Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
letsgobobby
Posts: 10690
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 am

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by letsgobobby » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am

KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
If I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.

dbr
Posts: 24133
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by dbr » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:31 am

EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:35 pm
dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:01 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:52 pm
dbr wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:21 pm
In reality I disagree with our tipping culture in the US.
How do you disagree with a culture? I think you can not like it or wish it were otherwise. Finding an actionable process to change a culture is a tall order.
I'm not sure I understand your question. I disagree with the American culture of tipping. I think the price of the services should be included in the purchase price and expected as an add-on later on to the bill as a form of tip. Then maybe tip if the service was exceptional. That is what I disagree with. But, because I live in America I accept that culture and I think I tip relatively well.

Maybe I can try and answer the question you may be asking. If many in Washington State felt that the increase in a servers wages is enough so that they don't have to tip or they now require a smaller tip and act on that thinking then the culture would in effect change by those actions.
A culture is not a decision or a regulation or a policy made by an executive, a legislature, a business owner, a friend of yours or some person or entity with which you can disagree. If we are not happy with tipping culture it might be possible to pass a law or regulation to set things straight, but that is not disagreeing with a culture; it is falling back on law to try to control behavior that one wants to change. A person might try to persuade restaurant owners to set a policy of some kind about tips. This does exist some places. But tipping is not a policy as of now.
I am really not sure what you are disagreeing with.
Forget it. It's not important.

stoptothink
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by stoptothink » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:21 am

letsgobobby wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
If I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.
I am having a hard time keeping up with Kyle's rationale. As several of us have stated, many times, there are in fact restaurants that pay their servers more than minimum wage, my sister currently works for one (and her previous employer was another) and my wife did. I'm just chalking it up to him enjoying tipping because we are just talking in circles.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:30 pm

flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:24 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
I was asking about pre-tip income. How do you know that your servers aren't being paid more then the tipped minimum wage in your area? As far as I know, there is no law prohibiting restaurants from paying their servers a pre-tip wage of $15 an hour.
Because it is universally known that they aren’t. Do you think those in the industry would be unaware of such a restaurant? Do you think it would be a secret? For the restaurants I frequent I know with 100% certainty. For the odd restaurant in another part of town it’s generally very safe to assume I am correct there as well. If I’m wrong on occasions it doesn’t matter all that much because i don’t insist on being correct in my assumption 100% of the time. My method is close enough.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:33 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:21 am
letsgobobby wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
If I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.
I am having a hard time keeping up with Kyle's rationale. As several of us have stated, many times, there are in fact restaurants that pay their servers more than minimum wage, my sister currently works for one (and her previous employer was another) and my wife did. I'm just chalking it up to him enjoying tipping because we are just talking in circles.
But not around here and statistically, it is sound to conclude any given restaurant does not. If 1 of 100 servers mistakenly makes a small fortune due to a quirk in he labor market why would that invalidate my approach? Good for your sister but it doesn’t have anything to do with me or my practices. If I knew for a fact i was at such a restaurant i would adjust tipping practices accordingly but it is safe to assume it isn’t at 99% of restaurants.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:40 pm

letsgobobby wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
If I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.
No, I don’t care how much they make after tips, just that if I don’t tip they make effectively nothing for their labor serving me. It is a discrete interaction. If the last guy tips them 80% it doesn’t lessen my obligation. I know for certain how much they are making BEFORE tip.

letsgobobby
Posts: 10690
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 am

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by letsgobobby » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:22 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:40 pm
letsgobobby wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm
I bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
If I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.
No, I don’t care how much they make after tips, just that if I don’t tip they make effectively nothing for their labor serving me. It is a discrete interaction. If the last guy tips them 80% it doesn’t lessen my obligation. I know for certain how much they are making BEFORE tip.
no, that’s incorrect. this thread is discussing those places where there is no
lower tipped minimum wage, so they will be or are already making $11-$15 before tips. thus you know with a high degree of certainty what they make, and if I follow your reasoning, you would therefore be inclined to tip less. right?

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:25 pm

letsgobobby wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:22 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:40 pm
letsgobobby wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:05 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm


How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
They earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.
If I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.
No, I don’t care how much they make after tips, just that if I don’t tip they make effectively nothing for their labor serving me. It is a discrete interaction. If the last guy tips them 80% it doesn’t lessen my obligation. I know for certain how much they are making BEFORE tip.
no, that’s incorrect. this thread is discussing those places where there is no
lower tipped minimum wage, so they will be or are already making $11-$15 before tips. thus you know with a high degree of certainty what they make, and if I follow your reasoning, you would therefore be inclined to tip less. right?
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.

SrGrumpy
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by SrGrumpy » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:16 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:25 pm
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.
Are you their accountant?

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm

SrGrumpy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:16 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:25 pm
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.
Are you their accountant?
No. Does one need to be an accountant to know what a restaurant pays tipped servers on an hourly basis or are there other ways you can think of to figure that out?

User avatar
flamesabers
Posts: 1561
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:05 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by flamesabers » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:17 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm
SrGrumpy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:16 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:25 pm
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.
Are you their accountant?
No. Does one need to be an accountant to know what a restaurant pays tipped servers on an hourly basis or are there other ways you can think of to figure that out?
Unless you're their accountant or employer, I think it would be odd to claim you know their hourly wage. Payroll numbers for private-sector employees are typically treated as confidential information. Are you suggesting the hourly wage for servers doesn't go above the lowest legally allowed amount?

miamivice
Posts: 622
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:46 am

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by miamivice » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:26 pm

I have spent a lot of time in restaurants in many parts of the country. At this point, I am not sure how much to tip, nor what the purposes of tipping is for.

As you stated, servers are paid anywhere from $2/hr to $15/hr depending on your locale. Additionally, some restuarants charge a "2% service charge" that is added to the paychecks of non-tipped workers (back of the house staff). Then we have the variety of business models for restaurants running from no service (fast food/ice cream shops), medium service (they make a pizza to your specifications), and full service (sit down restuarants) and each often has a tip line.

I usually tip about 18% at full service sit down restaurants and 0% everywhere short of full service sit down restaurants. I do not tip more or less based on the minimum wage of the locality, but I feel there should be a downward trend in tipping in those localities. At the moment I don't adjust my tipping accordingly.

GCD
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by GCD » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:08 pm

Tipping: I once was a very bad waiter at a high end restaurant. Had a couple tell the manager on the way out "worst food and service in the Western suburbs." So I appreciate what a tough job serving tables is and how the waiters have to cut in the busboy, bartender, hostess, coat check girl, and everyone else in on their tips. Consequently, I over tip and 15% is what they get if I'm disgusted at their lack of work ethic, 20% is normal and I go 25-40% if the service is above average.

Living Wage: Stupidest thing ever. Not every job is meant to support a family, or even the employee. How good can you be at scooping ice cream? Other than the owner and owner's spouse, isn't it mostly high school kids working in ice cream shops? Does our society now think that high school kids at their first job should get what a lot of people get vo-tech certificates to earn? Your logic is flawed if you think a 16 year old HS kid scooping ice cream is worth $15 an hour. Some jobs are normally filled by people who don't support themselves, let alone a family, on the wage.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:49 pm

flamesabers wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:17 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm
SrGrumpy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:16 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:25 pm
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.
Are you their accountant?
No. Does one need to be an accountant to know what a restaurant pays tipped servers on an hourly basis or are there other ways you can think of to figure that out?
Unless you're their accountant or employer, I think it would be odd to claim you know their hourly wage. Payroll numbers for private-sector employees are typically treated as confidential information. Are you suggesting the hourly wage for servers doesn't go above the lowest legally allowed amount?
Servers talk freely about their hourly rates. It’s really quite trivial to know this information at your favorite restaurants.

KyleAAA
Posts: 6369
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:53 pm

GCD wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:08 pm
Your logic is flawed if you think a 16 year old HS kid scooping ice cream is worth $15 an hour. Some jobs are normally filled by people who don't support themselves, let alone a family, on the wage.
What exactly does logic have to do with whether or not a HS kid is worth $15 per hour? If that’s what the job pays, that’s what it pays. I also don’t see why it’s relevant that some jobs tend to be filled with people who don’t support a family.

And fwiw no, those jobs aren’t typically filled with HS kids. There are no HS kids at all at my local ice cream shops.

SrGrumpy
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by SrGrumpy » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:14 am

KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:49 pm
flamesabers wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:17 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm
SrGrumpy wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:16 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:25 pm
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.
Are you their accountant?
No. Does one need to be an accountant to know what a restaurant pays tipped servers on an hourly basis or are there other ways you can think of to figure that out?
Unless you're their accountant or employer, I think it would be odd to claim you know their hourly wage. Payroll numbers for private-sector employees are typically treated as confidential information. Are you suggesting the hourly wage for servers doesn't go above the lowest legally allowed amount?
Servers talk freely about their hourly rates. It’s really quite trivial to know this information at your favorite restaurants.
They talk freely because you ask them "Hey pal, how much do you make?" Do you ask them to verify with pay stubs since they would be inclined to understate? Or maybe you stake out the serving area and eavesdrop?

darrvao777
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:34 pm

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by darrvao777 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:34 am

It's a math problem for me.

I was taught that tipping usually starts at 15% as a kid.

20% is an easier number for me particularly if I've had a drink or two.

Thus, I tip 20% unless service is particularly bad or good. Keeps things simple and I don't have to double check to see if I'm in a living wage state or not.

GCD
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by GCD » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:24 am

KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:53 pm
GCD wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:08 pm
Your logic is flawed if you think a 16 year old HS kid scooping ice cream is worth $15 an hour. Some jobs are normally filled by people who don't support themselves, let alone a family, on the wage.
What exactly does logic have to do with whether or not a HS kid is worth $15 per hour? If that’s what the job pays, that’s what it pays. I also don’t see why it’s relevant that some jobs tend to be filled with people who don’t support a family.

And fwiw no, those jobs aren’t typically filled with HS kids. There are no HS kids at all at my local ice cream shops.
Edited: I completely disagree, but I'm not going to convince you and we are probably headed into that dreaded unactionable terrain. :D
Last edited by GCD on Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

HoosierJim
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:11 pm

Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.

Post by HoosierJim » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:10 am

Although not the norm, acquaintance in New York City makes about $25 K on W2 in a busy famous restaurant and some other cash side income. With a total take home of approx $100k. Unmarried partner does similar work & pay. Her apartment that should cost more than $3,000/month is approx $800/month and health care is nearly free. Not sure what other benefits they get but there probably are other $.

Not bad to have a $250K lifestyle in NYC with no education, student loans etc. Hard workers but there are a lot of other hard working couples in NYC making $100K on their W2 and no such benefits.

I'd say pay everybody a salary or hourly rate on their W2 straight up and let the chips fall where they may. Employees will leave bad jobs and employers will have to pay more in many cases but it's all above board. Classic example of this scam is UBER - one of the most corrupt companies - which now wants you to tip so they can pay their employees less.

Post Reply