Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

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radiowave
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Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by radiowave » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:49 pm

Well I've been a good Boglehead but my tired 2004 CR-V with 171K miles needs too much work to be worth keeping. So I drove a 2017 new CR-V base LX, no options, happy with it, sticker was $26,600 . . . can anyone give feedback what to expect for an out the door price. I'll pay cash and no trade in.
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andrew1976
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by andrew1976 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:57 pm

My dad just bought a 2017 CR-V EX last month in New Jersey for $26752 before tax/title/registration.

viking112347
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by viking112347 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:01 pm

I have been waiting for my 2004 Honda CRV to die so I can buy a modern car/SUV! It has 351,000 miles and keeps chugging away so I feel guilty putting it out to pasture.

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yukonjack
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by yukonjack » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:04 pm

I can’t give you a specific number but if I was buying this late in the cycle I would drive a very hard bargain. 2018s are on the way and most dealers desperately want to get rid of the 2017s.

radiowave
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by radiowave » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:50 pm

viking112347 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:01 pm
I have been waiting for my 2004 Honda CRV to die so I can buy a modern car/SUV! It has 351,000 miles and keeps chugging away so I feel guilty putting it out to pasture.
I wish I could get those miles. Been real happy with my 2004 model. But drove it off a high road edge recently (long story) and seem to have bent something underneath, I can hear the driveshaft rubbing some times and the rear break lights l/r are not working (bulbs OK). Lastly the molding for windows and windshield are cracked and worried about snow ice getting inside doors. That and need new stuts all 4 leads me to the sad decision to put my old friend to pasture and buy a new one.
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tapotti
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by tapotti » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:35 am

Just bought a new Honda CRV 2017 EX-L at the end of September.

Paid 30210 out the door (I live in California).

fundseeker
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by fundseeker » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:46 am

viking112347 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:01 pm
I have been waiting for my 2004 Honda CRV to die so I can buy a modern car/SUV! It has 351,000 miles and keeps chugging away so I feel guilty putting it out to pasture.
Mmmm...it's good to be thrifty, but there's something to be said for having the latest in safety features (e.g. more airbags, etc.), and for enjoying your ride through life :)

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oldcomputerguy
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by oldcomputerguy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:47 am

radiowave wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:50 pm
viking112347 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:01 pm
I have been waiting for my 2004 Honda CRV to die so I can buy a modern car/SUV! It has 351,000 miles and keeps chugging away so I feel guilty putting it out to pasture.
I wish I could get those miles. Been real happy with my 2004 model. But drove it off a high road edge recently (long story) and seem to have bent something underneath, I can hear the driveshaft rubbing some times and the rear break lights l/r are not working (bulbs OK). Lastly the molding for windows and windshield are cracked and worried about snow ice getting inside doors. That and need new stuts all 4 leads me to the sad decision to put my old friend to pasture and buy a new one.
I've always been a "drive it until it dies" guy (especially given that I absolutely hate having a car payment and always have). In this particular case, I have to agree with you; given what you describe, yep, sounds like structural damage, I'd say it's time to move on.

As a side note, for what it's worth, I sympathize with your wanting to keep your old friend. Back when she was learning to drive, DW's dad bought her a three-year-old Datsun B-210 as her first car. She (later we) drove that car for fourteen years, through getting married, four moves, and two college degrees. She finally had to let it go when it developed a small crack in the engine block.

She's now driving a 2010 CR-V, and we've been very happy with it, to the extent that I'm looking now at the possibility of replacing my 2004 Toyota truck with a (used) CR-V if and when it finally dies.
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CULater
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by CULater » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 am

I think the deal varies by location. In Phoenix they weren't offering much of a discount. Finally bought a 2017 Touring in Iowa in August for $4K off sticker with trade-in of my 2002 CRV with 200K miles. CarMax quoted me a price of $1500 on my CRV, so I figure that the discount on my 2017 was about $2500. The 2018 CRV will be coming out in December, so you should be able to do better on a 2017 soon.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

kjvmartin
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by kjvmartin » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:28 am

radiowave wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:49 pm
Well I've been a good Boglehead but my tired 2004 CR-V with 171K miles needs too much work to be worth keeping. So I drove a 2017 new CR-V base LX, no options, happy with it, sticker was $26,600 . . . can anyone give feedback what to expect for an out the door price. I'll pay cash and no trade in.
I couldn't get any wiggle room on a CR-V, so I tried the Costco Auto plan. FWIW, they were sold out of LX models at my 3 nearest dealerships. They only had EX, EX-L and higher.

I discarded the paperwork, because it was still too much $$ for me, but it was about $1100 cheaper than the price they had been offering me elsewhere.

thangngo
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by thangngo » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:36 am

radiowave wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:49 pm
Well I've been a good Boglehead but my tired 2004 CR-V with 171K miles needs too much work to be worth keeping. So I drove a 2017 new CR-V base LX, no options, happy with it, sticker was $26,600 . . . can anyone give feedback what to expect for an out the door price. I'll pay cash and no trade in.
$26,600 for a base model CR-V? Ugh.. New car is expensive. Back in 2008, I remember my Aunt got a new Camry out of the door price for $18,000 and I thought it's a luxury.

I think it's fine if you can keep your new car for 13 year like you did. $28k over 13 years will give you an average cost of $2,150 a year. Not so bad at all.

straws46
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by straws46 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:41 am

Culater did better than I. I got the touring model for $1800 under sticker in an all cash deal in Missouri. What a great vehicle! One thing I finally learned was to but the Honda floor mats through Amazon or another on line seller rather than the dealer. At the dealer they would be included in the price of the car for sales tax purposes and the same mats were a lot cheaper on the internet.

Arthur Digby Sellers
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by Arthur Digby Sellers » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:59 am

There are a ton of 2017 CR-V pricing datapoints in a thread over at crvownersclub.com -- http://www.crvownersclub.com/forums/137 ... hread.html

I would recommend looking at the end of the thread to see what people have been paying recently. You should be able to get a better price than what people were paying when the thread started last December.

radiowave
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by radiowave » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am

Thanks for all the feedback. I took my wife out last night and we drove the LX, EX, EX-L. She has some difficulty with different types of seats so that was the driving factor (pun intended). I like the LX, good basic CR-V with back up camera and Bluetooth phone. I'm getting 1-1.3K off sticker on 2017 models (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November). The EX had a lot more toys, you can hook up your iPhone and basically use the vehicle display for GPS off the iPhone. It also has the forward camera with adaptive cruise control - pretty scary watching the vehicle brake itself coming up to an intersection behind a another car. The leather EX-L is nice, comfortable, but not sure I want to spend ~32k vs 25K for the LX. If it wasn't for the seat issue, I'd definitely buy the LX base model.

thoughts?
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BUBear29
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by BUBear29 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:07 am

radiowave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am
Thanks for all the feedback. I took my wife out last night and we drove the LX, EX, EX-L. She has some difficulty with different types of seats so that was the driving factor (pun intended). I like the LX, good basic CR-V with back up camera and Bluetooth phone. I'm getting 1-1.3K off sticker on 2017 models (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November). The EX had a lot more toys, you can hook up your iPhone and basically use the vehicle display for GPS off the iPhone. It also has the forward camera with adaptive cruise control - pretty scary watching the vehicle brake itself coming up to an intersection behind a another car. The leather EX-L is nice, comfortable, but not sure I want to spend ~32k vs 25K for the LX. If it wasn't for the seat issue, I'd definitely buy the LX base model.

thoughts?
I'd go EX or EX-L esp if you plan to drive a long time. I personally prefer non leather seats but i prefer power adjustable seats as well. This is for your wife? Get her the EX L - power liftgates save lives
There is no dignity quite so impressive, and no one independence quite so important, as living within your means.

CULater
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by CULater » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:36 am

One thing about the automatic forward braking on the CRV I've noticed, probably same for all or most vehicles that have it. A few times I've had it start to kick in when there is a vehicle turning right in front of me and it hasn't completely cleared the road. Normally, without auto braking you're aware of the situation and know the ahead vehicle is not stopping in front of you so you wouldn't hit your brakes. Can be a little disconcerting especially when you have a car on your tail and they aren't expecting you to slow down that much. Just something to be aware of with this system until you get used to it.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

radiowave
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by radiowave » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:03 am

CULater wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:36 am
One thing about the automatic forward braking on the CRV I've noticed, probably same for all or most vehicles that have it. A few times I've had it start to kick in when there is a vehicle turning right in front of me and it hasn't completely cleared the road. Normally, without auto braking you're aware of the situation and know the ahead vehicle is not stopping in front of you so you wouldn't hit your brakes. Can be a little disconcerting especially when you have a car on your tail and they aren't expecting you to slow down that much. Just something to be aware of with this system until you get used to it.
I did notice it was hunting a bit on a curved road so not sure it's something I'll use much. I rarely use the cruise control on my 2004 CR-V even on long trips. Mostly to keep sharp and not get complacent with the automatic features.

One nice feature of the EX-L is you can set it up for two drivers, just push a button and reconfigures drivers seat and mirrors. All creature comforts and not sure I can justify the cost difference versus the base LX model.
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michaeljc70
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by michaeljc70 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:09 am

BUBear29 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:07 am
radiowave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am
Thanks for all the feedback. I took my wife out last night and we drove the LX, EX, EX-L. She has some difficulty with different types of seats so that was the driving factor (pun intended). I like the LX, good basic CR-V with back up camera and Bluetooth phone. I'm getting 1-1.3K off sticker on 2017 models (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November). The EX had a lot more toys, you can hook up your iPhone and basically use the vehicle display for GPS off the iPhone. It also has the forward camera with adaptive cruise control - pretty scary watching the vehicle brake itself coming up to an intersection behind a another car. The leather EX-L is nice, comfortable, but not sure I want to spend ~32k vs 25K for the LX. If it wasn't for the seat issue, I'd definitely buy the LX base model.

thoughts?
I'd go EX or EX-L esp if you plan to drive a long time. I personally prefer non leather seats but i prefer power adjustable seats as well. This is for your wife? Get her the EX L - power liftgates save lives
On my last vehicle, I went bare bones. The only option I got was 4wd (we can get a lot of snow). After keeping that 13 years, in shopping for a new car I found the price on a lot of the upgrades to be high and not really worth it in my mind. However, I just bit the bullet and got the almost top of the line thinking that if I am going to keep this for a long time and be happy with it, it was worth it. I am also financially at a time in my life were I don't need to scrimp as much as I used to.

TLC1957
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by TLC1957 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:31 pm

radiowave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am
s (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November)
I hope the 2018 comes out in November looking to buy my first new car. After driving company cars for 36 years where the only decision I had to make was the color, looking forward to a touring model since I plan to keep it for a long time. Good luck in your search.

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Alexa9
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by Alexa9 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:21 pm

http://tellmethebest.com/honda.html

This website gives you the lowest price someone paid for Honda/Toyota vehicles. I'm sure some people get even better than this but it gives you an estimate better than TrueCar, KBB, or Costco. LX FWD CRV is 22,500 +TTL

CULater
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by CULater » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:53 pm

TLC1957 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:31 pm
radiowave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am
s (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November)
I hope the 2018 comes out in November looking to buy my first new car. After driving company cars for 36 years where the only decision I had to make was the color, looking forward to a touring model since I plan to keep it for a long time. Good luck in your search.
From googling, it appears the 2018 is unchanged from 2017. Would seem to me a better price could be had on a 2017 about now for basically the same vehicle. Why wait?
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

TLC1957
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by TLC1957 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:58 am

CULater wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:53 pm
TLC1957 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:31 pm
radiowave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am
s (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November)
I hope the 2018 comes out in November looking to buy my first new car. After driving company cars for 36 years where the only decision I had to make was the color, looking forward to a touring model since I plan to keep it for a long time. Good luck in your search.
From googling, it appears the 2018 is unchanged from 2017. Would seem to me a better price could be had on a 2017 about now for basically the same vehicle. Why wait?
The 2017 CRV is a totally new vehicle including engine, trans, chassis etc. I figured they must have had a few bugs to work out, so waiting for 2018.

Is that what a boglehead would do?...

fundseeker
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by fundseeker » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:49 am

radiowave, from my review of Truecar.com prices in our area, the EX is not even $3,000 more than the very basic LX. We have always bought EX Hondas because we do not need too many extras, but I gotta believe the extras you get with the EX are a huge improvement over the LX. Go ahead and plurge a little :)

radiowave
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by radiowave » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:43 am

fundseeker wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:49 am
radiowave, from my review of Truecar.com prices in our area, the EX is not even $3,000 more than the very basic LX. We have always bought EX Hondas because we do not need too many extras, but I gotta believe the extras you get with the EX are a huge improvement over the LX. Go ahead and plurge a little :)
I agree, would like to buy the LX model, it has everything I need, but . . . it's about getting a comfortable seat for my wife on long trips, so we'll see how this week goes. I may have to settle for a Subaru Outback?!
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dbr
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by dbr » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:48 am

radiowave wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:43 am
fundseeker wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:49 am
radiowave, from my review of Truecar.com prices in our area, the EX is not even $3,000 more than the very basic LX. We have always bought EX Hondas because we do not need too many extras, but I gotta believe the extras you get with the EX are a huge improvement over the LX. Go ahead and plurge a little :)
I agree, would like to buy the LX model, it has everything I need, but . . . it's about getting a comfortable seat for my wife on long trips, so we'll see how this week goes. I may have to settle for a Subaru Outback?!
Which are known to generate complaints about seating comfort especially for the passenger. I am comfortable in the Outback for hours at a time, but the higher trim level with more adjustments on the seat might be recommended. A favorite article of complaint is the overly aggressive lumbar support. You may be able to alleviate that problem by avoiding keeping the seatback too upright. The only way to figure this out is trying out the seats for enough time and adjusting to be sure.

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Soul.in.Progress
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by Soul.in.Progress » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:57 am

We found this website helpful when we were shopping for a new Honda:

www.tellmethebest.com

This time of year, you have leverage for a new 2017. I think most websites say the last two days of the month, you have even more leverage.

When you determine the exact model and trim you want, then use the website above or similar websites to determine your final OTD price. Email the dealer to say that for that price, you’ll put a deposit on credit card over the phone and can close on the deal in the evening or the next day. There are several websites that show email drafts or “the email method.” Bogleheads also has threads on this. They might try to counter offer, but just say that you’re firm on your final price. We did so and I believe we got a very good deal—I wish you the same.

Don’t get any add ons from the dealer at closing, believe me they will try!! Politely but firmly decline.

Good luck!
Start by doing what is necessary; | then do what is possible; | and suddenly you are doing the impossible. | -- Francis of Assisi

CULater
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by CULater » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:24 am

TLC1957 wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:58 am
CULater wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:53 pm
TLC1957 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:31 pm
radiowave wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am
s (2018 CR-Vs should be arriving here in early November)
I hope the 2018 comes out in November looking to buy my first new car. After driving company cars for 36 years where the only decision I had to make was the color, looking forward to a touring model since I plan to keep it for a long time. Good luck in your search.
From googling, it appears the 2018 is unchanged from 2017. Would seem to me a better price could be had on a 2017 about now for basically the same vehicle. Why wait?
The 2017 CRV is a totally new vehicle including engine, trans, chassis etc. I figured they must have had a few bugs to work out, so waiting for 2018.

Is that what a boglehead would do?...
Seems to me that the only difference between the 2018 and the 2017 would be the designation "2018". Cars come rolling off the assembly line continuously, don't they? If you buy a 2017, maybe it rolled off in August and your 2018 rolls off in October. Is the one made in October really going to be "de-bugged" vs. the one made in August? The first 2017 models began to appear in late December, 2016. I would think by August they would have caught an fixed a few bugs. I think mine rolled off in July so was a "later model" 2017. As far as the engine and tranny go, the 1.5 turbo engine was out in the Civic and Honda has been using CVTs for awhile now. My 2002 CRV rolled off in May of 2002 and that was a totally new model with new engine and transmission. Never had a bug that I know of for 15 years unless you count the exploding airbags, which they didn't catch until 2014. Check the website www.carcomplaints.com to see what issues have been reported for the 2017 CRV and if any of them concern you that are likely to be "fixed" in the 2018. I think it will take 3-4 years for serious problems with the engine or tranny to start showing up and being reported as owners put the miles on them.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

CULater
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by CULater » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:19 pm

When buying a new car it's important to distinguish between "model year" and "manufacture year". By law, automakers are allowed to begin selling any given model year in January of the preceding year. For example, you could buy a car manufactured in January of 2016 that is actually a 2017 model year car. That's why you see many new 2018 model year vehicles actually go on sale during 2017.

The Date of Mfr shown on the door jamb shows when the car was actually produced. However, the model year is encoded in the VIN. It is the 10th character. "H" stands for 2017 and "J" stands for 2018. Generally, mechanical parts, interior bits, sensors, software, modules, and more are updated regularly. Major changes such as trim and body panels are updated by model year.

It's probably a good idea to check the VIN if you buy a car manufactured in the latter part of a given calendar model year, just to make sure it isn't actually the next model year; for example, a car manufactured in August of 2017 might in fact be part of the 2018 model year, as shown by a "J" encoded in the VIN, particularly if there are no major visible changes between the two model years.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

TLC1957
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by TLC1957 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:12 am

2018 CRV is now listed on the Honda web site....YAHOO let the search and dealing start. I see a 2018 Touring, 2 wheel drive, in white with black interior in my future :beer

CUlater

Thanks for the info but I searched the Honda dealers within 1000 miles of Pa and could not find a 2017 Touring as noted above.

Thanks

Rashen
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by Rashen » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:55 am

in my experience Honda was not as flexible in negotiating as Toyota.
That's why we went with RAV4 a few years back.

CULater
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by CULater » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:34 am

BTW, I did notice that the passenger seat in my 17 CRV Touring seems less comfortable than the driver's seat but haven't thoroughly investigated. Reason is that the passenger seat has only 4-way adjustments: forward and back, and seatback angle. The driver's seat can also be adjusted for height, leg angle, and has lumbar support adjustment and seems fine to me although I'd also like leg support extension since I'm taller. My guess is that the passenger seat would be a lot less comfortable on long trips especially for a taller or larger passenger. Not a big deal for me but would be for a couple.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

dbr
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by dbr » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:48 am

CULater wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:34 am
BTW, I did notice that the passenger seat in my 17 CRV Touring seems less comfortable than the driver's seat but haven't thoroughly investigated. Reason is that the passenger seat has only 4-way adjustments: forward and back, and seatback angle. The driver's seat can also be adjusted for height, leg angle, and has lumbar support adjustment and seems fine to me although I'd also like leg support extension since I'm taller. My guess is that the passenger seat would be a lot less comfortable on long trips especially for a taller or larger passenger. Not a big deal for me but would be for a couple.
People complain about this problem (passenger seat) in a number of vehicles. But the Touring should offer the highest level of seating option, so that is not good news.

TLC1957
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by TLC1957 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:48 am

Rashen wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:55 am
in my experience Honda was not as flexible in negotiating as Toyota.
That's why we went with RAV4 a few years back.
Yea I guess we are a Honda family currently both of our daughters have a Honda, a Civic and HRV, wife has an Accord. Have always used the email negotiation method and have always felt I got a good deal.

Hoping in the next 30-45 days when 2018 CRV start coming onto dealers lots I can find what I want.

Regarding the passenger seat, my wife is 5'2" hoping the seat will not be a problem we plan a lot of road trips :D

Rashen
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by Rashen » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:20 pm

TLC1957 wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:48 am
Rashen wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:55 am
in my experience Honda was not as flexible in negotiating as Toyota.
That's why we went with RAV4 a few years back.
Yea I guess we are a Honda family currently both of our daughters have a Honda, a Civic and HRV, wife has an Accord. Have always used the email negotiation method and have always felt I got a good deal.

Hoping in the next 30-45 days when 2018 CRV start coming onto dealers lots I can find what I want.

Regarding the passenger seat, my wife is 5'2" hoping the seat will not be a problem we plan a lot of road trips :D
We were a Honda family, now we are a Toyota family :)

Txsman
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Re: Buying 2017 Honda CR-V

Post by Txsman » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:30 pm

Just bought a new Toyota Highlander. I have always been conservative. Never spent more than 25000. Said what the heck. Went all out. Its loaded. Will last at least 20 years. Nice ride.

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