My dad's army jacket

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denovo
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by denovo »

dia wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:11 am and will be removing the patches.


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No, don't do that!!!
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SueG5123
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by SueG5123 »

Spirit Rider, thanks for the recap of U.S. Code on the subject of uniforms. Interesting. Assume the mere fact it is specified in US Code is considered its own deterrent, as I'm having a tough time imagining any literal enforcement. I think a lawyer would have a field day (not a Navy one :D ) defending someone for this.
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by minesweep »

dia wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:11 am I am wearing it for no other reason than it was his, held importance for him and it's a beautiful garment that has been hanging in a closet since he returned from service.
What do you think your father would want you to do with the jacket?
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BolderBoy
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by BolderBoy »

djpeteski wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:30 amStolen Valor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2013 comes into play if you claim that you earned his awards.
Not so fast. The rest of the law states that such a claim has to be in order to gain a tangible benefit (eg, money).

I say if you want to wear it, wear it.
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maxq
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by maxq »

I'm retired US Air Force and have no problem with him wearing something like this, as he noted he planned to remove the accoutrements. I still have my BDU field jacket with insulated liner (removed rank, badges and patches) and am glad to have it on the one or two winter days we get in Houston every year or so. The OP isn't trying to be something he isn't. Rather, he is honoring the service of his father. I'm not sure about the jacket as a fashion statement these days. It'd look perhaps rather slovenly if unbuttoned, and I have a feeling not terribly comfortable when buttoned. I'm convinced military dress uniforms are designed to look good only when standing at attention, not for sitting or working. :-)
Spirit Rider
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by Spirit Rider »

SueG5123 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:31 am Spirit Rider, thanks for the recap of U.S. Code on the subject of uniforms. Interesting. Assume the mere fact it is specified in US Code is considered its own deterrent, as I'm having a tough time imagining any literal enforcement. I think a lawyer would have a field day (not a Navy one :D ) defending someone for this.
My guess is that it is an anachronism. To a time when a service member was only off base with a pass or leave papers and pay was so bad that many didn't even own civvies. This is probably the reason why you can wear your uniform after discharge every day for three months, because they didn't have or couldn't afford otherwise.

I think the 60s and 70s probably eliminated any practical enforcement. I served for six years during the 70s and we were ordered to not wear any uniforms off base so as not to inflame tensions. I would think the only time this statute is ever applied is in conjunction with other crimes. Force protection violations, personal gain, fraud or harm to others.
rec7
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by rec7 »

I don't understand why there would be any problem. That jacket is about 60 years old. Not like it is the current issue.
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warner25
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by warner25 »

I'm on active duty. I've always thought that when civilians wear military uniform pieces, it's kind of like a Yankees fan wearing a Derek Jeter jersey. It's maybe a little silly for an adult to do, but I still feel honored. My dad (who never served) wears a hat with a bunch of my rank insignia and other badges pinned onto it because he's proud. When I get promoted or something, I'm happy to buy an extra pin for his collection. When people ask, he loves to talk about me.

Of course, some of my peers are very sensitive to this stuff, so who knows what you could run into. The actual "stolen valor" cases are very ugly. To be honest, I'm also a little put off by actual veterans parading around in military stuff after they've left the service, kind of like former high school quarterbacks still clinging to the good old days, but that's their choice within the constraints of the law and service regulations.
azurekep
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by azurekep »

dia wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:11 am I am getting mixed reactions from people that feel it would be disrespectful to wear it. I do not want to offend anyone--I have taken off the pins (keeping them in the pocket) and will be removing the patches.

I look to this group as the voice of reason: is this wrong? I didn't serve and the last thing I want to do is offend.
Maybe a compromise... Wear it when in a group of people where you know there won't be an emotional reaction, or at least not a negative emotional reaction..

When out in the general public -- where you will find people with as many varied opinions as on this thread -- leave it at home.

It's like deciding whether or not to put a bumper sticker on your car. Even non-political ones like "My child was an honor student at XYZ school", which are worn with pride and make the parent feel supremely good, can (I suppose) be viewed by fellow drivers with resentment or ridicule. You just never know. Better to not attract too much attention in a city or on the road and live to see another day. ;)

Just as an aside, as sort of an illustration of the meaning imbued in various military items, the latest Jack Reacher book is all about Reacher trying to locate the owner of a pawned West Point class ring. The premise is that it took four hard years to earn the ring, so if it ended up in a pawn shop, the owner must have fallen on hard times. Reacher felt his duty as a former cadet and military officer was to look into the circumstances which led to the owner giving up the ring, find the owner and return the ring. This is all fiction of course and this is Reacher we're talking about, but I think the book, in a small way, illustrates the emotional impact of military symbolism.
goldendad
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by goldendad »

20 years US Navy. Rank and insignia should only be worn by those who have earned them. The framing idea is a good one.
StoneyJB
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by StoneyJB »

My Dad was Army Air Corps WW2. 8th AAF 13th Photo Squadron 78 Missions over Germany "Alone, Unarmed and Unafraid" ...he left me his A-2 Flight Jacket... I wear it Proudly in Public whenever I want, and get nods from many folks who served and remember WW2... don't like it... Too Bad!
MoonOrb
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by MoonOrb »

If you remove the insignia and patches it's fine IMO. I side-eye people who wear military gear as casual clothing when the rank insignia and other things are still visible (with the exception of ball caps, for some reason, that never bothers me). On the other hand, if I knew in advance that the people were wearing it were doing so out of love and respect for the person who earned it, I wouldn't be bothered.

Once the patches and insignia are off of the jacket, it's just a jacket. You are the one who gets to decide what is a loving and appropriate tribute to your father; taking the patches off isn't disrespectful to him. If wearing it gives you comfort, you should wear it.

Just one data point here. I think the main takeaway is that if you wear it in public with insignia still on it, it may make some people uncomfortable and you should be prepared for that.

I'm not very sentimental and didn't keep any of my uniforms, and if they're out there somewhere and people have stripped the rank and other patches off and are wearing them, that's certainly fine with me.
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cfs
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by cfs »

Military retiree with over three decades in active duty and son of an Army WWII disabled veteran [RIP]. I don't have any issues with anyone wearing items from their deceased dad's military uniform to show their pride and respect. I do have issues with those disrespecting my flag and those disrespecting my national anthem, and I know that none of them are members of this patriotic forum. Thanks for reading, God Bless You and your family, Happy Thanksgiving, and Merry Christmas.
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RustyShackleford
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by RustyShackleford »

My opinion is that this is still a free country, not a military dictatorship, and you should do as you please. If it feels disrespectful to you to wear it, or to wear it in public, do not do so. If it does not feel that way, wear it.
joeblow
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by joeblow »

Seriously? If you want to wear the coat wear the coat, if not don't wear it. Way too much thought being put into it.

Some people get offended at the slightest thing, most will not give it a second thought.
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celia
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by celia »

Let's set aside the idea that it is an army jacket.

OP, if your parent/grandparent had been a policeman, surgeon, construction worker, postal employee, UPS driver, or worked for a company with a uniform, would you wear their work clothes in public?
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whodidntante
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by whodidntante »

I wouldn't find it disrespectful because you are not intending or doing any harm. I don't think I can predict the reactions of others any better than you can.
azurekep
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by azurekep »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:49 am I wouldn't find it disrespectful because you are not intending or doing any harm. I don't think I can predict the reactions of others any better than you can.
I always think of the extreme cases. :)

Like, in every major city there are vets suffering from PTSD that have not been properly treated. Wearing an army jacket, even if it's from the wrong war, might bring up bad experiences and cause undesired behavior. Or it might bring out of a desire to talk, which may be unwanted when you're on your way to a meeting.

The likelihood of either of those happening is low, but if one values walking around town undisturbed, those are things you tend to think about.
ncbill
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by ncbill »

Spirit Rider wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:11 am
SueG5123 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:31 am Spirit Rider, thanks for the recap of U.S. Code on the subject of uniforms. Interesting. Assume the mere fact it is specified in US Code is considered its own deterrent, as I'm having a tough time imagining any literal enforcement. I think a lawyer would have a field day (not a Navy one :D ) defending someone for this.
My guess is that it is an anachronism. To a time when a service member was only off base with a pass or leave papers and pay was so bad that many didn't even own civvies. This is probably the reason why you can wear your uniform after discharge every day for three months, because they didn't have or couldn't afford otherwise.

I think the 60s and 70s probably eliminated any practical enforcement. I served for six years during the 70s and we were ordered to not wear any uniforms off base so as not to inflame tensions. I would think the only time this statute is ever applied is in conjunction with other crimes. Force protection violations, personal gain, fraud or harm to others.
I have a 1930s copy of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bluejacket%27s_Manual
which advises getting rid of all civilian clothing.

It also refers to the Arizona as the pride of the fleet...
SueG5123
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by SueG5123 »

It also refers to the Arizona as the pride of the fleet...

Oh? Was there some reason why the USS Arizona wasn't the pride of thevThird Fleet?

I wouldn't fault her for having been sunk in a sneak attack....
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RustyShackleford
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by RustyShackleford »

SueG5123 wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:33 pm I wouldn't fault her for having been sunk in a sneak attack....
I wouldn't either.

But it amuses me that we (in the US) always speak of Pearl Harbor as a "sneak attack", and though it were some dastardly dishonorable thing. It was actually one of the most brilliant military actions in history. We've done equally "sneaky" things on several occasions.

I did say "most brilliant", but of course that ignores the longer term effects: devastation of Japan; it was a really bad idea - as legend has that Admiral Yamamoto stated, shortly after the attack, something about "awakening a sleeping giant", and mentioning how we invented new weapons during our Civil War to slaughter even our own countrymen.

I've heard it stated that 7 Dec 1941 was probably the most significant day of the 20th century. It drew us out of isolationism, leading us down the path of becoming the world's dominant nation. And it was done relatively bloodlessly (for us), losing far fewer men than most of the other major combatants including Japan (more than an order of magnitude less than Germany and the USSR).
SueG5123
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by SueG5123 »

Not to flog this horse much longer, but... my take on the "sneak" of the "sneak attack" at Pearl Harbor does not refer to the Japanese striking an unprepared/unaware foe, but more to the fact that the U.S. and Japan were not at war with each other at the time of the attack. Precisely, the Japanese ambassador was still in open talks with U.S. Secretary of State at the moment of the attack. The "declaration of war" was delivered post-facto.

Hence, "sneak" is the operative term.

Strategically speaking, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was not singular. The Japanese had done something similar 40 years earlier during the Russo-Japanese War.
SurferLife
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by SurferLife »

22 yr vet. I don't see a problem so long as you're not trying to imply that you served by wearing the jacket, which you have said you are not doing. Leave the patches on, take off the pins. When people ask you about it, just tell them the situation. You could always just try to wear it a few times and see how it goes and then decide from there. I think it's a nice way to remember your father.

Something to keep in mind... The Army is looking to go back to the "pink and greens", which is the era this jacket is a part of. If you look at the last Army/Navy game, the Army leadership wore them.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... navy-game/
Chicago60
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by Chicago60 »

Spirit Rider wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:39 am As a disabled veteran, the son of a late veteran and the brother of two late veterans, I would be honored for you to wear your father's uniform. Sometimes, honor is about more than following the rules.

I am going to invoke the law of competing harms respect. Sometimes the respect shown to one's father outweighs an unintended disrespect.
I have no military experience and have nothing substantive to add to this discussion. But, Spirit Rider, this was beautifully stated, and I wanted you to know that I very much was moved by, and appreciated, it.
likegarden
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by likegarden »

My brother inherited from our father his WW2 German army sergeant jacket he wore for 5 years in Russian POW camps. My brother never wears it, it is family history.
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bottlecap
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by bottlecap »

RustyShackleford wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:41 pm
But it amuses me that we (in the US) always speak of Pearl Harbor as a "sneak attack", and though it were some dastardly dishonorable thing. It was actually one of the most brilliant military actions in history. We've done equally "sneaky" things on several occasions.
It was adjudged to be a war crime, albeit by the victors, not because of the surprise per se, but because of the circumstances under which it was carried out. So there's not reason to be amused by people that say this, really. And when you juxtapose it with the importance of honor to the Japanese military at the time, it's probably fair to say it was dishonorable by their own standards.

But I don't think that whether it was or not is important today, or anytime after 1945.

In my opinion, I'd probably agree that it ranks up there with "one of the more successfully-executed military actions" in history. There were a number of flaws with the plan, including it's timing, that take it out of the "brilliant" category. And there are a lot of actions throughout history to compare it to.

OP, I say wear the jacket if you want to. If someone mistakes you for an 80 year-old war veteran, just explain that it was your late father's and he did want it to be completely mothballed after he died.

JT

P.S. An interesting thing happened to me last week. I was with my 84 year old step father (who served in Korea, but didn't really see any action) in an elevator with a guy wearing a "Korea Veteran" ball cap. My step father asked when and where he served. I was taken about when he said, "In '55 and '56." In retrospect, he must have seen the quizzical look on my face. He quickly added, "DMZ." My step father later said, "That's why I never wear anything like that."

Wear the jacket if you want...
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Re: My dad's army jacket

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread has run its course and is locked (derailed - military history and political conjecture).
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