Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

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I_Am_Not_A_Doctor
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Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

Bogleheads are knowledgeable, and so here goes...

I just had an electrician install a whole-house surge protector today, along with the upgrade of our breaker panel. We got a Eaton CHSPT2SURGE. (I paid way more than I probably should have for the part and labor but it was definitely not a DIY for my level of skill.) Anyway, I thought I knew how it would work... it would take electrical hits over time until it failed, rather than letting surges (except for something really powerful like a lightning strike) through to the house's electronics.

The electrician installed it in such a way that I'd have to remove the outer part of the panel to see if the 2 lights are on to show it is operating. So I asked him, with the lights not in view, how will I know the unit is dead and in need of replacement? Like, would the house's power be out but toggling the breakers wouldn't help?

To my surprise, if I heard the electrician correctly, he said electricity would still be running to the house if the protector failed.

Huh? :?:

He then proceeded to turn the breakers to which the protector is connected to the off position... and all the lights stayed on.

Double huh? :?: :?:

Does this thing sound like it is installed correctly? I checked the company's credentials ahead of time, and they seemed licensed with my city.

Thoughts?
scifilover
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by scifilover »

Surge protector is a sacrificial device.
See: From Wikipedia...."A surge protector (or surge suppressor or surge diverter) is an appliance or device designed to protect electrical devices from voltage spikes. A surge protector attempts to limit the voltage supplied to an electric device by either blocking or shorting to ground any unwanted voltages above a safe threshold."

So voltages less than threshold pass through and higher go to ground. If surge big enough, device burns out but current stays on.
ralph124cf
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by ralph124cf »

The way I read your post, it sounds like the surge protector was wired in such a way that it bypasses the circuit breakers to continue delivering current to your lights. I hope that I am reading your post wrong, because this sounds dangerous.

Ralph
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lthenderson
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by lthenderson »

Surge protectors work by funneling off excess electricity from the hot wire to the ground wire. It essentially doesn't fail and stop working but instead gets to the point where it can't funnel off those surges to the ground wire effectively anymore and hence the reason for the light. I would at least drill a hole in the panel so that I could see the light to ensure it is working properly.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by Luke Duke »

I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm Bogleheads are knowledgeable, and so here goes...

I just had an electrician install a whole-house surge protector today, along with the upgrade of our breaker panel. We got a Eaton CHSPT2SURGE. (I paid way more than I probably should have for the part and labor but it was definitely not a DIY for my level of skill.) Anyway, I thought I knew how it would work... it would take electrical hits over time until it failed, rather than letting surges (except for something really powerful like a lightning strike) through to the house's electronics.

The electrician installed it in such a way that I'd have to remove the outer part of the panel to see if the 2 lights are on to show it is operating. So I asked him, with the lights not in view, how will I know the unit is dead and in need of replacement? Like, would the house's power be out but toggling the breakers wouldn't help?

To my surprise, if I heard the electrician correctly, he said electricity would still be running to the house if the protector failed.

Huh? :?:

He then proceeded to turn the breakers to which the protector is connected to the off position... and all the lights stayed on.

Double huh? :?: :?:

Does this thing sound like it is installed correctly? I checked the company's credentials ahead of time, and they seemed licensed with my city.

Thoughts?
Post a picture of the install.
barnaclebob
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by barnaclebob »

I think there might be some confusion because you made it sound like he flipped the breakers to the lights but the lights still stayed on.

He is right and that if the protector fails, you'll still have power as it works kind of like fused overflow valve. Is the protector wired into a single breaker and that's what he flipped off? If so then I think you are good to go as long as the actual breakers to the other circuits still work.
Last edited by barnaclebob on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
random_walker_77
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by random_walker_77 »

That sounds about right to me. I've looked into them and am planning to put one in, perhaps next year. They are wired in, in parallel. A big surge is funneled through it, and they'll eventually burn out ( typically as an open circuit, similar to the way a light bulb will burn out).
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by TimeRunner »

Google "electrical panel inspection window" for options to at least be able to see the lights on your surge protector. Consult a local commercial electrician to make sure whatever one you or he/she installs meets code requirements. (I am not an electrician, just a DIY'er.)
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I looked up the installation guide http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/ ... 14001y.pdf

This is a "divert to ground" type device. It works with a dedicated 2 pole circuit breaker (one pole for each 1/2 phase) with a connection to earth and neutral. If an overvoltage is detected, it reacts, diverting current to ground to limit the voltage. Since it's connected essentially in parallel to all other house loads, if the circuit breaker is shut off or if the unit is dead, the house becomes unprotected.

A "better" system would mimic what automotive and railway protective systems use, which is a series connected protection. In these systems, an overvoltage opens the series pass element, isolating the house from the lines. This is much more complicated and expensive to make and if it were to fail, the failure method would determine if the house is still connected or not.

Many electronic devices use somewhat of a combination of series and parallel devices. They use a series fuse with a downstream MOV or spark gap. If a high voltage is present for long enough, the downstream device shorts and this blows the series fuse. Other implementations could use a resetable fuse of some kind.

If you have some expensive electronics, I'd consider using something right at the plug of the electronic component. There are all kinds of ways to get that all the way up to military UPS units that take input AC to develop a "mid bus" (double conversion) from which an inverter generates an output sine wave.

I wouldn't worry about a device to protect from lightning strikes. We had one hit a neighbor's house some time ago. Our porch lights got really bright for a moment. The neighbor's house had a 3 foot hold blown from the roof down to the electrical panel, vaporizing all the wiring in the house and blowing the panel across the basement. Lightning would laugh at this surge protector before vaporizing it.
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I_Am_Not_A_Doctor
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

scifilover wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:46 am Surge protector is a sacrificial device.
See: From Wikipedia...."A surge protector (or surge suppressor or surge diverter) is an appliance or device designed to protect electrical devices from voltage spikes. A surge protector attempts to limit the voltage supplied to an electric device by either blocking or shorting to ground any unwanted voltages above a safe threshold."

So voltages less than threshold pass through and higher go to ground. If surge big enough, device burns out but current stays on.
I figured a surge protector was a sacrificial device. I suppose I assumed, incorrectly it seems, that the sacrifice would cut the rest of the house off from the grid.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

ralph124cf wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:05 am The way I read your post, it sounds like the surge protector was wired in such a way that it bypasses the circuit breakers to continue delivering current to your lights. I hope that I am reading your post wrong, because this sounds dangerous.

Ralph
I could very much be doing a poor job of describing it. It was completed by a licensed/bonded/insured electrical contractor, so hopefully it is correct.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

Luke Duke wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:41 am
I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm Bogleheads are knowledgeable, and so here goes...

I just had an electrician install a whole-house surge protector today, along with the upgrade of our breaker panel. We got a Eaton CHSPT2SURGE. (I paid way more than I probably should have for the part and labor but it was definitely not a DIY for my level of skill.) Anyway, I thought I knew how it would work... it would take electrical hits over time until it failed, rather than letting surges (except for something really powerful like a lightning strike) through to the house's electronics.

The electrician installed it in such a way that I'd have to remove the outer part of the panel to see if the 2 lights are on to show it is operating. So I asked him, with the lights not in view, how will I know the unit is dead and in need of replacement? Like, would the house's power be out but toggling the breakers wouldn't help?

To my surprise, if I heard the electrician correctly, he said electricity would still be running to the house if the protector failed.

Huh? :?:

He then proceeded to turn the breakers to which the protector is connected to the off position... and all the lights stayed on.

Double huh? :?: :?:

Does this thing sound like it is installed correctly? I checked the company's credentials ahead of time, and they seemed licensed with my city.

Thoughts?
Post a picture of the install.
I'd be concerned about voiding any labor warranties if I go poking around the panel too much. Would a picture of the panel with the cover on help any?
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

barnaclebob wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:45 am I think there might be some confusion because you made it sound like he flipped the breakers to the lights but the lights still stayed on.

He is right and that if the protector fails, you'll still have power as it works kind of like fused overflow valve. Is the protector wired into a single breaker and that's what he flipped off? If so then I think you are good to go as long as the actual breakers to the other circuits still work.
Apologies for any confusion... the whole matter seems to be confusing to me. :confused

The breaker he flipped back and forth was the breaker connected to the surge protector only. Whether that was switched on or off didn't affect the rest of the lights.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

TimeRunner wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:03 am Google "electrical panel inspection window" for options to at least be able to see the lights on your surge protector. Consult a local commercial electrician to make sure whatever one you or he/she installs meets code requirements. (I am not an electrician, just a DIY'er.)
A local licensed electrician is who installed it this way, hidden from view inside the panel cover. Do I need to go back to the contracting company and fight them to have it remounted in clearer view? Does removing some of the "knock outs" on the panel count as an option?
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:06 am I looked up the installation guide http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/ ... 14001y.pdf

This is a "divert to ground" type device. It works with a dedicated 2 pole circuit breaker (one pole for each 1/2 phase) with a connection to earth and neutral. If an overvoltage is detected, it reacts, diverting current to ground to limit the voltage. Since it's connected essentially in parallel to all other house loads, if the circuit breaker is shut off or if the unit is dead, the house becomes unprotected.

A "better" system would mimic what automotive and railway protective systems use, which is a series connected protection. In these systems, an overvoltage opens the series pass element, isolating the house from the lines. This is much more complicated and expensive to make and if it were to fail, the failure method would determine if the house is still connected or not.

Many electronic devices use somewhat of a combination of series and parallel devices. They use a series fuse with a downstream MOV or spark gap. If a high voltage is present for long enough, the downstream device shorts and this blows the series fuse. Other implementations could use a resetable fuse of some kind.

If you have some expensive electronics, I'd consider using something right at the plug of the electronic component. There are all kinds of ways to get that all the way up to military UPS units that take input AC to develop a "mid bus" (double conversion) from which an inverter generates an output sine wave.

I wouldn't worry about a device to protect from lightning strikes. We had one hit a neighbor's house some time ago. Our porch lights got really bright for a moment. The neighbor's house had a 3 foot hold blown from the roof down to the electrical panel, vaporizing all the wiring in the house and blowing the panel across the basement. Lightning would laugh at this surge protector before vaporizing it.
I figure nature laughs at any attempt to reign it in, lightning included. :happy

But, when you say "if the circuit breaker is shut off or if the unit is dead, the house becomes unprotected", I think that makes sense... if that also means the rest of the house is still powered, but just unprotected?
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by 808 »

I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:27 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:06 am I looked up the installation guide http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/ ... 14001y.pdf

This is a "divert to ground" type device. It works with a dedicated 2 pole circuit breaker (one pole for each 1/2 phase) with a connection to earth and neutral. If an overvoltage is detected, it reacts, diverting current to ground to limit the voltage. Since it's connected essentially in parallel to all other house loads, if the circuit breaker is shut off or if the unit is dead, the house becomes unprotected.

A "better" system would mimic what automotive and railway protective systems use, which is a series connected protection. In these systems, an overvoltage opens the series pass element, isolating the house from the lines. This is much more complicated and expensive to make and if it were to fail, the failure method would determine if the house is still connected or not.

Many electronic devices use somewhat of a combination of series and parallel devices. They use a series fuse with a downstream MOV or spark gap. If a high voltage is present for long enough, the downstream device shorts and this blows the series fuse. Other implementations could use a resetable fuse of some kind.

If you have some expensive electronics, I'd consider using something right at the plug of the electronic component. There are all kinds of ways to get that all the way up to military UPS units that take input AC to develop a "mid bus" (double conversion) from which an inverter generates an output sine wave.

I wouldn't worry about a device to protect from lightning strikes. We had one hit a neighbor's house some time ago. Our porch lights got really bright for a moment. The neighbor's house had a 3 foot hold blown from the roof down to the electrical panel, vaporizing all the wiring in the house and blowing the panel across the basement. Lightning would laugh at this surge protector before vaporizing it.
I figure nature laughs at any attempt to reign it in, lightning included. :happy

But, when you say "if the circuit breaker is shut off or if the unit is dead, the house becomes unprotected", I think that makes sense... if that also means the rest of the house is still powered, but just unprotected?
That's what he means. If you look at figure 6, the protector is tapping into your existing power feeds, the black and red wires, to handle the surge. If the protector dies, or the breaker trips, the power feeds (solid dark lines/bars) still powers the house.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by Luke Duke »

I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:21 pm
Luke Duke wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:41 am
I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm Bogleheads are knowledgeable, and so here goes...

I just had an electrician install a whole-house surge protector today, along with the upgrade of our breaker panel. We got a Eaton CHSPT2SURGE. (I paid way more than I probably should have for the part and labor but it was definitely not a DIY for my level of skill.) Anyway, I thought I knew how it would work... it would take electrical hits over time until it failed, rather than letting surges (except for something really powerful like a lightning strike) through to the house's electronics.

The electrician installed it in such a way that I'd have to remove the outer part of the panel to see if the 2 lights are on to show it is operating. So I asked him, with the lights not in view, how will I know the unit is dead and in need of replacement? Like, would the house's power be out but toggling the breakers wouldn't help?

To my surprise, if I heard the electrician correctly, he said electricity would still be running to the house if the protector failed.

Huh? :?:

He then proceeded to turn the breakers to which the protector is connected to the off position... and all the lights stayed on.

Double huh? :?: :?:

Does this thing sound like it is installed correctly? I checked the company's credentials ahead of time, and they seemed licensed with my city.

Thoughts?
Post a picture of the install.
I'd be concerned about voiding any labor warranties if I go poking around the panel too much. Would a picture of the panel with the cover on help any?
A picture with the cover in place is worthless. Definitely don't remove the panel if you aren't comfortable doing so.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by jabberwockOG »

I'd call the installer company and tell them you are unhappy with the installation of the SP that hides its indicator lights. The SP should have been installed so that indicator lights are visible for inspection (even if the panel cover had to be modified or changed to make the lights visible).
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Yes, the added breakers are the connection to power. They ONLY go to the surge protection unit. Think of that as a breaker that only goes to the outlet right next to your breaker box. You can turn that on and off and the rest of the house is powered....just that particular outlet isn't powered. With the protection unit, turn the breaker on and off and it simply connects or disconnects the surge unit from the half phases (the house power). If the surge unit fails open, it's as if it's not there. The house power is still there as if there was no surge unit. If the surge unit fails shorted, it trips the breaker that goes only to the surge unit. The rest of the house remains powered.

While this thing is considered a "whole house" unit, being fed by wimpy 15A breakers tells me that it's not going to do much for serious surges or hits. I don't know the voltage where it clamps. For stuff that's worth serious money, I'd still put some kind of surge protection right at its input, even if it's a cheapo "protected" power strip that has a light to say protection is still good.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by barnaclebob »

I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:23 pm
barnaclebob wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:45 am I think there might be some confusion because you made it sound like he flipped the breakers to the lights but the lights still stayed on.

He is right and that if the protector fails, you'll still have power as it works kind of like fused overflow valve. Is the protector wired into a single breaker and that's what he flipped off? If so then I think you are good to go as long as the actual breakers to the other circuits still work.
Apologies for any confusion... the whole matter seems to be confusing to me. :confused

The breaker he flipped back and forth was the breaker connected to the surge protector only. Whether that was switched on or off didn't affect the rest of the lights.
Then your surge protector is almost certainly installed correctly. Current only flows through it to escape the system and when it burns up that path is now gone but your system will function just like it did before just without surge protection.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by barnaclebob »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:06 am While this thing is considered a "whole house" unit, being fed by wimpy 15A breakers tells me that it's not going to do much for serious surges or hits.
My understanding is that surges happen faster than breakers can trip so the amperage of the breaker its connected to doesnt really matter. None of them will stop a direct lightning strike to the house that gets into the wiring but maybe it will save you from a strike to your neighbors house or the nearest power pole.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by an_asker »

I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm Bogleheads are knowledgeable, and so here goes...

I just had an electrician install a whole-house surge protector today, along with the upgrade of our breaker panel. We got a Eaton CHSPT2SURGE. (I paid way more than I probably should have for the part and labor but it was definitely not a DIY for my level of skill.) Anyway, I thought I knew how it would work... it would take electrical hits over time until it failed, rather than letting surges (except for something really powerful like a lightning strike) through to the house's electronics.
[...]
I'd appreciate it if you could share some relevant information about the cost and what kind of labor it entailed. Also, what was the labor a function of, was it number of circuits, number of rooms, time it took ... or did he estimate all of this and quote you one number that he stuck to?
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by nisiprius »

A surge protector doesn't work by blocking the surge. It works by absorbing the surge and dumping it to ground.

Nothing you've said sounds wrong. Our whole-house surge protector is mounted outside the main breaker box, so that the lights on it are visible when the door of the breaker box is closed... and in our case the breaker box has a door that is easily opened, anyway.

(I do not feel like shutting off the main breaker just to see what the surge protector does, sorry...)

I did once have an extension-cord-and-outlet-strip with a surge protector, and one day I noticed that the protection indicator light was no longer lit... and yet the outlet strip still delivered power to the outlets.

At least some low-power surge protectors are little electronic components sealed in a blob and wired in parallel directly across the two power wires.

P.S. Our whole-house surge protector cost something like $300 installed.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by an_asker »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:54 am A surge protector doesn't work by blocking the surge. It works by absorbing the surge and dumping it to ground.

Nothing you've said sounds wrong. Our whole-house surge protector is mounted outside the main breaker box, so that the lights on it are visible when the door of the breaker box is closed... and in our case the breaker box has a door that is easily opened, anyway.

(I do not feel like shutting off the main breaker just to see what the surge protector does, sorry...)

I did once have an extension-cord-and-outlet-strip with a surge protector, and one day I noticed that the protection indicator light was no longer lit... and yet the outlet strip still delivered power to the outlets.

At least some low-power surge protectors are little electronic components sealed in a blob and wired in parallel directly across the two power wires.

P.S. Our whole-house surge protector cost something like $300 installed.
Based on the OP, let me draw a schematic (hopefully this comes out OK):

Code: Select all

                                           .......surge protector.........
             <--to rest of the house ...../                               \...........<< power company
                                          \......circuit breaker box....../
Please let me know which of the following statements is true (or are both true?):

a) if one of the breaker trips, power will still go to that circuit (but this scenario should never arise because the higher power will be channeled via the surge protector)

b) if the surge protector trips, electricity will continue to go to the house via the circuit breaker box.

In case of b) though, I don't really like it. Why? Because if two surges happen back to back, the surge protector is gone as is/are the corresponding circuit breakers and connected appliances. Shouldn't they be connected in series instead of parallel? Needless to say, that would mean that the house loses power when the surge protector blows. So I don't know if that is a good option either.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by nisiprius »

No. I think your diagram is wrong. ALERT: ALL I DID was do a Google image search and pick out a picture I like, so do not trust this for anything at all, but here is one picture I saw, and it "looks right."

Image

The surge protector is in parallel, across the wires. The wires go straight through to wherever they are going. The house current does go "through" the surge protector; it doesn't interrupt the current flow along the wires, it doesn't act like a gatekeeper.

Instead, when the voltage gets too high, it suddenly begins to conduct and shorts the surge to ground and bleeds it off that way. It has a certain amount of energy it can dissipate; if that's exceeded, it is destroyed in some engineered, safe way that doesn't set fire to anything, and then it no longer conducts current at all, and your house continues to receive normal current but surges will once again be conducted into your house.

The Wikipedia article on surge protectors has a wealth of information on the many different kinds of energy-absorbing technologies used, but, alas, not much on how surge protectors are wired into a house.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

jabberwockOG wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:25 am I'd call the installer company and tell them you are unhappy with the installation of the SP that hides its indicator lights. The SP should have been installed so that indicator lights are visible for inspection (even if the panel cover had to be modified or changed to make the lights visible).
I did just that. I was told that he'll be back out a week from this Friday to discuss mounting options.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

an_asker wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:29 am
I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm Bogleheads are knowledgeable, and so here goes...

I just had an electrician install a whole-house surge protector today, along with the upgrade of our breaker panel. We got a Eaton CHSPT2SURGE. (I paid way more than I probably should have for the part and labor but it was definitely not a DIY for my level of skill.) Anyway, I thought I knew how it would work... it would take electrical hits over time until it failed, rather than letting surges (except for something really powerful like a lightning strike) through to the house's electronics.
[...]
I'd appreciate it if you could share some relevant information about the cost and what kind of labor it entailed. Also, what was the labor a function of, was it number of circuits, number of rooms, time it took ... or did he estimate all of this and quote you one number that he stuck to?
I was quoted a price for a 200A panel, 200A outside service, grounding up to code, and the surge protector, and all the labor involved. It was about $3000, about $600 more than the next lowest competitor, but lower than others. But the lower-priced competitor showed resistance in supplying the proper paperwork, particularly proof of workers compensation insurance. That was enough of a red flag that I passed on him and paid the higher price rather than take the risk of the contractor who hesitated to provide paperwork.
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

By the way, thanks to all the Bogleheads responding to this thread! I may have paid more than I could have but I'm feeling better that the install seems correct. And I'll feel even better once the contractor is back out to remount (at no cost to me, I hope, because of the labor warranties involved).

Cheers! :sharebeer
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dratkinson
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by dratkinson »

The short answer. Your SP is installed and working correctly. Your SP is mounted INSIDE your breaker panel. Your problem is with the aesthetics of the installation; you can change that.


The long answer.

Sounds like your breaker panel is mounted in a finished wall and electrician (and you) didn't want to put a hole in your finished wall to mount the SP so it would be visible OUTSIDE of your panel. (Which can be done. You just then install the optional flush-mount-kit panel over the new hole and SP---~$35 option for a little piece of sheet metal and two screws.)

The instruction sheet that came with your SP should identify the flush mount kit part number and screw size.



Disclosure. I installed the same SP on the outside of my breaker panel (finished wall garage side, open wall storage room) so it's visible from the back side in a storage room. Of course that means I have to go into the storage room to ensure it's still okay (lights on). It's on my list of things-to-do to make it easier to view the SP lights.

Option #1 for easier SP visibility. Thinking about making my own finished-wall flush-mount kit and remounting SP so it's easily visible in garage. Should be easy to do; just need a piece of sheet metal, two screws, and some black spray paint to match the official ~$35 part. Or I could go wild and paint it to match the garage wall color.

Option #2 for easier SP visibility. Will research TimeRunner's idea of installing a breaker panel inspection window. Thanks for the idea.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
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F150HD
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by F150HD »

I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm The electrician installed it in such a way that I'd have to remove the outer part of the panel to see if the 2 lights are on to show it is operating.
I_Am_Not_A_Doctor wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:25 pm A local licensed electrician is who installed it this way, hidden from view inside the panel cover. Do I need to go back to the contracting company and fight them to have it remounted in clearer view? Does removing some of the "knock outs" on the panel count as an option?
jabberwockOG wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:25 am I'd call the installer company and tell them you are unhappy with the installation of the SP that hides its indicator lights. The SP should have been installed so that indicator lights are visible for inspection (even if the panel cover had to be modified or changed to make the lights visible).
I have one, but the breaker box is manufactured by the same company as the inline surge protector (GE). I see a little 'green' LED that mine is on/working. When upgrading the breaker box, I purposefully bought a surge protector and box by the same manufacturer (GE).

Image
Long is the way and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light.
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I_Am_Not_A_Doctor
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

dratkinson wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:22 pm Sounds like your breaker panel is mounted in a finished wall
Correct. The panel is in the garage with a finished wall on the inside and a brick wall on the outside.
dratkinson wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:22 pm ... and electrician (and you) didn't want to put a hole in your finished wall to mount the SP so it would be visible OUTSIDE of your panel.
Not quite correct. The electrician did not provide me this option. I'm not sure why it wasn't discussed with me; I was nearby. But the electrician is coming back to discuss mounting options that make the indicator lights visible.
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dratkinson
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by dratkinson »

@F150HD. A few years back, I installed a SP device like yours in my first circuit breaker panel (workshop service entrance). Bought from HD and remember it being an inexpensive easy homeowner install. I leave the panel cover open so I can see the green light when I walk by.

I think it has already saved me once because last Spring my neighbor (on same utility pole transformer) lost their lawn sprinkler controller and cordless phone system after a thunderstorm. I lost nothing, so Yea!


Shortly after that, a forum topic discussed SP devices and someone posted a link to a review of many. Couldn't find the forum topic again, but a second search did find the linked article.

See "What's the 'Best' Whole-House Surge Protection?": https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/ ... rotection/

Long story short. OP's installed Eaton unit was recommended. Article also recommended using multiple SP devices (types 1, 2 and 3) for a defense-in-depth. So bought (HD) and installed the Eaton SP in a second breaker panel (garage/house). If the cheaper GE SP sacrifices itself first and saves the more expensive Eaton SP, then great!

Belt and suspenders:
--First circuit breaker panel (workshop service entrance): GE SP device, visible with panel door open.
--Second circuit breaker panel (garage/house): Eaton SP device, visible in storage room unfinished wall.
--Type 3 SP (power strips) for computer, TV,....



OP. From link above, this is what Eaton SP looks like installed under a breaker panel in an unfinished wall.

Image


And this is the flush mount panel that would cover the hole/SP in a finished wall.

Image
https://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-CH ... B0073FRJ9K


In a finished wall, the SP is installed through a hole adjacent to the circuit breaker panel. The hole/SP is covered by an optional flush mount panel which dresses up the hole and leaves SP visible. The flush mount panel kit part number should be identified in your instruction booklet. (According to my booklet, the flush mount kit is part number CHSPFMKIT. The "CH" part numbers come from Eaton buying Cutler Hammer and keeping the old part numbers. Double check yours is the same.)

If you order flush mount panel kit from Amazon, please use Amazon referral link at screen top so forum gets a referral fee. (I don't know how to edit Amazon URL to insert forum's referral link.)


The electrician may not have known your's was a finished wall installation. Rhetorical question: Did you tell him before he came that your's was a finished wall and that you wanted SP installed so it was visible? So installing it inside your circuit breaker panel was faster than mounting it outside the panel, especially if he didn't have/know to bring flush mount panel kit.

I'd expect an additional charge if he installs the additional part (flush mount panel kit). It's nice being an American and being able to throw money at a problem and get it solved. :) (This is what I tell myself every time I pay the dealer to repair my old vehicle, so I don't have to buy a new one.)
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
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I_Am_Not_A_Doctor
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

dratkinson wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:09 am @F150HD. A few years back, I installed a SP device like yours in my first circuit breaker panel (workshop service entrance). Bought from HD and remember it being an inexpensive easy homeowner install. I leave the panel cover open so I can see the green light when I walk by.

I think it has already saved me once because last Spring my neighbor (on same utility pole transformer) lost their lawn sprinkler controller and cordless phone system after a thunderstorm. I lost nothing, so Yea!


Shortly after that, a forum topic discussed SP devices and someone posted a link to a review of many. Couldn't find the forum topic again, but a second search did find the linked article.

See "What's the 'Best' Whole-House Surge Protection?": https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/ ... rotection/

Long story short. OP's installed Eaton unit was recommended. Article also recommended using multiple SP devices (types 1, 2 and 3) for a defense-in-depth. So bought (HD) and installed the Eaton SP in a second breaker panel (garage/house). If the cheaper GE SP sacrifices itself first and saves the more expensive Eaton SP, then great!

Belt and suspenders:
--First circuit breaker panel (workshop service entrance): GE SP device, visible with panel door open.
--Second circuit breaker panel (garage/house): Eaton SP device, visible in storage room unfinished wall.
--Type 3 SP (power strips) for computer, TV,....



OP. From link above, this is what Eaton SP looks like installed under a breaker panel in an unfinished wall.

Image


And this is the flush mount panel that would cover the hole/SP in a finished wall.

Image
https://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-CH ... B0073FRJ9K


In a finished wall, the SP is installed through a hole adjacent to the circuit breaker panel. The hole/SP is covered by an optional flush mount panel which dresses up the hole and leaves SP visible. The flush mount panel kit part number should be identified in your instruction booklet. (According to my booklet, the flush mount kit is part number CHSPFMKIT. The "CH" part numbers come from Eaton buying Cutler Hammer and keeping the old part numbers. Double check yours is the same.)

If you order flush mount panel kit from Amazon, please use Amazon referral link at screen top so forum gets a referral fee. (I don't know how to edit Amazon URL to insert forum's referral link.)


The electrician may not have known your's was a finished wall installation. Rhetorical question: Did you tell him before he came that your's was a finished wall and that you wanted SP installed so it was visible? So installing it inside your circuit breaker panel was faster than mounting it outside the panel, especially if he didn't have/know to bring flush mount panel kit.

I'd expect an additional charge if he installs the additional part (flush mount panel kit). It's nice being an American and being able to throw money at a problem and get it solved. :) (This is what I tell myself every time I pay the dealer to repair my old vehicle, so I don't have to buy a new one.)
The topic of whether or not my wall was finished never came up while making arrangements. I didn't know it was something to discuss ahead of time. But even while the job was being done, I was around to answer questions but didn't know about the installation until all was done and they were heading out the door.
sixty40
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by sixty40 »

Hope this can clarify some things on surge protective devices (SPD’s)

- SPD’s are typically connected in parallel to the panel bussing. It is a bypass device. When a surge occurs, it senses it and before it can go through your panel bussing into your home devices, it takes to surge and dissipates to the ground, the physical earth.

- The 2-pole circuit breaker “feeding” the SPD is mainly for servicing and providing overcurrent protection for the SPD. The SPD will not trip the main breaker for the panel. The breaker feeding the SPD is usually low amperage in the 15 to 20 Amp range. It is a misconception that surges are high amperage, in fact most surges are very low amperage but extremely high voltage. A high voltage in the thousands of volts entering your electrical system will most likely burn up all your appliances unless they are some surge protection. In fact we install SPD’s in panels in 3000 Amp panels and we only use a 30 Amp breaker feeding the SPD.

- The panel typically has a hinged cover, and then what is called the “dead front”. If you remove the dead front, all the bussing and wires are exposed. Only qualified electricians should open the dead front. The SPD should have been installed connected to the side of the panel. If it was installed inside the panel and behind the dead front where it is not visible, it was probably installed incorrectly and this should be corrected. The front of the SPD with all the lights need to be visible w/o having to open up the panel or dead front.

- Switching ON/OFF the breaker feeding the SPD will not affect the panel power.

- The SPD will fail open, like an open circuit, so it will not affect the power to the panel.
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I_Am_Not_A_Doctor
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

sixty40 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:46 am Hope this can clarify some things on surge protective devices (SPD’s)

- SPD’s are typically connected in parallel to the panel bussing. It is a bypass device. When a surge occurs, it senses it and before it can go through your panel bussing into your home devices, it takes to surge and dissipates to the ground, the physical earth.

- The 2-pole circuit breaker “feeding” the SPD is mainly for servicing and providing overcurrent protection for the SPD. The SPD will not trip the main breaker for the panel. The breaker feeding the SPD is usually low amperage in the 15 to 20 Amp range. It is a misconception that surges are high amperage, in fact most surges are very low amperage but extremely high voltage. A high voltage in the thousands of volts entering your electrical system will most likely burn up all your appliances unless they are some surge protection. In fact we install SPD’s in panels in 3000 Amp panels and we only use a 30 Amp breaker feeding the SPD.

- The panel typically has a hinged cover, and then what is called the “dead front”. If you remove the dead front, all the bussing and wires are exposed. Only qualified electricians should open the dead front. The SPD should have been installed connected to the side of the panel. If it was installed inside the panel and behind the dead front where it is not visible, it was probably installed incorrectly and this should be corrected. The front of the SPD with all the lights need to be visible w/o having to open up the panel or dead front.

- Switching ON/OFF the breaker feeding the SPD will not affect the panel power.

- The SPD will fail open, like an open circuit, so it will not affect the power to the panel.
From what you're describing, the surge protectors in behind the "dead front". I'd have to unscrew the panel and expose the wiring, etc. to see the surge protector and its indicator lights.

The co-owner of the contractor company told me it was mounted there to avoid putting holes in my wall. But, had they asked, I would have said put the holes in the wall; I want to be able to see the indicator lights. They're coming back next week. I plan to remind them they didn't ask and they offered a labor warranty in writing... so I don't intend to pay (and they haven't said that they'd charge for the return visit).
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

Just FYI - The contractor came back out to the house and repositioned the surge protector from inside the closed panel to outside the panel, beneath the panel. So now, at a glance, I can see the indicator lights are working. So all seems correct now, and I didn't have to spend any more money on it.

That sounds like a win to me. :beer
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by nisiprius »

Congratulations! :sharebeer
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by dratkinson »

How did they leave it finished under your panel?
--In a small, neat hole in the wall?
--In a small, neat hole in the wall, dressed up by a flush mount panel? If so did they use the Eaton part, or did they make one on-site?
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Re: Whole House Surge Protector still works with breaker off?

Post by I_Am_Not_A_Doctor »

The latter, I think. Meaning, I don't know it was the Eaton part, but I don't think he fabricated anything onsite.
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