Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
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Last edited by letsgobobby on Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
Forget it. It's not important.EnjoyIt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 pmI am really not sure what you are disagreeing with.dbr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:01 pmA culture is not a decision or a regulation or a policy made by an executive, a legislature, a business owner, a friend of yours or some person or entity with which you can disagree. If we are not happy with tipping culture it might be possible to pass a law or regulation to set things straight, but that is not disagreeing with a culture; it is falling back on law to try to control behavior that one wants to change. A person might try to persuade restaurant owners to set a policy of some kind about tips. This does exist some places. But tipping is not a policy as of now.EnjoyIt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:52 pmI'm not sure I understand your question. I disagree with the American culture of tipping. I think the price of the services should be included in the purchase price and expected as an add-on later on to the bill as a form of tip. Then maybe tip if the service was exceptional. That is what I disagree with. But, because I live in America I accept that culture and I think I tip relatively well.
Maybe I can try and answer the question you may be asking. If many in Washington State felt that the increase in a servers wages is enough so that they don't have to tip or they now require a smaller tip and act on that thinking then the culture would in effect change by those actions.
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
I am having a hard time keeping up with Kyle's rationale. As several of us have stated, many times, there are in fact restaurants that pay their servers more than minimum wage, my sister currently works for one (and her previous employer was another) and my wife did. I'm just chalking it up to him enjoying tipping because we are just talking in circles.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 pmIf I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:05 pmThey earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.flamesabers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:48 pmHow do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:41 pmI bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
Because it is universally known that they aren’t. Do you think those in the industry would be unaware of such a restaurant? Do you think it would be a secret? For the restaurants I frequent I know with 100% certainty. For the odd restaurant in another part of town it’s generally very safe to assume I am correct there as well. If I’m wrong on occasions it doesn’t matter all that much because i don’t insist on being correct in my assumption 100% of the time. My method is close enough.flamesabers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:24 pmI was asking about pre-tip income. How do you know that your servers aren't being paid more then the tipped minimum wage in your area? As far as I know, there is no law prohibiting restaurants from paying their servers a pre-tip wage of $15 an hour.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
But not around here and statistically, it is sound to conclude any given restaurant does not. If 1 of 100 servers mistakenly makes a small fortune due to a quirk in he labor market why would that invalidate my approach? Good for your sister but it doesn’t have anything to do with me or my practices. If I knew for a fact i was at such a restaurant i would adjust tipping practices accordingly but it is safe to assume it isn’t at 99% of restaurants.stoptothink wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:21 amI am having a hard time keeping up with Kyle's rationale. As several of us have stated, many times, there are in fact restaurants that pay their servers more than minimum wage, my sister currently works for one (and her previous employer was another) and my wife did. I'm just chalking it up to him enjoying tipping because we are just talking in circles.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 pmIf I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:05 pmThey earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.flamesabers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:48 pmHow do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:41 pmI bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
No, I don’t care how much they make after tips, just that if I don’t tip they make effectively nothing for their labor serving me. It is a discrete interaction. If the last guy tips them 80% it doesn’t lessen my obligation. I know for certain how much they are making BEFORE tip.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 pmIf I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:05 pmThey earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.flamesabers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:48 pmHow do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:41 pmI bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
no, that’s incorrect. this thread is discussing those places where there is noKyleAAA wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:40 pmNo, I don’t care how much they make after tips, just that if I don’t tip they make effectively nothing for their labor serving me. It is a discrete interaction. If the last guy tips them 80% it doesn’t lessen my obligation. I know for certain how much they are making BEFORE tip.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 pmIf I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:05 pmThey earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.flamesabers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:48 pmHow do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:41 pmI bag my groceries myself, don't have a child, and don't interact with the people who stock my shelves. But no, I don't believe they are underpaid in the way my server is, so I wouldn't tip them if I had the opportunity. If I knew my server made $35/hr 40 hours per week I wouldn't tip so generously, but I'm pretty certain they don't.
lower tipped minimum wage, so they will be or are already making $11-$15 before tips. thus you know with a high degree of certainty what they make, and if I follow your reasoning, you would therefore be inclined to tip less. right?
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
In those states, correct. I was referring to the fact that i also know for certain how much servers make before tip in MY area, which is my motivation for tipping 20%+ in normal circumstances.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:22 pmno, that’s incorrect. this thread is discussing those places where there is noKyleAAA wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:40 pmNo, I don’t care how much they make after tips, just that if I don’t tip they make effectively nothing for their labor serving me. It is a discrete interaction. If the last guy tips them 80% it doesn’t lessen my obligation. I know for certain how much they are making BEFORE tip.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 pmIf I’m not mistaken, your post suggests that if you KNEW that servers were making substantially more than the tipped minimum wage, you would tip less.KyleAAA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:05 pmThey earn the tipped minimum in my area, so I know with a high degree of certainty. Or do you mean "how do you know how much they make AFTER tips?" I don't, but that's irrelevant. They make that money BECAUSE we tip, which is why I do.flamesabers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:48 pm
How do you know how much your servers are paid? Do you ask them?
lower tipped minimum wage, so they will be or are already making $11-$15 before tips. thus you know with a high degree of certainty what they make, and if I follow your reasoning, you would therefore be inclined to tip less. right?
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
Unless you're their accountant or employer, I think it would be odd to claim you know their hourly wage. Payroll numbers for private-sector employees are typically treated as confidential information. Are you suggesting the hourly wage for servers doesn't go above the lowest legally allowed amount?
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
I have spent a lot of time in restaurants in many parts of the country. At this point, I am not sure how much to tip, nor what the purposes of tipping is for.
As you stated, servers are paid anywhere from $2/hr to $15/hr depending on your locale. Additionally, some restuarants charge a "2% service charge" that is added to the paychecks of non-tipped workers (back of the house staff). Then we have the variety of business models for restaurants running from no service (fast food/ice cream shops), medium service (they make a pizza to your specifications), and full service (sit down restuarants) and each often has a tip line.
I usually tip about 18% at full service sit down restaurants and 0% everywhere short of full service sit down restaurants. I do not tip more or less based on the minimum wage of the locality, but I feel there should be a downward trend in tipping in those localities. At the moment I don't adjust my tipping accordingly.
As you stated, servers are paid anywhere from $2/hr to $15/hr depending on your locale. Additionally, some restuarants charge a "2% service charge" that is added to the paychecks of non-tipped workers (back of the house staff). Then we have the variety of business models for restaurants running from no service (fast food/ice cream shops), medium service (they make a pizza to your specifications), and full service (sit down restuarants) and each often has a tip line.
I usually tip about 18% at full service sit down restaurants and 0% everywhere short of full service sit down restaurants. I do not tip more or less based on the minimum wage of the locality, but I feel there should be a downward trend in tipping in those localities. At the moment I don't adjust my tipping accordingly.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
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Last edited by GCD on Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
Servers talk freely about their hourly rates. It’s really quite trivial to know this information at your favorite restaurants.flamesabers wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:17 pmUnless you're their accountant or employer, I think it would be odd to claim you know their hourly wage. Payroll numbers for private-sector employees are typically treated as confidential information. Are you suggesting the hourly wage for servers doesn't go above the lowest legally allowed amount?
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
What exactly does logic have to do with whether or not a HS kid is worth $15 per hour? If that’s what the job pays, that’s what it pays. I also don’t see why it’s relevant that some jobs tend to be filled with people who don’t support a family.
And fwiw no, those jobs aren’t typically filled with HS kids. There are no HS kids at all at my local ice cream shops.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
They talk freely because you ask them "Hey pal, how much do you make?" Do you ask them to verify with pay stubs since they would be inclined to understate? Or maybe you stake out the serving area and eavesdrop?KyleAAA wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:49 pmServers talk freely about their hourly rates. It’s really quite trivial to know this information at your favorite restaurants.flamesabers wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:17 pmUnless you're their accountant or employer, I think it would be odd to claim you know their hourly wage. Payroll numbers for private-sector employees are typically treated as confidential information. Are you suggesting the hourly wage for servers doesn't go above the lowest legally allowed amount?
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
It's a math problem for me.
I was taught that tipping usually starts at 15% as a kid.
20% is an easier number for me particularly if I've had a drink or two.
Thus, I tip 20% unless service is particularly bad or good. Keeps things simple and I don't have to double check to see if I'm in a living wage state or not.
I was taught that tipping usually starts at 15% as a kid.
20% is an easier number for me particularly if I've had a drink or two.
Thus, I tip 20% unless service is particularly bad or good. Keeps things simple and I don't have to double check to see if I'm in a living wage state or not.
Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
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Last edited by GCD on Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tipping in living wage state. Redux.
Although not the norm, acquaintance in New York City makes about $25 K on W2 in a busy famous restaurant and some other cash side income. With a total take home of approx $100k. Unmarried partner does similar work & pay. Her apartment that should cost more than $3,000/month is approx $800/month and health care is nearly free. Not sure what other benefits they get but there probably are other $.
Not bad to have a $250K lifestyle in NYC with no education, student loans etc. Hard workers but there are a lot of other hard working couples in NYC making $100K on their W2 and no such benefits.
I'd say pay everybody a salary or hourly rate on their W2 straight up and let the chips fall where they may. Employees will leave bad jobs and employers will have to pay more in many cases but it's all above board. Classic example of this scam is UBER - one of the most corrupt companies - which now wants you to tip so they can pay their employees less.
Not bad to have a $250K lifestyle in NYC with no education, student loans etc. Hard workers but there are a lot of other hard working couples in NYC making $100K on their W2 and no such benefits.
I'd say pay everybody a salary or hourly rate on their W2 straight up and let the chips fall where they may. Employees will leave bad jobs and employers will have to pay more in many cases but it's all above board. Classic example of this scam is UBER - one of the most corrupt companies - which now wants you to tip so they can pay their employees less.