Safes
Safes
I'm considering the acquisition of a fire/burglary safe, specifically a Liberty Lincoln 35, and wonder if anyone in this community has experience with that brand and, ideally, that model, and could comment about their experience with it? I know that like most safes intended for the residential rather than commercial markets it is UL-rated only as a Residential Security Container, and that it carries no UL fire rating. My goal is to delay rather than necessarily defeat any burglary attempts (I have a monitored fire and intrusion detection system), and to acquire a reasonable amount of fire protection for documents and possibly some electronic media.
My interest in this brand is driven primarily by the availability of a local dealer for delivery and support, coupled with what seems to be a decent value proposition given the cost and features offered.
My interest in this brand is driven primarily by the availability of a local dealer for delivery and support, coupled with what seems to be a decent value proposition given the cost and features offered.
Re: Safes
DW and I just bought a Liberty Franklin 25 and we love it. We just took delivery at the beginning of November, so our time is limited. But, it is a rock solid safe for sure! The service and support has been wonderful, and we also had a local company that deals and delivers Liberty safes. That all played into our decision and we are happy with our choice.
I say, go for it.
I say, go for it.
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Re: Safes
Unless it has a UL time rating I don't think the "UL residential security container" rating means that much.
A good hiding spot will be much more effective for buglary than just about any safe you can buy and having one can make you a target. You'd need to make sure anyone who works on your home doesn't know about it and tell nobody about it. It can be quite difficult to find a hiding spot for something big enough that has a good fire rating though.Burglary Classification Residential Security Container (RSC) signifies a combination or keylocked unit designed to offer protection against entry by common mechanical tools. Performance tests are conducted against the entire unit. The basic standard used to investigate in this category is UL 1037, "Antitheft Alarms and Devices.
An Anti-theft device, as defined by Paragraph 1.3, shall resist at least 5 minutes of attack that would defeat its purpose.
Any disassembly of the protected property required to make it removable, is to be included in the 5 minutes of attack test.
The tools used in the test are to include hammers, chisels, adjustable wrenches, pry bars, punches and screwdrivers. The hammers are not to exceed 3 pounds in head weight, and no tool is to exceed 18 inches in length.
The product under test is to be mounted securely in its intended position, and the attack is to be carried out by one operator.
Last edited by barnaclebob on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Safes
How does a safe delay them? They don't need to unlock it while on the premises. They can take it with them.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Re: Safes
You bolt them down from inside. Still not a huge delay.
Re: Safes
That's correct. You can bolt them to the foundation. That may be more important than the type of safe. Better yet, is to conceal. To defeat burglers, you have to think like burglars. OP's safe is a 6 feet behemoth. Not easy to hide that and when they see that, that's an obvious com rob me sign, that the good stuff is all there.
Last edited by denovo on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Safes
I would think that this would be bolted into concrete at least at the floor and rear wall. I have a much flimsier one used mainly to store medications that I only need to keep kids out of and it's bolted into the floor and a basement wall with several bolts.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Re: Safes
Just FYI, one of the ways that they make safes resistant to fire is that thick material in the sides of the safe let out a large amount of water when heated so the contents of the safe are drenched and slower to burn. Electronics would obviously have a problem with that but a lot of ink that is used in inkjet printers is water soluble and could also be ruined.
Re: Safes
+1 Most criminals know the secret combination to easily open any safe: point a gun at family members and threaten severe violence until you open the safe for them. For fire protection of documents, scan them first and then store them in a bank safe deposit box. For items with intrinsic value (jewelry, coins, etc.), a good hiding place that you can get to if you need to will offer better security - provided that no one talks to anyone about what you have or where you have it.barnaclebob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:22 pmA good hiding spot will be much more effective for buglary than just about any safe you can buy and having one can make you a target.
My preference is a decoy safe that is cheap and light weight so it will be easy for a criminal to carry it away. Keep a few items that look good (costume jewelry, cheap coins, etc.) in the decoy safe so the criminals will think they found your "stash", and hopefully they will leave you alone.
I'm not as concerned about the return on my money as I am the return of my money. (Often attributed to Will Rogers)
- DanMahowny
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Re: Safes
I have a safe in my home. It's 100% decoy. Contents include a deck of cards, a few empty deodorant cans, old remote control, and a few matchbox cars.
The valuables are hidden elsewhere.
The valuables are hidden elsewhere.
Funding secured
Re: Safes
Where in the world did you get this info from??Watty wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:51 pmJust FYI, one of the ways that they make safes resistant to fire is that thick material in the sides of the safe let out a large amount of water when heated so the contents of the safe are drenched and slower to burn. Electronics would obviously have a problem with that but a lot of ink that is used in inkjet printers is water soluble and could also be ruined.
So, you think the safes are designed to let in a ton of water from a sprinkler system and then release the water to resist the fire?
Re: Safes
1)I think those are solid examples of the RSC genre. Liberty has a good reputation.
2)I concur with the idea of keeping it out of casual view; that plumber's assistant might have learned his trade at the prison trade school.
3)On the 'how secure are these': if a safecracker shows up with the right tools, not very. But very few casual burglars carry safe cracking tools. My view is that we have a monitored alarm. A brave burglar might decide to gamble on a slow police response and spend 5 or 10 min ransacking the house, but very few burglars have the skills or bring the tools to get into an RSC in 10 minutes. If you are a metalworking hobbiest with big angle grinders etc, you might want to keep those in a locked cabinet.
4)All bets are off if they leave with the safe. It needs to be bolted down. Also, many of the quicky attacks involve tipping the safe over. If at all possible, bolt it to a slab and the wall - in a corner or closet is even better. Long prybars don't work in tight areas. Sure, they can demolish the wall, but the clock is ticking. Garages are the worst place, because a chain and pickup can probably pop the floor bolts, and then they toss it into the truck and leave. I recall one article where the safe was installed next to an exterior 2x4 wall, facing the street. The thieves backed a truck into the yard, punched a hole through the wall on either side of the safe and wrapped a chain, then just yanked it through the front wall. So think like a thief when you select a location.
5)We've had an electronic lock one for years - and an S&G electronic lock at that. It has gotten a little finicky with age. If I had it to do over I think I'd lean to a mechanical lock instead. I don't think I have ever heard of an S&G mechanical lock failing. FWIW, because of where we located our safe, we don't use it for any purpose where getting into it in a hurry might matter.
"So, you think the safes are designed to let in a ton of water from a sprinkler system"
No, but the gypsum board that is frequently used liberates water vapor when heated, and that water vapor can cause rust problems etc, or damage media, etc. If you're depending on the fire protection, you want to carefully research what the conditions inside the safe might be, and what effect those conditions might have on whatever you put in the safe. I haven't researched most of that, because I'm only interested in the burglary aspects.
"Secured or not, it's going to take quite a crew to get that job done."
In the right location - like a garage - a couple of strong guys and the right dolly and you could have a thousand pound safe in a pickup in a few minutes.
2)I concur with the idea of keeping it out of casual view; that plumber's assistant might have learned his trade at the prison trade school.
3)On the 'how secure are these': if a safecracker shows up with the right tools, not very. But very few casual burglars carry safe cracking tools. My view is that we have a monitored alarm. A brave burglar might decide to gamble on a slow police response and spend 5 or 10 min ransacking the house, but very few burglars have the skills or bring the tools to get into an RSC in 10 minutes. If you are a metalworking hobbiest with big angle grinders etc, you might want to keep those in a locked cabinet.
4)All bets are off if they leave with the safe. It needs to be bolted down. Also, many of the quicky attacks involve tipping the safe over. If at all possible, bolt it to a slab and the wall - in a corner or closet is even better. Long prybars don't work in tight areas. Sure, they can demolish the wall, but the clock is ticking. Garages are the worst place, because a chain and pickup can probably pop the floor bolts, and then they toss it into the truck and leave. I recall one article where the safe was installed next to an exterior 2x4 wall, facing the street. The thieves backed a truck into the yard, punched a hole through the wall on either side of the safe and wrapped a chain, then just yanked it through the front wall. So think like a thief when you select a location.
5)We've had an electronic lock one for years - and an S&G electronic lock at that. It has gotten a little finicky with age. If I had it to do over I think I'd lean to a mechanical lock instead. I don't think I have ever heard of an S&G mechanical lock failing. FWIW, because of where we located our safe, we don't use it for any purpose where getting into it in a hurry might matter.
"So, you think the safes are designed to let in a ton of water from a sprinkler system"
No, but the gypsum board that is frequently used liberates water vapor when heated, and that water vapor can cause rust problems etc, or damage media, etc. If you're depending on the fire protection, you want to carefully research what the conditions inside the safe might be, and what effect those conditions might have on whatever you put in the safe. I haven't researched most of that, because I'm only interested in the burglary aspects.
"Secured or not, it's going to take quite a crew to get that job done."
In the right location - like a garage - a couple of strong guys and the right dolly and you could have a thousand pound safe in a pickup in a few minutes.
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Re: Safes
Can't go wrong with Liberty! I was in the same boat months ago and while I liked the Liberty, I fell in love with Browning safes because of their on door storage. Check them out - anyone who has stored long guns knows the struggle and this enables you to put the frequent guns in the door, and the every now and then guns piled in the safe.
I went with the Hells Canyon. Way more than I need, but I'll grow into it. Buy once, cry once!
Re: Safes
"Liberty safes come with a dehumidifier. It's electric and keeps everything warm and dry in there. Not sure what some of y'all are talking about."
Gun safe 'dehumidifiers' are just low wattage heaters. By raising the temp a little, they lower the relative humidity. They don't remove water like a normal room dehumidifier (if they did, after all, they would need somewhere to drain the water).
But that is all about keeping guns from rusting during normal weather in humid climates. During a fire, the safe's liner releases water vapor:
"Gun safes are made with a material called gypsum. When gypsum is heated to 262°F, it releases water vapor that keeps the interior of the safe cool."
Source: https://championsafe.com/wp-content/upl ... atings.pdf
The built in 'dehumidifier' won't affect that, because it's not really a dehumidifier, and because the power is rather likely to go out during a major house fire. The inside of the safe will be a few hundred degrees and very steamy. In general, that's OK for guns (which are the most common use for this kind of safe) as long as you dry and oil them promptly afterwards. If you don't get home for a week, all that steam can do bad things to your guns in the interim. And non gun things may be damaged if they aren't happy in a few hundred degree steamy environment. Jewelry or gold coins probably won't care; your photographs or electronics might.
Gun safe 'dehumidifiers' are just low wattage heaters. By raising the temp a little, they lower the relative humidity. They don't remove water like a normal room dehumidifier (if they did, after all, they would need somewhere to drain the water).
But that is all about keeping guns from rusting during normal weather in humid climates. During a fire, the safe's liner releases water vapor:
"Gun safes are made with a material called gypsum. When gypsum is heated to 262°F, it releases water vapor that keeps the interior of the safe cool."
Source: https://championsafe.com/wp-content/upl ... atings.pdf
The built in 'dehumidifier' won't affect that, because it's not really a dehumidifier, and because the power is rather likely to go out during a major house fire. The inside of the safe will be a few hundred degrees and very steamy. In general, that's OK for guns (which are the most common use for this kind of safe) as long as you dry and oil them promptly afterwards. If you don't get home for a week, all that steam can do bad things to your guns in the interim. And non gun things may be damaged if they aren't happy in a few hundred degree steamy environment. Jewelry or gold coins probably won't care; your photographs or electronics might.
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Re: Safes
I've sold Liberty safes for nearly 20 years. They make very good safes.
Just know that over the long haul the dial locks are more reliable than the electronic locks.
Though I do have a nice 1,000# 50CF safe from Liberty for just $1599.99
Just know that over the long haul the dial locks are more reliable than the electronic locks.
Though I do have a nice 1,000# 50CF safe from Liberty for just $1599.99
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Re: Safes
Besides a "safe", isn't it more about layers of security?
IE: Nosy armed neighbors, 1000 volt security fence with electronic gate, dogs, security cameras obvious and not, motion lights, multiple secure areas so no single point of failure SPOF, . . . . then the safe. . . . and maybe a bit of Glockamola on the side? I met a neighbor like this, several, very interesting. If I were a thief, I probably would look for easier targets, certainly less lethal ones.
IE: Nosy armed neighbors, 1000 volt security fence with electronic gate, dogs, security cameras obvious and not, motion lights, multiple secure areas so no single point of failure SPOF, . . . . then the safe. . . . and maybe a bit of Glockamola on the side? I met a neighbor like this, several, very interesting. If I were a thief, I probably would look for easier targets, certainly less lethal ones.
Re: Safes
Thanks to all who have responded so far, especially those with experience with Liberty. I am aware that gypsum gives off water vapor when sufficiently heated - there aren't many alternatives to that approach with residential safes which also provide any level of theft resistance, unfortunately.
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Re: Safes
I live in Santa Rosa CA. You might have heard about the fires. This video was made by a friend of a friend. I am in no way endorsing the product. 100% neutral. But, pertinent to the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMbt7gr8rA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djMbt7gr8rA
Last edited by muddlehead on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Safes
My two-part home security system is a briefcase-sized, medium-rated (by how many hours it can sustain how many degrees) key-locked fire safe for our important papers (real estate abstracts, passports, copy of wills, memory card with a video of personal property in all our rooms) that I shove under a bed in the guest room and a couple of good hiding places for jewelry (inside a dummy can of beans in the pantry, inside a hollowed-out book on our shelf, under a joist in the attic, covered with insulation). This reminds me to check to see if our safe is rated high enough. Maybe I need to upgrade.
My wife and I play a game sometimes where we ask each other what we would save from a fire or a robbery. We can't come up with many material things. The documents can be duplicated mostly, and the best family photos are in the cloud. Original artwork on our walls would be missed but I wouldn't bother taking it if we had five minutes to grab anything and flee. I'd miss my guitar, but I can buy another one. It's a terrific exercise for me to realize what is important in my life. We have a LOT of stuff, so why do we keep it if we don't treasure it? Because we can, I guess.
I traveled internationally for 30 years and always found myself leaving a hotel room for some time and deciding where to hide valuables that I didn't want to carry on the street or hand over to the desk clerk. Lots of hotels have room safes. Lots don't, and I traveled mostly to Third World countries. Nothing I hid was crazy-valuable, but the best I could think of was inside the sleeve of a shirt in the closet or in the toe of a shoe or inside some used underwear on the floor of the closet. I've never had anything stolen. I believe most room service people are honest. Anyone intent on stealing could have found my secret stash.
My wife and I play a game sometimes where we ask each other what we would save from a fire or a robbery. We can't come up with many material things. The documents can be duplicated mostly, and the best family photos are in the cloud. Original artwork on our walls would be missed but I wouldn't bother taking it if we had five minutes to grab anything and flee. I'd miss my guitar, but I can buy another one. It's a terrific exercise for me to realize what is important in my life. We have a LOT of stuff, so why do we keep it if we don't treasure it? Because we can, I guess.
I traveled internationally for 30 years and always found myself leaving a hotel room for some time and deciding where to hide valuables that I didn't want to carry on the street or hand over to the desk clerk. Lots of hotels have room safes. Lots don't, and I traveled mostly to Third World countries. Nothing I hid was crazy-valuable, but the best I could think of was inside the sleeve of a shirt in the closet or in the toe of a shoe or inside some used underwear on the floor of the closet. I've never had anything stolen. I believe most room service people are honest. Anyone intent on stealing could have found my secret stash.
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Re: Safes
... or a MetaBeretta?Sandtrap wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:46 pm Besides a "safe", isn't it more about layers of security?
IE: Nosy armed neighbors, 1000 volt security fence with electronic gate, dogs, security cameras obvious and not, motion lights, multiple secure areas so no single point of failure SPOF, . . . . then the safe. . . . and maybe a bit of Glockamola on the side? I met a neighbor like this, several, very interesting. If I were a thief, I probably would look for easier targets, certainly less lethal ones.
Re: Safes
The OP seems to have realistic expectations and most of the relevant concerns have been addressed. Plus there are many videos on Youtube addressing security concerns with these types of safes. I'll add, that in my home, I have two safes (residential security containers), both bolted into closets where the door of the safe and closet door had to be removed to fit through the opening. One has an additional Sentry file safe inside to protect valuable paper items.