manual car for new teen driver

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dm200
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm

Looking at the "big picture", percentages are not as meaningful when overall occurrences of death are very low.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by likegarden » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:38 pm

My first car was also a VW Beetle with stick shift. After 2 years it needed a repair of the clutch. My wife had learned on cars with automatic transmission, and she hated to drive the Beetle to work. So we replaced it with a Plymouth Duster, was much better to drive.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by tadamsmar » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:52 pm

dm200 wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm
Looking at the "big picture", percentages are not as meaningful when overall occurrences of death are very low.
The curb weight is probably more meaningful than all the crash test ratings and optional safety features since the 2012 model year combined. So, if you ignore curb weight then you can ignore everything else and just buy a 2012 or later. That would represent consistent set of safety priorities.
Last edited by tadamsmar on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by spammagnet » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:00 pm

When a friend taught his daughter to drive on a stick shift he expressed confidence that she wouldn't couldn't let any of her friends drive the car.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by alex_686 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:29 pm

I currently drive a Mazda 5 with a manual. I would personally recommend this but I have not dug into the safety issues above. My first car was a Honda Civic with a manual. I learned to drive in a Olds Delta 88 - automatic.

So why a manual? I know thhe decsion has been made - but why? There must be some reasoning behind this preference. That being said, I can't think of any reason why one would want a mid sized vehicular with a manual.

As an aside I would not consider any SUVs for a teen driver. Yeah, it has a higher curb weight and it is always easier to make a car safe if you have extra mass to play around with. However SUVs feel safer so people tend overestimate there safety, they tend to push them a bit more, negating the extra safety.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:23 pm

Rupert wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:32 pm
To return to the OP's question, I recommend a 4-cylinder manual Toyota Tacoma. The 4 cylinder, which is not always optimum in a pickup, is perfect for a teenage boy, IMHO.
That's an innovative idea. It would handle all weather, be reliable, and carry anything one needed, especially if it had a camper shell. I'll take a look.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by toofache32 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:10 am

Do they still make manuals? What is the advantage over automatic? Other than race cars...

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dm200
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:53 am

toofache32 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:10 am
Do they still make manuals? What is the advantage over automatic? Other than race cars...
In the US, new manual transmission vehicles (personal use cars, SUVs, Minivans, pickup trucks, etc.) have become very rare. Many makes/models are not even offered with a manual transmission. Some with a manual offering are not very wise for purchase.

I am sure, however, that there are still a few good manual transmission vehicles offered.

At one time, manual transmission vehicles got better fuel economy vs. autmatic transmissions. Today, however, automatic transmissions have much improved fuel economy - so that is no longer an advantage.

If not for my wife's unwillingness/inability to drive a manual, I would prefer a manual -- but no longer a choice.

Otherwise identical vehicles with automatic transmissions are more expensive - one advantage

Some of us actually like driving a manual transmission - second advantage (for me)

This cuts two ways - few drivers today, especially younger ones, can drive a manual - few folks would borrow your car (both advantage and disadvantage)

I actually saw one of those internet "teasers" where a young woman got away from being hijacked/kidnapped because she could drive a manual and the bad guys/gals could not.

I am dating myself, but at one time (not sure today), if your battery was dead, you could push/pull start the car with a manual transmission by having it in gear and it would start. Did that a few times with my '67 VW Beetle.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:29 pm


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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by MnyGrl » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:39 pm

I learned to drive on a stick shift, and would probably own a stick shift if I didn't live in the city where people drive so aggressively that their bumpers are like an inch from mine. Especially on hills when you are trying to master that tricky release-clutch/press gas maneuver, it is hard for a new driver not to bump the person in back of you when people are so close. Something to consider.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:45 pm

MnyGrl wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:39 pm
I learned to drive on a stick shift, and would probably own a stick shift if I didn't live in the city where people drive so aggressively that their bumpers are like an inch from mine. Especially on hills when you are trying to master that tricky release-clutch/press gas maneuver, it is hard for a new driver not to bump the person in back of you when people are so close. Something to consider.
Sure - but once "mastered", you never forget.

:)

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by bloom2708 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:49 pm

Only the OP can gauge whether a "tough love" vehicle with a manual transmission and RWD would be a reasonable option.

We have 3 girls. I would rather have them focus on driving an automatic with FWD while building their experience. Teaching them to drive a manual is something I can do on the side. Our oldest daughter learned (not well) to drive a 1986 Ford F-150 with a manual.

I learned on a 1985 Ford Ranger. Manual with RWD. We get snowy winters. At times it was dicey, but you do learn to become a good driver.

I guess I wouldn't go out of my way to find a manual these days. Focus more on a reasonable sized, priced vehicle that would work in your area/climate.
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by MnyGrl » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:12 pm

dm200 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:45 pm
MnyGrl wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:39 pm
I learned to drive on a stick shift, and would probably own a stick shift if I didn't live in the city where people drive so aggressively that their bumpers are like an inch from mine. Especially on hills when you are trying to master that tricky release-clutch/press gas maneuver, it is hard for a new driver not to bump the person in back of you when people are so close. Something to consider.
Sure - but once "mastered", you never forget.

:)
Indeed. Can't wait to go back to one but it might have to wait until retirement.

The other advantage of learning on a stick is that you really have to stay focused, and you need both hands to drive, so no temptation to text or tinker with music or other things while driving. Not that any kid would ever do those things. :D

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Mudpuppy » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:13 pm

bloom2708 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:49 pm
I guess I wouldn't go out of my way to find a manual these days. Focus more on a reasonable sized, priced vehicle that would work in your area/climate.
I went out of my way to find a manual transmission. I waited nearly a month for them to ship my MT Honda Accord in from another dealership. It came just in time for my birthday. Nice little present to myself. Although had I actually been buying just for myself, I would have gotten something sportier. I went with the Accord sedan in order to ferry an older relative around.

And I will say being a female driving a MT car seems to instantly raise my "street cred" with mechanics and the like. I did have several try to buy my previous Civic coupe off me, but rarely had them try to pull one over on me.

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dm200
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:14 pm

While I believe that an experienced driver is just as safe (may be safer) with a manual transmission, an inexperienced driver may be at more risk.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Doom&Gloom » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:17 pm

MnyGrl wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:12 pm
dm200 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:45 pm
MnyGrl wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:39 pm
I learned to drive on a stick shift, and would probably own a stick shift if I didn't live in the city where people drive so aggressively that their bumpers are like an inch from mine. Especially on hills when you are trying to master that tricky release-clutch/press gas maneuver, it is hard for a new driver not to bump the person in back of you when people are so close. Something to consider.
Sure - but once "mastered", you never forget.

:)
Indeed. Can't wait to go back to one but it might have to wait until retirement.

The other advantage of learning on a stick is that you really have to stay focused, and you need both hands to drive, so no temptation to text or tinker with music or other things while driving. Not that any kid would ever do those things. :D
I think you are underestimating the dexterity of today's teenagers with their cell phones.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Halicar » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:25 pm

toofache32 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:10 am
Do they still make manuals? What is the advantage over automatic? Other than race cars...
My 2017 Honda Accord is a manual. I don't really think there are any true advantages--it's just a matter of taste and I enjoy driving it. In fact, if I'm brutally honest with myself, it's at least partly an affectation--that is, I drive a stick because I like to think of myself as the kind of person who drives a stick. :?

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:27 pm

it's just a matter of taste and I enjoy driving it. In fact, if I'm brutally honest with myself, it's at least partly an affectation--that is, I drive a stick because I like to think of myself as the kind of person who drives a stick. :?
Me too - IF it were not for my wife!

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by MarkBarb » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:29 pm

Why force them to drive a stick shift in a country where they are going extinct? Are you also looking for a hand cranked starter?

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by randomguy » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:21 pm

dm200 wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:47 pm
tadamsmar wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:32 pm
JupiterJones wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:55 pm
I think we should avoid the trap of thinking that small cars are somehow "unsafe".

Might there be a slight marginal bit of safety with a larger car?
Yep, it's marginal. The margin is a mere 500%+

Image

source: http://informedforlife.org/viewartcl.php?index=83
Of course, at least as I view the chart, there seems to be no adjustment based on other factors of death rates. It could be better or worse. For example, if otherwise safer drivers or safer localities tend to be heavier vehicles, the weight factor overstates the risk. Or, when considering other factors, the risk could be understated.



Finally, percentage could be misleading because death rates are low or very low - overall.
Yep they make very limited adjustment for the different population that is buying the cars and driving conditions (i.e. AWD tend to have higher death rate. Is that because AWD is unsafe or more people in snowy areas buy them?). The other thing is that pretty much nobody is recommending a small car. Cars like the civic, corolla and Mazda 3 are not small cars for in terms of crash danager. Things like the Fiat 500, Yaris, Spark, miata and the like are the small cars with higher death rates.



The death rate of a civic is 39. Corolla is a 43. Accord is 36, Camary is 39. Altima (i.e.a big car) is a 52. Maxima (an even bigger car) is 59. Models matter as much as size. The cars you are avoiding are things like the spark(96), Accent (104), Fiesta (83). As some people have pointed out, most SUVs do significantly better than the equivalent car (say CRV to civic). Getting one of those in a manual is tough

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by randomguy » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:25 pm

Doom&Gloom wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:17 pm
MnyGrl wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:12 pm
dm200 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:45 pm
MnyGrl wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:39 pm
I learned to drive on a stick shift, and would probably own a stick shift if I didn't live in the city where people drive so aggressively that their bumpers are like an inch from mine. Especially on hills when you are trying to master that tricky release-clutch/press gas maneuver, it is hard for a new driver not to bump the person in back of you when people are so close. Something to consider.
Sure - but once "mastered", you never forget.

:)
Indeed. Can't wait to go back to one but it might have to wait until retirement.

The other advantage of learning on a stick is that you really have to stay focused, and you need both hands to drive, so no temptation to text or tinker with music or other things while driving. Not that any kid would ever do those things. :D
I think you are underestimating the dexterity of today's teenagers with their cell phones.

In my day we had no problem driving a stick, eating food, changing CDs, and so on. Texting wouldn't be any harder. :) And no after the first 100 or so hours, you don't even have to focus. It is all instinct The one plus is that it might make it harder to let a friend drive.

And as far as forgetting, I haven't driven a stick in 20 years. I am sure it would come back eventually but I can tell that those first 10 miles would be rough.:) And I can also tell you that most stick drivers and no clue on how to drive on hills. The number of times where people rolled back into me in SF was crazy when you figure only like 5% of the cars have a stick. You rapidly learned to give the wanna be race car drivers extra room to accommodate their lack of driving skill.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Matas » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:51 pm

smitcat wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:12 pm
Our daughter did her early learning with an automatic but we quickly moved her over to a manual transmission for her first car. It took more than a couple of weekends in a very large parking lot before she was ready for the open road but with a little patience and practice she had the manual tasks covered no problem. I am very happy with that route we took as her understanding and control of the car(s) were overall better for her experience. Now that she is approaching 25 you can see how it affected her abilities to learn and control other vehicles over time.
I had the exact same experience with both my son and daughter - they learned initially on one of our cars with an automatic - and then 6-12 months or so later, learned and drove a manual transmission. When they first start driving, there's quite a bit to learn and focus upon - the basics of car control, traffic awareness, rules of the road, etc, that we (the parents) generally take for granted. Initial experience using an automatic, as much as I hate to admit it as a devout manual trans enthusiast, made the beginner's learning curve less steep and more safe. Once they had pretty well figured out basic car control, then they learned to drive a manual transmission.

I think there are several advantages to learning how to drive a manual transmission at an early age, although I will readily concede that the newer automatic transmissions are vastly improved and by most performance measures, superior to a manual.
(1) They learn more about driving and how the vehicle handles and operates.
(2) A Manual transmission likely will be better at reducing distracted driving, an increasing problem in our digitally-connected world. Hard to steer, shift, and use the smartphone at the same time! So, combined with #1 above, I think a manual might be safer.
(3) It gives them a feeling of accomplishment - few if any of their friends know how to drive a manual.
(4) Given the right car, it's a lot more fun.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Mudpuppy » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:19 pm

Matas wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:51 pm
smitcat wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:12 pm
Our daughter did her early learning with an automatic but we quickly moved her over to a manual transmission for her first car. It took more than a couple of weekends in a very large parking lot before she was ready for the open road but with a little patience and practice she had the manual tasks covered no problem. I am very happy with that route we took as her understanding and control of the car(s) were overall better for her experience. Now that she is approaching 25 you can see how it affected her abilities to learn and control other vehicles over time.
I had the exact same experience with both my son and daughter - they learned initially on one of our cars with an automatic - and then 6-12 months or so later, learned and drove a manual transmission. When they first start driving, there's quite a bit to learn and focus upon - the basics of car control, traffic awareness, rules of the road, etc, that we (the parents) generally take for granted. Initial experience using an automatic, as much as I hate to admit it as a devout manual trans enthusiast, made the beginner's learning curve less steep and more safe. Once they had pretty well figured out basic car control, then they learned to drive a manual transmission.
My dad's approach was to start us all off in a manual transmission car, but we were only allowed to drive in empty parking lots to begin with, then back country roads after we'd learned the basics. He'd also quiz us on traffic laws while he was driving. Only when he was assured we knew the traffic laws, could stay within the painted lines, and could shift and otherwise control the car were we allowed to start driving on city streets. That way, the initial training was purely on learning to control the car (without having to worry about other drivers).

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Matas » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:42 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:19 pm
Matas wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:51 pm
smitcat wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:12 pm
Our daughter did her early learning with an automatic but we quickly moved her over to a manual transmission for her first car. It took more than a couple of weekends in a very large parking lot before she was ready for the open road but with a little patience and practice she had the manual tasks covered no problem. I am very happy with that route we took as her understanding and control of the car(s) were overall better for her experience. Now that she is approaching 25 you can see how it affected her abilities to learn and control other vehicles over time.
I had the exact same experience with both my son and daughter - they learned initially on one of our cars with an automatic - and then 6-12 months or so later, learned and drove a manual transmission. When they first start driving, there's quite a bit to learn and focus upon - the basics of car control, traffic awareness, rules of the road, etc, that we (the parents) generally take for granted. Initial experience using an automatic, as much as I hate to admit it as a devout manual trans enthusiast, made the beginner's learning curve less steep and more safe. Once they had pretty well figured out basic car control, then they learned to drive a manual transmission.
My dad's approach was to start us all off in a manual transmission car, but we were only allowed to drive in empty parking lots to begin with, then back country roads after we'd learned the basics. He'd also quiz us on traffic laws while he was driving. Only when he was assured we knew the traffic laws, could stay within the painted lines, and could shift and otherwise control the car were we allowed to start driving on city streets. That way, the initial training was purely on learning to control the car (without having to worry about other drivers).
Right! I did the same thing, basically, just a few months later and after they'd first figured out, to my satisfaction, how to safely make the car turn, stop, and go. I have great memories of those parking lot training sessions, first with my son, then with my daughter. We still talk and laugh about it! Also funny is that even though son is now a club-level high performance driving instructor and occasional road racer (track, not street), daughter actually was quicker to pick up the skill of driving with the manual and clutch!
The other question is - when will you feel safe in the passenger seat as their "instructor" as they drive a manual for the first time on public roads? Different answer I suppose for every parent/child.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by JupiterJones » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:04 pm

dm200 wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:47 pm
tadamsmar wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:32 pm
JupiterJones wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:55 pm
I think we should avoid the trap of thinking that small cars are somehow "unsafe".
Might there be a slight marginal bit of safety with a larger car?
Yep, it's marginal. The margin is a mere 500%+
Of course, at least as I view the chart, there seems to be no adjustment based on other factors of death rates. It could be better or worse. For example, if otherwise safer drivers or safer localities tend to be heavier vehicles, the weight factor overstates the risk. Or, when considering other factors, the risk could be understated.

Finally, percentage could be misleading because death rates are low or very low - overall.
Right. That's the thing... a 500% difference sounds like a lot at first blush. But, in one year, that's going from 10 deaths per million for the heaviest vehicle to 50 deaths per million for the lightest.

So, worst-case-scenario, if you give up your Escalade for a Smart Car, you're going from one one-thousandth of a percent to a whopping five one-thousandths of a percent chance. Still 1-in-20,000. Not exactly a death wish there. You could probably offset the whole thing by deciding to eat more fiber or something.

And yes, correlation doesn't mean causation, and we can't be certain (from the chart) that cars of different sizes are equally-likely to get into a wreck in the first place. For example. the chart doesn't address differences in miles driven among cars of different weights. Maybe people in tiny, fuel-efficient cars drive five times as much as those in big gas-guzzlers, so a five-fold increase in yearly deaths would be expected? Or maybe those in smaller cars tend to be younger and more likely to drive recklessly compared to those in larger vehicles more suited to careful parents with children?
Stay on target...

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by IMO » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:48 pm

Concerning the tangent on car size and safety:
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopne ... y-policies

Back on topic:

I will have a teen driver in a couple years and did wonder about the concept of a manual transmission being safer SIMPLY because it is definitively much more difficult to be driving a manual transmission and texting. On the highway, doesn't matter, but in the city with stop and go, it would be much harder to be picking up your phone and typing on your phone while you are shifting gears. Better to just get them to respect the concept of not driving and texting, but I suspect a significant number of parents are horrible role models when it comes to texting/driving.

Have a manual transmission car in seasonal storage, and I do want to keep it long enough to teach my kid the pleasure of driving a stick.

I can remember the days when only "old" people drove automatics . . . .

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:49 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:41 am

Though those are the most common ways to get it wrong with a manual, they are by no means the only, and some are more dangerous. For one example, a "money shift" (accidentally grabbing first instead of 3rd), in addition to destroying the engine, is likely to cause a FWD car to spin out or flip.
I've done the "looking for the upshift, found the downshift" twice while racing. One was on the main straight at Lime Rock in a 2001 Subaru 2.5 RS (AWD). I instantly knew it was the wrong gear (this is quite obvious when it happens) and clutched in. No damage occurred and the car continued the day and as my street car for years afterwards.

The other was in a Factory Five Cobra (302, GT40 heads, E303 cam, T5Z trans) at Epping (dragstrip). The clutch protected the engine and disintegrated into what looked like mouse fur. The car continued for another 10 years before being sold (with a new $31 clutch that I replaced in about 6 casual hours).

Both of these incidents had the mis-shift above redline, before the rev limiter. That ain't going to happen on the street with some teenager.

I can't imagine someone flipping, skidding or otherwise bursting into spontaneous human combustion. I would be far more worried that a teen has 3 teen morons telling the driver to "do something cool" and the driver responding "watch this".
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Matas » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:25 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:49 pm
lazydavid wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:41 am

Though those are the most common ways to get it wrong with a manual, they are by no means the only, and some are more dangerous. For one example, a "money shift" (accidentally grabbing first instead of 3rd), in addition to destroying the engine, is likely to cause a FWD car to spin out or flip.
I've done the "looking for the upshift, found the downshift" twice while racing. One was on the main straight at Lime Rock in a 2001 Subaru 2.5 RS (AWD). I instantly knew it was the wrong gear (this is quite obvious when it happens) and clutched in. No damage occurred and the car continued the day and as my street car for years afterwards.

That ain't going to happen on the street with some teenager.

I can't imagine someone flipping, skidding or otherwise bursting into spontaneous human combustion. I would be far more worried that a teen has 3 teen morons telling the driver to "do something cool" and the driver responding "watch this".
Right. I've come close a couple times on the track - much like your Subie experience at LRP - but "caught" it before fully engaging the clutch. Not gonna happen with a kid learning to shift on the street. Besides - just as many if not more ways to abuse an automatic, like brake-torquing a launch.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by Barefoot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:55 pm

dm200 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:53 am

if your battery was dead, you could push/pull start the car with a manual transmission by having it in gear and it would start. Did that a few times with my '67 VW Beetle.
In a modern car, you need enough battery to run the electronic fuel injection even on a push start.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:48 am


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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:49 am

Barefoot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:55 pm
dm200 wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:53 am
if your battery was dead, you could push/pull start the car with a manual transmission by having it in gear and it would start. Did that a few times with my '67 VW Beetle.
In a modern car, you need enough battery to run the electronic fuel injection even on a push start.
Oh - for the "good old days" ...

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by johngault » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:17 am

I purchased new Hyundai Elantra sedans with manual transmissions for both of my boys after they received their drivers license. Both were active in after-school sports programs and required reliable transportation to and from school after hours. The Hyundais were considerably less expensive than corresponding Honda or Toyota sedans but both exhibited comparable reliability over the 7-10 years that each son drove them.

Both of my sons will tell you that they valued the opportunity to become accomplished drivers of manual transmission vehicles :)

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by 6miths » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:32 am

DS loves driving the stick. We are lucky to have lots of hilly back country roads to practice on. He said that the Licensing Examiner commented that not many kids did their exam in a standard any more and said that DS drove it well in passing. Now my biggest problem is getting it away from him as I enjoy driving it too of course. It's a fun skill to have.
'It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so!' Mark Twain

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sunny_socal
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by sunny_socal » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:01 pm

Bought myself a 15 Honda Accord with a 6-speed just for this reason. By the time my kids are old enough to drive it there will be 150k miles on the clock. Perfect teen car! :beer

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dm200
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:42 pm

Back in the "old days" when cars had the front bench seats, guys driving with their dates sitting close to them would just love a stick shift on the floor - that shift into high gear could have an added "benefit" :)

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by texasdiver » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:26 pm

letsgobobby wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:23 pm
Rupert wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:32 pm
To return to the OP's question, I recommend a 4-cylinder manual Toyota Tacoma. The 4 cylinder, which is not always optimum in a pickup, is perfect for a teenage boy, IMHO.
That's an innovative idea. It would handle all weather, be reliable, and carry anything one needed, especially if it had a camper shell. I'll take a look.
Can't think of a worse car to use in ice and snow than a 2x4 pickup. Plus, if you put a camper shell on it you are almost 100% dependent on using the side mirrors for backing and parking because it is difficult to look back through 3 layers of windows in the cab and front and rear of the camper shell. Pickups serve a purpose but I don't think they are necessarily the best choice as a first car for a new driver.

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dm200
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by dm200 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:40 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:26 pm
letsgobobby wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:23 pm
Rupert wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:32 pm
To return to the OP's question, I recommend a 4-cylinder manual Toyota Tacoma. The 4 cylinder, which is not always optimum in a pickup, is perfect for a teenage boy, IMHO.
That's an innovative idea. It would handle all weather, be reliable, and carry anything one needed, especially if it had a camper shell. I'll take a look.
Can't think of a worse car to use in ice and snow than a 2x4 pickup. Plus, if you put a camper shell on it you are almost 100% dependent on using the side mirrors for backing and parking because it is difficult to look back through 3 layers of windows in the cab and front and rear of the camper shell. Pickups serve a purpose but I don't think they are necessarily the best choice as a first car for a new driver.
Light, rear wheel drive pickup trucks are terrible in snow and ice - UNLESS you have a lot of experience driving. You slip and slide a lot - which can be "exciting" in a way. In High School and when home from college - in the cold and snowy north - I did a lot of driving in my parents' 1953 Ford pickup - three on the column.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by letsgobobby » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:19 pm

Are they any different than any other RWD vehicle? Like the kind we grew up with?

Somehow we all learned to drive with manuals, RWD, in the snow and ice. That said we do want to get a safe vehicle so if RWD is to be avoided, so be it.

Do Tacomas not come in 4x4?

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by tibbitts » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:31 pm

dm200 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:40 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:26 pm
letsgobobby wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:23 pm
Rupert wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:32 pm
To return to the OP's question, I recommend a 4-cylinder manual Toyota Tacoma. The 4 cylinder, which is not always optimum in a pickup, is perfect for a teenage boy, IMHO.
That's an innovative idea. It would handle all weather, be reliable, and carry anything one needed, especially if it had a camper shell. I'll take a look.
Can't think of a worse car to use in ice and snow than a 2x4 pickup. Plus, if you put a camper shell on it you are almost 100% dependent on using the side mirrors for backing and parking because it is difficult to look back through 3 layers of windows in the cab and front and rear of the camper shell. Pickups serve a purpose but I don't think they are necessarily the best choice as a first car for a new driver.
Light, rear wheel drive pickup trucks are terrible in snow and ice - UNLESS you have a lot of experience driving. You slip and slide a lot - which can be "exciting" in a way. In High School and when home from college - in the cold and snowy north - I did a lot of driving in my parents' 1953 Ford pickup - three on the column.
Well, you wouldn't drive without weight in the back in winter, but of course that's a double-edge sword: more traction, worse braking. But you're only making the truck like a passenger car by adding weight so what you end up with isn't really worse than a rwd passenger car. I did find that rwd station wagons were better in snow than sedans - those three-way tailgates and extra metal/glass packed on the pounds where you needed them.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by fsrph » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:46 pm

From about 1984 all of my cars had a manual transmission. For the OP 's needs I'd recommend a Forester from around 2010. Look for one with the Premium package and get a huge sunroof. I own one and it's a great all weather vehicle.

Francis
Last edited by fsrph on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get." | Dale Carnegie

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by texasdiver » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:16 pm

letsgobobby wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:19 pm
Are they any different than any other RWD vehicle? Like the kind we grew up with?

Somehow we all learned to drive with manuals, RWD, in the snow and ice. That said we do want to get a safe vehicle so if RWD is to be avoided, so be it.

Do Tacomas not come in 4x4?
Yes they are worse. Even the 4x4 models. But especially the 4x2 models. The problem with pickup trucks is that they deliberately strip out every bit of weight from the rear in order to add it to the payload. Because a lot of people buy trucks for the payload and towing. So people do all kinds of things to add weight in the back for snow driving. Used to be the common thing to take old truck inner tubes, cut them in half, and fill them with gravel to make wheel weights to hang over the wheel wells. I don't know if people still do that.

I spent 8 years living in Juneau Alaska which is about as bad as it gets in the US for snow and ice driving. Constant freeze and thaw and snow all winter long. Double the precipitation of Vancouver and lower the temperature by 10 degrees and you get the idea.

I started out with a 1990 Toyota 4x4 pickup which was a bad snow car, even with the 4x4. At that point I couldn't afford snow tires, just had the regular mud and snow 4x4 tires. That truck slid all over the place in the snow, whether or not i had the 4x4 engaged.

Swapped it out for a 92 front wheel drive Toyota Camry which I bought four studded snow tires for. It was a FAR FAR superior snow car than than the 4x4 truck. It would drive like it was on rails in the snow.

Finally upgraded to a 95 Nissan Pathfinder 4x4 which was a good snow car at slower speeds but probably didn't drive as well on snow and ice at highway speeds compared to the Camry. I also had 4 studded snow tires on the Pathfinder. The pathfinder was, of course, better in deep snow and off road type conditions and a generally awesome bulletproof rig. I usually had 4 or 5 steel scuba tanks in the back of the Pathfinder and other assorted heavy dive gear, lead weights, and tool boxes, so that gave me a lot of rear end traction.

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tadamsmar
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by tadamsmar » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:43 pm

1990?

The OP is going to get ESC. He will probably get traction control if he got a Tacoma since it's standard since at least 2012. It will handle well in the snow.

Welcome to the future.

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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by munemaker » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:24 pm

6miths wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:32 am
...the Licensing Examiner commented that not many kids did their exam in a standard any more...
Very few cars are sold or even offered with a stick shift any more. Automatics have gotten a lot better and the better ones can now accelerate competitively with manual transmissions. Some high performance cars are now being offered only with automatics.

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6miths
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Re: manual car for new teen driver

Post by 6miths » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:44 am

Canadians tend to drive somewhat smaller more economical cars and most of the cars that beginning drivers own are available as standards in Canada. Hyundai Accent and Elantra, Honda Civic and Fit, Mazda 2 and 3, Ford Focus, etc.

DS could have taken his test in our automatic Hyundai Elantra GT, he just prefers to drive the manual that we have. I think the examiner was commenting more on the fact that given a choice, most kids doing the test pick an automatic over a standard although it is true that there are less manuals being sold. When I bought a Acura TSX back in 2004 both the price and the gas mileage of the auto was the same as the manual (in fact the automatic got slightly better mileage) so I grudgingly bought the automatic knowing that it would likely get passed on to a family member (which it did, my mother currently drives it).
'It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so!' Mark Twain

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