To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

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HopeToGolf
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by HopeToGolf » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:43 am
Had an opportunity to sit in and drive it around a parking lot.
How? Courtesy of a friend or a family or a colleague? In our area, I can not even see that car in the show room let alone sit in it. Test driving is out of question.
Top Gear gave the Model 3 a great review...

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/tesla/model-3
That is fake TopGear; TopGear without Jeremy is NOT TopGear; I am sure Jeremy will HATE model 3 :twisted: I can justsee him ripping the Model 3 to shreds in his review and intentionally running out of juice during his test drive. It is guaranteed.

Seriously though, he was little humbled by his test drive of X but not much.
Regarding the test drive, I participate in a Tesla forum. I private messaged a member (we live in the same state) with a question on his Model 3 and he offered to meet me to show me the car. I met him in the parking lot of a supermarket in a nearby town where I had an engagement earlier that day.

Regarding seeing the car, the upside to where I live I can easily get to NYC to see it and now Cherry Hill, NJ also has one in stock. The forum member saved me probably 4 hours since I planned to go to NYC and that would have been a half-day activity. The downside to where I live is it is a HCOL so I pay for privileges like this.

No comment re Top Gear being real or fake. I’m not close enough to its history to comment.

If the Model 3 is anything like the S and X, Tesla will have another hit on their hands with most owners loving their cars and vowing to staying with EVs. All that despite a ton of noise by detractors of the company and the cars themselves.

These are cars that compete for the $$$ of luxury car buyers. I think there is going to be a lot of noise if people start to stretch their budgets to buy these vehicles. These folks are better off buying Bolts or hybrids. One place Elon was wrong is, IMO, a $35K car is not a mass market car.

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kenyan
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by kenyan » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 am

HopeToGolf wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm

These are cars that compete for the $$$ of luxury car buyers. I think there is going to be a lot of noise if people start to stretch their budgets to buy these vehicles. These folks are better off buying Bolts or hybrids. One place Elon was wrong is, IMO, a $35K car is not a mass market car.
This is really the essence of why I canceled my reservation - the car is purported to be mass market, but it really was stretching me into a lower end luxury purchase. I'm sure I probably would've been happy with the car, but not happy with my bank accounts, especially since I've become more focused upon retirement (cheaper). There were probably a lot of people seduced by the combination of "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." That vehicle will never exist, at least not in the Model 3 form.

The closest approximation will be "Tesla, paid supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, no autopilot, TBD roof, non-premium interior for $36k after reduced tax credit plus purchase fees and taxes."

Is that a nice car? Likely so. Is that a mass market car? Nope.
Retirement investing is a marathon.

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wrongfunds
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by wrongfunds » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:27 pm

"Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit."
I have not priced it but I have a feeling that even a Toyota Corolla is going to push at $25K price. The above expectation seems to be little bit off.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:00 pm

kenyan wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 am
HopeToGolf wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm

These are cars that compete for the $$$ of luxury car buyers. I think there is going to be a lot of noise if people start to stretch their budgets to buy these vehicles. These folks are better off buying Bolts or hybrids. One place Elon was wrong is, IMO, a $35K car is not a mass market car.
This is really the essence of why I canceled my reservation - the car is purported to be mass market, but it really was stretching me into a lower end luxury purchase. I'm sure I probably would've been happy with the car, but not happy with my bank accounts, especially since I've become more focused upon retirement (cheaper). There were probably a lot of people seduced by the combination of "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." That vehicle will never exist, at least not in the Model 3 form.

The closest approximation will be "Tesla, paid supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, no autopilot, TBD roof, non-premium interior for $36k after reduced tax credit plus purchase fees and taxes."

Is that a nice car? Likely so. Is that a mass market car? Nope.
While I completely agree with what you posted, we should be fair and mention that Tesla never advertised "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." Many, many, many people walked away with that thought, but it was based on many of their own assumptions vs. what Tesla said. "Tesla, supercharging-capable, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot-capable, a roof, etc for starting at $35k" is what they advertised. They never said supercharging usage or autopilot (except for safety features such as emergency braking) would be included at no extra cost. They also never quoted their pricing with the tax credit, while GM did with the Bolt. While I get that and can totally see how they got caught up in walking away with that impression, there was nothing deceptive in Tesla in how they spoke about the Model 3 and thus, it is hard to feel sorrow for those who had the feeling they would get such a car for $27.5k.

Now, could Tesla have been explicit in saying the base model wouldn't have X or Y or Z, sure. But I don't fault Tesla for what the info they did released about the Model 3 vs. what they didn't release.

As for the delivery fee, upthread I asked if any new car is sold w/o the fee? So far, it doesn't sound like it. Now some people have negotiated with the dealers to "eat" that cost, but Tesla doesn't negotiate, so I have always expected such a fee.

niceguy7376
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by niceguy7376 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm

One more question for existing owners of any pure EV.

I had traveled for work Mon-Thu by flights and left my car in airport parking lots. What is the degradation of battery power that was noticed for EV vehicles in such scenarios (No charge, no driving for 4 days)?

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:14 pm

niceguy7376 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm
One more question for existing owners of any pure EV.

I had traveled for work Mon-Thu by flights and left my car in airport parking lots. What is the degradation of battery power that was noticed for EV vehicles in such scenarios (No charge, no driving for 4 days)?
In my experience, minimal for 4 days. I left mine in an unheated garage in freezing weather for a week, and lost I think 5%.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Nate79
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Nate79 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:23 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:27 pm
"Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit."
I have not priced it but I have a feeling that even a Toyota Corolla is going to push at $25K price. The above expectation seems to be little bit off.
According to Trucar average price for mid level 2018 Corolla is ~$20k.

madbrain
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:53 pm

HopeToGolf wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm
One place Elon was wrong is, IMO, a $35K car is not a mass market car.
The average transaction price for new cars is over $35,000, actually, according to KBB .
https://mediaroom.kbb.com/average-new-c ... -blue-book .
So, IMO, a $35K car is very much a mass market car nowadays.

The problem is that Tesla has not delivered any $35K car so far.

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kenyan
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by kenyan » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:22 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:00 pm

While I completely agree with what you posted, we should be fair and mention that Tesla never advertised "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." Many, many, many people walked away with that thought, but it was based on many of their own assumptions vs. what Tesla said.
I agree. I definitely had conversations with a friend of mine (who is still on the list, but waffling) who made those assumptions, but Tesla didn't ever explicitly state those things.
Retirement investing is a marathon.

Longdog
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Longdog » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:44 pm

niceguy7376 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm
One more question for existing owners of any pure EV.

I had traveled for work Mon-Thu by flights and left my car in airport parking lots. What is the degradation of battery power that was noticed for EV vehicles in such scenarios (No charge, no driving for 4 days)?
Owners on the Model 3 forum are reporting about 4 miles of vampire drain per day if the car is in deep sleep and you don’t open the app frequently to check its current range, which wakes it up and increases the drain.
Steve

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just frank
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by just frank » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:07 pm

niceguy7376 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm
One more question for existing owners of any pure EV.

I had traveled for work Mon-Thu by flights and left my car in airport parking lots. What is the degradation of battery power that was noticed for EV vehicles in such scenarios (No charge, no driving for 4 days)?
We left our 2013 LEAF for a month once on vacation and it lost maybe 15% of battery at neutral temps.

On the Bolt, not too far below freezing you are ok unplugged for weeks. In arctic weather (sustained <0°F), they say to leave it plugged in if you are leaving it longer than a day or two.

It seems that Tesla have higher parasitic losses than other EVs.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:32 pm

just frank wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:07 pm
niceguy7376 wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:04 pm
One more question for existing owners of any pure EV.

I had traveled for work Mon-Thu by flights and left my car in airport parking lots. What is the degradation of battery power that was noticed for EV vehicles in such scenarios (No charge, no driving for 4 days)?
We left our 2013 LEAF for a month once on vacation and it lost maybe 15% of battery at neutral temps.

On the Bolt, not too far below freezing you are ok unplugged for weeks. In arctic weather (sustained <0°F), they say to leave it plugged in if you are leaving it longer than a day or two.

It seems that Tesla have higher parasitic losses than other EVs.
This is consistent with my experience as well. Leaving my car unplugged while I was traveling in Europe, I had the following losses according to my data logger:
7/23 - 215 miles of range / 82% state of charge
8/10 - 169 miles of range / 66% state of charge

So 46 mile / 16% loss over 19 days, or about 2.4 miles / 0.85 % loss.

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Leif
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:35 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:32 pm
This is consistent with my experience as well. Leaving my car unplugged while I was traveling in Europe, I had the following losses according to my data logger:
7/23 - 215 miles of range / 82% state of charge
8/10 - 169 miles of range / 66% state of charge

So 46 mile / 16% loss over 19 days, or about 2.4 miles / 0.85 % loss.
About the same on my Model S 90D. I noticed in the first day or two the drain is higher and then it seems to lessen. I guess it goes into a deeper sleep with less draw.

HopeToGolf
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by HopeToGolf » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:07 am

madbrain wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:53 pm
HopeToGolf wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm
One place Elon was wrong is, IMO, a $35K car is not a mass market car.
The average transaction price for new cars is over $35,000, actually, according to KBB .
https://mediaroom.kbb.com/average-new-c ... -blue-book .
So, IMO, a $35K car is very much a mass market car nowadays.

The problem is that Tesla has not delivered any $35K car so far.
Interesting data. $35k is an average that includes a number of very expensive vehicles in the calculation. Bringing it back to Bogleheads and our approach to finances vs. the “mass market,” I am a little surprised by this since the median income in the US is in the $55k-$60K range. Spending $35k on a car when you make $60k is a bit much.

That said, anecdotally speaking, as I go to stores and look around my MegaCorp’s parking lot, I may see a $35K average but I think most of the vehicles cost less than that. The BMW i8, 3 & 5 series, Raptors, Macans, Q5s, Q7s, 911s, A4s, Cherokees, etc. seem to bring up the average.

Until now I thought of mass market vehicle being a car that is in the top 5-10 of vehicles sold. My thought is a $35k car cannot make that list, I guess time will tell. When expensive trucks are the best selling vehicles in the country, it humbles me again and proves I know nothing about the behavior of the average American. I’ll now go back to my Boglehead bubble.

To some degree this is moot until Tesla delivers that first $35k car (late 2018/early 2019).

madbrain
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:11 am

HopeToGolf wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:07 am
Interesting data. $35k is an average that includes a number of very expensive vehicles in the calculation. Bringing it back to Bogleheads and our approach to finances vs. the “mass market,” I am a little surprised by this since the median income in the US is in the $55k-$60K range. Spending $35k on a car when you make $60k is a bit much.
Cars can last a long time nowadays, so IMO it isn't especially surprising. If one is keeping the car 10+ years, then spending half annual income on a new vehicle may in fact not be unreasonable, as that's only about 6% of gross income per year on car payment/depreciation.
That said, anecdotally speaking, as I go to stores and look around my MegaCorp’s parking lot, I may see a $35K average but I think most of the vehicles cost less than that. The BMW i8, 3 & 5 series, Raptors, Macans, Q5s, Q7s, 911s, A4s, Cherokees, etc. seem to bring up the average.
Here are are top 20 models by sales :
http://www.businessinsider.com/best-sel ... 016-2017-1

While some start as low as $17K for the cheapest base models with manual transmission, there is still a very wide range of options and trims that could explain the much higher average transaction price.

And you are right that a few expensive cars can skew the average. It would be interesting to know the median transaction price.

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just frank
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by just frank » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:43 am

Its important to remember, re the '$35k Tesla' is that the falling price of batteries means that pure EVS (with long range) will eventually become cheaper than their gasoline counterparts.

There will eventually be a really compelling $25k Tesla. That is the endgame. The 3 is just a big hairy step on the way to that.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:23 am

just frank wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:43 am
Its important to remember, re the '$35k Tesla' is that the falling price of batteries means that pure EVS (with long range) will eventually become cheaper than their gasoline counterparts.

There will eventually be a really compelling $25k Tesla. That is the endgame. The 3 is just a big hairy step on the way to that.
While I agree with this statement in general, I don't think we will be seeing it, or at least anytime soon. Elon has said he wants to make a $25k Tesla. However, even if battery prices come down quickly enough, I don't Tesla can afford to make a car like that until it is a well established auto brand vs. its current setup where it has high recognition and likely will be fine, but if the Model 3 flops, it will break the company.

Now don't let this mean that I think the company is "on the verge of bankruptcy" like some pundits say. I don't feel that way. But I do feel that Tesla has put so much into building up to the Model 3 that they cannot continue onto a lower cost vehicle until they show a consistent profit and scale to the industry. I think much of the investor patience goes down to "if it weren't for the drive to build the Model 3 profitably long-term, Tesla could be profitable focusing on the S and X." I don't think investors will carry Tesla through a lower price point without Tesla providing consistent profitability.

Now, focus on a more expensive, higher profit vehicle, that is a different discussion.

roflwaffle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by roflwaffle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:23 am
just frank wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:43 am
Its important to remember, re the '$35k Tesla' is that the falling price of batteries means that pure EVS (with long range) will eventually become cheaper than their gasoline counterparts.

There will eventually be a really compelling $25k Tesla. That is the endgame. The 3 is just a big hairy step on the way to that.
While I agree with this statement in general, I don't think we will be seeing it, or at least anytime soon. Elon has said he wants to make a $25k Tesla. However, even if battery prices come down quickly enough, I don't Tesla can afford to make a car like that until it is a well established auto brand vs. its current setup where it has high recognition and likely will be fine, but if the Model 3 flops, it will break the company.

Now don't let this mean that I think the company is "on the verge of bankruptcy" like some pundits say. I don't feel that way. But I do feel that Tesla has put so much into building up to the Model 3 that they cannot continue onto a lower cost vehicle until they show a consistent profit and scale to the industry. I think much of the investor patience goes down to "if it weren't for the drive to build the Model 3 profitably long-term, Tesla could be profitable focusing on the S and X." I don't think investors will carry Tesla through a lower price point without Tesla providing consistent profitability.

Now, focus on a more expensive, higher profit vehicle, that is a different discussion.
I think they need to provide consistent positive margins on the 3, like they have on the S and X, but I don't think the company as a whole needs to consistently show profitability. I think they need a couple quarters of profitability, like they did with the S, but after that they'll probably want to continue to grow like they have in the past. The margins on their products and growth in revenue is what supports their valuation IMO.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:03 am

roflwaffle wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 am
I think they need to provide consistent positive margins on the 3, like they have on the S and X, but I don't think the company as a whole needs to consistently show profitability. I think they need a couple quarters of profitability, like they did with the S, but after that they'll probably want to continue to grow like they have in the past. The margins on their products and growth in revenue is what supports their valuation IMO.
Sorry, I forgot one complete part of my prior response.

By the time Tesla shows consistent profitability (even if only on the Model lines vs. overall), the other makes may have finally spun up their EVs for "real" demand beyond compliance + small run production. If the Fed tax credit is still around in the industry, their $7,500 competitive advantage would make them better positioned for a $25k vehicle than Tesla since Tesla would surely be past the phaseout of the credit by then. At that low price point, $7.5k would make a huge difference in affordability, both to the consumer and the manufacturer.

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DanMahowny
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by DanMahowny » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:55 am

kenyan wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 am
There were probably a lot of people seduced by the combination of "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." That vehicle will never exist, at least not in the Model 3 form.
This is why I cancelled my reservation.

Musk promised something that doesn't exist. He does that a lot.

Used the $30,000 I had set aside for the car, and shorted the stock instead.

Both decisions were wise.

But I WAS impressed by the Model 3 I saw in the parking lot at the golf course last week.
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TravelGeek
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:06 pm

kenyan wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 am
There were probably a lot of people seduced by the combination of "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." That vehicle will never exist, at least not in the Model 3 form.
I submitted my reservation with the hope of getting a roughly $35k Tesla vehicle in time for the $7500 tax credit to still be effective. I didn't even know about or look for a panoramic glass roof and having seen it in person now, I don't really care about that. I knew that I wouldn't get free super-charging and was okay with that. I didn't expect free autopilot and wouldn't buy it. So really I was looking for a reasonably priced EV. The 2018 Nissan LEAF is likely going to be it for me. Not a Tesla, but I am okay with that. It seems to meet my transportation needs ;)

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:15 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:55 am
kenyan wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 am
There were probably a lot of people seduced by the combination of "Tesla, free supercharging, fast, 200+ miles, autopilot, panoramic glass roof, etc for $27.5k after tax credit." That vehicle will never exist, at least not in the Model 3 form.
This is why I cancelled my reservation.

Musk promised something that doesn't exist.
He does that a lot.

Used the $30,000 I had set aside for the car, and shorted the stock instead.

Both decisions were wise.

But I WAS impressed by the Model 3 I saw in the parking lot at the golf course last week.
Um, no. Musk did not promise a $27.5k Tesla with free supercharging, autopilot, and a panoramic glass roof. It's fine that you cancelled your reservation b/c that's what you want and wouldn't get, but don't go thinking he promised that.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by EHEngineer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm

4nursebee wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:21 pm
EHEngineer wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:59 pm
10 days ago I got my M3 configuration invitation. However, tesla's reaction to the deadly March autopilot MX crash has dampened my enthusiasm and I'm wondering what yall think about this.

I was very dissapointed in their response. I wanted a response similar to the deadly autopilot MS crash in FL in 2015. My paraphrasing of that: " We're sorry this happened. We know what happened. We're going to fix it." In contrast, for this 2018 crash they released a limited set of facts that point to driver failure to act. I don't doubt those facts. But they said nothing about why autopilot steered directly into a large steel/concrete barrier. No recognition of failure. promise to improve. No "We're sorry. We know what happened and we will fix it." Just blame on the driver. This has really shaken my faith in their focus on safety. What do yall think? Buy the car? buy it without AP? Buy something else? My own priority is safety, not luxury or sportyness. I would never have considered a tesla (or any luxury car) unless it has clear safety advantages over the more middle market brands.
I am not concerned about the company response:
1. It is not a self driving car.
2. The car did warn the guy, he ignored it.
3. He knew the limitations, including right there, and ignored them.
4. THIS IS THE BIG ONE: I watched the video of someone else taking the same path and nearly wrecking. To my eyes, the system was following the dominant painted line.

Video/news report shows what I describe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02H2xGIecc
After thinking about this a few days, I my thoughts are becoming more clear. I am in the market for a self driving car, not a luxury car. I think I was overestimating Tesla's autonomy based on their website. Just now I logged in to my Model 3 Configurator and here's what is shows:
Image
that's pretty clear and unambiguous.

No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

I haven't cancelled my reservation. For now I'm sitting on it. I will admit that I was really really looking forward to owning an TM3, and a big part of me still wants one even without AP.
Or, you can ... decline to let me, a stranger on the Internet, egg you on to an exercise in time-wasting, and you could say "I'm probably OK and I don't care about it that much." -Nisiprius

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:07 pm

EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
that's pretty clear and unambiguous.

No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

I haven't cancelled my reservation. For now I'm sitting on it. I will admit that I was really really looking forward to owning an TM3, and a big part of me still wants one even without AP.
Please note that you are looking a summary of Autopilot there. From page 93 of the manual...
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... _en_us.pdf
Tesla Model S Owners Manual Page 93 wrote: If driving 29 mph (46 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h).
So while we are likely still to hear more about what happened in that specific Model X's case, AEB would not have caused the MX to stop.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by EHEngineer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:09 pm

emphasis added
BrandonBogle wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:07 pm
EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
that's pretty clear and unambiguous.

No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

I haven't cancelled my reservation. For now I'm sitting on it. I will admit that I was really really looking forward to owning an TM3, and a big part of me still wants one even without AP.

Please note that you are looking a summary of Autopilot there
. From page 93 of the manual...
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... _en_us.pdf
Tesla Model S Owners Manual Page 93 wrote: If driving 29 mph (46 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h).
So while we are likely still to hear more about what happened in that specific Model X's case, AEB would not have caused the MX to stop.
Tesla didn't note that. They didn't put a link to the manual. Didn't even bother to put an asterisk. That's misleading at best.
Or, you can ... decline to let me, a stranger on the Internet, egg you on to an exercise in time-wasting, and you could say "I'm probably OK and I don't care about it that much." -Nisiprius

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:19 pm

EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:09 pm
Tesla didn't note that. They didn't put a link to the manual. Didn't even bother to put an asterisk. That's misleading at best.
Agree. And even if they did, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect drivers to know every detail of the Autopilot implementation and recall them at every instant while driving. This seems to be a case where the good is the enemy of the perfect, ie. partial self-driving implementations may be more dangerous than none at all.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by just frank » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:00 am

EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:09 pm
that's pretty clear and unambiguous.

No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

------------------

Tesla didn't note that. They didn't put a link to the manual. Didn't even bother to put an asterisk. That's misleading at best.
Agreed. Based on DIY tests by other X owners, there is something in that offramp that 'sucks' AP steering directly into the barrier. And at the same time, if Emergency Braking had taken the speed down to 30 mph the guy would still be alive after the crash.

Tesla's lack of explanation, or admission that there is a clear 'glitch' in AP is pretty damning and dishonest, IMO. The NTSB firing them from the investigation also reinforces that.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by roflwaffle » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:41 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:03 am
roflwaffle wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 am
I think they need to provide consistent positive margins on the 3, like they have on the S and X, but I don't think the company as a whole needs to consistently show profitability. I think they need a couple quarters of profitability, like they did with the S, but after that they'll probably want to continue to grow like they have in the past. The margins on their products and growth in revenue is what supports their valuation IMO.
Sorry, I forgot one complete part of my prior response.

By the time Tesla shows consistent profitability (even if only on the Model lines vs. overall), the other makes may have finally spun up their EVs for "real" demand beyond compliance + small run production. If the Fed tax credit is still around in the industry, their $7,500 competitive advantage would make them better positioned for a $25k vehicle than Tesla since Tesla would surely be past the phaseout of the credit by then. At that low price point, $7.5k would make a huge difference in affordability, both to the consumer and the manufacturer.
Other manufacturers might have an advantage if they delay large scale EV production. At the same time, Tesla/Panasonic have a pretty big lead in battery production. As of February, they're putting more batteries in the Model S/3/X than every other manufacturer is putting in their EVs and PHEVs combined in the US. While they have had problems with production so far, what really matters IMO is what rates they can sustain once they hit their 200,000 US sale and the tax credit starts to phase out.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by roflwaffle » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:57 am

EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:09 pm
emphasis added
BrandonBogle wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:07 pm
EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
that's pretty clear and unambiguous.

No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

I haven't cancelled my reservation. For now I'm sitting on it. I will admit that I was really really looking forward to owning an TM3, and a big part of me still wants one even without AP.

Please note that you are looking a summary of Autopilot there
. From page 93 of the manual...
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... _en_us.pdf
Tesla Model S Owners Manual Page 93 wrote: If driving 29 mph (46 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h).
So while we are likely still to hear more about what happened in that specific Model X's case, AEB would not have caused the MX to stop.
Tesla didn't note that. They didn't put a link to the manual. Didn't even bother to put an asterisk. That's misleading at best.
That's true. Having positive/limited descriptions of products is more or less universal IME. It'd be nice if all products had to come with a list of limitations/warnings/dangers/etc in bold before any other information about them, but I doubt I'll see that anytime soon.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by HomerJ » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:40 pm

Looks like you probably shouldn't pay $3000 for the Auto-pilot feature

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/te ... 18-months/
And since June 2016, Elon Musk has been predicting that full self-driving capabilities would be available within the next two years.

But nearly two years after Musk's prediction, Tesla doesn't seem to be close to delivering full self-driving capabilities to customers who paid for the feature. And there's a real question whether it's even possible to deliver full self-driving capabilities with the hardware Tesla has shipped since 2016.

Every other major company working on fully self-driving technology is using lidar as a key part of its sensor suite. Musk has repeatedly dismissed lidar as a "crutch," but it seems likely companies like Waymo and GM know what they're doing. Tesla's cars have fewer hardware redundancies than Waymo's and GM's cars, raising potential safety concerns if key components fail. And it's not known if the Nvidia processors on current Tesla cars are even powerful enough for full self-driving hardware.
I thought this was very interesting... Instead of slowing making a consumer car sold everywhere more and more capable of auto-pilot, Waymo (Google) starts with a fully autonomous car in one city and learns from that.
Indeed, Google—now Waymo—concluded years ago that the evolutionary approach Tesla is currently pursuing didn't make sense. Engineers observed that test drivers were too quick to trust early versions of its self-driving technology even when they were explicitly told to keep their hands on the wheel and their eyes on the road. So Google scrapped plans to market a driver-assistance technology and instead focused on building fully self-driving cars where a customer would never have to touch the wheel.

Waymo has focused on building an autonomous taxi service because that allows the company to roll its service out gradually, city by city. Waymo plans to start in Phoenix, where there are pristine roads and perfect weather 99 percent of the time. Over time, as its software becomes more capable, it will expand service to areas with more challenging situations—like snow or high-density urban environments. This strategy means that Waymo can add or replace sensors and other hardware to its cars as it learns what's required for full self-driving capabilities.
This matches what madbrain said above.
madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:19 pm
This seems to be a case where the good is the enemy of the perfect, ie. partial self-driving implementations may be more dangerous than none at all.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:44 pm

Agree, HomerJ.

I think this trial is on the right track:

https://qz.com/1178706/the-worlds-large ... ing-taxis/

Waymo’s cute little (and slow) custom vehicles would seem perfect as a kind of self-driving golf-cart-sized shuttle service for retirement communities.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:34 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:40 pm
Looks like you probably shouldn't pay $3000 for the Auto-pilot feature
As a person that paid $3,000 I agree. Wait until the feature is ready (if ever). Otherwise you are buying vaporware. If it become available you can consider adding it. I wish I had done that.
Last edited by Leif on Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:50 pm

EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

I haven't cancelled my reservation. For now I'm sitting on it. I will admit that I was really really looking forward to owning an TM3, and a big part of me still wants one even without AP.
If you drive without paying attention you are taking a terrible risk. We don't know the details of the crash, but emergency braking slows the car down and does not prevent a crash. As for the death, that may be due to a compromised crash barrier.

The Tesla Model 3 is a great car from all I've read. But, I would not recommend AP. If you must have AP then you must pay attention to your driving.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by jdb » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:14 pm

Leif wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:50 pm
EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 pm
No matter what the autosteer disclaimer says, that tesla MX didn't do what the website claims it would do. And that guy died.

I haven't cancelled my reservation. For now I'm sitting on it. I will admit that I was really really looking forward to owning an TM3, and a big part of me still wants one even without AP.
If you drive without paying attention you are taking a terrible risk. We don't know the details of the crash, but emergency braking slows the car down and does not prevent a crash. As for the death, that may be due to a compromised crash barrier.

The Tesla Model 3 is a great car from all I've read. But, I would not recommend AP. If you must have AP then you must pay attention to your driving.
Agree with everything but the recommendation. I love AP and use all the time except for the autosteer. I believe that human driver needs to have hands on steering wheel at all times and in control, as the Tesla manual states. But more than happy to have Tesla do all the other driving for me including watching with sensor to slow down for crazy drivers who cut in front without signaling or stop suddenly without reason etc. Good luck.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:57 pm

jdb wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:14 pm
Agree with everything but the recommendation. I love AP and use all the time except for the autosteer. I believe that human driver needs to have hands on steering wheel at all times and in control, as the Tesla manual states. But more than happy to have Tesla do all the other driving for me including watching with sensor to slow down for crazy drivers who cut in front without signaling or stop suddenly without reason etc. Good luck.
The only AP feature I really use with any frequency is the adaptive cruise control. I agree that is nice. But worth $5,000? I don't think so. At least not for me.

As far as cutting in front, I do have a AP complaint on that. It makes me nervous that AP does not slow down, in my experience, when a driver cuts in front of me until the driver has almost completely moved over into my lane. If I'm doing the driving as soon as someone starts to cut in front of me I slow down to establish a safe following distance. I don't wait for that driver to move completely into my lane.

And as for emergency braking, that is standard on the Tesla regardless if you have AP or not.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:27 pm

I was there as two more friends took Model 3 deliveries today. Seeing them regularly on the highways now. The fitment and quality have continued to improve since January and the VINs have jumped tremendously. Once Tesla sustains their higher production rates and gets through much of this backlog, it should be very interesting how the market reacts. I have to admit, knowing Tesla now for at least three years, I honestly didn't expect them to have actually ramped up as much as they have and the 3 to have so much going for it vs. an S or X. That said, I still feel that Elon shot Tesla in the foot by not tempering expectations. Hopefully that only causes some heartburn vs. an ulcer! :)

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:11 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:27 pm
I have to admit, knowing Tesla now for at least three years, I honestly didn't expect them to have actually ramped up as much as they have and the 3 to have so much going for it vs. an S or X.
Having a half million backlog does have the effect of giving them some encouragement. Although they are behind the ramp they planned, I agree it is impressive for a relatively new car company. I am concerned with what happens when the reduction/loss of the federal rebate comes into play.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Longdog » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:15 am

madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:19 pm
EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:09 pm
Tesla didn't note that. They didn't put a link to the manual. Didn't even bother to put an asterisk. That's misleading at best.
Agree. And even if they did, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect drivers to know every detail of the Autopilot implementation and recall them at every instant while driving. This seems to be a case where the good is the enemy of the perfect, ie. partial self-driving implementations may be more dangerous than none at all.
I agree that drivers can't be expected to know every nuanced detail of autopilot. However, I think the expression is "don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect" and it means that when searching for a solution to a problem, don't get so bogged down with finding a solution that's perfect in every way when there is a solution that's still good, possibly cheaper or less expensive, but has its flaws. So, don't let the need for a perfect self-driving car prevent something that's good but falls a little short of that perfection from getting out there. This is the opposite conclusion to what you wrote.

Nonetheless, if I take delivery of a Model 3 in the near future, I will not be ordering autopilot since the car is FUN to drive and as a driver, you have to pay attention to the road in all situations anyway, so other than the gee-whiz factor of auto steer and auto lane change, I don't think it's worth $5,000 plus an additional $3,000 for non-existent full self-drive. I'd rather pay that much money for AWD since that's a hardware option that cannot be retrofitted, and there is an option to add autopilot after purchase for an additional fee.
Steve

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:37 am

Longdog wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:15 am
I think the expression is "don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect" and it means that when searching for a solution to a problem, don't get so bogged down with finding a solution that's perfect in every way when there is a solution that's still good, possibly cheaper or less expensive, but has its flaws. So, don't let the need for a perfect self-driving car prevent something that's good but falls a little short of that perfection from getting out there. This is the opposite conclusion to what you wrote.
I generally like (and follow) that principle/expression at work, but then the software I build isn’t going to potentially cause a car tow plow into a pedestrian or median freeway divider if it has flaws. (I have always been glad that my software isn’t used in airplane autopilots or nuclear power plant control systems)

There are flaws/limitations that would acceptable and others that simply aren’t. E.g., I know and accept that my Forester’s EyeSight cameras have problems when facing straight into glaring sunlight at the end of the day. It turns itself off if in use and notifies me to take over. I can deal with that.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by FoolStreet » Tue May 01, 2018 7:02 pm

FoolStreet wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:59 am
Longdog wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:38 am
Of all the criticisms of the Model 3 that are regularly written about (as well as the many praises) the one area I’ve only seen praised is the way it drives. It was meant to be competitive with the Audi A4 and BMW 3 series, both of which are best in class rides. Based on professional as well as amateur reviews, I have every reason to believe it achieved that goal from a driving perspective.
In fact, the Model 3 outsold the A4 in the first quarter of 2018. It is the real deal if you are in the market for that type of car. I also like the Red. Red on white interior looks stunning. Blue on white, too.

Tech CU seems to have a 1.75 or 1.99 financing rate available.

I think for us it will come down to when our current BMW needs its next 3k repair, then see if we can get the 3 AWD then. Otherwise, we could even wait for the Model Y in 2020.

I love the availability of the supercharger network for road trips.

I saw this Google Spreadsheet on the interwebs and thought I would share. This is a fairly comprehensive list of best interest rates for financing your Tesla, sorted by rate and/or payment.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... w/htmlview

Most Credit Unions have a backdoor way of joining, such as the $5 donation to a non-profit, etc.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by EHEngineer » Thu May 03, 2018 12:02 am

Longdog wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:15 am
madbrain wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:19 pm
EHEngineer wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:09 pm
Tesla didn't note that. They didn't put a link to the manual. Didn't even bother to put an asterisk. That's misleading at best.
Agree. And even if they did, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect drivers to know every detail of the Autopilot implementation and recall them at every instant while driving. This seems to be a case where the good is the enemy of the perfect, ie. partial self-driving implementations may be more dangerous than none at all.
I agree that drivers can't be expected to know every nuanced detail of autopilot. However, I think the expression is "don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect" and it means that when searching for a solution to a problem, don't get so bogged down with finding a solution that's perfect in every way when there is a solution that's still good, possibly cheaper or less expensive, but has its flaws. So, don't let the need for a perfect self-driving car prevent something that's good but falls a little short of that perfection from getting out there. This is the opposite conclusion to what you wrote.

Nonetheless, if I take delivery of a Model 3 in the near future, I will not be ordering autopilot since the car is FUN to drive and as a driver, you have to pay attention to the road in all situations anyway, so other than the gee-whiz factor of auto steer and auto lane change, I don't think it's worth $5,000 plus an additional $3,000 for non-existent full self-drive. I'd rather pay that much money for AWD since that's a hardware option that cannot be retrofitted, and there is an option to add autopilot after purchase for an additional fee.
Thanks to those who commented on my concerns.
I also agree with the expression "don't let the good be the enemy of the the perfect." However, based on a short MS test drive and dozens of AP youtube videos, I do not believe AP would be good for me. I believe my attention and reaction time will be better if I'm always in control rather than waiting to take over in the event of an impending catastrophe. AP likely to lull me to inattention, hence not "good." YMMV.
Or, you can ... decline to let me, a stranger on the Internet, egg you on to an exercise in time-wasting, and you could say "I'm probably OK and I don't care about it that much." -Nisiprius

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu May 03, 2018 6:32 am

Musk "off the rails" in Q & A. One observation is that he's still starting new, ambitious projects while existing projects (cars) are [old, boring projects (my summary)]. Biggest quarterly loss despite increased deliveries. Here we go....

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon- ... 2018-05-02
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by matjen » Thu May 03, 2018 7:01 am

Funny enough, the exact question posed by OP caused Musk to go silent and then turn to a friendly youtube poster for questions rather than analysts. :?

Tesla’s Elon Musk Turns Conference Call Into Sparring Session
Car maker’s CEO cuts off two analysts after they ask about capital requirements and Model 3 reservations; ‘boring, bonehead questions are not cool’
https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas-elo ... 1525339803
When Mr. Sacconaghi asked what the company’s specific capital requirements would be, Mr. Musk cut him off.

“Boring, bonehead questions are not cool—next,” Mr. Musk said, turning to the operator for the next question.

Joseph Spak of RBC Capital Markets then asked what percentage of Model 3 reservation holders who have been invited to start configuring their orders have actually done so.

Mr. Musk was silent for about 15 seconds.

“We’re going to go to YouTube, sorry. These questions are so dry. They’re killing me.” He directed the operator to take questions from Tesla investor Galileo Russell, whose HyperChange TV YouTube channel features a video titled, “Why I Bought Tesla Today at $255/Share.”
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by wrongfunds » Thu May 03, 2018 7:40 am

what percentage of Model 3 reservation holders who have been invited to start configuring their orders have actually done so.
This would be big issue only if

- There are bunch of M3 sitting on the lot
- The assembly line is producing too many vehicles

Even if 50% did NO start configuring, Tesla still needs to deliver over 200K M3 with over 400K reservations in place. It is rather disingenuous to complain about not being able to build fast enough and then saying they are not selling them fast enough. Pick one and then start hammering if you want.

First Decide if is it the supply or is it the demand that is the real problem.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by niceguy7376 » Thu May 03, 2018 7:48 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:40 am
First Decide if is it the supply or is it the demand that is the real problem.
Right now, it looks like Supply is the big problem for the company. They need money and the only way is to sell as many as they can.
They still have so many reservations and even if only 10% if the quoted 500K people only order, they are still a long way to go.

Even if we assume that the US based orders are 300K out of that 500K, you have enough orders to go through this year.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by DanMahowny » Thu May 03, 2018 7:50 am

Musk needs to be fired if Telsa is going to survive. He is a child.

I don't think they will survive, and shorting the stock is a wise move.

Things will be bad for owners of Tesla cars after the company folds.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Valuethinker » Thu May 03, 2018 7:50 am

HopeToGolf wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:41 pm
wrongfunds wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:43 am
Had an opportunity to sit in and drive it around a parking lot.
How? Courtesy of a friend or a family or a colleague? In our area, I can not even see that car in the show room let alone sit in it. Test driving is out of question.
Top Gear gave the Model 3 a great review...

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/tesla/model-3
That is fake TopGear; TopGear without Jeremy is NOT TopGear; I am sure Jeremy will HATE model 3 :twisted: I can justsee him ripping the Model 3 to shreds in his review and intentionally running out of juice during his test drive. It is guaranteed.

Seriously though, he was little humbled by his test drive of X but not much.
Regarding the test drive, I participate in a Tesla forum. I private messaged a member (we live in the same state) with a question on his Model 3 and he offered to meet me to show me the car. I met him in the parking lot of a supermarket in a nearby town where I had an engagement earlier that day.

Regarding seeing the car, the upside to where I live I can easily get to NYC to see it and now Cherry Hill, NJ also has one in stock. The forum member saved me probably 4 hours since I planned to go to NYC and that would have been a half-day activity. The downside to where I live is it is a HCOL so I pay for privileges like this.

No comment re Top Gear being real or fake. I’m not close enough to its history to comment.

If the Model 3 is anything like the S and X, Tesla will have another hit on their hands with most owners loving their cars and vowing to staying with EVs. All that despite a ton of noise by detractors of the company and the cars themselves.

These are cars that compete for the $$$ of luxury car buyers. I think there is going to be a lot of noise if people start to stretch their budgets to buy these vehicles. These folks are better off buying Bolts or hybrids. One place Elon was wrong is, IMO, a $35K car is not a mass market car.
For the sake of the planet and the human race I hope Musk succeeds.

I have a lot of reservations about the stock price. The valuation of the company leaves no margin for error. There is a reason for its junk credit rating and the company has issued debt securities which has significantly increased the risk for shareholders.

Re 35k to a UK person 20k GBP does not sound outlandish for a car but our car prices are higher. Virtually everyone would lease though.

Not mass market but competitive w a BMW 1 series, say.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu May 03, 2018 7:52 am

niceguy7376 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:48 am

Even if we assume that the US based orders are 300K out of that 500K, you have enough orders to go through this year.
I would think that once the tax incentive is gone, the number is going to drop like a rock.

If there is actual demand besides early adopters, reservations would continue to climb. Are they?
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by matjen » Thu May 03, 2018 7:54 am

“Disingenuous?” Come on! I have a better idea, how about the CEO of a public company answer straightforward and pertinent questions. The rest is hand waving.
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by letsgobobby » Thu May 03, 2018 8:04 am

I am not sure if this was already posted on the thread, but a small Detroit based company which breaks down vehicles for analysis has done so for the Model 3, and "it ain't pretty." Not all bad news by any means, though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep. ... /550308002

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