To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

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iamlucky13
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by iamlucky13 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:10 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:35 pm
Tesla's maintenance plans cost more than the maintenance for my "fossil car". A lot more, actually.

https://www.tesla.com/support/maintenance-plans
Wow! Almost $600 per year. I just looked up what a local Honda dealer chargers for their prepaid maintenance plan, and it's a bit over half that amount:
https://www.hondaofseattle.com/prepaid-maintenance.html

Helo80
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Helo80 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:16 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:35 pm
Tesla's maintenance plans cost more than the maintenance for my "fossil car". A lot more, actually.

https://www.tesla.com/support/maintenance-plans


The only thing of value on this is the "possible" 4 wheel alignment. The rest is stuff every car owner should be doing anyways. Usually, a tire rotation and balance runs about $20 if you do not do it through your regular tire shop. Said service may even be free at discount tire co.

During your annual service inspection, our expert Tesla Service team will take your vehicle through a bumper to bumper, roof to wheel inspection. The wheels will be removed and tires will be rotated, if necessary. A wheel alignment check is performed as well as an adjustment, if necessary. Logs will be pulled and examined; all systems will be tested; and the temperature management system will be checked. The drive unit(s) will be serviced every 4th inspection, starting with the first annual service inspection. Your brakes will be inspected. If the brake pads are outside of recommended specifications, they can be replaced for an additional charge. Tread wear is inspected and if new tires are needed, additional charges will apply. Please note that tire replacement is not covered as part of the annual inspection, Tesla Maintenance Plan, New Vehicle Limited Warranty, or Pre-Owned Vehicle Limited Warranty.

randomguy
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by randomguy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:10 pm
DanMahowny wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:35 pm
Tesla's maintenance plans cost more than the maintenance for my "fossil car". A lot more, actually.

https://www.tesla.com/support/maintenance-plans
Wow! Almost $600 per year. I just looked up what a local Honda dealer chargers for their prepaid maintenance plan, and it's a bit over half that amount:
https://www.hondaofseattle.com/prepaid-maintenance.html
Look up what a Mercedes/BMW/Audi dealer charges for a 90k car. It is within a couple hundred bucks of what Tesla charges. Tto me the real question is more what nonstandard maintence (i.e. my honda had a 1000 dollar timing belt that needed to be changed at 90k) will end up costing. I think in theory the EV's should be cheaper. I don't think Tesla is remotely close to the level of quality required to make that happen. Maybe in 10 years.

If you go in expecting honda accord pricing with a Tesla, you are going to be really disappointed.

madbrain
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by madbrain » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:48 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:04 pm
madbrain wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:03 pm
And possibly nothing at all if your panels are fully amortized and cover 100% of your electricity usage.
On a cash flow basis, yes, although the cost of sizing the panels to cover the car's consumption can't really be ignored (or alternative net metering value), and if you want to be be really comprehensive, that cost has a present value affected by the foregone revenue of alternative investments that money could have been spent on.

You don't necessarily have to take all this into account to justify buying an electric car and feeding it with your own solar panels, but it is not irrelevant if, for example, you want to consider how it affects your retirement savings.
Agree, but the ROI on the panels can also be a net contributor to your retirement savings. Especially if the price of both electricity and gas goes up. Some of the savings become attributable to EV - not having to buy gas, and some of the savings are attributable to the panels - getting electricity much cheaper than from your utility in the long run. I have not tried to separate them. I'm content knowing that I drive modern, fairly and safe and quiet EV and PHEV, that I don't contribute as much to greenhouse gases, and knowing that it's not costing me a fortune to do so. For me the question of comparing with gas car just doesn't arise though. I just wouldn't ever buy a gasoline-only car again if given the choice.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:07 pm

randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Look up what a Mercedes/BMW/Audi dealer charges for a 90k car. It is within a couple hundred bucks of what Tesla charges. Tto me the real question is more what nonstandard maintence (i.e. my honda had a 1000 dollar timing belt that needed to be changed at 90k) will end up costing. I think in theory the EV's should be cheaper. I don't think Tesla is remotely close to the level of quality required to make that happen. Maybe in 10 years.

If you go in expecting honda accord pricing with a Tesla, you are going to be really disappointed.
An Accord timing belt cost $1000 to replace? Yikes. I've replaced them myself and they're about the simplest belt replacement in existence. A Subaru EJ......with the required special tools to hold the cams in place and complicated H engine design.....ok, worth the money at about 10 times the complexity of any Honda or Acura I've ever seen.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

randomguy
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by randomguy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:21 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:07 pm
randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Look up what a Mercedes/BMW/Audi dealer charges for a 90k car. It is within a couple hundred bucks of what Tesla charges. Tto me the real question is more what nonstandard maintence (i.e. my honda had a 1000 dollar timing belt that needed to be changed at 90k) will end up costing. I think in theory the EV's should be cheaper. I don't think Tesla is remotely close to the level of quality required to make that happen. Maybe in 10 years.

If you go in expecting honda accord pricing with a Tesla, you are going to be really disappointed.
An Accord timing belt cost $1000 to replace? Yikes. I've replaced them myself and they're about the simplest belt replacement in existence. A Subaru EJ......with the required special tools to hold the cams in place and complicated H engine design.....ok, worth the money at about 10 times the complexity of any Honda or Acura I've ever seen.

There might have been somethig else on the list as it was a couple years ago but no it isn't a simple job. It is a 3-4 hour job. That is a lot of money when your paying 100/hr (or could be making 100/hr) and a 100 buck part. For a person who enjoys it (or doesn't value their time highly), then the inability to maintain your own car is a negative for the tesla.

iamlucky13
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by iamlucky13 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:27 pm

randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm
If you go in expecting honda accord pricing with a Tesla, you are going to be really disappointed.
Reduced maintenance cost is part of what Tesla has been claiming.

Apparently not if you prepay for Tesla-provided maintenance, though. Fortunately, things like brakes, suspension, and tires can be maintained by pretty much any qualified mechanic.

Also, maybe half the things they list should not need maintenance in the first 50,000 miles, so $2400 is a lot to pay for a cabin air filter and a tire rotation.
randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:21 pm
There might have been somethig else on the list as it was a couple years ago but no it isn't a simple job. It is a 3-4 hour job. That is a lot of money when your paying 100/hr (or could be making 100/hr) and a 100 buck part.
Sounds like dealer pricing. An independent shop did my Civic's belt and water pump for around $500. I won't be using that shop again though, because I'm pretty sure they didn't top off the coolant to replace what was lost when replacing the water pump, causing an overheat and other problems later, but none of the other shops quoted me anywhere close to $1000 either.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:38 pm

My Model S has cost me in maintenance a grand total of around $300 in almost 3 years.

Tire rotation every 5k miles or whenever - $0 (done at Tesla b/c they also give me a free wash)
Windshield wipers in late 2015 - $43.36 (bought at Amazon)
Cabin air filter in early 2016 - $8.25 (bought at Tesla)
Windshield wipers in late 2016 - less than $40 (bought on sale at Target)
Cabin air filter in early 2016 - $0 (bought at Tesla and they decided to "goodwill" it to me)
Alignment whenever necessary - $199 (bought lifetime alignment at Firestone)


"Pics or it didn't happen":
ImageImageImage

BBBob
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BBBob » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:46 pm


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just frank
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by just frank » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:31 pm

Current House tax plan eliminates $7500 Fed tax credit for EVs, effective Dec 31st, 2017.

https://insideevs.com/house-republicans ... this-year/

FYI: discussing pending legislations (i.e. its merits) is forbidden....but I think we can discuss how this might change our buying options as consumers.

I am now looking at a 2017 Bolt, rather than taking a chance on a more expensive 2018 LEAF.

Besides... @madbrain says they're really nice. :beer

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:38 pm
Cabin air filter in early 2016 - $8.25 (bought at Tesla)
I will find out what the Model X HEPA filter cost is next year. I'm sure it is more than $8.25 :D

neilpilot
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by neilpilot » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 pm
BrandonBogle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:38 pm
Cabin air filter in early 2016 - $8.25 (bought at Tesla)
I will find out what the Model X HEPA filter cost is next year. I'm sure it is more than $8.25 :D
Is this the filter, $80 on eBay? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Model-X- ... 2801899138

An owner in Europe decided to buy his Model X 100D without spending for the PUP, and then bought a HEPA filter on eBay. He's had it in for a few months, and reports good results.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:04 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 pm
BrandonBogle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:38 pm
Cabin air filter in early 2016 - $8.25 (bought at Tesla)
I will find out what the Model X HEPA filter cost is next year. I'm sure it is more than $8.25 :D
Is this the filter, $80 on eBay? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Model-X- ... 2801899138

An owner in Europe decided to buy his Model X 100D without spending for the PUP, and then bought a HEPA filter on eBay. He's had it in for a few months, and reports good results.
That's the one. I don't have much use for the BioWeapon Defense Mode, but I sure do like being behind stinky trucks in tunnels and not smelling the effects.

stoptothink
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by stoptothink » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:46 pm

randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:21 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:07 pm
randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Look up what a Mercedes/BMW/Audi dealer charges for a 90k car. It is within a couple hundred bucks of what Tesla charges. Tto me the real question is more what nonstandard maintence (i.e. my honda had a 1000 dollar timing belt that needed to be changed at 90k) will end up costing. I think in theory the EV's should be cheaper. I don't think Tesla is remotely close to the level of quality required to make that happen. Maybe in 10 years.

If you go in expecting honda accord pricing with a Tesla, you are going to be really disappointed.
An Accord timing belt cost $1000 to replace? Yikes. I've replaced them myself and they're about the simplest belt replacement in existence. A Subaru EJ......with the required special tools to hold the cams in place and complicated H engine design.....ok, worth the money at about 10 times the complexity of any Honda or Acura I've ever seen.

There might have been somethig else on the list as it was a couple years ago but no it isn't a simple job. It is a 3-4 hour job. That is a lot of money when your paying 100/hr (or could be making 100/hr) and a 100 buck part. For a person who enjoys it (or doesn't value their time highly), then the inability to maintain your own car is a negative for the tesla.
Estimates to replace timing belt on a contemporary model accord are $400-$500 https://repairpal.com/estimator/honda/a ... ement-cost. I had the timing belt on my previous civic done for ~$350. I think you are "misremembering" a few other other things done on that trip to the shop or simply got ripped off.

hoops777
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by hoops777 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:35 pm

madbrain wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:48 pm
iamlucky13 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:04 pm
madbrain wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:03 pm
And possibly nothing at all if your panels are fully amortized and cover 100% of your electricity usage.
On a cash flow basis, yes, although the cost of sizing the panels to cover the car's consumption can't really be ignored (or alternative net metering value), and if you want to be be really comprehensive, that cost has a present value affected by the foregone revenue of alternative investments that money could have been spent on.

You don't necessarily have to take all this into account to justify buying an electric car and feeding it with your own solar panels, but it is not irrelevant if, for example, you want to consider how it affects your retirement savings.
Agree, but the ROI on the panels can also be a net contributor to your retirement savings. Especially if the price of both electricity and gas goes up. Some of the savings become attributable to EV - not having to buy gas, and some of the savings are attributable to the panels - getting electricity much cheaper than from your utility in the long run. I have not tried to separate them. I'm content knowing that I drive modern, fairly and safe and quiet EV and PHEV, that I don't contribute as much to greenhouse gases, and knowing that it's not costing me a fortune to do so. For me the question of comparing with gas car just doesn't arise though. I just wouldn't ever buy a gasoline-only car again if given the choice.
We got solar panels a little less than 3 years ago,right after we bought our i3.We paid about 10,300 after tax credit and have had no elictric bill from pge except the about $12 connection fee.I was looking at our soon to be retirement and at that price thought it made good sense.Free “fuel” for the car,no worry about PGE raising rates and cost of living reduced as we age.I ended up retiring a lot sooner than expected,but like the solar panel/ev choice.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.

sco
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by sco » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:37 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:11 pm
Well, my niece just purchased out the door (in VA) a brand spanking new VW Jetta for

ARE YOU READY

ARE YOU READY


$12.5K


Aren't you now unhappy about your $19.5 Civic purchase? :twisted:

Wow!!!

SrGrumpy
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by SrGrumpy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:53 pm

madbrain wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:09 pm
I passed on putting a deposit. Glad I did not help finance the operation.
Oh, but you did! We all are financing the operation.

roflwaffle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by roflwaffle » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:28 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:18 pm
roflwaffle wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:04 pm
wrongfunds wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:49 pm
Let's see, 3 vehicles with 220-250K miles build before year 2000
1 vehicle built 5 years ago with approx 60K miles probably worth between 15-20K

Let us round up all to about $23K for all of them.

The metric will go out the window with the Tesla purchase!
Hmmm... I wonder about that. Not in terms of purchase price of course, but I'm curious about your real TCO for those cars.
I've added mine up with every cost I can think of - purchase price, fuel, insurance, licensing, tires, periodic maintenance, and an annual unexpected maintenance allowance that I'm well below on average (partially because I do a lot of my own).

The current figure for my 210,000 mile Civic is about $0.26 / mile, which means a total cost of $55,000.

For a "$35,000" electric car, assuming similar longevity, and 1/2 the maintenance cost (assuming battery lasts forever, but things like shocks and brakes still wear out), it would be $0.32 mile. That means a total cost of $67,000.

On a related note, moving to an area with a high cost of electricity could increase that another 10%, although you'd still be spending less on electricity than on gas for a conventional car.
That sounds right, except for the brake maintenance. It's hard to wear out the brakes on a hybrid/EV. Possible, but hard. What do the costs look like over 300k or 400k miles?

wrongfunds
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by wrongfunds » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:59 am

To be very fair, the person owning Tesla S is NOT of the type to drive the vehicle for 300-400K. He probably upgrades it in few short years to newer and fancier model.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:52 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:59 am
To be very fair, the person owning Tesla S is NOT of the type to drive the vehicle for 300-400K. He probably upgrades it in few short years to newer and fancier model.
Yes. I had been someone who bought outright and kept for 80k+ miles. Now, I wonder if I should have leased :oops: Model X, but the point still stands.

randomguy
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by randomguy » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:22 am

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:46 pm
randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:21 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:07 pm
randomguy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Look up what a Mercedes/BMW/Audi dealer charges for a 90k car. It is within a couple hundred bucks of what Tesla charges. Tto me the real question is more what nonstandard maintence (i.e. my honda had a 1000 dollar timing belt that needed to be changed at 90k) will end up costing. I think in theory the EV's should be cheaper. I don't think Tesla is remotely close to the level of quality required to make that happen. Maybe in 10 years.

If you go in expecting honda accord pricing with a Tesla, you are going to be really disappointed.
An Accord timing belt cost $1000 to replace? Yikes. I've replaced them myself and they're about the simplest belt replacement in existence. A Subaru EJ......with the required special tools to hold the cams in place and complicated H engine design.....ok, worth the money at about 10 times the complexity of any Honda or Acura I've ever seen.

There might have been somethig else on the list as it was a couple years ago but no it isn't a simple job. It is a 3-4 hour job. That is a lot of money when your paying 100/hr (or could be making 100/hr) and a 100 buck part. For a person who enjoys it (or doesn't value their time highly), then the inability to maintain your own car is a negative for the tesla.
Estimates to replace timing belt on a contemporary model accord are $400-$500 https://repairpal.com/estimator/honda/a ... ement-cost. I had the timing belt on my previous civic done for ~$350. I think you are "misremembering" a few other other things done on that trip to the shop or simply got ripped off.
Well I am too lazy to actually get the receipt but from that site

Timing Belt Replacement Cost for 2011 Honda Accord $669 to $905

+ tax and fees

Note they are not including the water pump in the parts list which you pretty much always replace when you do the belt since you have the engine apart. Do you still think I am misremembering or do you think you have put in a LCOL zip code and tried to apply those prices to a HCOL one?:)

sandramjet
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by sandramjet » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:16 pm

I'd like some input from the folks that own EV's (especially Tesla/Bolt). Here's some of my thoughts:
--The more that the model 3 gets delayed, the more likely it is that there won't be a 7.5k credit for it. A Bolt could be bought today with the credit
--One of the attractive points (in my opinion) for the Tesla is the supercharger network, because it does allow for realistically travelling further than the basic range of the EV
--I would be frequently taking trips of 200-500 miles along routes that appear to be well served by Superchargers. For this reason, I have been considering a Model 3. (I'm not willing to spring for a S or X...)

While I'm not thrilled about it, I am willing to pay the 42k cost of a model 3 (49k for extended range - 7.5k credit). On the other hand, I could buy a Bolt for about 7k less, but not have access to a Supercharger networks.

But I am struggling to think about whether the supercharger network would still be worth the additional cost if I compare a Bolt, bought today, vs a Model 3, bought sometime next year and assuming that I would NOT get the 7.5 tax credit. That effectively doubles the cost of the Supercharger access to about 14k.

So my question to those who have actually used EV's for long trips, what do you think? How important is the Supercharger network? How much longer might it take to do a 350mile trip in Bolt vs Tesla? How easy is it to charge a Bolt on the road ?

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Leif
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:54 pm

sandramjet wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:16 pm
So my question to those who have actually used EV's for long trips, what do you think? How important is the Supercharger network? How much longer might it take to do a 350mile trip in Bolt vs Tesla? How easy is it to charge a Bolt on the road ?
I have a Tesla Model S since December. I've taken one trip that what 700 miles R/T. If not for the supercharger network I would have taken our other gas powered car instead (much nicer in the Tesla). I left home with 100% charge. At one stop it took me about 1 hour to charge to 100%, since I was going into an area without superchargers. Otherwise, the charging was about 40 minutes. That totals to 60+40+40 or 140 minutes. But these were timed with lunch stops, so the time was not really noticeable to us. I would "guess" the Bolt with a max. of 50 kW vs. Tesla 120 kW. Would take 2-3X longer with a DC fast charge. Level 2 chargers would be around 7 kW, or around 15x longer.
Investors should diversify across many asset-classes so that whatever happens, we will not have all our investments in underperforming asset classes and thereby fail to meet our goals-Taylor Larimore

sandramjet
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by sandramjet » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm

Leif wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:54 pm
I would "guess" the Bolt with a max. of 50 kW vs. Tesla 120 kW. Would take 2-3X longer with a DC fast charge. Level 2 chargers would be around 7 kW, or around 15x longer.
Thanks for the datapoint.

Anyone have a sense of how easy it is to find DC fast charge or Level 2 charge stations for Bolt compared to Superchargers? (is there a web page somewhere that shows charger locations like it does for Superchargers?)

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Leif
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Leif » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:37 pm

sandramjet wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
(is there a web page somewhere that shows charger locations like it does for Superchargers?)
One of the better ones (use is free) is plugshare and www.plugshare.com.
Investors should diversify across many asset-classes so that whatever happens, we will not have all our investments in underperforming asset classes and thereby fail to meet our goals-Taylor Larimore

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:49 pm

sandramjet wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:16 pm
While I'm not thrilled about it, I am willing to pay the 42k cost of a model 3 (49k for extended range - 7.5k credit). On the other hand, I could buy a Bolt for about 7k less, but not have access to a Supercharger networks.

But I am struggling to think about whether the supercharger network would still be worth the additional cost if I compare a Bolt, bought today, vs a Model 3, bought sometime next year and assuming that I would NOT get the 7.5 tax credit. That effectively doubles the cost of the Supercharger access to about 14k.

So my question to those who have actually used EV's for long trips, what do you think? How important is the Supercharger network? How much longer might it take to do a 350mile trip in Bolt vs Tesla? How easy is it to charge a Bolt on the road ?
Depending on where you look, you can get a Bolt below MSRP. With Tesla, the price is the same everywhere. The Bolt sadly has no power seats in any trim configuration. There are other things that the Model 3 has or the Bolt has (for instance, heated rear seats in the Bolt, only on the S and X for Tesla). The interior components are generally considered to be higher end on the Tesla with soft-touch surfaces vs. hard plastics in the Bolt. That said, the Bolt is a solid car.

As for your question, I've driven my Model S from DC to Key West and many points in between. The Supercharger network is absolutely critical for "effortless" road trips. Before the Supercharger network and with the other EVs, you can do it, but it's significantly more time consuming and takes more planning. Just as with the Superchargers though, this is more the rare occurrence if you don't regularly take many trips and less of a problem as high speed chargers become more prevalent.

While I personally believe we won't be seeing the tax credit even begin to phase out for Tesla until about Sept. 2018, I could see the argument for getting a Bolt. In our household, we've even considered replacing the Honda Fit with a Chevy Bolt since we'd also have my Model S. My mother will be replacing her Lexus IS with a standard range Model 3 and is in no rush whether it happens next week or 6 months from now. Her current car may be a 2010, but there is nothing wrong with it.

Nate79
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Nate79 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:23 am

I continue to see articles and comments about how crowded the Supercharger network is becoming. I would take that into consideration, especially as the Model 3s come to market.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:54 am

Nate79 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:23 am
I continue to see articles and comments about how crowded the Supercharger network is becoming. I would take that into consideration, especially as the Model 3s come to market.
Generally speaking, outside of California it hasn’t been an issue. In NC it definitely hasn’t and there are multiple Superchargers coming online very quickly around here in the second half of 2017. Raleigh just came online with 12 bays. Florence, SC I believe also has 12 bays. The expansions have been welcome before deliveries as many areas now mean you get to skip a Supercharger to get to your destination — giving you the choice of which one to stop at.

Take a look at Supercharge.info to see the current and under construction Superchargers for the short term, and permitted ones for the medium term. These will help make decisions based on what’s in your area specifically.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by 4nursebee » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:16 am

We are on plugshare and have only ever had one person charge here.
Rocky Mount NC supercharger rarely has cars, at most one or two during daylight.
Where is the Raleigh supercharger?
No model 3s observed at Raleigh sales or service center yesterday.
I got an email showing car hauler full of 3's in Dallas TX this week. It was unloading them.
4nursebee

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:25 am

Nate79 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:23 am
I continue to see articles and comments about how crowded the Supercharger network is becoming. I would take that into consideration, especially as the Model 3s come to market.
Not the case, at least on the East coast. In over 1.5 years, I had to wait for a charger once, because idiots in an ICE decided to park there. It was only a 5 minute wait before the idiots moved their car. I didn’t even have time to get them a ticket or a tow.

Just recently, there was a software update, so that my car knows how many stalls are open at a Supercharger and what the maximum charge rate is at the location. GPS takes that into consideration. For example, the old 2 stall charger in CT is bypassed by GPS trip planning for the nearby 14-stall charger.

@sandramjet, if it were me, I’d go for a CPO Model S.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by just frank » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:08 am

sandramjet wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
Leif wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:54 pm
I would "guess" the Bolt with a max. of 50 kW vs. Tesla 120 kW. Would take 2-3X longer with a DC fast charge. Level 2 chargers would be around 7 kW, or around 15x longer.
Thanks for the datapoint.

Anyone have a sense of how easy it is to find DC fast charge or Level 2 charge stations for Bolt compared to Superchargers? (is there a web page somewhere that shows charger locations like it does for Superchargers?)
I think the 2-3x longer estimate is a bit pessimistic. Both the Bolt and the Tesla will 'taper' down the charging rate over time in a way limited by the battery versus state of charge (SOC). You could dig into the Tesla blogs to figure out real charge times at SC stations....I think few people hit the 120 kW power (which is intended for future cars that can use it), instead hitting a ~100 kW peak initially, which then tapers down pretty fast.

The Bolt will also taper, but if the battery of the Bolt and the Tesla are similarly sized (with well engineered TPMSs), then they both probably have a similar maximum charging speed and taper profile. Which will be **less** than current Model S and X, due to smaller pack size.

FYI, the manual for the Bolt says that its fast charge is limited to 80 kW (not 50)...although there are now zero CCS DCFC's in the US currently above 50 kW. The Bolt future-proofed the other way...toward working with future, higher power chargers.

I think the distance you are driving is important. Both the Bolt and the '3' have ~200 mile range at max HW speeds. So for trips that are 150 miles each way (300 round trip) the two cars are equally functional, assuming charging at your destination (which might be an L2 at a hotel, realistically, in both cases). That is, trip time is the same, as no FC is required.

If you are adding 100 miles to the one-way distance (now 500 miles round trip) and assuming destination L2 charging, both cars need one DCFC stop near the middle, that adds 100 miles of range, or about 25-30 kWh. The Bolt at a 50 kW charger (many are more like 42 kW btw), this will take 30-40 minutes. On the model 3...let's say optimistically, 20-25 minutes.

So on this 500 mile round trip, the difference is 10-15 minutes X 2 (for the round trip) or 20-30 minutes...in 9 hours on the road, (8 hours of driving plus 1 hour of charging stop).

In summary....the best fast charging stop is no fast charging stop....just having the darned range you need to get there. Once you are stopping, its a PITA either way....20 mins versus 30...you'll care more about the amenities at the stop.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:06 am

4nursebee wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:16 am
We are on plugshare and have only ever had one person charge here.
Rocky Mount NC supercharger rarely has cars, at most one or two during daylight.
Where is the Raleigh supercharger?
No model 3s observed at Raleigh sales or service center yesterday.
I got an email showing car hauler full of 3's in Dallas TX this week. It was unloading them.
It’s in North Hills. Started showing up in the car’s NAV on Saturday. It came online on Thursday.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by wrongfunds » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:50 am

Another thing to remember is that Model 3 has supercharger "access" but you need to pay for it. I suspect since the 3 owners by definitions are "frugal" (OK, call us cheapskates if you like :-), and Tesla being the company to optimize their revenues, the cost of that access is NOT going to be subsidized. That implies the supercharger network will NOT get run over by swarm of 3s.

That brings up another point. I strongly suspect that cost of supercharger for 200 mile of the driving range will be at least price of the gas of typical 35mpg sedan if the gas prices are at $3.00 To put it another way, if a 3 owner used the supercharger network, he will NOT be saving money on equivalent fuel for ICE car.

I hope somebody will prove me wrong about the above assertion.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by randomguy » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:07 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:50 am
Another thing to remember is that Model 3 has supercharger "access" but you need to pay for it. I suspect since the 3 owners by definitions are "frugal" (OK, call us cheapskates if you like :-), and Tesla being the company to optimize their revenues, the cost of that access is NOT going to be subsidized. That implies the supercharger network will NOT get run over by swarm of 3s.

That brings up another point. I strongly suspect that cost of supercharger for 200 mile of the driving range will be at least price of the gas of typical 35mpg sedan if the gas prices are at $3.00 To put it another way, if a 3 owner used the supercharger network, he will NOT be saving money on equivalent fuel for ICE car.

I hope somebody will prove me wrong about the above assertion.

Those frugal owners will have no choice when they are road tripping. They might not take a 10 mile trip to get a free fill up the way a model s owner will but when they are doing long trips, I expect they will show up at the supercharger network.

Tesla ownership is set to go up over 10x in the next couple of years. Your station today with 5 slots where only 2 are filled will now have a line of 15 cars waiting to charge. Can they expand the network fast enough to keep up? Who knows.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by DanMahowny » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:56 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:25 am
Not the case, at least on the East coast. In over 1.5 years, I had to wait for a charger once, because idiots in an ICE decided to park there. It was only a 5 minute wait before the idiots moved their car. I didn’t even have time to get them a ticket or a tow.
My friend (an attorney) said this:
"Many of the super charger locations are not privately owned. Essentially, they are public parking lots. A ICE car can park there if they want to, signage doesn't matter. Of course everyone would agree it's a dick move, but they cannot get a ticket."

Is this true?

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:40 am

DanMahowny wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:56 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:25 am
Not the case, at least on the East coast. In over 1.5 years, I had to wait for a charger once, because idiots in an ICE decided to park there. It was only a 5 minute wait before the idiots moved their car. I didn’t even have time to get them a ticket or a tow.
My friend (an attorney) said this:
"Many of the super charger locations are not privately owned. Essentially, they are public parking lots. A ICE car can park there if they want to, signage doesn't matter. Of course everyone would agree it's a dick move, but they cannot get a ticket."

Is this true?
I was watching a series of videos about this. They were made by (from memory) "Love Tesla", perhaps? I believe they were all filmed in California and they talked about being "ICE'd out" and showed a 5 charger area all filled with ICE cars. They explained that the charger spaces were leased, but not the parking space associated with the charger. As many spaces are owned by hotels, malls or stores, even pleas to store owners to find the car owners to have them move to another space were met with denials. A hotel owner wants someone paying $200 a night to be happy and to come back. They won't be finding them and asking that the car be moved so a non-paying customer can charge their car.

Another problem that they talked about that surprised me was non-Tesla cars using the superchargers. Are all EVs standard such that any can use any charger? They showed an i3 in a supercharger space, and the owner getting out and putting in the charger and the color of the charger light changing to green. I took that to mean that anyone could use a charger. Is that true?
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:07 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:40 am
Another problem that they talked about that surprised me was non-Tesla cars using the superchargers. Are all EVs standard such that any can use any charger? They showed an i3 in a supercharger space, and the owner getting out and putting in the charger and the color of the charger light changing to green. I took that to mean that anyone could use a charger. Is that true?
I don't believe that this is possible. The vehicle being charged gives its identification to the charger, and I haven't heard of anyone hacking it. That was probably a generic charger you saw. Where was the "charger light?"

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Helo80 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:19 pm

wrongfunds wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:50 am
Another thing to remember is that Model 3 has supercharger "access" but you need to pay for it. I suspect since the 3 owners by definitions are "frugal" (OK, call us cheapskates if you like :-), and Tesla being the company to optimize their revenues, the cost of that access is NOT going to be subsidized. That implies the supercharger network will NOT get run over by swarm of 3s.

That brings up another point. I strongly suspect that cost of supercharger for 200 mile of the driving range will be at least price of the gas of typical 35mpg sedan if the gas prices are at $3.00 To put it another way, if a 3 owner used the supercharger network, he will NOT be saving money on equivalent fuel for ICE car.

I hope somebody will prove me wrong about the above assertion.


Another question to ask is this....

1. If the federal highway fund and state tax monies on gasoline and diesel consumption are passed onto the consumer via the price per gallon sign at every gas station, how are state government and the federal government going to collect tax revenues down the road?

(note: the obvious answer is that every EV will effectively be a smart car that has (basically) 24x7x365 access to a GPS signal and we are all going to be tracked and charged by the mile. As it stands now, if you buy a hypothetical 1000 mile per gallon car, you pay little to nothing to use America's roads beyond maybe what monies are collected via state registration.)

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:34 pm

Helo80 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:19 pm


Another question to ask is this....

1. If the federal highway fund and state tax monies on gasoline and diesel consumption are passed onto the consumer via the price per gallon sign at every gas station, how are state government and the federal government going to collect tax revenues down the road?

(note: the obvious answer is that every EV will effectively be a smart car that has (basically) 24x7x365 access to a GPS signal and we are all going to be tracked and charged by the mile. As it stands now, if you buy a hypothetical 1000 mile per gallon car, you pay little to nothing to use America's roads beyond maybe what monies are collected via state registration.)
Oregon, as an example, will introduce a higher vehicle registration fee for EVs in 2020. I think the additional cost is $110.

Oregon is also experimenting with introducing a road user fee as a replacement for the gasoline tax.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... /27676973/

The problem it is supposed to address is not just to find a way to collect funds from EV drivers, but also to address fuel efficiency improvements of ICE vehicles.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:54 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:07 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:40 am
Another problem that they talked about that surprised me was non-Tesla cars using the superchargers. Are all EVs standard such that any can use any charger? They showed an i3 in a supercharger space, and the owner getting out and putting in the charger and the color of the charger light changing to green. I took that to mean that anyone could use a charger. Is that true?
I don't believe that this is possible. The vehicle being charged gives its identification to the charger, and I haven't heard of anyone hacking it. That was probably a generic charger you saw. Where was the "charger light?"
The light was on the charger input of the car.
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TravelGeek
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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:03 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:54 pm

The light was on the charger input of the car.
I have never looked at the plugs/cables in person, but looking at photos on the web and
https://chargehub.com/en/electric-car-c ... guide.html it appears to be physically impossible to plug the supercharger cable into the i3’s SAE Combo CCS port.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by neilpilot » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:10 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:03 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:54 pm

The light was on the charger input of the car.
I have never looked at the plugs/cables in person, but looking at photos on the web and
https://chargehub.com/en/electric-car-c ... guide.html it appears to be physically impossible to plug the supercharger cable into the i3’s SAE Combo CCS port.
Unless this J1772 adapter will work at a Supercharger
https://electrek.co/2017/06/20/tesla-j1 ... -chargers/

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:26 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:10 pm
Unless this J1772 adapter will work at a Supercharger
https://electrek.co/2017/06/20/tesla-j1 ... -chargers/
Interesting, but I interpret

“The $400 adapter is now listed ready to ship on his website where he lists several caveats:

NOTE 1: JDapter Stub will NOT work with the Tesla Supercharger – Direct Current (DC) charging”

as a no-go for Super Chargers. With the plan to actually charge money to Model 3 owners I assume Tesla has some sort of “authentication” mechanism at Superchargers, if only to facilitate billing.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:39 pm

TravelGeek wrote:With the plan to actually charge money to Model 3 owners I assume Tesla has some sort of “authentication” mechanism at Superchargers, if only to facilitate billing.
They have had full knowledge of who is charging, what state of charge they’re at, and other information for some time. I don’t identify myself when I plug my car in, but they text me when I’m fully charged, or when I have enough to resume my trip to my next destination. Way back when, iirc, some Model S were sold without free Supercharger access, which could be turned on for a fee.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:46 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:39 pm
They have had full knowledge of who is charging, what state of charge they’re at, and other information for some time. I don’t identify myself when I plug my car in, but they text me when I’m fully charged, or when I have enough to resume my trip to my next destination. Way back when, iirc, some Model S were sold without free Supercharger access, which could be turned on for a fee.
Thanks, it makes sense that the identification and authentication is built right into the vehicle.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by sandramjet » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:21 pm

just frank wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:08 am
sandramjet wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
Leif wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:54 pm
I would "guess" the Bolt with a max. of 50 kW vs. Tesla 120 kW. Would take 2-3X longer with a DC fast charge. Level 2 chargers would be around 7 kW, or around 15x longer.
Thanks for the datapoint.

Anyone have a sense of how easy it is to find DC fast charge or Level 2 charge stations for Bolt compared to Superchargers? (is there a web page somewhere that shows charger locations like it does for Superchargers?)
I think the 2-3x longer estimate is a bit pessimistic. Both the Bolt and the Tesla will 'taper' down the charging rate over time in a way limited by the battery versus state of charge (SOC). You could dig into the Tesla blogs to figure out real charge times at SC stations....I think few people hit the 120 kW power (which is intended for future cars that can use it), instead hitting a ~100 kW peak initially, which then tapers down pretty fast.

The Bolt will also taper, but if the battery of the Bolt and the Tesla are similarly sized (with well engineered TPMSs), then they both probably have a similar maximum charging speed and taper profile. Which will be **less** than current Model S and X, due to smaller pack size.

FYI, the manual for the Bolt says that its fast charge is limited to 80 kW (not 50)...although there are now zero CCS DCFC's in the US currently above 50 kW. The Bolt future-proofed the other way...toward working with future, higher power chargers.

I think the distance you are driving is important. Both the Bolt and the '3' have ~200 mile range at max HW speeds. So for trips that are 150 miles each way (300 round trip) the two cars are equally functional, assuming charging at your destination (which might be an L2 at a hotel, realistically, in both cases). That is, trip time is the same, as no FC is required.

If you are adding 100 miles to the one-way distance (now 500 miles round trip) and assuming destination L2 charging, both cars need one DCFC stop near the middle, that adds 100 miles of range, or about 25-30 kWh. The Bolt at a 50 kW charger (many are more like 42 kW btw), this will take 30-40 minutes. On the model 3...let's say optimistically, 20-25 minutes.

So on this 500 mile round trip, the difference is 10-15 minutes X 2 (for the round trip) or 20-30 minutes...in 9 hours on the road, (8 hours of driving plus 1 hour of charging stop).

In summary....the best fast charging stop is no fast charging stop....just having the darned range you need to get there. Once you are stopping, its a PITA either way....20 mins versus 30...you'll care more about the amenities at the stop.
Thanks for insights. One thing I should clarify ... when I said "200-500" mile trips, I was thinking "one way" ... so 400-1000 miles round trip. I assumed I could charge overnight at the destination, but will still need to charge along the way

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:26 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:46 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:39 pm
They have had full knowledge of who is charging, what state of charge they’re at, and other information for some time. I don’t identify myself when I plug my car in, but they text me when I’m fully charged, or when I have enough to resume my trip to my next destination. Way back when, iirc, some Model S were sold without free Supercharger access, which could be turned on for a fee.
Thanks, it makes sense that the identification and authentication is built right into the vehicle.
As something of an aside, it was disconcerting once when I called Tesla about an issue, and the help desk person told me that what I was experiencing would be fixed by update n.x.y, which was currently 70% completed on my car, and to give them a call back if it didn't solve the issue once the car rebooted. This is not the car for someone who is paranoid :D

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by Momus » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:31 pm

No because the self driving part is still a gimmick feature. Wait another 5 yrs at least until this technology is perfected.

The range is also not good. 310 is lacking...

My gas guzzling car can still take me A to B just fine with 450-500 highway miles on a single tank.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by TravelGeek » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:43 pm

Momus wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:31 pm
The range is also not good. 310 is lacking...

My gas guzzling car can still take me A to B just fine with 450-500 highway miles on a single tank.
The Tesla Supercharger network makes that pretty painless for many people.

Also, many potential customers don’t regularly have the need to drive such distances.

I don’t buy an airplane because I once a year fly to the east coast; I rent one (seat) when that trip comes up. If I had only an EV and were going on a once-a-year lengthy road trip and the SC network wasn’t a viable option, I would consider just renting a vehicle and putting the miles on the rental.

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Re: To take or not to take delivery of Tesla 3

Post by BrandonBogle » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:56 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:25 am
Not the case, at least on the East coast. In over 1.5 years, I had to wait for a charger once, because idiots in an ICE decided to park there. It was only a 5 minute wait before the idiots moved their car. I didn’t even have time to get them a ticket or a tow.
My friend (an attorney) said this:
"Many of the super charger locations are not privately owned. Essentially, they are public parking lots. A ICE car can park there if they want to, signage doesn't matter. Of course everyone would agree it's a dick move, but they cannot get a ticket."

Is this true?
All the Superchargers I've been to have actually been the other way around, in privately-owned lots. However, this means they cannot get a ticket from the city (my city tickets the public chargers when a car parks there and isn't plugged in), but instead, the only option is the property owner enforcing their towing rights subject to the signage they have posted. In many cases, these private owners have been reluctant to do that (see the post above about hotel owners asking a paying customer to move their car so a potentially non-paying customer can charge).

I wonder if you misheard/misunderstood? While I'm sure this varies by jurisdiction, I would be surprised to hear officers being unable to ticket in a public parking lot (absent there not be a city ordinance for blocking a charger -- i.e., nothing to ticket for).

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