or is this normal?

Yes. It looks like they are expressed as a percent of the amount spent at Applebee's. They should be expressed as a percent of the amount spent at any other restaurant anywhere.
It's because servers get paid 2 bucks an hour. In every other country in the world they get paid properly. I'm surprised how many people are still ignorant to this fact.
Is your issue:
If we're commenting on surprise, I'm surprised how many people don't realise that employers are required to make up the difference to tipped employees to bring them up to the federal minimum wage (and perhaps a higher state or local one) if their hourly rate plus tips falls short of that threshold. Whether that's "proper" pay or not, I couldn't say, but it's clearly not servers being paid two bucks an hour. Isn't that why we see tip jars at counter service locations, so the employers can reduce their labor costs by treating the staff as "tipped"? I'm all for changing these laws, but the food and beverage industry opposesclimber2020 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 pmIt's because servers get paid 2 bucks an hour. In every other country in the world they get paid properly. I'm surprised how many people are still ignorant to this fact.
Either do something to change the law or leave a proper tip. Shafting the low man on the totem pole accomplishes nothing except increase the likelihood that your food will be tampered with the next time you visit.
It's been a while but when I was waiting tables, one table per hour would get me pretty close to minimum wage. So I could have had something like 80% of tables tip nothing and it wouldn't have affected my employer at all.EddyB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:23 pmI'm surprised how many people don't realise that employers are required to make up the difference to tipped employees to bring them up to the federal minimum wage (and perhaps a higher state or local one) if their hourly rate plus tips falls short of that threshold.
climber2020 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 pmShafting the low man on the totem pole accomplishes nothing
So the $2/hr wasn't accurate or relevant? Is that what you're saying? I don't at all think the right way to end the tipping norm is to just stop tipping waitstaff, but if waitstaff at any sort of "fast casual" and up kind of place started only making minimum wage, I think employers would quickly find themselves with a lower quality labor pool, and I expect that would hurt their business.mega317 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:35 pmIt's been a while but when I was waiting tables, one table per hour would get me pretty close to minimum wage. So I could have had something like 80% of tables tip nothing and it wouldn't have affected my employer at all.EddyB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:23 pmI'm surprised how many people don't realise that employers are required to make up the difference to tipped employees to bring them up to the federal minimum wage (and perhaps a higher state or local one) if their hourly rate plus tips falls short of that threshold.
So I 100% agree with this:climber2020 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 pmShafting the low man on the totem pole accomplishes nothing
I typed a few responses to this but then realized I don't understand what you're trying to argue.EddyB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:40 pmSo the $2/hr wasn't accurate or relevant? Is that what you're saying? I don't at all think the right way to end the tipping norm is to just stop tipping waitstaff, but if waitstaff at any sort of "fast casual" and up kind of place started only making minimum wage, I think employers would quickly find themselves with a lower quality labor pool, and I expect that would hurt their business.
Speaking of surprise, I'm surprised some people don't know that in 7 states the minimum wage for servers is the same as the usual minimum wage. This includes the 3 states on the west coast, all of which have minimum wages over $10 per hour, headed to $15 per hour. In these cases, not only do I not tip on tax, I tip less than 15%. When the minimum wage is $15 I plan to tip 10%. Right now I tip around 14%. I've been told it's a livable wage so perhaps I shouldn't tip at all.EddyB wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:23 pmIf we're commenting on surprise, I'm surprised how many people don't realise that employers are required to make up the difference to tipped employees to bring them up to the federal minimum wage (and perhaps a higher state or local one) if their hourly rate plus tips falls short of that threshold. Whether that's "proper" pay or not, I couldn't say, but it's clearly not servers being paid two bucks an hour. Isn't that why we see tip jars are counter service locations, so the employees can reduce their labor costs by treating the staff as "tipped"? I'm all for changing these laws, but the food and beverage industry opposesclimber2020 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 pmIt's because servers get paid 2 bucks an hour. In every other country in the world they get paid properly. I'm surprised how many people are still ignorant to this fact.
Either do something to change the law or leave a proper tip. Shafting the low man on the totem pole accomplishes nothing except increase the likelihood that your food will be tampered with the next time you visit.
it and employers in that business try to convince their employees that any changes to the tipping practice will work against them.
viking112347 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:21 pm2010 article about this topic.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/03 ... s-20100803
The main thing to realize is that all the players benefit from overcharging you except you. If you pay more, they all get a bigger slice. Do you think anyone is going to say no to getting more? Hence, if you're going to be lazy and take someone else's calculation, don't be surprised if they choose to maximize it in their favor.A spokeswoman for MasterCard said don't blame the card companies. She said the recommended tips are either put there by the establishment or by the card processor.
https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/c ... PAYINT_TXTHow We Apply Payments
...
We apply payments and credits at our discretion, including in a manner most favorable or convenient for us.
Well, it's a bit of an issue that so many people can't do a simple math approximation like this in their heads that the restaurant feels compelled to do it for them.
Like a lot of establishments do these days, they have based the suggested tip amount on the total price including tax. This is an age old argument that fires up a lot of emotion. There are no written rules, but the principle of the establishment listing the suggested tip based on the total bill with tax certainly ruffles feathers.
+1. I think the tipping culture in the U.S. makes zero sense, so instead of complaining about it, we just don't eat out. It of course isn't the only reason we don't eat out, but it is certainly a factor.
The state I live in (Minnesota) is one of those seven states that requires employers to pay tipped employees at least the minimum wage. Minnesota's minimum wage for large employers is $9.50 an hour and $7.75 an hour for small employers. The minimum wage will go up to $9.65 and $7.87 for large and small employers respectively on 01/01/2018.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:16 amSpeaking of surprise, I'm surprised some people don't know that in 7 states the minimum wage for servers is the same as the usual minimum wage. This includes the 3 states on the west coast, all of which have minimum wages over $10 per hour, headed to $15 per hour. In these cases, not only do I not tip on tax, I tip less than 15%. When the minimum wage is $15 I plan to tip 10%. Right now I tip around 14%. I've been told it's a livable wage so perhaps I shouldn't tip at all.
It has to be at least $30 per month "customarily and regularly" for the employee to be classified as tipped; at least in my area, I doubt that many counter jars get there. However, wage irregularities and misclassifications are pretty common, so I've no doubt that some employers are doing as you suggest whether the tips meet the standard or not.
What difference would it make to TIP 15% on pre-tax or (1-tax)*15% on after tax? If your range is 10%-15% a 6% tax only moves things around by 1 percentage point or so anyway, and a larger tax by more.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:16 amSpeaking of surprise, I'm surprised some people don't know that in 7 states the minimum wage for servers is the same as the usual minimum wage. This
Excluding my favorite restaurant, I rarely go out to eat. When I do go out to eat, I only tip on the pre-tax amount and it's probably between 10-15%.
I worked at a bagel shop on weekends about 15 years ago. We had a counter tip jar that was split 3 or 4 ways, depending on how many of us worked each day. It's been a long time, but it seems like $30 total over Saturday and Sunday in one weekend was a fairly regular occurrence for us. We were paid better than minimum wage at the time, not considered tipped employees.fposte wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:32 amIt has to be at least $30 per month "customarily and regularly" for the employee to be classified as tipped; at least in my area, I doubt that many counter jars get there. However, wage irregularities and misclassifications are pretty common, so I've no doubt that some employers are doing as you suggest whether the tips meet the standard or not.
Yeah, that's why I said "in my area"--over $160 in tip-jar cash over a single weekend would be pretty surprising here. I've no doubt that in some big cities you could get that.open_circuit wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:47 amI worked at a bagel shop on weekends about 15 years ago. We had a counter tip jar that was split 3 or 4 ways, depending on how many of us worked each day. It's been a long time, but it seems like $30 total over Saturday and Sunday in one weekend was a fairly regular occurrence for us. We were paid better than minimum wage at the time, not considered tipped employees.fposte wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:32 am
It has to be at least $30 per month "customarily and regularly" for the employee to be classified as tipped; at least in my area, I doubt that many counter jars get there. However, wage irregularities and misclassifications are pretty common, so I've no doubt that some employers are doing as you suggest whether the tips meet the standard or not.
I give what I want for tip. Feel sorry for people who can't do the calcs in their head. I can also count back the right change for a purchase.Doom&Gloom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:01 amWhen I first saw pre-calculated tip size suggestions, I was a little bit offended but I quickly got over it.
I have come to appreciate that seeing those suggestions is preferable imo to seeing diners whip out their phones to calculate tip sizes because they are incapable of figuring a tip mentally or they want to calculate a tip to the penny. Neither the need for printed suggestions or the reliance upon a calculator to figure a tip is a good look for the status of the general public.
I'm in a 10% sales tax locale so I double the tax as tip. Easy, just like your aunt did!
Agreed 100%. Tip properly cheapskates.climber2020 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 pmIt's because servers get paid 2 bucks an hour. In every other country in the world they get paid properly. I'm surprised how many people are still ignorant to this fact.
Either do something to change the law or leave a proper tip. Shafting the low man on the totem pole accomplishes nothing except increase the likelihood that your food will be tampered with the next time you visit.
I definitely sometimes tip higher than 20% if I'm in a lower-tier restaurant and the service is superb (and I don't order alcohol).hogfanboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:30 amHas anybody ever considered tipping a flat rate? Sometimes it grinds my teeth a little when I go to a steak house and tipping at 20% gets to be a huge amount vs something like an Applebee’s where the bill is much lower but the staff works just as hard.
Thinking off the top of my head maybe some rule of $5 per guess per hour ( assuming the restaurant it slow in service)
and about tipping in general - it all goes without saying.dbr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:42 amWhat difference would it make to TIP 15% on pre-tax or (1-tax)*15% on after tax? If your range is 10%-15% a 6% tax only moves things around by 1 percentage point or so anyway, and a larger tax by more.letsgobobby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:16 amSpeaking of surprise, I'm surprised some people don't know that in 7 states the minimum wage for servers is the same as the usual minimum wage. This
Excluding my favorite restaurant, I rarely go out to eat. When I do go out to eat, I only tip on the pre-tax amount and it's probably between 10-15%.
I think there is some kind of emotional content to this business of Applebees computing on with-tax that hasn't surfaced in this discussion yet. There is also some emotional content about suggesting tips at all (the OP) that hasn't completely surfaced either.
Of course there is so much variation of feelings and opinions about tipping at all that this thread may be no more than just rehashing that.
Well, most people can't manage basic math, let alone math involving percentages. Can't help but chuckle every time I see someone pull out the calculator app on their smartphone when they're handed their check at a restaurant.
I've wondered this many times myself. In a decade or two, will tipping 50% be standard?CyclingDuo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:15 amSales tax aside....
Remember the days when tipping 10% was standard?
Remember the days when tipping 15% was standard?
Remember the days when tipping 20% was standard?
madsinger wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:01 pmMy wife and I went to a pizza place for dinner last weekend. We ordered a small pizza to split. They brought out complimentary rolls and olive oil for dipping. We drink water with our meals. We had a nice meal, nice ambiance, and a chance to talk without distraction for an hour. Our bill was $11.99 before tax, $12.89 after. The waiter took our order, brought us rolls, brought our drinks, refilled our water glasses, (brought extra rolls), brought the bill, charged the card. And did not interrupt our conversation...while we tied up a table for an hour. What should the tip be?
$1.20 says the 10% tipper before tax.
$2.58 says the 20% tipper after tax.
I left $5.
I feel like it's a bargain luxury.
-Brad.
But of course there is no set % for tipping excepting maybe a place that imposes a gratuity on large groups and that sort of thing. Somebody printing some numbers on a receipt means nothing. I agree that I tend to think about the dollar amount absolutely as much as about the %.bengal22 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:12 pmmadsinger wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:01 pmMy wife and I went to a pizza place for dinner last weekend. We ordered a small pizza to split. They brought out complimentary rolls and olive oil for dipping. We drink water with our meals. We had a nice meal, nice ambiance, and a chance to talk without distraction for an hour. Our bill was $11.99 before tax, $12.89 after. The waiter took our order, brought us rolls, brought our drinks, refilled our water glasses, (brought extra rolls), brought the bill, charged the card. And did not interrupt our conversation...while we tied up a table for an hour. What should the tip be?
$1.20 says the 10% tipper before tax.
$2.58 says the 20% tipper after tax.
I left $5.
I feel like it's a bargain luxury.
-Brad.
This exemplifies one of my concerns with a set % for tipping. The waitress at the local diner works just as hard as the waitress at the high end steak or farm to table restaurants. I really think 20% is not enough for the waitress at a Bob Evans that is efficient, friendly, and not too present. However, I think a $30 dollar tip for an acceptable server is overpriced. I try to take that into consideration when tipping.
If I tie up a server's table socializing with friends after the meal is finished, I always tip very generously if other customers could have been seated there. If the place is dead, I may tip a little above normal. I would not try to persuade others to do the same; it is just what I feel is right.madsinger wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:01 pmMy wife and I went to a pizza place for dinner last weekend. We ordered a small pizza to split. They brought out complimentary rolls and olive oil for dipping. We drink water with our meals. We had a nice meal, nice ambiance, and a chance to talk without distraction for an hour. Our bill was $11.99 before tax, $12.89 after. The waiter took our order, brought us rolls, brought our drinks, refilled our water glasses, (brought extra rolls), brought the bill, charged the card. And did not interrupt our conversation...while we tied up a table for an hour. What should the tip be?
$1.20 says the 10% tipper before tax.
$2.58 says the 20% tipper after tax.
I left $5.
I feel like it's a bargain luxury.
-Brad.