Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

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dickyboy
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by dickyboy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:27 am

dm200 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:01 pm
dickyboy wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:54 pm
We had a similar situation with a bathroom on the far end of the house. I installed a small (6 gallon) auxiliary water heater in the basement, just below that bathroom, and it works great. I plumbed it myself and the total cost I believe was around $200 give or take. Did that about 3 years ago and no problem with it so far. It is electric and plugs into a 20 amp circuit.
How does this work? You take a shower with six gallons of hot water?
No...by the time the 6 gallons of water is depleted, the water is coming hot from the main water heater on the other end of the house. The small six gallon heater is plumbed to the hot water line, not the cold water line.

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dm200
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by dm200 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:36 am

dickyboy wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:27 am
dm200 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:01 pm
dickyboy wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:54 pm
We had a similar situation with a bathroom on the far end of the house. I installed a small (6 gallon) auxiliary water heater in the basement, just below that bathroom, and it works great. I plumbed it myself and the total cost I believe was around $200 give or take. Did that about 3 years ago and no problem with it so far. It is electric and plugs into a 20 amp circuit.
How does this work? You take a shower with six gallons of hot water?
No...by the time the 6 gallons of water is depleted, the water is coming hot from the main water heater on the other end of the house. The small six gallon heater is plumbed to the hot water line, not the cold water line.
OK - so the "hot" water line from the distant water heater runs right into the small water heater - and the first number of gallons are cold (because of distance) and then hot - so you actually have MORE hot water for the shower, etc. Right? Since you did this yourself, are you sure this setup is in full compliance with plumbing rules/safety?

Veni Vidi Decessi
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Veni Vidi Decessi » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:53 am

Couple of tips:

Don't turn on the cold water when trying to get hot. Faucets are flow-limited, so turning full-on cold/hot taps will take approximately twice as long to heat up as the hot-only tap on. Same with the shower - turn all the way to hot for fastest heat up.

On that note, all plumbing fixtures come with orifice plates or gaskets of some sort that do nothing but restrict flow (typically 1.5 gpm or so, at least in the US). You can take these out for both higher flow rates at the tap and faster heating time. I have a shower head that had a simple gasket that I removed. The water flow is wonderful. An upstream ball 1/4-turn ball valve works for flow control if you are concerned about conserving water usage.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Epsilon Delta » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:05 pm

mouses wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:59 am
I just turn the shower on while I'm brushing my teeth. Problem solved. Also the hot water helps warm up the bathroom, not a bad deal when it's 0 outside.
This is one the more expensive way of heating up a bathroom. Most of the heat :moneybag goes down the drain :( . It also risks pealing any wallpaper etc. in the vicinity. A better solution is to add a couple of heat lamps in the bathroom.

barnaclebob
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:08 pm

Veni Vidi Decessi wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:53 am
Couple of tips:

Don't turn on the cold water when trying to get hot. Faucets are flow-limited, so turning full-on cold/hot taps will take approximately twice as long to heat up as the hot-only tap on. Same with the shower - turn all the way to hot for fastest heat up.

On that note, all plumbing fixtures come with orifice plates or gaskets of some sort that do nothing but restrict flow (typically 1.5 gpm or so, at least in the US). You can take these out for both higher flow rates at the tap and faster heating time. I have a shower head that had a simple gasket that I removed. The water flow is wonderful. An upstream ball 1/4-turn ball valve works for flow control if you are concerned about conserving water usage.
Just for reference I calculate that it would take about 100ft of 1/2" ID pipe to hold 1 gallon of water. Given a 1.5gpm flow rate, anything more than 1 minute of heat up time when the temp of the pipe itself is factored in does seem excessive. I'm not sure if copper pipe is spec'd in ID or OD so it could be even longer of a run for 1 gallon of water.

open_circuit
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by open_circuit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:21 pm

barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Veni Vidi Decessi wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:53 am
Couple of tips:

Don't turn on the cold water when trying to get hot. Faucets are flow-limited, so turning full-on cold/hot taps will take approximately twice as long to heat up as the hot-only tap on. Same with the shower - turn all the way to hot for fastest heat up.

On that note, all plumbing fixtures come with orifice plates or gaskets of some sort that do nothing but restrict flow (typically 1.5 gpm or so, at least in the US). You can take these out for both higher flow rates at the tap and faster heating time. I have a shower head that had a simple gasket that I removed. The water flow is wonderful. An upstream ball 1/4-turn ball valve works for flow control if you are concerned about conserving water usage.
Just for reference I calculate that it would take about 100ft of 1/2" ID pipe to hold 1 gallon of water. Given a 1.5gpm flow rate, anything more than 1 minute of heat up time when the temp of the pipe itself is factored in does seem excessive. I'm not sure if copper pipe is spec'd in ID or OD so it could be even longer of a run for 1 gallon of water.
In my house, the hot water run to the master and guest bathrooms is over 100ft. It's nice to see your calculation roughly confirms the delay we see to flush our hot water lines on those far end points.

itstoomuch
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by itstoomuch » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:26 pm

We have low volume flush, 1.5 l/f. Our bidet seats uses more volume than the flush. A bucket holds 10 quarts, ~12 l. :greedy :idea:
Rev012718; 4 Incm stream buckets: SS+pension; dfr'd GLWB VA & FI anntys, by time & $$ laddered; Discretionary; Rentals. LTCi. Own, not asset. Tax TBT%. Early SS. FundRatio (FR) >1.1 67/70yo

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:27 pm

open_circuit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:21 pm
In my house, the hot water run to the master and guest bathrooms is over 100ft. It's nice to see your calculation roughly confirms the delay we see to flush our hot water lines on those far end points.
Are your pipes also insulated? Over those distances a lot of heat could be lost to a cold basement or crawl space.

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dm200
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by dm200 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:33 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:05 pm
mouses wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:59 am
I just turn the shower on while I'm brushing my teeth. Problem solved. Also the hot water helps warm up the bathroom, not a bad deal when it's 0 outside.
This is one the more expensive way of heating up a bathroom. Most of the heat :moneybag goes down the drain :( . It also risks pealing any wallpaper etc. in the vicinity. A better solution is to add a couple of heat lamps in the bathroom.
Sure is!

open_circuit
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by open_circuit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:08 pm

barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:27 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:21 pm
In my house, the hot water run to the master and guest bathrooms is over 100ft. It's nice to see your calculation roughly confirms the delay we see to flush our hot water lines on those far end points.
Are your pipes also insulated? Over those distances a lot of heat could be lost to a cold basement or crawl space.
No insulation in the basement, at least. That is certainly a part of the problem.

barnaclebob
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:21 pm

open_circuit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:08 pm
barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:27 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:21 pm
In my house, the hot water run to the master and guest bathrooms is over 100ft. It's nice to see your calculation roughly confirms the delay we see to flush our hot water lines on those far end points.
Are your pipes also insulated? Over those distances a lot of heat could be lost to a cold basement or crawl space.
No insulation in the basement, at least. That is certainly a part of the problem.
If the pipes are exposed or easy to get to through a drop ceiling I'd try spending an hour or two insulating them to see what it does. You might get hotter water in the bathrooms and therefore have to use less hot water thereby saving energy.

open_circuit
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by open_circuit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:22 pm

barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:21 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:08 pm
barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:27 pm
open_circuit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:21 pm
In my house, the hot water run to the master and guest bathrooms is over 100ft. It's nice to see your calculation roughly confirms the delay we see to flush our hot water lines on those far end points.
Are your pipes also insulated? Over those distances a lot of heat could be lost to a cold basement or crawl space.
No insulation in the basement, at least. That is certainly a part of the problem.
If the pipes are exposed or easy to get to through a drop ceiling I'd try spending an hour or two insulating them to see what it does. You might get hotter water in the bathrooms and therefore have to use less hot water thereby saving energy.
Yep, I'll probably do this before I finish out the basement this year. Everything is exposed right now. I'm building an impressive "to do" list before I close in the ceiling.

wrongfunds
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:21 pm

If you ever have spent any time in 3rd world country, people routinely take shower with six gallons of room temperature water.
You take a shower with six gallons of hot water?

trueson1
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by trueson1 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:33 pm

eye.surgeon wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:44 pm
I have a hot water recirculator for my rather large house since it was built and it works great. Without that it would take 5 minutes for hot water to get to the master bedroom shower. That's your solution, will cost you a few hundred. The pump itself is about $300.
I agree. I have a recirculator in my 3200 sq ft house with 3 bathrooms. I never have to wait more than 5-10 secs for hot water on any sink or tub. it is great.

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dm200
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by dm200 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:42 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:21 pm
If you ever have spent any time in 3rd world country, people routinely take shower with six gallons of room temperature water.
You take a shower with six gallons of hot water?
Absolutely correct. Growing up on farm - we did always have indoor plumbing, BUT water (especially hot water) was conserved and had a bathtub and not a shower. I have become "wasteful" (like most Americans) of hot and long shower.

SittingOnTheFence
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by SittingOnTheFence » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:58 pm

Ranch style house. Water heater in basement. I installed a return line from far bathroom hot water line back to drain of the hot water heater (~65 ft). You can find details on this method by searching for 'hot water gravity recirculating loop'. I did not install a pump. I've installed this system twice. In my prior house it was two story and worked extremely well. In current house with only one story there is less of a gravity flow, it really needs more of a drop. It works 'ok'. A pump would certainly help in this house but I'm not inclined to fool with it since the current system is maintenance free. Hot water delivery has gone from 3-4 min to 10-20 seconds. The key to setting this up is to have a hot water tank significantly lower than the line. In my ranch, this is only a few feet so not as effective as in 2 story house w/ tank in basement.

The return line should not be insulated in order to facilitate a temperature drop causing the water to flow through the pipe. So there is a certain inefficiency as a trade off to the efficiency of saving water.

Nowizard
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Nowizard » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:57 pm

Our home has three water heaters and a continually circulating hot water system that provides instant hot water everywhere. It was probably expensive when the house was built but is probably the most preferred feature of the entire house. There are less expensive ways to do this such as have been mentioned by others but waiting for hot water in the shower or at the kitchen sink is tedious.

Tim

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Easy Rhino » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:13 pm

the recirc was only $500 installed? I thought it was more. I didn't knwo it would make your cold water warmer either.

our master shower is farthest point from the water heater. Shower takes a couple minutes to warm up (a low flow 1.5gal faucet) and the bathroom sink would take even longer.

Also I'm cheap, and also we're generally in a drought.

I have a bucket I fill up in the shower with warming water. I use the bucket to water the flowers outside.

If we only want warm sink water, then I'll turn on the shower maximum hot to let it heat up faster, and also collect water in the bucket.

bagelhead
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by bagelhead » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:07 pm

eye.surgeon wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:44 pm
I have a hot water recirculator for my rather large house since it was built and it works great. Without that it would take 5 minutes for hot water to get to the master bedroom shower. That's your solution, will cost you a few hundred. The pump itself is about $300.
This is a preferred solution. But the biggest potential problem is that the hot water is being pumped back to the water heater via the cold water lines. This non-potable water would appear to re-enter the refrigerator drinking water. Please see the diagram:

https://dsplumbing.ca/drains-sewers/hom ... g-diagram/

Can any plumbing experts weigh in?

BIGal
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by BIGal » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:11 pm

I installed a recirculating pump in July of 2013.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E ... UTF8&psc=1
This unit has done exactly what I expected and is something I always recommend to friends who have the same problems. Ours it set from 7 to 10am and from 9 to 11pm for run times so it doesn't run that many hours during the day. The unit price is around $200 and I would get a quote on installation costs. As I said, I installed mine using the "shark bite" fittings so no soldering of pipe was necessary. Works great and has been since 2013.

neilpilot
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by neilpilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:15 pm

bagelhead wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:07 pm

This is a preferred solution. But the biggest potential problem is that the hot water is being pumped back to the water heater via the cold water lines. This non-potable water would appear to re-enter the refrigerator drinking water. Please see the diagram:

https://dsplumbing.ca/drains-sewers/hom ... g-diagram/

Can any plumbing experts weigh in?
Water from your circulation loop is potable water. Where do you get the idea that it's non-potable?

Also, even if you piped hot water to the refrigerator (and I would not), the typical flow to the ice maker and/or drinking dispenser is so small that it would not likely receive hot water.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Epsilon Delta » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:32 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:15 pm
Water from your circulation loop is potable water. Where do you get the idea that it's non-potable?
The potability of hot water is debatable. It is at least a function of the details of the house's plumbing. There are certainly places you should not drink from the hot water supply.

If the house is old enough that the plumbing contains lead then hot (or formerly hot) water should not be consumed since hot water dissolves more lead.

If you live in the UK the cold kitchen tap is supplied directly from the mains and the rest of the water comes from an open storage tank in the loft. Only water from the cold kitchen tap should be consumed. This is probably not unique to the UK; I don't know all the worlds plumbing codes.

There are probably other circumstances where hot water is known to be bad, or at least suspect.

General the less pipe drinking water flows through the less chances are that something can go wrong. For that reason feeding the kitchen cold tap (and ice maker) directly after the meter and using that as potable water is best practice, even if it's overkill in many cases.

neilpilot
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by neilpilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:21 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:32 pm
neilpilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:15 pm
Water from your circulation loop is potable water. Where do you get the idea that it's non-potable?
The potability of hot water is debatable. It is at least a function of the details of the house's plumbing. There are certainly places you should not drink from the hot water supply.

If the house is old enough that the plumbing contains lead then hot (or formerly hot) water should not be consumed since hot water dissolves more lead.

If you live in the UK the cold kitchen tap is supplied directly from the mains and the rest of the water comes from an open storage tank in the loft. Only water from the cold kitchen tap should be consumed. This is probably not unique to the UK; I don't know all the worlds plumbing codes.

There are probably other circumstances where hot water is known to be bad, or at least suspect.

General the less pipe drinking water flows through the less chances are that something can go wrong. For that reason feeding the kitchen cold tap (and ice maker) directly after the meter and using that as potable water is best practice, even if it's overkill in many cases.
Sure there are exceptions. Maybe it isn't safe to drink the cold water in Gary. I worked in Nanjing and wouldn't drink the water there either.

And, duh, I'm only saying that the water off the water heater is potable in homes where potable water is fed to the tank. But realistically, there's no practical issue in the ice made from a cold water tap that might have some hot water infiltration due to a circulating system, in a modern home, in a house in the USA that receives safe city water.

edge
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by edge » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm

You can get a water circulator.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Epsilon Delta » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:18 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:21 pm
Epsilon Delta wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:32 pm

If the house is old enough that the plumbing contains lead then hot (or formerly hot) water should not be consumed since hot water dissolves more lead.

If you live in the UK the cold kitchen tap is supplied directly from the mains and the rest of the water comes from an open storage tank in the loft. Only water from the cold kitchen tap should be consumed. This is probably not unique to the UK; I don't know all the worlds plumbing codes.
Sure there are exceptions. Maybe it isn't safe to drink the cold water in Gary. I worked in Nanjing and wouldn't drink the water there either.

And, duh, I'm only saying that the water off the water heater is potable in homes where potable water is fed to the tank. But realistically, there's no practical issue in the ice made from a cold water tap that might have some hot water infiltration due to a circulating system, in a modern home, in a house in the USA that receives safe city water.
The exceptions I know of are over half the houses in the US and all the houses in the UK. Seems that don't drink the hot water is more the rule than the exception. Although the danger involved is quite small, almost undetectable for individuals, but over millions of people you will get a few more deaths or a little more brain damage. Even in Flint you can't trace particular cases to the water supply.

SittingOnTheFence
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by SittingOnTheFence » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:30 pm

bagelhead wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:07 pm

This is a preferred solution. But the biggest potential problem is that the hot water is being pumped back to the water heater via the cold water lines. This non-potable water would appear to re-enter the refrigerator drinking water. Please see the diagram:

https://dsplumbing.ca/drains-sewers/hom ... g-diagram/

Can any plumbing experts weigh in?
I didn't look at your diagram but there is certainly no reason to do what you described. A recirc line is simply an extension of the hot water line from the point it ends at your far away bathroom and continues back to the water tank. Think of it as a race track for hot water only. It starts at the tank, runs through the house and returns back to the tank. It starts it's journey exiting the tank at the top, and returns to the tank, entering at the bottom. Cold water is not part of that loop. If it is, somebody did it wrong. BTW, I've been drinking hot tap water for decades. It's a great 'throat lubricant' first thing in the morn. This is while I'm waiting for the tea water to boil.

wrongfunds
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by wrongfunds » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:15 pm

It starts at the tank, runs through the house and returns back to the tank.
In normal case, there is no return back to the hot water tank. The cold water enters the tank directly from supply and hot water pipe eventually ends at the farthest tap.

neilpilot
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by neilpilot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:21 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:15 pm
It starts at the tank, runs through the house and returns back to the tank.
In normal case, there is no return back to the hot water tank. The cold water enters the tank directly from supply and hot water pipe eventually ends at the farthest tap.
As I think has already been discussed, a common circulation system will return the hot water into the tank's bottom drain. If you are fortunate enough to have a 2 story home with the tank on the ground floor, this circulation will typically be by gravity from an upstairs sink and a pump isn't required.

wrongfunds
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by wrongfunds » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:38 pm

But aren't you talking about adding brand new extra pipe from one end to another? May be I am missing the fundamentals here.

michaeljc70
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by michaeljc70 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:40 pm

barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Veni Vidi Decessi wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:53 am
Couple of tips:

Don't turn on the cold water when trying to get hot. Faucets are flow-limited, so turning full-on cold/hot taps will take approximately twice as long to heat up as the hot-only tap on. Same with the shower - turn all the way to hot for fastest heat up.

On that note, all plumbing fixtures come with orifice plates or gaskets of some sort that do nothing but restrict flow (typically 1.5 gpm or so, at least in the US). You can take these out for both higher flow rates at the tap and faster heating time. I have a shower head that had a simple gasket that I removed. The water flow is wonderful. An upstream ball 1/4-turn ball valve works for flow control if you are concerned about conserving water usage.
Just for reference I calculate that it would take about 100ft of 1/2" ID pipe to hold 1 gallon of water. Given a 1.5gpm flow rate, anything more than 1 minute of heat up time when the temp of the pipe itself is factored in does seem excessive. I'm not sure if copper pipe is spec'd in ID or OD so it could be even longer of a run for 1 gallon of water.
It is pretty standard here in Chicago for the rooms (kitchen, baths) to be fed with 3/4" copper. Then that is branched off to the fixtures using 1/2" copper. So only the last few feet are 1/2". I would imagine that is how it is done most places as you wouldn't want a 1/2" pipe feeding a sink, toilet and shower and you wouldn't want to run 2 separate hot and 3 separate cold lines all the way from the main source.

SittingOnTheFence
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by SittingOnTheFence » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:08 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:38 pm
But aren't you talking about adding brand new extra pipe from one end to another? May be I am missing the fundamentals here.
Yes, adding brand new pipe. I am not aware of any recirc water system that would work without adding the pipe. I added about 75 ft of 1/2" copper to run from the original 3/4" supply back to the water heater. It does not work as well as my prior 2 story house but works well enough to be satisfied.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:37 pm

SittingOnTheFence wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:08 pm
wrongfunds wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:38 pm
But aren't you talking about adding brand new extra pipe from one end to another? May be I am missing the fundamentals here.
Yes, adding brand new pipe. I am not aware of any recirc water system that would work without adding the pipe. I added about 75 ft of 1/2" copper to run from the original 3/4" supply back to the water heater. It does not work as well as my prior 2 story house but works well enough to be satisfied.
There are systems that put a pump between the hot and cold supply at the offending sink. You push a button and the pump runs till the water reaches a preset temperature. The "waste" cool water in the hot water pipes goes into the cold pipe and loops back through various cold water lines to the heater at the cold water inlet.

This has been describe in prior posts in this thread. I do not like this system, but it does work.

wrongfunds
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:42 am

I too do not like that system aka re-mixing of hot water and cold water but is it just old wives tale or is the reason still valid? It is true that hot water has to travel through the tank of the heater but would it be picking anything up which will make water non-drinkable? I think the tanks have glass linear and there should not be any bad guys inside it. I personally do not use hot water for any cooking but now I am wondering if I am irrational in my thinking.

If your house is finished completely and none of the pipes are easily accessible, adding a return pipe will cost in thousands of dollars to rip apart the floor/ceiling/wall etc.

Astute listeners to venerable NPR Car Talk show should realize that this was one of the puzzle but it asked in the context of multi-story hotel complex.
The question was how come you get instant hot water in your 22nd floor Marriott room but you have to wait for hot water in your own house.

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dwickenh
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by dwickenh » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:50 am

Glad to see/find this thread. I thought I was the only one that had to wait minutes for hot water. I will put up with it because I hate to spend the money for the proposed fixes in this thread, but I feel better knowing I am not alone :shock:
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mxs
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by mxs » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:14 am

I think that water taking more than 1-2 minutes to be hot is showing that something may be wrong or extremely poorly thought out with the plumbing. I have either 1/2 or 3/4 copper running at most 25-30 feet from the water heater. I haven't timed the hot water to the farthest stretch, but I would guess that it is in the 30 to 40 second range at worst. It should be something around the amount of water in the line between the sink/shower and water heater, figuring the gallons per minute flow rate, plus a little extra for the heat loss of the piping to get warm, especially if it is run in an external wall or unheated / non-insulated space.

The time difference between the shower and sink is either a different flow rate between the two, or a sign of another problem. I would think the stretch of plumbing the shower and sink would likely be 20 feet at most, so that should be another 10 seconds if they are the same flow rate.

Bottom line : Either pay money upfront for one of the listed solutions, or run the hot water in the room before you shower as soon as you enter the room.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by jtravisdavid » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:28 am

I have a 4,600 sf house that had the same issue in the master bathroom...a recirculating pump solves the problem....mine is way older than 7 years and has had absolutely no problems...I recently plugged it into a tp link smartplug which is set to power off from 11PM to 6AM...I think the electricity used is pretty minimal anyway....

Nowizard
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Nowizard » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm

+1 for recirculating of hot water. We have three water heaters that recirculate, resulting in instant hot water. A luxury that we love, and one of the few we have.

Tim

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by michaeljc70 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:47 pm

mxs wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:14 am
I think that water taking more than 1-2 minutes to be hot is showing that something may be wrong or extremely poorly thought out with the plumbing. I have either 1/2 or 3/4 copper running at most 25-30 feet from the water heater. I haven't timed the hot water to the farthest stretch, but I would guess that it is in the 30 to 40 second range at worst. It should be something around the amount of water in the line between the sink/shower and water heater, figuring the gallons per minute flow rate, plus a little extra for the heat loss of the piping to get warm, especially if it is run in an external wall or unheated / non-insulated space.

The time difference between the shower and sink is either a different flow rate between the two, or a sign of another problem. I would think the stretch of plumbing the shower and sink would likely be 20 feet at most, so that should be another 10 seconds if they are the same flow rate.

Bottom line : Either pay money upfront for one of the listed solutions, or run the hot water in the room before you shower as soon as you enter the room.
I agree. I wonder if it just feels like minutes because they are standing there waiting for hot water. My master takes maybe 45 seconds on the sink and maybe 30 on the shower if no one has used anything on that level.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by JaneyLH » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm

We have a recirculating system. There is so much drought that I cannot imagine letting the water run and be wasted just to heat it up. Ours is 13 years old and troublefree.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by adamthesmythe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:26 pm

jtravisdavid wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:28 am
I have a 4,600 sf house that had the same issue in the master bathroom...a recirculating pump solves the problem....mine is way older than 7 years and has had absolutely no problems...I recently plugged it into a tp link smartplug which is set to power off from 11PM to 6AM...I think the electricity used is pretty minimal anyway....
The issue is not so much the electricity used by the pump but the additional energy used to keep the water in the loop hot. Heat is lost as the water is pumped around the loop and this needs to be supplied as long as the pump is running.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by CurlyDave » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:11 am

dm200 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:01 pm
How does this work? You take a shower with six gallons of hot water?
Not quite.

It is plumbed so that the hot water line feeds into the aux heater. The small amount of cold water in the line goes into the tank and mixes with the already hot water in it. The water will get slightly cooler as the 6 gallons is used and replaced with new water. Long before the entire 6 gallons is used, hot water from the main heater is entering the auxiliary and the water delivered comes back to the higher temperature.

If you have a shower with an automatic adjusting valve you probably don't notice. If you have separate hot and cold valves, some minor adjustment is necessary, but not very much.

As an engineer, I like this solution much better than retrofitting a recirculating pump. For new construction, a pump is better.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Epsilon Delta » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:55 am

CurlyDave wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:11 am
It is plumbed so that the hot water line feeds into the aux heater. The small amount of cold water in the line goes into the tank and mixes with the already hot water in it. The water will get slightly cooler as the 6 gallons is used and replaced with new water.
The internal arrangements of a water heater should ensure that incoming cold water does not mix with the hot water at the top of the tank. Once the incoming water gets hot (particularly if it gets hotter than the rest of the tank) it may start mixing, because you'll have a temperature inversion.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:15 pm

I have the water heater at one end of the house, and the master bath maybe 2/3 of the way to the other end. When I'm going to take a shower, I turn on the hot water at the sink and brush my teeth. I check the water temp every now and then until it's ready. I know the flow to set to get a good brushing time.

Other than that, I don't worry about it. I wash my hands in the cool water than comes from the hot tap. If I need hot tap water in the kitchen, I let it run for a while.
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by mxs » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:15 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:15 pm
I have the water heater at one end of the house, and the master bath maybe 2/3 of the way to the other end. When I'm going to take a shower, I turn on the hot water at the sink and brush my teeth. I check the water temp every now and then until it's ready. I know the flow to set to get a good brushing time.

Other than that, I don't worry about it. I wash my hands in the cool water than comes from the hot tap. If I need hot tap water in the kitchen, I let it run for a while.
Apparently there is some concern of hot water leaching lead or other hazardous materials into the hot water line. If you have newer copper, pvc, pex, or other newer material I wouldn't worry about it. If you are in an older house with galvanized steel and lead at all, I wouldn't use hot water for anything going into your body. I would get rid of all lead piping for that mater. Just something to think about if you use the hot water to brush your teeth with.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm

mxs wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:15 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:15 pm
I have the water heater at one end of the house, and the master bath maybe 2/3 of the way to the other end. When I'm going to take a shower, I turn on the hot water at the sink and brush my teeth. I check the water temp every now and then until it's ready. I know the flow to set to get a good brushing time.

Other than that, I don't worry about it. I wash my hands in the cool water than comes from the hot tap. If I need hot tap water in the kitchen, I let it run for a while.
Apparently there is some concern of hot water leaching lead or other hazardous materials into the hot water line. If you have newer copper, pvc, pex, or other newer material I wouldn't worry about it. If you are in an older house with galvanized steel and lead at all, I wouldn't use hot water for anything going into your body. I would get rid of all lead piping for that mater. Just something to think about if you use the hot water to brush your teeth with.
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't use water to brush my teeth at all. I do rinse the brush afterwards. We'd be talking trace amounts left on it.
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by mxs » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:22 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm
mxs wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:15 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:15 pm
I have the water heater at one end of the house, and the master bath maybe 2/3 of the way to the other end. When I'm going to take a shower, I turn on the hot water at the sink and brush my teeth. I check the water temp every now and then until it's ready. I know the flow to set to get a good brushing time.

Other than that, I don't worry about it. I wash my hands in the cool water than comes from the hot tap. If I need hot tap water in the kitchen, I let it run for a while.
Apparently there is some concern of hot water leaching lead or other hazardous materials into the hot water line. If you have newer copper, pvc, pex, or other newer material I wouldn't worry about it. If you are in an older house with galvanized steel and lead at all, I wouldn't use hot water for anything going into your body. I would get rid of all lead piping for that mater. Just something to think about if you use the hot water to brush your teeth with.
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't use water to brush my teeth at all. I do rinse the brush afterwards. We'd be talking trace amounts left on it.
I often pre-wet my brush with water, and if it is the first water used from the tap that day, it would potentially have a higher concentration of any contaminates in it. The thought is that warm water is more likely to get contaminates out of the pipes than cold water. If your pipes are modern, I wouldn't worry about it. If they are old I would at least be aware of this and use cold water instead, and if the pipes are bad I would replace them. Nothing Earth shattering, but important for young children for sure.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:08 am

mxs wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:22 pm
I often pre-wet my brush with water, and if it is the first water used from the tap that day, it would potentially have a higher concentration of any contaminates in it. The thought is that warm water is more likely to get contaminates out of the pipes than cold water. If your pipes are modern, I wouldn't worry about it. If they are old I would at least be aware of this and use cold water instead, and if the pipes are bad I would replace them. Nothing Earth shattering, but important for young children for sure.
Then you could start with cold, and switch to hot when you're done wetting the brush. Similarly one could turn off the hot and do a quick rinse with cold if desired.
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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Keepcalm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:21 am

If you have ever removed the bottom heating element of a water heater and seen how savagely disgusting the deposit buildup can be you would not drink your hot water.

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by Epsilon Delta » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:27 am

Keepcalm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:21 am
If you have ever removed the bottom heating element of a water heater and seen how savagely disgusting the deposit buildup can be you would not drink your hot water.
I'd hardly call mineral deposits savagely disgusting, but look at it the other way around. If those deposits were removed from the hot water they are still in the cold water. :twisted:

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Re: Hot Water Delay at faucet/shower far from water heater

Post by wrongfunds » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:41 am

Exactly! Those deposits will be in your stomach!

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