The Wolf of Wall Street

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abuss368
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The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by abuss368 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:46 am

Bogleheads -

There are two books available:

1) The Wolf of Wall Street

2) Catching the Wolf of Wall Street

Has anyone read these books? Were they entertaining and what would be your overall feedback?
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by investing1012 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:29 am

The movie was fun to watch.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

The google gives this description of the story:
In 1987, Jordan Belfort (Leonardo DiCaprio) takes an entry-level job at a Wall Street brokerage firm. By the early 1990s, while still in his 20s, Belfort founds his own firm, Stratton Oakmont. Together with his trusted lieutenant (Jonah Hill) and a merry band of brokers, Belfort makes a huge fortune by defrauding wealthy investors out of millions. However, while Belfort and his cronies partake in a hedonistic brew of sex, drugs and thrills, the SEC and the FBI close in on his empire of excess.
source: https://www.google.com/search?q=what%27 ... fox-b-1-ab
I'm not sure why we keep glorifying people (by making movies, books, etc.) who get wealthy defrauding investors until they get caught by the SEC. Wouldn't it be nice if there were more movies about people who acually help people (like Jack Bogle)?

Instead we have "the wolf of wall street":
'Wolf of Wall Street' Jordan Belfort still living life of luxury while owing his victims millions.

"I'm actually doing a U.S. tour that I announced and I'm giving 100 percent of the profits to pay back the victims," he told Inside Edition's Chief Investigative Correspondent Lisa Guerrero at the time.

But, in a new investigation airing Wednesday, Inside Edition found that he still owes around $100 million and no movie residual money was ever handed over to the victims, according to the court.

Also, despite his debt to his victims, he's also apparently still living a life of luxury.

Guerrero wanted to know how that was possible, but when she tried to get answers from the U.S. Attorney's Office, they said: "No comment."

source: https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/0 ... /22096055/
I choose not to spend my time or energy reading about or watching movies glorifying people like this, but to each his/her own.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by nisiprius » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:05 pm

I thought the movie was funny.

My wife was seriously annoyed that I thought the movie was funny.

I skimmed the book to find out which things were actually described by Belfort as having really happened. I phrase it that way because I see no particular reason to believe anything he says.

One of the hate-myself-for-thinking-it-is-funny scenes in the movie, and I think it will give you a good idea what the movie is like, is the scene where Belfort drives his expensive sports car home while being nearly comatose on Quaaludes. At the time when it occurred, the manufacture of Quaaludes had been discontinued in the United States, but aficionados tried to get their hands on old, long-expired bottles of it. Belfort had done so. Being outdated, their action was unpredictable and he and his friend kept taking them and waiting for the effect to set in. When it did, he had overdosed. Then his cell phone rang and for some urgent reason which I forget, it was absolutely essential for him to get home. Literally unable to walk, he rolled down the steps of where he was, crawled into his car, and drove home. The movie first shows us what we later realize is his drug-addled point of view: he just barely gets home OK without actually hitting anything. Then the scene shifts and it is the next day, and there are policemen at his door. He looks at his car which has been bashed into an unrecognizable lump. The cops inform him that he actually has had seven separate collisions, one of which broke somebody's arm, all of which he had been unaware of or didn't remember.

Because the narrative presence of Belfort is of a raconteur telling a story he thinks is funny, I went along with it and it seemed funny. To enjoy it requires a certain adolescent attitude, and it helps if you have a streak of male chauvinist pig.

Scariest thing is the way he hooked his clients. His people always began by putting them into nice, ordinary, well-known stocks like GE, and kept doing it for long enough to build trust, before telling them about something really special they wanted to recommend.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by cinghiale » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:02 pm

nisiprius stated, concerning the film The Wolf of Wall Street,
To enjoy it requires a certain adolescent attitude,
It also requires a stomach for a certain word referring to carnal knowledge. Someone from Variety Magazine went ahead, saved us all the trouble of doing so, and counted the F-bombs in the film. Their tally was 506 of them in a 180 minute film.

I did see the film. It was one of those “I wish I had those last 3 hours back” experiences.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by abuss368 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:51 pm

cinghiale wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:02 pm
nisiprius stated, concerning the film The Wolf of Wall Street,
To enjoy it requires a certain adolescent attitude,
It also requires a stomach for a certain word referring to carnal knowledge. Someone from Variety Magazine went ahead, saved us all the trouble of doing so, and counted the F-bombs in the film. Their tally was 506 of them in a 180 minute film.

I did see the film. It was one of those “I wish I had those last 3 hours back” experiences.
506 F bombs in 3 hours? I knew it was a lot but I would have never guessed it was that much. I laughed pretty good for three hours. I would like to see a second film.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:58 pm

I told DW that this movie shows us the 1 in a million that got found out, and the other 999,000 we'll never know about that are working as we speak.
:D

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& Catch Me If You Can - Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by ResearchMed » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:08 pm

Another "fraud" movie, Catch Me If You Can, has DiCaprio playing Frank Abagnale:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale

This all ends differently... Abagnale was amazingly young for what he did, and he apparently eventually suffers considerably while being pursued, and...

SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE FILM/READ THE BOOK - please STOP here...

he also turns things around, and ends up consulting/etc., for the rest of his "working career" advising on check fraud, including checking paper security, and other fraud prevention techniques.
He continued to work with the FBI and other agencies.

Per Wikipedia, he admitted that the author of the book (and thus, the movie) embellished some of his activities.

I'd like to know which details are, in fact, true.

RM
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Re: Catch me If You Can: Fraud Movies

Post by Sandtrap » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:14 pm

"Catch Me IF You Can", One of DW's favorite movies. Likes DeCaprio.. . also Keanu Reeves. . . Mark Walberg. . .
The older fraud movie was "Matchstick Men" with Nicolas Cage
"Enron: The Smartest Guys In The Room".. . . . ouch.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by Nate79 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:49 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am
The google gives this description of the story:
In 1987, Jordan Belfort (Leonardo DiCaprio) takes an entry-level job at a Wall Street brokerage firm. By the early 1990s, while still in his 20s, Belfort founds his own firm, Stratton Oakmont. Together with his trusted lieutenant (Jonah Hill) and a merry band of brokers, Belfort makes a huge fortune by defrauding wealthy investors out of millions. However, while Belfort and his cronies partake in a hedonistic brew of sex, drugs and thrills, the SEC and the FBI close in on his empire of excess.
source: https://www.google.com/search?q=what%27 ... fox-b-1-ab
I'm not sure why we keep glorifying people (by making movies, books, etc.) who get wealthy defrauding investors until they get caught by the SEC. Wouldn't it be nice if there were more movies about people who acually help people (like Jack Bogle)?

Instead we have "the wolf of wall street":
'Wolf of Wall Street' Jordan Belfort still living life of luxury while owing his victims millions.

"I'm actually doing a U.S. tour that I announced and I'm giving 100 percent of the profits to pay back the victims," he told Inside Edition's Chief Investigative Correspondent Lisa Guerrero at the time.

But, in a new investigation airing Wednesday, Inside Edition found that he still owes around $100 million and no movie residual money was ever handed over to the victims, according to the court.

Also, despite his debt to his victims, he's also apparently still living a life of luxury.

Guerrero wanted to know how that was possible, but when she tried to get answers from the U.S. Attorney's Office, they said: "No comment."

source: https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/0 ... /22096055/
I choose not to spend my time or energy reading about or watching movies glorifying people like this, but to each his/her own.
Movies are for entertainment. Do you seriously think a movie about Bogle would pack the theaters? Index funds are boring.....

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by Stormbringer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:52 pm

I related to the movie because I used to work for a software company that was just like that. Lots of young guys with obscene amounts of money. Yachts, strippers, jets, wild parties. It was really, really crazy.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:00 pm

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (book).
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Re: & Catch Me If You Can - Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by BW1985 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:17 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:08 pm
Another "fraud" movie, Catch Me If You Can, has DiCaprio playing Frank Abagnale:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale

This all ends differently... Abagnale was amazingly young for what he did, and he apparently eventually suffers considerably while being pursued, and...

SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE FILM/READ THE BOOK - please STOP here...

he also turns things around, and ends up consulting/etc., for the rest of his "working career" advising on check fraud, including checking paper security, and other fraud prevention techniques.
He continued to work with the FBI and other agencies.

Per Wikipedia, he admitted that the author of the book (and thus, the movie) embellished some of his activities.

I'd like to know which details are, in fact, true.

RM
One of my favorite movies!

Wolf of walstreet was also really good. I enjoyed it.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:14 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:49 pm
Movies are for entertainment. Do you seriously think a movie about Bogle would pack the theaters? Index funds are boring.....
Ask his victims if they feel entertained by him and his actions. And no, I don't think Bogle would sell out theaters unforunately. But if there's something I've learned from Bogle it's "people vote with their feet". I choose not to give criminals my money therefore I would never watch a movie that glorifies a villain (and we can assume this villain is getting royalties from everyone who ponies up to see this movie or read the book). You are free to financially contribute to this villain making money off you. But he's making no money off me. That's for sure.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by JBTX » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:48 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:05 pm
I thought the movie was funny.

My wife was seriously annoyed that I thought the movie was funny.

I skimmed the book to find out which things were actually described by Belfort as having really happened. I phrase it that way because I see no particular reason to believe anything he says.

One of the hate-myself-for-thinking-it-is-funny scenes in the movie, and I think it will give you a good idea what the movie is like, is the scene where Belfort drives his expensive sports car home while being nearly comatose on Quaaludes. At the time when it occurred, the manufacture of Quaaludes had been discontinued in the United States, but aficionados tried to get their hands on old, long-expired bottles of it. Belfort had done so. Being outdated, their action was unpredictable and he and his friend kept taking them and waiting for the effect to set in. When it did, he had overdosed. Then his cell phone rang and for some urgent reason which I forget, it was absolutely essential for him to get home. Literally unable to walk, he rolled down the steps of where he was, crawled into his car, and drove home. The movie first shows us what we later realize is his drug-addled point of view: he just barely gets home OK without actually hitting anything. Then the scene shifts and it is the next day, and there are policemen at his door. He looks at his car which has been bashed into an unrecognizable lump. The cops inform him that he actually has had seven separate collisions, one of which broke somebody's arm, all of which he had been unaware of or didn't remember.

Because the narrative presence of Belfort is of a raconteur telling a story he thinks is funny, I went along with it and it seemed funny. To enjoy it requires a certain adolescent attitude, and it helps if you have a streak of male chauvinist pig.

Scariest thing is the way he hooked his clients. His people always began by putting them into nice, ordinary, well-known stocks like GE, and kept doing it for long enough to build trust, before telling them about something really special they wanted to recommend.
There’s been some great Scorcese movies (good fellas and casino) but I didn’t find wows nearly as good. I can’t really tell you why. These movies have a pulp ficion esqe humor and typically colorful but believable characters. For some reason I didn’t find them believable and certain scenes just drug on god awfully long, such as his intoxicated driving scene. I think I actually fell asleep while watching it at home.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:17 pm

In some respects we are focusing on the movie and story. I am curious if however anyone has read the books?
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:18 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am
'Wolf of Wall Street' Jordan Belfort still living life of luxury while owing his victims millions.

"I'm actually doing a U.S. tour that I announced and I'm giving 100 percent of the profits to pay back the victims," he told Inside Edition's Chief Investigative Correspondent Lisa Guerrero at the time.

But, in a new investigation airing Wednesday, Inside Edition found that he still owes around $100 million and no movie residual money was ever handed over to the victims, according to the court.

Also, despite his debt to his victims, he's also apparently still living a life of luxury.

Guerrero wanted to know how that was possible, but when she tried to get answers from the U.S. Attorney's Office, they said: "No comment."

source: https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/0 ... /22096055/
I just watched that clip and it is insane. Wow!
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by nedsaid » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:09 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:49 pm

Movies are for entertainment. Do you seriously think a movie about Bogle would pack the theaters? Index funds are boring.....
There are aspects of Bogle's life that would be interesting. His lifelong battle with heart disease and having to carry a defibrillator with him. Being shocked back to life 2-3 times. His heart transplant and the new lease on life it gave him.

A scene with someone applying the life saving defibrillator would probably bring some tears. Chicks would go for that. If the story of Bogle's heart donor was known, that would be interesting.

Bogle getting fired at Wellington Management and turning lemons into lemonade by founding Vanguard. Criticism he faced starting "Bogle's Folly" or the S&P 500 Index fund.

His outspoken opinions about Wall Street.

Of course, Bogle got the girl early in life and raised a family. As far as I know, there was no chase scene where Bogle escaped with his life after being chased by Wall Street villains. No bad guys shooting at him. I suppose certain aspects of his life would have to be embellished for a movie.

There would have to be at least one scene where Jack kisses his wife Eve. Make it a love story somehow. Got to have a reason for the chicks to buy tickets.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by mxs » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:10 pm

I thought Wolf of Wall Street was okay, but I thought Wall Street and Boiler Room were better. The Big Short was pretty good and a more recent event.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by metrunt » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:12 pm

The second time I watched Wolf of Wall Street, I realized it was actually a comedy, and really funny.

The qualude scene (no, the other one) was hilariously funny.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by RobertonMIA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:04 pm

I didn't care for the cartoonish movie at all, but the books are surprisingly well-written and enjoyable in a literary way. For example, his portraits of his business partners, father, first wife and second wife, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and others -- including himself -- are vivid, convincing, and often very funny. His accounts of drug-crazed excess are reminiscent of Hunter Thompson.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by ccieemeritus » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:45 pm

Ironically, the movie Wolf Of Wall Street was partially funded with money embezzled from Malaysia via their 1MDB investment fund.

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reute ... SKCN1BT17I

My wife and I saw the movie. Too much swearing.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by steve roy » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:21 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:51 pm
cinghiale wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:02 pm
nisiprius stated, concerning the film The Wolf of Wall Street,
To enjoy it requires a certain adolescent attitude,
It also requires a stomach for a certain word referring to carnal knowledge. Someone from Variety Magazine went ahead, saved us all the trouble of doing so, and counted the F-bombs in the film. Their tally was 506 of them in a 180 minute film.

I did see the film. It was one of those “I wish I had those last 3 hours back” experiences.
506 F bombs in 3 hours? I knew it was a lot but I would have never guessed it was that much. I laughed pretty good for three hours. I would like to see a second film.
On a related note: forty-five years ago I was in the U.S Navy, on a Navy base watching "The Last Detail", a movie about sailors. (It stars Jack Nicolson in the early part of his career.).

"TLD" contains abundant swearing. Copious swearing, a lot of which is the F-word rhyming with "luck". This was in the early days of modern screen swearing, and critics noted the profanity in their reviews. I had read many of the reviews, and went into the theater geared up for the dirty language.

But I hardly noticed it. My only reaction was, "Yup, that's the way sailors talk."

Turns out, when your submerged in salty language 24/7, bad words don't register as unseemly. Or even a "thing".

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by stemikger » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 pm

I thought the movie was funny and over-the-top raunchy. Having said that, after the movie I saw some interviews with him and he is trying so hard to act like a changed man, but you can clearly see he is still a slime ball.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by abuss368 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:10 pm

stemikger wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 pm
I thought the movie was funny and over-the-top raunchy. Having said that, after the movie I saw some interviews with him and he is trying so hard to act like a changed man, but you can clearly see he is still a slime ball.
Yeah, the link above was an eye opener. He has not paid anything to the victims and has paid millions again.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by sjb19 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:33 pm

I read both and liked the second book better because it had more financial details, so I might be weird. Neither of them made a lasting impression though.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by Case59 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:46 pm

The movie is deeply cynical, and that I enjoyed it thoroughly is one of those little character tests I periodically fail.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by abuss368 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:06 pm

stemikger wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 pm
I thought the movie was funny and over-the-top raunchy. Having said that, after the movie I saw some interviews with him and he is trying so hard to act like a changed man, but you can clearly see he is still a slime ball.
I just finished the movie today. One can not take it seriously. I laughed the entire time.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by cashmoney » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:30 pm

abuss368 wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:10 pm
stemikger wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 pm
I thought the movie was funny and over-the-top raunchy. Having said that, after the movie I saw some interviews with him and he is trying so hard to act like a changed man, but you can clearly see he is still a slime ball.
Yeah, the link above was an eye opener. He has not paid anything to the victims and has paid millions again.


He is/was running a scam in Australia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-TytYQJiw

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by F150HD » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:37 am

abuss368 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:46 am
Bogleheads -

There are two books available:

1) The Wolf of Wall Street

2) Catching the Wolf of Wall Street

Has anyone read these books? Were they entertaining and what would be your overall feedback?
Watch the movie.

+1 on it being funny and entertaining....and a bit ridiculous, but entertaining.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by stemikger » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:34 am

cashmoney wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:30 pm
abuss368 wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:10 pm
stemikger wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 pm
I thought the movie was funny and over-the-top raunchy. Having said that, after the movie I saw some interviews with him and he is trying so hard to act like a changed man, but you can clearly see he is still a slime ball.
Yeah, the link above was an eye opener. He has not paid anything to the victims and has paid millions again.


He is/was running a scam in Australia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je-TytYQJiw
No surprise there!! You can tell, the guy is still a low life.
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by montanagirl » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:18 am

abuss368 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:51 pm


On a related note: forty-five years ago I was in the U.S Navy, on a Navy base watching "The Last Detail", a movie about sailors. (It stars Jack Nicolson in the early part of his career.).

"TLD" contains abundant swearing. Copious swearing, a lot of which is the F-word rhyming with "luck". This was in the early days of modern screen swearing, and critics noted the profanity in their reviews. I had read many of the reviews, and went into the theater geared up for the dirty language.

But I hardly noticed it. My only reaction was, "Yup, that's the way sailors talk."

Turns out, when your submerged in salty language 24/7, bad words don't register as unseemly. Or even a "thing".
But did you ever notice that level of swearing in any other environment? It always struck me as a cheap dramatic shtick to make things seem Really Real, and especially out of place in westerns like the Unforgiven.

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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by in_reality » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:37 am

Nate79 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:49 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

I'm not sure why we keep glorifying people (by making movies, books, etc.) who get wealthy defrauding investors until they get caught by the SEC. Wouldn't it be nice if there were more movies about people who acually help people (like Jack Bogle)?
Movies are for entertainment. Do you seriously think a movie about Bogle would pack the theaters? Index funds are boring.....
Bogle's work is actually pretty inspirational, it's just a matter of connecting the dots.

How about this:

Bogle dies and goes to heaven, but someone deletes the data on his life so he has to tell the story starting off with getting laughed out of the boardroom for Bogle's folly (index funds).

Then you could have madcap mishmashs of testimonials about dramatic parts of their life and how having some money, a little extra than otherwise, made some kind of difference in their life (complete with flashbacks to various beautiful, touching, funny, over-the-top etc. scenes). (and people arguing about how things really went down, but agreeing on Jack's advice).

When one person finishes their story, another in heaven could jump in because they or someone they know was related by coincidence and it will launch another.

Bogle needs to be played by a comedian who just good naturally plays it down and kinda brings up Bogley things which sparks a memory ... about a decision.

The point is that there is high paced adventure story full of humor and insight just waiting to be written. The only thing it really needs is a plausible excuse to introduce new characters who can chain their stories to the last one. This is a bad example but in the series Revenge, you know they are always going off to get someone else a drink which sets it up for different people to have a chance to talk privately. Maybe something like an angel needing to verify stories and perhaps going to earth or hell to get some testimony along the way.

And a serious talent could perhaps make a superhero out of him in campy charming joking sort of way.

And maybe the stories could lead to something happening today, or an injustice that needs to be rectified and how some clues in the stories makes Jack curious to dig for some details and he figures out how to make the world a better place somehow (that is not related to his index funds work) and people can be trying to interrupt him to tell their testimonials but unconcerned about himself he tries to get the info he needs to enable to angle to do some good.

A great movie is doable here.

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mickeyd
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Re: The Wolf of Wall Street

Post by mickeyd » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:06 pm

Read the book and saw the movie. Somehow I preferred the movie because the book did not have the nude pictures that the movie had.

Jordan Belfort is not the kind of investment advisor that Bogleheads usually do business with.
Part-Owner of Texas | | “The CMH-the Cost Matters Hypothesis -is all that is needed to explain why indexing must and will work… Yes, it is that simple.” John C. Bogle

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