anyone else not liking the new cars?

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TN_Boy
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by TN_Boy » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:12 pm

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:28 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:56 am
It will be really interesting to see what the car market looks like in 20 years. The magic battery pack exchange (am I right that the Tesla can do something like this now? .. actually googling a bit it seems like they tried that but have backed off it) however, is not going to happen across the spectrum of vehicle types for a long time. The battery pack for a tesla versus a small sedan versus an SUV versus a big pickup ..... stations would have to stock a wide variety. And gas stations need to continue to supply gasoline and diesel fuel. I think EVs need a faster charge method to be practical across a wide variety of vehicle types.

I think EV market share will continue to grow, but really serious technical and logistical issues remain for wide-spread adoption. I can see lots of people with one ICE/hybrid and one EV. I don't worry about buying an ICE car now being obsolete when I am done with it.
I think battery swapping is silly, we will just engineer batteries that charge in 10 minutes when we really care to.

OR, you can check out this weird pourable battery tech.... https://www.tanktwo.com/tanktwo-technology/

"we will just engineer batteries that charge in 10 minutes when we really care to."

I read recently about (another...) potential breakthrough in battery charging time -- forget the article. But "when we care to" is not always possible. We would "care to" cure cancer but while we have periodic wins, we have most definitely not cured cancer despite vast sums of money thrown at the problem. I think a lot of money is being thrown at battery technology right now, and it may well yield the charge time we need to make EVs practical for most passenger car situations. But I wouldn't even take a Tesla right now -- my car has a 450+ mile range and it takes 3 minutes to "recharge." And I can recharge pretty much anywhere in the US. The Tesla's 260+ range and 20 minutes for a 1/2 charge at a (limited supply of) superstation isn't good enough for me. (And yes I routinely take trips where the Tesla restrictions would be a problem).

And sliding back to the OPs actual question, while I would hate to buy a car whose looks I didn't like, if it solved my needs and I liked driving it, the way the grille looked wouldn't matter to me. I'd buy it. I'd also say I personally haven't found the comfort level in cars decreasing -- generally the opposite. I find seats getting a little better over the years and the interiors nicer.

I will say some of the car management functions have gotten dreadfully painful as they remove dedicated buttons and dials, forcing you to take your eyes off the road to do more and more things via interacting with a computer screen.

Dottie57
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Dottie57 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:13 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:08 pm
I would fire the design engineer that did the fronts of the new Toyotas and Lexus.
As much as I am dedicated to Toyota/Lexus reliability and track record, the new models are uuuuuggggly. :shock:
I also considered the new Lexus LX SUV but not after seeing the front. :oops:

+1

Hideous front grill.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:14 pm

daveydoo wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:10 pm
Haven't bought a Toyota product in over two decades but I was happy to see that they are starting to up their game vis-a-vis handling, performance, and even styling. I like the new Lexus grills :happy . I'd even consider an RC-F -- would be nice to have a reliable performance sedan since Acura has fallen off the map.
Do you mean GS-F? The RC-F is an overweight two-door coupe with a vestigal back seat.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Dottie57 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:26 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:20 am
Rupert wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:34 am
I find that anytime automobiles are drastically redesigned I hate the new design for about 2 years. After about 2 years, I get used to it and don't hate it anymore. It starts to look normal to me at that point, especially as other car mfrs start to copy the design and integrate it into their own models (which they always seem to do).
I would agree, but my acceptance of the Lexus front end is not happening. It looks jarring to me, and I drive a Tesla Model X (which some say has a face only a mother could like).

It appears to appeal to a younger demographic, so perhaps there was a method to the madness.


I have heard it called the Darth Vader grill. It is ugly.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by daveydoo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:44 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:14 pm

Do you mean GS-F? The RC-F is an overweight two-door coupe with a vestigal back seat.
I did mean the RC-F but I know little about it apart from the engine. I'm sure you're right!
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:48 pm

daveydoo wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:44 pm
I did mean the RC-F but I know little about it apart from the engine. I'm sure you're right!
Well you said you wanted a reliable sports sedan, and the GS-F definitely fits that bill. Actually outhandles the BMW M5, though it isn't faster around the track due to the disparity in power. But an amazing daily-driven sport sedan if you're willing to cough up $85k for one.

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just frank
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by just frank » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:01 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:12 pm

"we will just engineer batteries that charge in 10 minutes when we really care to."

I read recently about (another...) potential breakthrough in battery charging time -- forget the article. But "when we care to" is not always possible. We would "care to" cure cancer but while we have periodic wins, we have most definitely not cured cancer despite vast sums of money thrown at the problem. I think a lot of money is being thrown at battery technology right now, and it may well yield the charge time we need to make EVs practical for most passenger car situations. But I wouldn't even take a Tesla right now -- my car has a 450+ mile range and it takes 3 minutes to "recharge." And I can recharge pretty much anywhere in the US. The Tesla's 260+ range and 20 minutes for a 1/2 charge at a (limited supply of) superstation isn't good enough for me. (And yes I routinely take trips where the Tesla restrictions would be a problem).
There is no physical reason why a Li-ion battery can't be charged in 10 minutes, called a C6 rate, versus the current C2 rate. But the practical result of engineering them to do that reduces energy density, durability and charging efficiency and increases total cost and causes battery heating. And the charging infrastructure to put out the required power is proportionally more expensive (and doesn't exist in the marketplace today). A bit of a chicken and egg situation.

But there is a big difference between 'can't physically charge in 10 minutes' and 'charging in 10 minutes moves us away from a competitive price/performance spec in the current market'. As long as EVs are price/kWh constrained, and users care more about range than charge time, then charge time will be marginal (30 minutes). IF in the future after some learning curve EV prices have fallen to a low level, then some niche makers will offer a faster charging option to compete, with an upcharge on the hardware. And it might ripple through the industry.

OT: read about immuno-therapy. It's still early days and costs half a mil, but it looks like it CAN cure many cancer types. We just need to build out and refine the technique (which will cost many billions), and bring the costs down through good engineering and make it 'standard of care'. AIDs drugs used to cost an arm and a leg...now they are generic and <$1 day with some markup.

2pedals
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by 2pedals » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:15 pm

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.
I predict the trade-in value of my 1994 Plymouth will drop from $354 to $339 in a few years.
Last edited by 2pedals on Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whodidntante
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by whodidntante » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:28 pm

I think all current Toyotas are ugly.

TN_Boy
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by TN_Boy » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:35 pm

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:01 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:12 pm

"we will just engineer batteries that charge in 10 minutes when we really care to."

I read recently about (another...) potential breakthrough in battery charging time -- forget the article. But "when we care to" is not always possible. We would "care to" cure cancer but while we have periodic wins, we have most definitely not cured cancer despite vast sums of money thrown at the problem. I think a lot of money is being thrown at battery technology right now, and it may well yield the charge time we need to make EVs practical for most passenger car situations. But I wouldn't even take a Tesla right now -- my car has a 450+ mile range and it takes 3 minutes to "recharge." And I can recharge pretty much anywhere in the US. The Tesla's 260+ range and 20 minutes for a 1/2 charge at a (limited supply of) superstation isn't good enough for me. (And yes I routinely take trips where the Tesla restrictions would be a problem).
There is no physical reason why a Li-ion battery can't be charged in 10 minutes, called a C6 rate, versus the current C2 rate. But the practical result of engineering them to do that reduces energy density, durability and charging efficiency and increases total cost and causes battery heating. And the charging infrastructure to put out the required power is proportionally more expensive (and doesn't exist in the marketplace today). A bit of a chicken and egg situation.

But there is a big difference between 'can't physically charge in 10 minutes' and 'charging in 10 minutes moves us away from a competitive price/performance spec in the current market'. As long as EVs are price/kWh constrained, and users care more about range than charge time, then charge time will be marginal (30 minutes). IF in the future after some learning curve EV prices have fallen to a low level, then some niche makers will offer a faster charging option to compete, with an upcharge on the hardware. And it might ripple through the industry.

OT: read about immuno-therapy. It's still early days and costs half a mil, but it looks like it CAN cure many cancer types. We just need to build out and refine the technique (which will cost many billions), and bring the costs down through good engineering and make it 'standard of care'. AIDs drugs used to cost an arm and a leg...now they are generic and <$1 day with some markup.
To be clear, it's not that I don't believe EVs will eventually replace ICE cars (I think it very possible they will) I think there are a lot of serious engineering and infrastructure problems that have to be solved in an affordable manner and that it will take more time than a lot of what I'll call the "EV enthusiasts" believe.

I didn't know the AIDs drugs were now so cheap.

As for the immuno-therapy -- I've been reading about that for years. I've also read (10 and 20 years ago) about other breakthroughs that were going to cure cancer. Hasn't happened yet, though I agree we are making progress. The day they start curing lung and pancreatic cancer is the day I'll start believing we are on the road to a broad-based cure. (In fact, the very first Immunotherapy treatment for cancer was in ..... 1891. Look up William Coley. Okay, so the techniques now are quite different. But even before I googled that, I knew I'd been reading about immuno-therapy for a long time. The idea itself is far from new).

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by rxtra8 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:42 pm

sixty40 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:09 pm
rxtra8 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:59 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:01 am
Japanese cars have always been "what were they thinking?" design wise with occasional strokes of brilliance (S2000, all NSX, Supra, the Z family). Acura used to have beautiful cars across the lineup until they decided to add the stupid beak to the grill. That bad idea has now migrated to the Honda lineup.

There are still good looking cars, but you have to decide if reliability or appearance is more important. In my opinion, Ford has done great work, Chrysler is ahead of the rest and BMW has learned from their Bangle years what NOT to do. On the Japanese side, my humble opinion is that Mazda is the least bad. I think the first generation Mazda 6 was a great looking car while the new one was designed by a 6 year old. VW, like BMW has a good, conservative, traditional look. I'm not a fan of the Audi big gaping hole in the front end and if they could fix that would have cars that beat BMW for appearance. Mercedes has lost its way, making more swoopy, generic looking cars, hit with the ugly stick following a solid decade of great looking, prestige cars.
+1
Almost totally agree, but still do not like Chrysler...the Lexus and Audi are particularly egregious in styling. If I were to buy a new car, it would probably be a VW GTI; performance and good looks. If SUV, a Mazda CX5 or Porsche Macan (I know big difference in $ but those 2 are very nimble).

Glad I am not looking for a new car, but would not mind a 996 TT if my wife makes me sell my '65 Corvette!!!
What about a 993 twin turbo, that may set someone back a pretty penny at current asking prices. Last (and best) of the air cooled!
993TTs are not cheap. Thus the reason for choosing 996TT...even though water cooled it has the bullet proof Mezger Le Mans proven engine (no IMS issues) and is probably the best super car deal out there....original $150K now less tham $50K with relatively low miles....but it's a dream as the CFO, my better half probably will not approve and I might be reluctant to write the check!
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daveydoo
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by daveydoo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:41 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:48 pm

Well you said you wanted a reliable sports sedan, and the GS-F definitely fits that bill. Actually outhandles the BMW M5, though it isn't faster around the track due to the disparity in power. But an amazing daily-driven sport sedan if you're willing to cough up $85k for one.
But you would take an S6 over a GS-F, right? Nicest car I've ever sat in but I didn't take it out since I was ostensibly there to drive a CLS63 S-AMG (which was just too much car). The 2014 S6's are like $45K -- as Car Gurus reminds me every day. Not off-topic, I hope, since it's gorgeous inside and out and should be great to drive. But, the reliability thing...
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by gd » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:17 am

The last car I've owned (and still do) that I liked the looks of was a utilitarian 1999 VW Polo station wagon, although I eventually grew to accept the Escort candy-bar-in-hot-sun look when I discovered that it gave me maybe 10% better gas mileage than a more modern-styled Focus with the same drivetrain.

Shorter answer- yes, that's one reason I don't buy expensive cars regularly. I'd be paying for style I never seem to like.

freckles01
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by freckles01 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:56 pm

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:17 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:08 am
Angelus359 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 am
I just bought a new Prius and I love the look
To each their own. IMO it is battling the i3 as the single ugliest vehicle currently manufactured...but I'd gladly drive either.
I couldn't agree more about both cars (all the BMWs look like they have pig snouts to me)...and I drive an 'ugly' car...the LEAF.
besides a bmw isetta, the i3 is the only modern bmw i'd consider. i may of drooled a bit when i first saw one IRL... i'm sure its owner was a bit frightened.

but i have a confession: i've loved "ugly"/odd cars all my life- vintage citroen 2cv, vintage vw squareback, vw thing, vintage saab 96, bmv isetta, any/all micro cars etc makes my heart go a'flutter.

chrisam314
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by chrisam314 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:23 pm

multiham wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:43 pm
Would love to see the opinions of the Toyota/Lexus grille based on age group and car enthusiast. My take is that the younger crowd will like the grille. I really like the look of the new Camry as I think they mad is sportier looking upfront.

I'll jump in with 2 more opinions on some comments in this thread

1. I have not had any luck with my last 2 Toyota's. First one was a 2004 Sienna which absolutely died in 2010. It was so catastrophic, that the mechanics at the dealership told my wife to not put another $ against this car. Started having coolant issues around 80,000 miles and finally had to donate the car at 95,000 miles. EVERY service was performed on time and at a Toyota dealership so this was not a case of neglecting the car
2. Just had to get rid of a 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Can had a few small issues over time, but nothing serious. About 2 months ago, my wife was driving it to the store and every warning light came on at once. She pulled over and shut the car off. Car would not start again. Had it towed to dealership who diagnosed problem (via computer and they let me see it) as a bad electrical inverter. To get at the part, you basically have to take out all the back seats. Cost to replace at Toyota was over $7,000. Checked with other independents in area and the best cost was $5,500.

We are still looking to replace the car and I'm thinking Honda.
Is that repair on the highlander specific to the hybrid version?

takeshi
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by takeshi » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:15 am

lomarica01 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 pm
please don't mention this is a first world problem, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if anyone has a recommendation for a similar type vehicle ie a nice 4 door sedan that is not a step down from my old es350.
Not just a first world problem but a getting older problem as well. :mrgreen:

There really isn't enough info in your post for us to make meaningful recommendations and even with more information we can't assess things such as your aesthetics preferences and what you can and cannot get in and out of comfortably, what specifically fits your arms best, etc. Those are things that you're going to sort out based on first hand experience.

What are your biggest priorities? What are the specific features of your ES350 that you don't want to lose?
Last edited by takeshi on Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

multiham
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by multiham » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:17 am

chrisam314 wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:23 pm
multiham wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:43 pm
Would love to see the opinions of the Toyota/Lexus grille based on age group and car enthusiast. My take is that the younger crowd will like the grille. I really like the look of the new Camry as I think they mad is sportier looking upfront.

I'll jump in with 2 more opinions on some comments in this thread

1. I have not had any luck with my last 2 Toyota's. First one was a 2004 Sienna which absolutely died in 2010. It was so catastrophic, that the mechanics at the dealership told my wife to not put another $ against this car. Started having coolant issues around 80,000 miles and finally had to donate the car at 95,000 miles. EVERY service was performed on time and at a Toyota dealership so this was not a case of neglecting the car
2. Just had to get rid of a 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Can had a few small issues over time, but nothing serious. About 2 months ago, my wife was driving it to the store and every warning light came on at once. She pulled over and shut the car off. Car would not start again. Had it towed to dealership who diagnosed problem (via computer and they let me see it) as a bad electrical inverter. To get at the part, you basically have to take out all the back seats. Cost to replace at Toyota was over $7,000. Checked with other independents in area and the best cost was $5,500.

We are still looking to replace the car and I'm thinking Honda.
Is that repair on the highlander specific to the hybrid version?
Yes, it is a Hybrid only issue. Toyota has issued a recall for this part, but even though my car was in one of the model years they recalled, my VIN was not part of the recall. I tried to get them to cover it (as did the dealer) with absolutely no luck.

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djpeteski
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by djpeteski » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:29 am

I was traveling a lot for work, and got to rent a bunch of different cars. Included where the Mustang, and Camaro. A coworker asked about these and thought they were great. I pointed out major design flaws with them, like basically driving around in a big blind spot and one was exceedingly uncomfortable.

He told me I was too picky.

I thought, if I am spending over $25K, I get to be picky.

The point is, with the amount of money you are looking to spend, you have a right to demand an acceptable product.

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TeamArgo
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by TeamArgo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:35 am

I went through a period in my mid 40's (about 1996) where I couldn't stand the looks of new cars. I finally bought a used gray Volvo box, which I called my "Borg Cube", and just toughed it out for 10 years. In 2007 I fell in love with the Prius, and I haven't looked back. I wonder if anyone else who doesn't like new cars is between their mid-40's and mid-50's.:?: Maybe this is related to the proverbial "mid-life crisis", where tradition is that men go out and buy a sports car. :?: :!:
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by munemaker » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:39 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:08 pm
I would fire the design engineer that did the fronts of the new Toyotas and Lexus.
Toyota has long been accused of manufacturing appliance cars with bland styling. They are turning it up a notch.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Swansea » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:29 am

I dislike the automatic engine shut off when you come to a stop that some new vehicles have. It saves very little fuel and puts extra wear on the starter and battery. On some cars you can shut it off, others only the dealer may have that option.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:36 am

TeamArgo wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:35 am
I went through a period in my mid 40's (about 1996) where I couldn't stand the looks of new cars. I finally bought a used gray Volvo box, which I called my "Borg Cube", and just toughed it out for 10 years. In 2007 I fell in love with the Prius, and I haven't looked back. I wonder if anyone else who doesn't like new cars is between their mid-40's and mid-50's.:?: Maybe this is related to the proverbial "mid-life crisis", where tradition is that men go out and buy a sports car. :?: :!:
I like quirky, quiet and comfortable now more than sporty. I owned a 1973 VW 412 (wagon) for 6 years. That car is often voted one of the worst cars ever made. It was well ahead of its time on some fronts. Fuel injected. Disc brakes. Quite quirky and didn't get much love (then or now).

I also kind of like "invisible" cars. I had a silver 2004 Ford Taurus that was completely invisible. Nobody gave it a second glance ever. Now my silver 2001 Lexus LS 430 is pretty much the same. Maybe the color or style, but it is completely unnoticed, which is just fine with me. :wink:
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:08 am

Swansea wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:29 am
I dislike the automatic engine shut off when you come to a stop that some new vehicles have. It saves very little fuel and puts extra wear on the starter and battery. On some cars you can shut it off, others only the dealer may have that option.
I dislike this feature as well, but the starter is beefed up to accommodate the extra load, so it should be less failure-prone rather than more. I believe some manufacturers also stop the engine just past TDC with a fuel/air mixture in the cylinder, so firing the sparkplug assists with the re-starting process.

Unfortunately, the manufacturers get more of an mpg "credit" for putting in systems that are not defeatable. So for example, that's the route that GM has taken.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by randomguy » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:37 am

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:28 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:56 am
It will be really interesting to see what the car market looks like in 20 years. The magic battery pack exchange (am I right that the Tesla can do something like this now? .. actually googling a bit it seems like they tried that but have backed off it) however, is not going to happen across the spectrum of vehicle types for a long time. The battery pack for a tesla versus a small sedan versus an SUV versus a big pickup ..... stations would have to stock a wide variety. And gas stations need to continue to supply gasoline and diesel fuel. I think EVs need a faster charge method to be practical across a wide variety of vehicle types.

I think EV market share will continue to grow, but really serious technical and logistical issues remain for wide-spread adoption. I can see lots of people with one ICE/hybrid and one EV. I don't worry about buying an ICE car now being obsolete when I am done with it.
I think battery swapping is silly, we will just engineer batteries that charge in 10 minutes when we really care to.

OR, you can check out this weird pourable battery tech.... https://www.tanktwo.com/tanktwo-technology/
Battery swapping is a really niche solution for the person who wants to be driving for 5+ hours straight. It isn't remotely clear that there is enough general demand for it. And it runs the risk of being made obsolete if charging times continue to drop. But predicting tech trends is a fools game.

EVs are definitely going to be a growing market but the odds are it will not be a sudden shift in 10 years. More like a gradual one as EVs fill more niches and the battery price drops. At some point the default choice will switch to EV except for niche markets (say F350s) but it isn't going to happen in a short of enough time frame (call it 5 years) to affect resale values of cars sold today.

As far as looks, designers can't win. You do something bold and half the world hates it. Do something that no one hates and everyone will talk about your bland mobile. In a lot of ways you are better of doing something quirky that excites 20% of the population and offends 80% than something bland that nobody cares about. You narrow the market but you make those people far more likely to buy your car. And in time you get used to most changes in looks. Nobody blinks when they see an Audi these days. In 2005 or so when that huge grill game out it was an eye catcher.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by hushpuppy » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:22 pm

delete
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by likegarden » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:32 pm

My wife drives a 2013 Toyota Camry, nice car without problems. So I thought to buy a Camry also for myself, and paint that large black screen in front with the same paint as the car (3 coats), but then found a better looking car.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by dave_k » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:42 pm

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

... But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.
...
A new ICE car will depreciate so much over the time-frame that EVs "take over" that the additional price drop from being less desirable won't matter so much. If you only own the car for a few years it's unlikely that EVs will have increased so much in popularity that it significantly reduces the resale of ICE cars. If you own it for say 15 years, does it really matter, since it wouldn't have been worth much anyway? The point is that EVs won't destroy the value of ICE cars faster than time and use will. People are only left "holding the bag" in a financial sense in situations where value drops suddenly and unexpectedly. This doesn't seem like a risk that should outweigh other considerations.

ten2go
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by ten2go » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:54 pm

I feel the same way about new shoes. I typically wear comfortable tennis shoes to work (more specifically running shoes). It seems like all the latest designs are too flashy. I'm not a fan of multi-colored fluorescent zigzags.

Wish I could buy another pair of the same shoes I bought 5 or 10 years ago.

Maybe I'm getting old?!?

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F150HD
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by F150HD » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:55 pm

this thread requires pictures

kosomoto
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by kosomoto » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:54 pm

I am honestly baffled by the decision making process people are using to decide their next car.

I keep seeing cars being compared that aren't even in the same class. I am seeing people considering SUV from brand x against sedan from brand y, ignoring the SUVs of the same size from brands a to g.

It would be much easier to provide assistance to those seeking a new vehicle if they would say what class of vehicle they are looking for.

Calico
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Calico » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:19 am

I don't think the cars or ugly (or good looking). I am pretty neutral about it. But I do think the new front ends of many cars kind of look like the front ends of locomotive cattle catchers.

Quickfoot
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Quickfoot » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:29 am

I'm actually the opposite, I think the old Lexus cars were ungodly ugly and boring, the ONLY good thing they had going for them was reliability. On the other hand the new ES and IS looks actually have me considering Lexus. For the first time ever I walked by a Lexus, stopped and walked by it again because it was actually sporty and attractive looking.

michaeljc70
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:33 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:08 am
Angelus359 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 am
I just bought a new Prius and I love the look
To each their own. IMO it is battling the i3 as the single ugliest vehicle currently manufactured...but I'd gladly drive either.
+1. Uglier than the Aztec.

ssquared87
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by ssquared87 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:56 am

kjvmartin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:27 am

I just don't see the vast majority of apartment/condo/renter dwellers with the ability to convert to electric. Landlords and leasing companies have no interest in installing/maintaining an electric power supply in their parking lots and garages. This will be a considerable hurdle to the adoption of mass electric sales, IMO. Then, it would be too restrictive for someone who moves around a bit. I would have to add 1 more item to my list of requirements for a potential rental, and it could make it difficult or impossible to find somewhere to live in certain areas. Then, I would find myself "holding the bag" on a useless electric car I can't charge.
This is my situation exactly. Live in an apartment and no access to electric charging. Was looking at the BMW i3 and went with a 5 series instead

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sunny_socal
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Thought things couldn't possibly get worse?

Post by sunny_socal » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:41 am

Just when you though Toyota and Lexus had created the ugliest cars on the planet - they bring out the Toyota Mirai! :oops:
Saw one yesterday with my own eyes, I need some bleach. :?
(Oh, and it's only $57k! That's just below $60k, anything over that threshold would be considered extravagant here nn BH! :wink: )

The spawn of Prius & Aztek:
Image

Linky:
https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/fcv.html

Countermoon
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Countermoon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:47 am

Quickfoot wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:29 am
I'm actually the opposite, I think the old Lexus cars were ungodly ugly and boring, the ONLY good thing they had going for them was reliability. On the other hand the new ES and IS looks actually have me considering Lexus. For the first time ever I walked by a Lexus, stopped and walked by it again because it was actually sporty and attractive looking.
I agree. The redesigned ES looks sleek and attractive, not a big blob like in prior generations.

I think one of the more interesting automobile trends is the increase in luxury amenities offered in non-luxury cars. Look at the top trims of the Accord or the Sonata: full safety technology suite, big touchscreen infotainment system, Android Auto/Apple Car Play, heated/cooled seats, leather, minimal road and wind noise, etc. As someone who reviewed the new Accord said: "Why even buy an Acura if you can buy this?"

rgs92
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by rgs92 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 pm

Thanks again for all that info on BMW Lazydavid. It was off my radar. Good luck to you.
Ha ha, I guess I'm beyond the age of worrying about car looks, but obsessed with car comfort.

JimmyD
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by JimmyD » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:24 pm

tcassette wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:11 am
lomarica01 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 pm
I was looking to replace my 07 lexus es350 with 195,000 miles on it and have decided to keep it another year or two. In my opinion the new es350 lexus grill is hideous and they have what is basically a mouse to use the navigation. The nav also has voice commands but with the front end, the mouse and an ugly silver analog clock on the dash it was not a car I wanted. The audi a4 was very nice but I had a hard time getting in and out of it. same with the audi a6 and that car will be totally new next year. The mazda 6 was a great value (and the only car I test drove) but my left arm kept slipping off the arm rest and the heads up display is thru a piece of 2"x4" piece of plastic that sticks up in front of the dash and does not fold down and it looks and is totally ridiculous. I know there is no perfect car but man I was looking forward to something new.

please don't mention this is a first world problem, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if anyone has a recommendation for a similar type vehicle ie a nice 4 door sedan that is not a step down from my old es350.

thanks
Here's a left-field suggestion: 2018 Subaru Legacy Limited sedan. With a few options, including the 6-cylinder engine, this is luxury-lite at a very reasonable price, especially considering the standard AWD.
+1. I love my 2015 Acura TLX, but if I were in need of something else, the Legacy Limited would be it.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:57 pm

rgs92 wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 pm
Thanks again for all that info on BMW Lazydavid. It was off my radar. Good luck to you.
Ha ha, I guess I'm beyond the age of worrying about car looks, but obsessed with car comfort.
No problem, I hope it turns out to be helpful. I've got a really bad back (to the tune of $2500 in chiropractor bills annually for the past 25 years) and can only sit on firm seats without pain after 20-30 minutes. I was genuinely surprised to find a car the size of a civic that had firm seats and so much leg room.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:18 pm

sixty40 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:09 pm
rxtra8 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:59 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:01 am
Japanese cars have always been "what were they thinking?" design wise with occasional strokes of brilliance (S2000, all NSX, Supra, the Z family). Acura used to have beautiful cars across the lineup until they decided to add the stupid beak to the grill. That bad idea has now migrated to the Honda lineup.

There are still good looking cars, but you have to decide if reliability or appearance is more important. In my opinion, Ford has done great work, Chrysler is ahead of the rest and BMW has learned from their Bangle years what NOT to do. On the Japanese side, my humble opinion is that Mazda is the least bad. I think the first generation Mazda 6 was a great looking car while the new one was designed by a 6 year old. VW, like BMW has a good, conservative, traditional look. I'm not a fan of the Audi big gaping hole in the front end and if they could fix that would have cars that beat BMW for appearance. Mercedes has lost its way, making more swoopy, generic looking cars, hit with the ugly stick following a solid decade of great looking, prestige cars.
+1
Almost totally agree, but still do not like Chrysler...the Lexus and Audi are particularly egregious in styling. If I were to buy a new car, it would probably be a VW GTI; performance and good looks. If SUV, a Mazda CX5 or Porsche Macan (I know big difference in $ but those 2 are very nimble).

Glad I am not looking for a new car, but would not mind a 996 TT if my wife makes me sell my '65 Corvette!!!
What about a 993 twin turbo, that may set someone back a pretty penny at current asking prices. Last (and best) of the air cooled!
993 has become priced into the sky. I agree the 996 TT which also has AWD and does NOT have the IMS is probably THE sweet spot of value, fun and performance.

I also agree with the GTi being a gem. Especially now with the factory throwing money at us to buy them. The sport package ups the power and throws in the LSD. It's on my list of fun cars I'd like to buy after I'm not paying for tuitions for the kids. I had a Lotus Elise that became one semester for one kid so I know fun cars.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by criticalmass » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:27 pm

lazydavid wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:08 am
I dislike this feature as well, but the starter is beefed up to accommodate the extra load, so it should be less failure-prone rather than more. I believe some manufacturers also stop the engine just past TDC with a fuel/air mixture in the cylinder, so firing the sparkplug assists with the re-starting process.
That's an interesting approach, but how many cylinders can be just past TDC simultaneously? And if one is stopped for a while with fuel in the cylinder, what keeps it from washing the oil away from the rings and beyond?

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:09 pm

criticalmass wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:27 pm
That's an interesting approach, but how many cylinders can be just past TDC simultaneously?
Two, in most cases. As many as would be simultaneously starting a powerstroke, in all cases.
criticalmass wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:27 pm
And if one is stopped for a while with fuel in the cylinder, what keeps it from washing the oil away from the rings and beyond?
They're programmed to re-start after a certain delay. I know the rental Impala I had a little over a week ago wouldn't stay off for more than a minute at a time. Also remember the fuel is atomized and the cylinder is hot, so it's not like there's just a pool of gasoline waiting to weep past the rings.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Gnirk » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:52 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:08 pm
I would fire the design engineer that did the fronts of the new Toyotas and Lexus.
As much as I am dedicated to Toyota/Lexus reliability and track record, the new models are uuuuuggggly. :shock:
I also considered the new Lexus LX SUV but not after seeing the front. :oops:
My thoughts, too.

Maverick3320
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Maverick3320 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:12 pm

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:14 am
sunny_socal wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 am
Wake me up when there are no more government subsidies for wind/solar generation and EVs have no rebates. Then we will know there has truly been a paradigm shift. I don't mind cutting waste and adopting cleaner ways to live but the very existence of subsidies show that 'clean energy' cannot stand by itself. It is not financially viable and that is a fact. I have solar panels on my house and I love them, BTW - here in southern California solar is wonderful.
You are awfully certain regarding what is basically a moving target. The price of solar PV, wind turbines and EV batteries have all been falling exponentially for years now, according to the well understood phenomenon of the 'learning curve'. The current US subsidies for all three of these technologies have sunsets and are set to expire in a couple years, and yet many billions of dollars of private money are pouring in. Are all those investors unaware of existing subsidies sunsetting in a year or two? Do they expect the current administration to re-up all those subsidies in 2018-19? Or have they done the value projection on the prices of this technology and decided that rather than merely being competitive on price with existing tech, it will significantly undercut and disrupt existing tech?

You also neglect to mention that direct govt subsidies to fossil energy companies exceed those to renewable energy, and always have. Without those subsidies we would have neither coal plants nor be fracking for oil at $50/bbl....both industries are propped up by direct subsidy, which do NOT have planned sunsets, BTW.
Both the "dirty" and "clean" energy industries receive subsidies. Take away all the subsidies and the dirty energy industry would still exist - its more questionable whether the domestic clean energy industry would.

Of course if the US government stopped subsidizing dirty energy, energy prices would rise, harming the poorest in the US the most. And 10 million Americans are employed by the industry. People that promote green energy tend to neglect to mention these things.

rgs92
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by rgs92 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:18 pm

The loaner Mercedes cars I used to get with that engine-disabling "feature" at red lights was so disconcerting to me and my wife that I'd disable it all the time. It just triggered some anxiety in me.

Sorry about your back problems lazydavid. Best of luck.

Ha ha, I used to have an Oldsmobile 98 touring sedan back in the late 90s, and boy could I stretch out in that one (split bench seats!). It was great. The seats were not super supportive but that didn't bother me, but I could see how others would have issues. But I really miss the room in it.

But after 50,000 miles, it wouldn't start sometimes unpredictably and 2 separate dealers did all sorts of things but couldn't cure it so I sold it.
GM just couldn't get their act together.

It drove kind of floaty, but I didn't care because of the great comfort. And the front climate control vents were way down low so the A/C left my head hot unless I pointed them right at my face and then it was drafty. And the temp. control went right from 60 to 65 degrees and 60 would send a roar of airflow and 65 would shut it down, so I had to constantly change the temp back and forth.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:38 pm

lomarica01 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 pm
I was looking to replace my 07 lexus es350 with 195,000 miles on it and have decided to keep it another year or two. In my opinion the new es350 lexus grill is hideous and they have what is basically a mouse to use the navigation. The nav also has voice commands but with the front end, the mouse and an ugly silver analog clock on the dash it was not a car I wanted. The audi a4 was very nice but I had a hard time getting in and out of it. same with the audi a6 and that car will be totally new next year. The mazda 6 was a great value (and the only car I test drove) but my left arm kept slipping off the arm rest and the heads up display is thru a piece of 2"x4" piece of plastic that sticks up in front of the dash and does not fold down and it looks and is totally ridiculous. I know there is no perfect car but man I was looking forward to something new.

please don't mention this is a first world problem, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if anyone has a recommendation for a similar type vehicle ie a nice 4 door sedan that is not a step down from my old es350.

thanks
I have a Mazda3 with the HUD (it does fold down) and hated it at first. Now I absolutely love it because I can see speed and nav info without having to avert my eyes from the road even slightly. It really is miles better than a HUD on the windshield. The entire interior of the new Mazdas are extraordinarily well-designed with the driver in mind. Some of the subtle touches you won't even notice for months but once you do, any other car will seem backwards. Once you get used to it, it really blows the pants off of any BMW or Mercedes.

I've never really enjoyed Lexus interiors other than the seats. Same with Acura: nice seats, poor everything else (I hear good things about the new Civic so maybe Acura has improved as well). I also like the new es350 grill so maybe we just have different taste.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by friar1610 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:44 pm

Take a look at the 2018 Buick LaCrosse, a very nice looking car in my opinion. I have a 2011 Regal, a smaller car than the LaCrosse, and have been quite pleased with it. Of course, there is the "old fart's car" image of Buicks that probably lingers although GM has been trying hard to appeal to a younger audience for the last 5 years or so. (As an old fart I'm not particularly concerned with that issue.) If I were in the market for a new sedan, I would definitely give the LaCrosse a look.
Friar1610

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by new2bogle » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:04 pm

keystone wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:38 am
Funny, we bought a 2017 Highlander and I like the new grill. Plus I just looked up the new ES 350 and think it looks really nice. I guess love is blind!
Yup! I actually like the Lexus grill. I'm in the market for a used Lexus, most likely going to buy next summer, an IS, maybe an ES or ES-hybrid.

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victorb
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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by victorb » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:07 pm

I don't like the new front ends either on the Toyota & Lexus lines. A lot of people are recommending the Genesis G80 and that is one fine automobile. I was going to go up from a Camry and I rented a Hyundai Santa Fe Sport for business. I really liked sitting up higher and the Ultimate version had everything I wanted, so I went that route and have been very very happy.

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Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by new2bogle » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:18 pm

Maverick3320 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:12 pm
just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:14 am
sunny_socal wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 am
Wake me up when there are no more government subsidies for wind/solar generation and EVs have no rebates. Then we will know there has truly been a paradigm shift. I don't mind cutting waste and adopting cleaner ways to live but the very existence of subsidies show that 'clean energy' cannot stand by itself. It is not financially viable and that is a fact. I have solar panels on my house and I love them, BTW - here in southern California solar is wonderful.
You are awfully certain regarding what is basically a moving target. The price of solar PV, wind turbines and EV batteries have all been falling exponentially for years now, according to the well understood phenomenon of the 'learning curve'. The current US subsidies for all three of these technologies have sunsets and are set to expire in a couple years, and yet many billions of dollars of private money are pouring in. Are all those investors unaware of existing subsidies sunsetting in a year or two? Do they expect the current administration to re-up all those subsidies in 2018-19? Or have they done the value projection on the prices of this technology and decided that rather than merely being competitive on price with existing tech, it will significantly undercut and disrupt existing tech?

You also neglect to mention that direct govt subsidies to fossil energy companies exceed those to renewable energy, and always have. Without those subsidies we would have neither coal plants nor be fracking for oil at $50/bbl....both industries are propped up by direct subsidy, which do NOT have planned sunsets, BTW.
Both the "dirty" and "clean" energy industries receive subsidies. Take away all the subsidies and the dirty energy industry would still exist - its more questionable whether the domestic clean energy industry would.

Of course if the US government stopped subsidizing dirty energy, energy prices would rise, harming the poorest in the US the most. And 10 million Americans are employed by the industry. People that promote green energy tend to neglect to mention these things.
Baloney! Are you getting your employment statistics from a TV AD? Yeah, I saw that too. The 10 million number is what the oil and gas industry supports, not employs. There is a difference. Before you go crying to the AEI please note that the solar industry alone employs more than people than all types of fossil fuel industries combined (for power generation).

Do you really want to talk about what harms the poorest in the US the most? really?

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