still less comprehensive than the original 4 year warranty. Lexus' warranty is slightly better in some respects and slightly worse in others), but it is not available for CPO's. Mercedes' CPO warranty is a named components warranty, so it is worse than Lexus' CPO warranty, which is exclusionary. Just like with Lexus, Mercedes' CPO optional extended warranty is a named components warranty.

UALflyer
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by UALflyer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:30 pm

snackdog wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
JD Power says the Koreans are most reliable. MB is above average. Lexus and Toyota are average. Audi is appalling.

Image
This chart is as useless as one gets, as it is an initial quality study, which shows problems reported in the first 90 days of ownership. This tells you absolutely nothing about the vehicles' long term reliability.

Even JD Powers' so called "long term" dependability study only examines problems experienced during the past 12 months by the owners of 3 year old vehicles, which is also the time that they are all under warranty, so it doesn't tell you all that much about their long term reliability.

Most importantly, deciding on a vehicle based on a chart showing the reliability of the entire brand is just crazy. Every manufacturer has years, models and equipment that are a lot more reliable than other years, models and equipment made by the exact same manufacturer. You have to read about the actual year, model and equipment that you are considering, as opposed to the entire brand.

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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by stimulacra » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:41 pm

I own a used Audi A4 (B8) wagon. It's not under warranty.

Repair bills are expensive (parts and labor are probably 50% higher than Japanese equivalent). And I would say that it is imperative to stay on top of maintenance and keep a moderately sizable emergency car fund for repairs.

I did my research and picked a recent well-known (to mechanics) chassis and engine configuration and joined a dedicated message board for the brand/model. VAG's 2.0 turbo is a global engine used across all of VW's/Audi's product line so the issues are well known and plenty of knowledgeable professionals familiar with the engine.

My take with German (or any car brand anywhere): they have platforms and engine configurations that are their bread and butter products that they excel in building so I'll tend to veer towards a manufacturer's global platforms and engines with a long history of engineering development and iterative generations.

mountain-lion
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by mountain-lion » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:39 pm

In addition to the issues with the JD Power study being just of initial quality, here is something else to think about:

The 2008 jd power initial quality survey looked like this:

Image

The most famously reliable (in initial quality) brands from 2008 wouldn't make the top ten today:

2008 Toyota: 104
2008 Honda: 110

2018 Jeep: 107
2018 Chrysler: 102

That's right, a 2018 Jeep is better than the famous 2008 Hondas, and a 2018 Chrysler is better than a 2008 Honda. (Out of the gates at least, the numbers of the JD Power longer-term study are similar, but I don't have them off hand.)

Go back even earlier and things are even more pronounced.

Of course, your standards may have increased as well, but in absolute metrics, modern cars with crummy reputations are way, way more reliable than the cars with terrific reputations from just a decade ago.

NHcpa
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Re: Certified Used BMW, Audi or Mercedes

Post by NHcpa » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:38 pm

Anyone use Carcomplaints.com?

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