anyone else not liking the new cars?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
lomarica01
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:57 am

anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lomarica01 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 pm

I was looking to replace my 07 lexus es350 with 195,000 miles on it and have decided to keep it another year or two. In my opinion the new es350 lexus grill is hideous and they have what is basically a mouse to use the navigation. The nav also has voice commands but with the front end, the mouse and an ugly silver analog clock on the dash it was not a car I wanted. The audi a4 was very nice but I had a hard time getting in and out of it. same with the audi a6 and that car will be totally new next year. The mazda 6 was a great value (and the only car I test drove) but my left arm kept slipping off the arm rest and the heads up display is thru a piece of 2"x4" piece of plastic that sticks up in front of the dash and does not fold down and it looks and is totally ridiculous. I know there is no perfect car but man I was looking forward to something new.

please don't mention this is a first world problem, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if anyone has a recommendation for a similar type vehicle ie a nice 4 door sedan that is not a step down from my old es350.

thanks

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 4278
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:08 pm

I would fire the design engineer that did the fronts of the new Toyotas and Lexus.
As much as I am dedicated to Toyota/Lexus reliability and track record, the new models are uuuuuggggly. :shock:
I also considered the new Lexus LX SUV but not after seeing the front. :oops:

123
Posts: 3094
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by 123 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:14 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:08 pm
I would fire the design engineer that did the fronts of the new Toyotas and Lexus...
+1
I have been wanting to buy a new Toyota for 2 or 3 years now but the front grills totally turn me off as well. I've had Toyotas for over 15 years without any problems so I have a high level of brand loyalty. I'm slowly warming up to considering other brands.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 4278
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:28 pm

123 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:14 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:08 pm
I would fire the design engineer that did the fronts of the new Toyotas and Lexus...
+1
I have been wanting to buy a new Toyota for 2 or 3 years now but the front grills totally turn me off as well. I've had Toyotas for over 15 years without any problems so I have a high level of brand loyalty. I'm slowly warming up to considering other brands.
What other brand has Toyota reliability and a track record that it has?

RCL
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:48 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by RCL » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:31 pm

I would not buy a Lexus because of that front end!! Too bad, cause the rest of the car looks acceptable
It Is Best To Consult Others Before Taking Unusual Actions

User avatar
unclescrooge
Posts: 2011
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:00 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by unclescrooge » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:45 pm

you could always look at Acuras.

User avatar
CAsage
Posts: 931
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:25 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by CAsage » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:52 pm

I have to agree about the amazingly ugly grills - looks like it's going to chew something up. I had a Camry I loved... and just bought a 2017 Honda Accord hybrid - way nicer design than Toyota, and excellent reliability. I happen to like the seats, and the new controls - most things are push button, little row of square button things... There are two displays and I'm slowly getting used to them. The frequent use buttons are all very clear, but the rest is touch screen. I looked for quite a while before I bought mine. The backup and right turn cameras are AWESOME!
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.

chrischris
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by chrischris » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:18 am

I think Mazdas are the best value. They offer the best overal features, safety and cost. Buy one new and drive it 200k miles. Yes nothing is perfect but the compromises of my Mazda 3 fit me perfectly.

strafe
Posts: 756
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by strafe » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:27 am

Something like a Genesis G80 might be a good fit for you.

Jack FFR1846
Posts: 6657
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:01 am

Japanese cars have always been "what were they thinking?" design wise with occasional strokes of brilliance (S2000, all NSX, Supra, the Z family). Acura used to have beautiful cars across the lineup until they decided to add the stupid beak to the grill. That bad idea has now migrated to the Honda lineup.

There are still good looking cars, but you have to decide if reliability or appearance is more important. In my opinion, Ford has done great work, Chrysler is ahead of the rest and BMW has learned from their Bangle years what NOT to do. On the Japanese side, my humble opinion is that Mazda is the least bad. I think the first generation Mazda 6 was a great looking car while the new one was designed by a 6 year old. VW, like BMW has a good, conservative, traditional look. I'm not a fan of the Audi big gaping hole in the front end and if they could fix that would have cars that beat BMW for appearance. Mercedes has lost its way, making more swoopy, generic looking cars, hit with the ugly stick following a solid decade of great looking, prestige cars.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

Angelus359
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:56 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Angelus359 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 am

I just bought a new Prius and I love the look
IT-DevOps System Administrator

henry
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by henry » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:33 am

Consider the Toyota Avalon. Same exact powertrain as your generation Lexus ES (268 hp V6, 6 speed automatic transmission), larger interior, simpler interior controls, slightly less expensive. Very good reliability due to proven powertrain. Front grille less offensive than in other Toyota products in my opinion.

Kia Cadenza is also in the same class (front drive, V6 powered near luxury sedan). Its sister car, the Hyundai Azera, is also available but only for 2017 as it is being discontinued after this year....but maybe you could get a good deal on a leftover 2017 model.

If you want something more upscale with rear/all wheel drive, some already mentioned the Genesis G80 (formerly the Hyundai Genesis sedan.).

User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by just frank » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am

If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

We are currently a 1 battery-EV, 1 gasmobile family, with the former covering 60-70% of our family driving miles, and the latter mostly for family road-trips. The gasser will be paid off in a few months, and is holding up well given the low miles. But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.

Bonus: I think the pricing will hold up longer in the SUV arena...since EVs will take a few years longer to be competitive in that space. Right now about 3% of new 'cars' sold in the US come with a plug (and is rising fast), but the fraction for SUVs is tiny (just the Model X), and for trucks it is 0%.

Blueskies123
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:18 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Blueskies123 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:12 am

I have looked at the Acura TL but Consumer Reports their reliability has fallen off a cliff. The Avalon is always at the top of every reliability measure in every year measured. The German cars are beautiful but getting them serviced is a nightmare if anything goes wrong with them outside of warranty and I like to hang onto my car for 200,000 miles. A friend was charged $500 for a battery and oil change in is BMW 500 series. I agree all the other Japanese cars are not attractive. Only the Cadillac looks good for American cars but again the reliability is spotty/poor. I too decided to hold onto my 2011 Avalon for a few more years.

User avatar
sunny_socal
Posts: 1466
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by sunny_socal » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 am

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

We are currently a 1 battery-EV, 1 gasmobile family, with the former covering 60-70% of our family driving miles, and the latter mostly for family road-trips. The gasser will be paid off in a few months, and is holding up well given the low miles. But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.

Bonus: I think the pricing will hold up longer in the SUV arena...since EVs will take a few years longer to be competitive in that space. Right now about 3% of new 'cars' sold in the US come with a plug (and is rising fast), but the fraction for SUVs is tiny (just the Model X), and for trucks it is 0%.
If it makes you feel less worried, never has such an efficient method of energy storage been discovered as Oil. Gasoline and especially Diesel contain a ton of energy and the internal combustion engine is not going away any time soon.

Wake me up when there are no more government subsidies for wind/solar generation and EVs have no rebates. Then we will know there has truly been a paradigm shift. I don't mind cutting waste and adopting cleaner ways to live but the very existence of subsidies show that 'clean energy' cannot stand by itself. It is not financially viable and that is a fact. I have solar panels on my house and I love them, BTW - here in southern California solar is wonderful.

Back on topic: yes all the new Toyotas/Lexus models are ugly!

kjvmartin
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:57 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by kjvmartin » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:27 am

just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

We are currently a 1 battery-EV, 1 gasmobile family, with the former covering 60-70% of our family driving miles, and the latter mostly for family road-trips. The gasser will be paid off in a few months, and is holding up well given the low miles. But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.

Bonus: I think the pricing will hold up longer in the SUV arena...since EVs will take a few years longer to be competitive in that space. Right now about 3% of new 'cars' sold in the US come with a plug (and is rising fast), but the fraction for SUVs is tiny (just the Model X), and for trucks it is 0%.
I just don't see the vast majority of apartment/condo/renter dwellers with the ability to convert to electric. Landlords and leasing companies have no interest in installing/maintaining an electric power supply in their parking lots and garages. This will be a considerable hurdle to the adoption of mass electric sales, IMO. Then, it would be too restrictive for someone who moves around a bit. I would have to add 1 more item to my list of requirements for a potential rental, and it could make it difficult or impossible to find somewhere to live in certain areas. Then, I would find myself "holding the bag" on a useless electric car I can't charge.

dbr
Posts: 26161
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by dbr » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:28 am

lomarica01 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 pm
I was looking to replace my 07 lexus es350 with 195,000 miles on it and have decided to keep it another year or two. In my opinion the new es350 lexus grill is hideous and they have what is basically a mouse to use the navigation. The nav also has voice commands but with the front end, the mouse and an ugly silver analog clock on the dash it was not a car I wanted. The audi a4 was very nice but I had a hard time getting in and out of it. same with the audi a6 and that car will be totally new next year. The mazda 6 was a great value (and the only car I test drove) but my left arm kept slipping off the arm rest and the heads up display is thru a piece of 2"x4" piece of plastic that sticks up in front of the dash and does not fold down and it looks and is totally ridiculous. I know there is no perfect car but man I was looking forward to something new.

please don't mention this is a first world problem, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if anyone has a recommendation for a similar type vehicle ie a nice 4 door sedan that is not a step down from my old es350.

thanks
I tried to buy a new sedan a couple of years ago and fled to a CUV, in this case an Outback. I would not guarantee that would help you though. The Hundai Genesis was the one that came closest, but it just didn't work.

User avatar
mrc
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:39 am
Location: right here

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by mrc » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:31 am

kjvmartin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:27 am
just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

We are currently a 1 battery-EV, 1 gasmobile family, with the former covering 60-70% of our family driving miles, and the latter mostly for family road-trips. The gasser will be paid off in a few months, and is holding up well given the low miles. But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.

Bonus: I think the pricing will hold up longer in the SUV arena...since EVs will take a few years longer to be competitive in that space. Right now about 3% of new 'cars' sold in the US come with a plug (and is rising fast), but the fraction for SUVs is tiny (just the Model X), and for trucks it is 0%.
I just don't see the vast majority of apartment/condo/renter dwellers with the ability to convert to electric. Landlords and leasing companies have no interest in installing/maintaining an electric power supply in their parking lots and garages. This will be a considerable hurdle to the adoption of mass electric sales, IMO. Then, it would be too restrictive for someone who moves around a bit. I would have to add 1 more item to my list of requirements for a potential rental, and it could make it difficult or impossible to find somewhere to live in certain areas. Then, I would find myself "holding the bag" on a useless electric car I can't charge.
Gas stations will convert to places where you exchange battery packs. Quicker than filling a tank with liquid fuel. Range infinite. Automated, you just pull in over a mechanism and voila! You are ready to go with a full charge.

So to the OP, get a car you can live with for now. After 200K, you'll be in a completely different market.
Honor to the soldier and sailor everywhere, who bravely bears his country's cause. Honor, also, to the citizen who cares for his brother in the field and serves, as best he can, the same cause. —AL

Rupert
Posts: 2892
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Rupert » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:34 am

I find that anytime automobiles are drastically redesigned I hate the new design for about 2 years. After about 2 years, I get used to it and don't hate it anymore. It starts to look normal to me at that point, especially as other car mfrs start to copy the design and integrate it into their own models (which they always seem to do).

montanagirl
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Montana

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by montanagirl » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:36 am

The small SUV's ALL are ugly and look the same. Same scrunched up rear end and dippy "aero" grille. RAV4, crv,Jeep, crx, rogue, escape, what's the difference and what are the mfrs thinking??

I once made a montage of 12 of the 2014 models and they looked like they were all designed by the same team, with only slight cosmetic differences.

So I am much more a fan of older models.
Last edited by montanagirl on Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sidney
Posts: 6662
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:06 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Sidney » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:37 am

If someone asked me what the front of my car looked like, about the only thing I could say for sure is that there are headlights.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.

keystone
Posts: 479
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:34 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by keystone » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:38 am

Funny, we bought a 2017 Highlander and I like the new grill. Plus I just looked up the new ES 350 and think it looks really nice. I guess love is blind!

gator15
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by gator15 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:59 am

I agree. I really wanted a Lexus GX 460 a couple years ago but I couldn't get over the front end. I must have went to the dealership half a dozen times trying to convince myself to buy the car. Ultimately I couldn't do it. Ultimately I went with a Grand Cherokee which I thoroughly love. Suits my lifestyle.

Regarding car recommendations, I like someone's suggestion of the Genesis. I sat in one of those a couple of months ago and I was impressed.

stoptothink
Posts: 4022
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by stoptothink » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:08 am

Angelus359 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 am
I just bought a new Prius and I love the look
To each their own. IMO it is battling the i3 as the single ugliest vehicle currently manufactured...but I'd gladly drive either.

User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by just frank » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:14 am

sunny_socal wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 am
Wake me up when there are no more government subsidies for wind/solar generation and EVs have no rebates. Then we will know there has truly been a paradigm shift. I don't mind cutting waste and adopting cleaner ways to live but the very existence of subsidies show that 'clean energy' cannot stand by itself. It is not financially viable and that is a fact. I have solar panels on my house and I love them, BTW - here in southern California solar is wonderful.
You are awfully certain regarding what is basically a moving target. The price of solar PV, wind turbines and EV batteries have all been falling exponentially for years now, according to the well understood phenomenon of the 'learning curve'. The current US subsidies for all three of these technologies have sunsets and are set to expire in a couple years, and yet many billions of dollars of private money are pouring in. Are all those investors unaware of existing subsidies sunsetting in a year or two? Do they expect the current administration to re-up all those subsidies in 2018-19? Or have they done the value projection on the prices of this technology and decided that rather than merely being competitive on price with existing tech, it will significantly undercut and disrupt existing tech?

You also neglect to mention that direct govt subsidies to fossil energy companies exceed those to renewable energy, and always have. Without those subsidies we would have neither coal plants nor be fracking for oil at $50/bbl....both industries are propped up by direct subsidy, which do NOT have planned sunsets, BTW.

User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by just frank » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:17 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:08 am
Angelus359 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 am
I just bought a new Prius and I love the look
To each their own. IMO it is battling the i3 as the single ugliest vehicle currently manufactured...but I'd gladly drive either.
I couldn't agree more about both cars (all the BMWs look like they have pig snouts to me)...and I drive an 'ugly' car...the LEAF.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 7205
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:20 am

Rupert wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:34 am
I find that anytime automobiles are drastically redesigned I hate the new design for about 2 years. After about 2 years, I get used to it and don't hate it anymore. It starts to look normal to me at that point, especially as other car mfrs start to copy the design and integrate it into their own models (which they always seem to do).
I would agree, but my acceptance of the Lexus front end is not happening. It looks jarring to me, and I drive a Tesla Model X (which some say has a face only a mother could like).

It appears to appeal to a younger demographic, so perhaps there was a method to the madness.

User avatar
Alexa9
Posts: 1013
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:41 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Alexa9 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:24 am

+1 for the Avalon.
I think the 2017 Accord is nice looking and they're having a fire sale right now. The all new 2018 is growing on me too.
I might lease/buy a CPO E Class/5 series and see if you like it.

emoore
Posts: 400
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by emoore » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:48 am

I agree that it does take a year or two to get used to new designs. Then they become accepted and the newer ones in 5 years are ugly again! Also I am not planning on buying anymore ICE cars. I think they will be on their way out sooner rather than later.

miles monroe
Posts: 1175
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:14 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by miles monroe » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:51 am

i look at gas mileage, reliabilty, and interior space utility (can i sleep in it?). i don't care what it looks like; inside or out.

my current car -- which is perfect for my lifestyle -- is a honda element. makes me sick they stopped making em. and my sons tell me everytime they go somewhere with me how ugly my car is.

TN_Boy
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:51 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by TN_Boy » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:56 am

mrc wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:31 am
kjvmartin wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:27 am
just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

We are currently a 1 battery-EV, 1 gasmobile family, with the former covering 60-70% of our family driving miles, and the latter mostly for family road-trips. The gasser will be paid off in a few months, and is holding up well given the low miles. But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.

Bonus: I think the pricing will hold up longer in the SUV arena...since EVs will take a few years longer to be competitive in that space. Right now about 3% of new 'cars' sold in the US come with a plug (and is rising fast), but the fraction for SUVs is tiny (just the Model X), and for trucks it is 0%.
I just don't see the vast majority of apartment/condo/renter dwellers with the ability to convert to electric. Landlords and leasing companies have no interest in installing/maintaining an electric power supply in their parking lots and garages. This will be a considerable hurdle to the adoption of mass electric sales, IMO. Then, it would be too restrictive for someone who moves around a bit. I would have to add 1 more item to my list of requirements for a potential rental, and it could make it difficult or impossible to find somewhere to live in certain areas. Then, I would find myself "holding the bag" on a useless electric car I can't charge.
Gas stations will convert to places where you exchange battery packs. Quicker than filling a tank with liquid fuel. Range infinite. Automated, you just pull in over a mechanism and voila! You are ready to go with a full charge.

So to the OP, get a car you can live with for now. After 200K, you'll be in a completely different market.
It will be really interesting to see what the car market looks like in 20 years. The magic battery pack exchange (am I right that the Tesla can do something like this now? .. actually googling a bit it seems like they tried that but have backed off it) however, is not going to happen across the spectrum of vehicle types for a long time. The battery pack for a tesla versus a small sedan versus an SUV versus a big pickup ..... stations would have to stock a wide variety. And gas stations need to continue to supply gasoline and diesel fuel. I think EVs need a faster charge method to be practical across a wide variety of vehicle types.

I think EV market share will continue to grow, but really serious technical and logistical issues remain for wide-spread adoption. I can see lots of people with one ICE/hybrid and one EV. I don't worry about buying an ICE car now being obsolete when I am done with it.

sambb
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:31 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by sambb » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:02 am

I really like the new cars, except the tesla model x, which is odd to me
I believe lexus sales went up after the new grill was introduced
i love the new features and high tech in cars these days
Will lease so i can continue to experience it

bloom2708
Posts: 3776
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:08 pm
Location: Fargo, ND

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by bloom2708 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:06 am

OP, maybe look at a Lexus LS with lower miles. The ES is a great car. The LS takes it to the next level.

Every redesign and new grill takes time to get used to. I prefer the older/blander Lexus style, but the new ones are pretty nice. I just don't want to spend that much. Different from should not spend that much.

Still driving my LS 430. :wink:
"We are here not to please but to provoke thoughtfulness" Unknown Boglehead

User avatar
tcassette
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:20 pm
Location: Southeast Tennessee

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by tcassette » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:11 am

lomarica01 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 pm
I was looking to replace my 07 lexus es350 with 195,000 miles on it and have decided to keep it another year or two. In my opinion the new es350 lexus grill is hideous and they have what is basically a mouse to use the navigation. The nav also has voice commands but with the front end, the mouse and an ugly silver analog clock on the dash it was not a car I wanted. The audi a4 was very nice but I had a hard time getting in and out of it. same with the audi a6 and that car will be totally new next year. The mazda 6 was a great value (and the only car I test drove) but my left arm kept slipping off the arm rest and the heads up display is thru a piece of 2"x4" piece of plastic that sticks up in front of the dash and does not fold down and it looks and is totally ridiculous. I know there is no perfect car but man I was looking forward to something new.

please don't mention this is a first world problem, just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if anyone has a recommendation for a similar type vehicle ie a nice 4 door sedan that is not a step down from my old es350.

thanks
Here's a left-field suggestion: 2018 Subaru Legacy Limited sedan. With a few options, including the 6-cylinder engine, this is luxury-lite at a very reasonable price, especially considering the standard AWD.

User avatar
Ricola
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:38 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Ricola » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:21 am

[/quote]

I just don't see the vast majority of apartment/condo/renter dwellers with the ability to convert to electric. Landlords and leasing companies have no interest in installing/maintaining an electric power supply in their parking lots and garages. This will be a considerable hurdle to the adoption of mass electric sales, IMO. Then, it would be too restrictive for someone who moves around a bit. I would have to add 1 more item to my list of requirements for a potential rental, and it could make it difficult or impossible to find somewhere to live in certain areas. Then, I would find myself "holding the bag" on a useless electric car I can't charge.
[/quote]

Agree, to me EVs just have a different type of fuel tank. It still needs to be continually refuelled. Due to their short range and lack of refuelling sources the only owners will be folks with 2 or more cars and have a garage to refuel it in. Probably a sizeable market, but not a replacement for ICE vehicles. A fueling infrastructure is just not there, and no real plan is in place to get there. Maybe give it a few hundred years. :)

User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by just frank » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:28 am

TN_Boy wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:56 am
It will be really interesting to see what the car market looks like in 20 years. The magic battery pack exchange (am I right that the Tesla can do something like this now? .. actually googling a bit it seems like they tried that but have backed off it) however, is not going to happen across the spectrum of vehicle types for a long time. The battery pack for a tesla versus a small sedan versus an SUV versus a big pickup ..... stations would have to stock a wide variety. And gas stations need to continue to supply gasoline and diesel fuel. I think EVs need a faster charge method to be practical across a wide variety of vehicle types.

I think EV market share will continue to grow, but really serious technical and logistical issues remain for wide-spread adoption. I can see lots of people with one ICE/hybrid and one EV. I don't worry about buying an ICE car now being obsolete when I am done with it.
I think battery swapping is silly, we will just engineer batteries that charge in 10 minutes when we really care to.

OR, you can check out this weird pourable battery tech.... https://www.tanktwo.com/tanktwo-technology/

finite_difference
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by finite_difference » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:44 am

sunny_socal wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 am
just frank wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 am
If it makes you feel better....those new cars will likely have terrible resale too after EVs take over.

We are currently a 1 battery-EV, 1 gasmobile family, with the former covering 60-70% of our family driving miles, and the latter mostly for family road-trips. The gasser will be paid off in a few months, and is holding up well given the low miles. But I am concerned that EVs will eventually destroy ICE used car resale value. MIght be 5 years, might be 10 years, but and some point a lot of gasmobile owners will be left holding a bag.

So I think that IF I replace the gasser with a new ICE vehicle in a few years....it might make more sense to LEASE to avoid the RISK.

Bonus: I think the pricing will hold up longer in the SUV arena...since EVs will take a few years longer to be competitive in that space. Right now about 3% of new 'cars' sold in the US come with a plug (and is rising fast), but the fraction for SUVs is tiny (just the Model X), and for trucks it is 0%.
If it makes you feel less worried, never has such an efficient method of energy storage been discovered as Oil. Gasoline and especially Diesel contain a ton of energy and the internal combustion engine is not going away any time soon.

Wake me up when there are no more government subsidies for wind/solar generation and EVs have no rebates. Then we will know there has truly been a paradigm shift. I don't mind cutting waste and adopting cleaner ways to live but the very existence of subsidies show that 'clean energy' cannot stand by itself. It is not financially viable and that is a fact. I have solar panels on my house and I love them, BTW - here in southern California solar is wonderful.

Back on topic: yes all the new Toyotas/Lexus models are ugly!
You are acting like oil is not subsidized. Considering the long term impacts (and costs) of using fossil fuels, requiring companies to not offset that cost by itself would be a potentially enormous subsidy. Food is also subsidized. So I am not sure what your point is about renewables being subsidized when the entire energy market is so heavily subsidized, now and historically.

I do agree that gasoline has great energy density and modern cars that meet EPA regulations in the US are pretty awesome marvels of engineering all around, and the impact on air quality (compared to weak European regulations on NOx) and the environment has been substantially reduced.

I like the look of the new Lexus. Much better than some of the Corolla/Camry versions of the trill (although I think some of those are decent.) If you don’t like it, buy a different model/brand! Apart from a few models, it’s not like Lexus was #1 in the design department before anyway!!
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh

finite_difference
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by finite_difference » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:49 am

Ricola wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:21 am

I just don't see the vast majority of apartment/condo/renter dwellers with the ability to convert to electric. Landlords and leasing companies have no interest in installing/maintaining an electric power supply in their parking lots and garages. This will be a considerable hurdle to the adoption of mass electric sales, IMO. Then, it would be too restrictive for someone who moves around a bit. I would have to add 1 more item to my list of requirements for a potential rental, and it could make it difficult or impossible to find somewhere to live in certain areas. Then, I would find myself "holding the bag" on a useless electric car I can't charge.
Agree, to me EVs just have a different type of fuel tank. It still needs to be continually refuelled. Due to their short range and lack of refuelling sources the only owners will be folks with 2 or more cars and have a garage to refuel it in. Probably a sizeable market, but not a replacement for ICE vehicles. A fueling infrastructure is just not there, and no real plan is in place to get there. Maybe give it a few hundred years. :)
Except that electricity is everywhere. Once the tech is sorted out and mass produced I don’t think it will be that expensive. It’ll pay for itself pretty quickly or could be sold as a bundle with the car.

I do think ICE will be around for at least 10 more years but I agree that EV is the future. Elon Musk/Tesla deserve credit for ushering in the new era and showing it was possible. But now major manufacturers are committing to 100% EV, and I would think they know what they’re talking about (Volvo, GM).

I know for my next car (in 10 years or so), I want an EV.

User avatar
jabberwockOG
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 7:23 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by jabberwockOG » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:08 pm

The current Lexus spindle grill is not something most people are ever going to get used to. That grill design will be legendary some day in the hall of design shame as a high water mark of obnoxiously fugly automotive design.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 4278
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by Sandtrap » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:09 pm

Perhaps that's why so many folks are going "retro". :D

1969 Camaro Z28
1969 Pontiac GTO (the Judge) . . or '65 which is gorgeous
1969 Cutlass Supreme convertible
60's Chevelle SS 396
'65 Mustang Fastback Shelby
'65 Austin Healey MKiii 3000
'65 Shelby Cobra

2pedals
Posts: 372
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:31 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by 2pedals » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:17 pm

I dislike the front grill look on many of the new cars, but I would buy any of them if in the market.

rgs92
Posts: 1771
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by rgs92 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:29 pm

The main problem is that the new cars are all designed for shorter, narrower drivers.
The range of seat movement back and forth and the seat-tilt upward movement is terribly reduced.
And you sit too low, so it makes things even worse. And the darn center console often keeps me from turning my right foot outwards enough. On some cars, the left foot is angled inwards.

They brag about umpteen-way adjustments, but then severely limit the RANGE of those adjustments, even the most basic ones.

There is way too much emphasis on rear seats. They compromised the front ones. I really don't care about the rear seats. They are just for grocery bags for me.

They save money on, of all things. the front seats, which are always a deal-breaker for me.
Even expensive cars, big SUVs, and minivans squeeze me in. I'm 6 feet tall with 40-inch legs and size 13 feet (that turn outward somewhat), so I'm not even that tall.

And the front edges of the car seat are hard and clip me under the thigh.

The front seats don't go back or tilt upwards far enough, and the accelerator pedal is too close.
The old, cheap, Mercury Grand Marquis had lots of room for the driver (and even had adjustable front pedals) to accommodate everyone.

The least of my worries is how the car looks or how its electronics work. I can cope with that, but not being crammed into a sardine can.

Big Infinitis, Lexuses, Acuras, Buicks, Cadillacs, Chevrolets, Fords, Lincolns, the Chrysler 300, and even the BMW 5 & 7 were all too small even with the seats all the back and tilted upwards. All the Toyotas and Hondas were just plain undrivable.

The Toyota Highlander was totally awful, and even the giant Sequoia with the seat all the way back had my right leg jammed to the left and not forward enough.

The Toyota Avalon had my left foot crammed upwards and jammed under the emergency brake like in a vise. The Camry was even worse.

I've heard the Genesis G90 was good in this respect, but I have not tried it. The last generation Mercedes S class was very comfortable and spacious, but why should I have to spend that kind of money just to get the room that was common in cars 20+ years ago?
Last edited by rgs92 on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 11 times in total.

lazydavid
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:32 pm

henry wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:33 am
Consider the Toyota Avalon. Same exact powertrain as your generation Lexus ES (268 hp V6, 6 speed automatic transmission), larger interior, simpler interior controls, slightly less expensive. Very good reliability due to proven powertrain. Front grille less offensive than in other Toyota products in my opinion.
Though the Avalon's interior is larger than the OP's ES, it is the same as the current ES. The first five generations of ES were based on the Camry, but the current sixth generation (2012+) is based on the Avalon. I'd still take the current ES over the Avalon, spindle grille or no, because some of the interior trim and switchgear on the current Avalon is cheap to the point of being unbecoming of a $34-43k car. And I don't know about you, but I look at the inside of my car a WHOLE LOT more than I look at the outside.

Good mention of the Genesis G80, I agree wholeheartedly. My parents replaced their 2000 Avalon with a 2012 Hyundai Genesis, and still love it to pieces 6 years later. It's just a whole 'nother class above the Avalon/ES, for pretty close to the same money. Theirs was actually significantly cheaper, because the Avalon was brand new at the time and there was no discounting to be had.
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:08 am
Angelus359 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 am
I just bought a new Prius and I love the look
To each their own. IMO it is battling the i3 as the single ugliest vehicle currently manufactured...but I'd gladly drive either.
While both are ugly, IMO nothing compares to the Nissan Juke. It is the modern-day Pontiac Aztek, and I throw up in my mouth a little every time I see one from the front.

multiham
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:28 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by multiham » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:43 pm

Would love to see the opinions of the Toyota/Lexus grille based on age group and car enthusiast. My take is that the younger crowd will like the grille. I really like the look of the new Camry as I think they mad is sportier looking upfront.

I'll jump in with 2 more opinions on some comments in this thread

1. I have not had any luck with my last 2 Toyota's. First one was a 2004 Sienna which absolutely died in 2010. It was so catastrophic, that the mechanics at the dealership told my wife to not put another $ against this car. Started having coolant issues around 80,000 miles and finally had to donate the car at 95,000 miles. EVERY service was performed on time and at a Toyota dealership so this was not a case of neglecting the car
2. Just had to get rid of a 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Can had a few small issues over time, but nothing serious. About 2 months ago, my wife was driving it to the store and every warning light came on at once. She pulled over and shut the car off. Car would not start again. Had it towed to dealership who diagnosed problem (via computer and they let me see it) as a bad electrical inverter. To get at the part, you basically have to take out all the back seats. Cost to replace at Toyota was over $7,000. Checked with other independents in area and the best cost was $5,500.

We are still looking to replace the car and I'm thinking Honda.

lazydavid
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:45 pm

rgs92 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:29 pm
The main problem is that the new cars are all designed for shorter, narrower drivers.
The range of seat movement back and forth and the seat-tilt upward movement is far terribly reduced.
And you sit too low, so it makes things even worse.

They save money on, of all things. the front seats, which are always a deal-breaker for me.
Even expensive cars, big SUVs, and minivans squeeze me in. I'm 6 feet tall with 40-inch legs and size 13 feet, so I'm not even that tall.
Except for the sitting low part, check out BMW. I'm 6'4", 305lbs, and have driven a 3-series for the past 18 years (first an E46, now an E90). On the E46, which was smaller, I literally could not drive it with the seat all the way back, because I couldn't get the clutch pedal to the floor. I'm a 34-35" inseam, so you'd have to have REALLY long legs to not be able to find a comfortable driving position. The seat goes forward to within 4" of the steering wheel, or all the way back to behind the B-pillar.

Regardless of brand though, with modern cars of the same size, you will almost always have more front legroom in a RWD car with a longitudinally-mounted engine and conventional transmission, than a FWD with a transverse-mounted engine and transaxle. That's because the mechancials are centrally-mounted, and thus can extend between the driver and passenger, as opposed to taking up the entirety of the space forward of the firewall. There are of course exceptions--see my comments below on the Grand Marquis--but this is generally true for cars designed in the past 25 years.
rgs92 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:29 pm
And the front edges of the car seat are hard an clip me under the thigh.
Find a model with extensible thigh bolsters. The seat can support you nicely right behind the knee.
rgs92 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:29 pm
.
The old, cheap, Mercury Grand Marquis had lots of room for the driver (and even had adjustable front pedals) to accommodate everyone.
I call BS on this one. The Grand Marquis is literally THE most uncomfortable full-size or larger car I've ever driven in my entire life. We had to drive one home from Baltimore to Chicago when Sandy cancelled all of our flights. My entire family (except my son, who was blissfully happy in his Recaro car seat) literally could not walk upright for two days after that. We're all relatively tall--my father-in-law is 6'1", and my wife is 5'11", and in order to make enough room for people to get into the back seat, we had to move the front seats up so far that our knees dug into the dashboard. Combine that with overly-soft incredibly unsupportive seats, and you have a recipe for intense back pain. By contrast, the Impala we had for the rest of that vacation--exchanged on that fateful day such as to limit the 1-way rates to a singe day rather than the entire week--was 1,000x more comfortable and roomy. To this day, we wish we had kept it and paid the extra $800 it would have cost to just drive it home.

Despite being nearly 20 feet long, the Grand Marquis has dramatically less total legroom (front and rear combined) than my little 3-series, which is the size of a Honda Civic. The four of us have made 8+ hour drives in my old E46 in relative comfort.
Last edited by lazydavid on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rgs92
Posts: 1771
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by rgs92 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:52 pm

Interesting. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try the BMW.
But, from memory, for some reason when I rented a Grand Marquis for a week way back in 2001, I like it a lot, maybe it's my particular physique.
Maybe the seats wear out over time.
(I never tried the rear seat in the Grand Marquis.)
But again, big thanks for the suggestions. I'm about 225 lbs, just for the record.

I forgot to mention that I once sat in the (yes, rear wheel drive) Hyundai Equus and like it. So you may have a point with RWD. Thanks.
Good luck.

rxtra8
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:12 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by rxtra8 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:59 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:01 am
Japanese cars have always been "what were they thinking?" design wise with occasional strokes of brilliance (S2000, all NSX, Supra, the Z family). Acura used to have beautiful cars across the lineup until they decided to add the stupid beak to the grill. That bad idea has now migrated to the Honda lineup.

There are still good looking cars, but you have to decide if reliability or appearance is more important. In my opinion, Ford has done great work, Chrysler is ahead of the rest and BMW has learned from their Bangle years what NOT to do. On the Japanese side, my humble opinion is that Mazda is the least bad. I think the first generation Mazda 6 was a great looking car while the new one was designed by a 6 year old. VW, like BMW has a good, conservative, traditional look. I'm not a fan of the Audi big gaping hole in the front end and if they could fix that would have cars that beat BMW for appearance. Mercedes has lost its way, making more swoopy, generic looking cars, hit with the ugly stick following a solid decade of great looking, prestige cars.
+1
Almost totally agree, but still do not like Chrysler...the Lexus and Audi are particularly egregious in styling. If I were to buy a new car, it would probably be a VW GTI; performance and good looks. If SUV, a Mazda CX5 or Porsche Macan (I know big difference in $ but those 2 are very nimble).

Glad I am not looking for a new car, but would not mind a 996 TT if my wife makes me sell my '65 Corvette!!!
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” | — Robertson Davies

lazydavid
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by lazydavid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:08 pm

rgs92 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:52 pm
Interesting. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try the BMW.
No problem. I actually just suggested the 3-series GT to someone in another thread, and that might be a good one for you to look at (or the larger 5-series GT). It has even more legroom (both front and rear) than the regular 3 (or 5) series, and sits a little higher too, so might be better all-around for your needs. Since you're not a fatso like me, look for one with sport seats, which will have the thigh bolsters.

As a bonus, since the US market hates hatchbacks and would rather pay $20k more for a nearly-identical SUV, they can be had relatively cheap. 3GT is based on the LWB 3-series that is otherwise only sold in China, and the 5GT is based on the 7-series. I can cross my legs in the backseat of the 5GT, with the front seat set to an ideal driving position for me.

sixty40
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:53 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by sixty40 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:09 pm

rxtra8 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:59 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:01 am
Japanese cars have always been "what were they thinking?" design wise with occasional strokes of brilliance (S2000, all NSX, Supra, the Z family). Acura used to have beautiful cars across the lineup until they decided to add the stupid beak to the grill. That bad idea has now migrated to the Honda lineup.

There are still good looking cars, but you have to decide if reliability or appearance is more important. In my opinion, Ford has done great work, Chrysler is ahead of the rest and BMW has learned from their Bangle years what NOT to do. On the Japanese side, my humble opinion is that Mazda is the least bad. I think the first generation Mazda 6 was a great looking car while the new one was designed by a 6 year old. VW, like BMW has a good, conservative, traditional look. I'm not a fan of the Audi big gaping hole in the front end and if they could fix that would have cars that beat BMW for appearance. Mercedes has lost its way, making more swoopy, generic looking cars, hit with the ugly stick following a solid decade of great looking, prestige cars.
+1
Almost totally agree, but still do not like Chrysler...the Lexus and Audi are particularly egregious in styling. If I were to buy a new car, it would probably be a VW GTI; performance and good looks. If SUV, a Mazda CX5 or Porsche Macan (I know big difference in $ but those 2 are very nimble).

Glad I am not looking for a new car, but would not mind a 996 TT if my wife makes me sell my '65 Corvette!!!
What about a 993 twin turbo, that may set someone back a pretty penny at current asking prices. Last (and best) of the air cooled!

daveydoo
Posts: 1207
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:53 am

Re: anyone else not liking the new cars?

Post by daveydoo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:10 pm

Haven't bought a Toyota product in over two decades but I was happy to see that they are starting to up their game vis-a-vis handling, performance, and even styling. I like the new Lexus grills :happy . I'd even consider an RC-F -- would be nice to have a reliable performance sedan since Acura has fallen off the map.

I think many BH don't realize that for there to be an abundance of ten year-old Lexus vehicles, someone actually needs to buy them new for $60K or $80K and that's where the problem was. The "sensible shoe" of luxury cars just wasn't generating much enthusiasm. I think they realized they'd be alienating some octogenarians with the new approach, but you can't sell a premium product on cupholders, comfy seats, and reliability alone.

Many here forget that back in the late '90's, Lexus was an aspirational brand -- in my irritatingly aspirational neighborhood, there was a Lexus SUV in every other garage (but Hondas in mine). They should be able to make sensational and usable performance vehicles -- it just hasn't been a priority for folks who bought them. I've often wished Toyota/Lexus they could be more like Apple -- and create the enthusiasm by making a crave-worthy product instead of having all of their vehicles designed by focus groups. I know their CEO has been looking in this direction, finally.
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael...what could it cost? Ten dollars?"

Post Reply