Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

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lthenderson
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Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:36 am

My Honda Odyssey has been a great vehicle but was totaled out in a hail storm and needed about $1500 worth of struts and springs so I opted to collect the insurance check and buy another vehicle. We chose the 2017 Toyota Sienna XLE w/ AWD with XLE Navigation package and All Weather mats throughout, MSRP of $40,500. I priced out area dealers online that were selling that model without the XLE Navigation or All Weather Mats for around $35k +/- $500 including the current $2500 cash back rebate. I then called my local dealer where I have done business before and made an appointment for the following morning.

I walked in the next morning and spent about 15 minutes chit chatting about options and he finally pulled up an XLE with Nav and All Weather Mats at another dealership in the color I wanted and I asked him for his absolute bottom dollar. He quoted me $35,500 which was the high side of the range above but with about $1000 in options (Nav and Mats) already included. I made an offer for $34k all cash if he threw in remote start and the $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection. He had to go see his manager and came back for $34,200 with Nav, mats, remote start and the total car protection package and we shook hands and I made a deposit of $500. Total time spent was about an hour doing research and an hour actually at the dealership finishing the deal.

Since I'm a loyal customer (having done business with them in the past), it also comes with two years of free oil changes and service along with lifetime use of their dealer car wash. If I ever have to have work done on it they will pick it up at my home or work, do what needs to be done and return it at no extra charge. It is undergoing the total car protection treatment tomorrow and I will pay the balance and pick it up on Wednesday.

I write this as an alternative to all the online mass email methods posted on here multiple times. Talking to a sales associate was neither intimidating or time consuming. I also ended up with another $1000 worth of options and some personal extras that I probably wouldn't have gotten had I just done a mass email blitz. Plus there is the added benefit of keeping my dollars local (i.e. sales associates commission) and the local dealer is a big donor for my daughter's private school. I ended up with a price well within the excellent price range at TrueCar and other sites and it took only two hours of time. I also never gave out my phone number of email address at any step so I don't get an inbox full of dealer ads for months to come.

Wyatt007
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by Wyatt007 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:42 am

Sounds like you got a good deal, but not everyone has a local dealer who will price match. When I purchased a new Odyssey last year my local guy was about $3k higher than an offer I had from a dealer a few hours away.

rgs92
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by rgs92 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:45 am

That's great about them going to another dealer to find one for you. I went to my local Lexus dealer and pointed to a CPO car on their own website but was at another dealer that was in the same family of dealers (they shared the website).
The dealer sent me away and said they couldn't get that car or even refer me to someone. It's like they were competing against each other even though they were partners.

bigred77
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by bigred77 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:49 am

It's just a matter of how much time and effort you want to sink into trying to get the absolute lowest price possible.

If you want minimal hassle and are Ok with a good price that you find acceptable (and many here are Ok with that) then that's a fine approach.

If you want to spend a couple of weeks emailing, negotiating in person, driving around to different dealers, etc. then yes, you could probably save 5% - 10% more by doing that. Depends on what your time is worth.

boglegirl
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by boglegirl » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:51 am

lthenderson wrote:My Honda Odyssey has been a great vehicle but was totaled out in a hail storm and needed about $1500 worth of struts and springs so I opted to collect the insurance check and buy another vehicle. We chose the 2017 Toyota Sienna XLE ...

Since I'm a loyal customer (having done business with them in the past), it also comes with two years of free oil changes and service along with lifetime use of their dealer car wash. If I ever have to have work done on it they will pick it up at my home or work, do what needs to be done and return it at no extra charge. It is undergoing the total car protection treatment tomorrow and I will pay the balance and pick it up on Wednesday.

I write this as an alternative to all the online mass email methods posted on here multiple times. Talking to a sales associate was neither intimidating or time consuming. I also ended up with another $1000 worth of options and some personal extras that I probably wouldn't have gotten had I just done a mass email blitz. Plus there is the added benefit of keeping my dollars local (i.e. sales associates commission) and the local dealer is a big donor for my daughter's private school. I ended up with a price well within the excellent price range at TrueCar and other sites and it took only two hours of time. I also never gave out my phone number of email address at any step so I don't get an inbox full of dealer ads for months to come.
I'm glad you're happy with your new van and the price you paid.

We used the online mass email method last year on a Toyota, and also received free oil changes and maintenance for 2 years. It's called ToyotaCare, and all Toyota owners get it. https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/toyota-care

boglegirl
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by boglegirl » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:58 am

bigred77 wrote:It's just a matter of how much time and effort you want to sink into trying to get the absolute lowest price possible.

If you want minimal hassle and are Ok with a good price that you find acceptable (and many here are Ok with that) then that's a fine approach.

If you want to spend a couple of weeks emailing, negotiating in person, driving around to different dealers, etc. then yes, you could probably save 5% - 10% more by doing that. Depends on what your time is worth.
I did the email method and found it to be minimal hassle. It took a couple of hours to send the initial email blast. I only bothered to respond to the top 3, and that negotiation took maybe an hour over the next couple of days.

It sounds like OP had several reasons for negotiating only with his local dealer. But most of us don't have a relationship with a dealer in our town where we've previously purchased one or more cars and who is a big donor to our child's school.

Wakefield1
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by Wakefield1 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:04 am

In the very rare case that someone you ran with was a part owner of their family Cadillac/Pontiac/ Nissan dealership it sure made buying a new car more pleasant and cheaper. Of course that was before Pontiac went out of business.
Otherwise maybe talk to the Credit Union?

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:26 pm

bigred77 wrote:If you want to spend a couple of weeks emailing, negotiating in person, driving around to different dealers, etc. then yes, you could probably save 5% - 10% more by doing that. Depends on what your time is worth.
Saving another $3400 by emailing? I doubt that. The sales associate, whom I know personally, has always told me that for email quotes they always start about $500 to $1000 higher than someone who walks in the door with cash in hand. They also don't get extras thrown in to try and sweeten the deal. The reason is simple. They get thousands of such emails a week and spending loads of time to try to entice an anonymous stranger isn't worth anyone's time. However it is well worth their time to keep someone from walking out the door where their odds of making a sell are much much higher.

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mhc
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by mhc » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:35 pm

He is a good salesman. You made a purchase and walked away happy. Win-Win deal. This is what every salesman shoots for.

SimonJester
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by SimonJester » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:00 pm

It all depends on the local dealers and the market. In 2004 when I purchased my Sienna it was the first year after the redesign so they were selling pretty well. My local dealer would not budge from their number which was only a mere $2,000 OVER MSRP :shock: :shock:

I ended up doing the email route to all the dealers in a 75 mile radius and went with the lowest out the door price. Funny my dealer I purchased from did a dealer trade for the van we wanted with my local dealer.

I pretty much detest the time wasting "let me go talk to my manager" routine, but since I most often purchased a used car I have to engage in it.

I give them one chance now to do the routine and I walk off...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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Alexa9
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by Alexa9 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:03 pm

Stealerships are not your friends no matter how well they sweet talk you or offer you "free oil changes and car washes."
Private parties are a better place to buy a car and a mechanic is a better place to get it repaired.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by adamthesmythe » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:18 pm

lthenderson wrote:
bigred77 wrote:If you want to spend a couple of weeks emailing, negotiating in person, driving around to different dealers, etc. then yes, you could probably save 5% - 10% more by doing that. Depends on what your time is worth.
Saving another $3400 by emailing? I doubt that. The sales associate, whom I know personally, has always told me that for email quotes they always start about $500 to $1000 higher than someone who walks in the door with cash in hand. They also don't get extras thrown in to try and sweeten the deal. The reason is simple. They get thousands of such emails a week and spending loads of time to try to entice an anonymous stranger isn't worth anyone's time. However it is well worth their time to keep someone from walking out the door where their odds of making a sell are much much higher.
I've been reading that people have trouble getting replies to their emails, so this makes sense.

Dealing in person- I think the thing you had going for you is a salesman that wasn't new. (And it seems like lots are new). When they are new they have to do the entire dance of 500 below MSRP, go to manager, repeat too many times.

I tried telling a newbie that I wouldn't do that, that I had a deal I was OK with for another brand. He didn't believe me. Or maybe his manager didn't.

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:47 am

SimonJester wrote:It all depends on the local dealers and the market. In 2004 when I purchased my Sienna it was the first year after the redesign so they were selling pretty well. My local dealer would not budge from their number which was only a mere $2,000 OVER MSRP :shock: :shock:

I pretty much detest the time wasting "let me go talk to my manager" routine, but since I most often purchased a used car I have to engage in it.
Yes I had an advantage since 2018 Camry's (I think, it may have been the Corolla) were already on the lot and I'm sure the 2018 Siennas won't be long in arriving either so they were willing to get buy on a little less to get rid of the old stock. In the past when I've bought first generation models, I haven't gotten nearly the discount either.

I guess I like the "let me go talk to the manager" routine because it gives me a few minutes to pause and recheck my emotions of new car versus price I'm willing to pay. If my wife is along, it gives us a few minutes to confer as well though I often wonder if their sales cubicles are bugged. In this case, my wife was at work and we had agreed upon our budget for a "good" deal and his initial quote was right on it so I knew then that I was going to get the van, I just had to negotiate to see how much less I could pay.

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:58 am

Alexa9 wrote:Stealerships are not your friends no matter how well they sweet talk you or offer you "free oil changes and car washes."
As I have said, I have a good friend who is a sales associate at one dealership and another who owns a dealership plus a few others acquaintances who work at them. They are good people but get maligned because in order for them to make more money, we have to pay more for our vehicle. I don't fault them for that and I don't think anyone else should. The sales associates who are the front lines at the dealership definitely shouldn't be faulted because not a single one of them that I know are getting anywhere close to rich. It is a high stress job with little reward in my opinion. The dealership owner is a different story but again, they took the risk to start their own business and succeed so who am I to begrudge them getting rewarded.

I think a lot of this bad attitudes towards buying a car at a dealership stem from our society which is largely free from negotiations when purchasing almost everything. Many countries I have been too encourage negotiating on everything down to the price for your banana. For them it is a way of life and nobody feels insulted or having been taken advantage.

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:03 am

adamthesmythe wrote:I tried telling a newbie that I wouldn't do that, that I had a deal I was OK with for another brand. He didn't believe me. Or maybe his manager didn't.
I wouldn't expect the same experience had this been the first time to see this person. In fact, two years ago when he was gone on vacation, I stopped in to buy a new RAV4 for my wife. It was a totally different experience with the unfamiliar sales associate and she let me walk out the door over $500. When my friend learned of it later, he apologized and said that had he been there, the deal would have gone down.

sambb
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by sambb » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:23 am

Car dealer salespeople should definitely try to maximize their profit. They want to retire early also. Why should I begrudge them?

I find the email thing to be slow. I have purchased many many cars. I Just go in and ask for the best price checkbook in hand. I walk out no matter what and tell them I am headed to a competing dealer. Usually I get a call within 5 minutes with the rock bottom price. It has worked for me.

Good luck to the op

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by oldguy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:10 pm

I bought the wife a brand new 2017 Chevy Malibu last week. She was looking at both Toyota Camry and the Chevy. Since this is August of 2017, i was able to ask for and get quotes of 20% off of MSRP from both the Toyota dealership and the Chevy place. I was paying cash, but i don't think that was a factor. 20% off of MSRP is a good deal i think. Careful - if you don't ask, you may be buying a demo car with 3000 miles on it. Ours had 54 miles.

A new gas saving feature on most Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cruze, some jeeps and some fords is what they call auto-shut down. I don't care for it, but i let the wife pick out what she wanted. When you come to a red light, the engine will shut off until you release your foot from the brake and then it will restart.

Most 2017s and more of the 2018s (all brands) now have turbo-charged engines, which i dislike. Seems to me just something more to possibly go haywire. The malibu is turbo-charged. The toyota camrys are not.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by sunny_socal » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:49 pm

I think you just have a nice dealer. But congratulations, it seems like you got a good deal :beer

My "local dealer" couldn't come close to the price I had obtained via the internet. So I drove 30 minutes out of town to pick up my car instead, I would have been willing to pay a few bucks more to stay local. Saved thousands.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by smitcat » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:04 pm

lthenderson wrote:
Alexa9 wrote:Stealerships are not your friends no matter how well they sweet talk you or offer you "free oil changes and car washes."
As I have said, I have a good friend who is a sales associate at one dealership and another who owns a dealership plus a few others acquaintances who work at them. They are good people but get maligned because in order for them to make more money, we have to pay more for our vehicle. I don't fault them for that and I don't think anyone else should. The sales associates who are the front lines at the dealership definitely shouldn't be faulted because not a single one of them that I know are getting anywhere close to rich. It is a high stress job with little reward in my opinion. The dealership owner is a different story but again, they took the risk to start their own business and succeed so who am I to begrudge them getting rewarded.

I think a lot of this bad attitudes towards buying a car at a dealership stem from our society which is largely free from negotiations when purchasing almost everything. Many countries I have been too encourage negotiating on everything down to the price for your banana. For them it is a way of life and nobody feels insulted or having been taken advantage.

This part is where I have a problem with car dealers.....
"I think a lot of this bad attitudes towards buying a car at a dealership stem from our society which is largely free from negotiations when purchasing almost everything. Many countries I have been too encourage negotiating on everything down to the price for your banana. For them it is a way of life and nobody feels insulted or having been taken advantage"

While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled. That is what leads to folks feeling insulted and/or taken advantage of.
And that is what typically happens when you visit a dealer around here.

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:51 pm

smitcat wrote:While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled.
That is fraud and against the law. If they purposely lied to you then you should file charges.

surfstar
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by surfstar » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:28 pm

Its only a fair price when neither side is happy ;)

We drove 4.5 hrs to get my car and I never bothered comparing to TrueCar/etc as my price would have been another 10% less, most likely.
I did spend quite a bit more time and effort than you did, though.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by smitcat » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:56 pm

lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled.
That is fraud and against the law. If they purposely lied to you then you should file charges.
I am sure you are kidding right?

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by Frisco Kid » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:47 pm

+1 for lthenderson's comments. I am in California and he is in Iowa, I agree with him completely.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by jabberwockOG » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:40 pm

The discount from a average retail transaction cost you get purchasing a new car is almost always a linear function of how much time and effort you put into lowering your cost for the transaction by educating yourself on the market, the model and local competitive conditions. 99% of sales folks at most dealerships will do or say anything to make a deal and increase their commission. For the vast majority of these folks selling cars on pure commission salary is a high pressure, brutal dog eat dog job.


Forcing the nearby dealers (using email and phone) to compete with each other is the best way to achieve the lowest cost on a new car purchase but dealer management hates that and they will do everything they can to resist selling cars like that including telling you repeatedly that they don't do business that way (which of course is fiction like virtually everything else they verbally tell you). The ONLY thing you can count on as truth in a retail car transaction is what is in writing on the purchase contract and written warranty.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by munemaker » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:01 pm

lthenderson wrote: $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection.
This stuff is BS. No way I would let a dealer do this to my brand new car. I thought they got rid of this crap years ago.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by smitcat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:21 am

munemaker wrote:
lthenderson wrote: $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection.
This stuff is BS. No way I would let a dealer do this to my brand new car. I thought they got rid of this crap years ago.
Yes agreed - actually if you read the new manuals you will likely see that performing these 'add ons' are not recommended at all by the manufacturer.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by Yooper » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:39 am

smitcat wrote:
munemaker wrote:
lthenderson wrote: $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection.
This stuff is BS. No way I would let a dealer do this to my brand new car. I thought they got rid of this crap years ago.
Yes agreed - actually if you read the new manuals you will likely see that performing these 'add ons' are not recommended at all by the manufacturer.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I don't know anything about "paint and rust proofing protection", but I do know that whatever was in Scotch Guard back in the early 2000's worked remarkably well (I applied it myself after buying the new vehicle). I had a substantial amount of human blood on the front seat. Not Pulp Fiction quantities that required The Cleaner, but enough. After 6 hours it wiped/cleaned up easily. I was very impressed.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by jabberwockOG » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:12 am

Yooper wrote:
smitcat wrote:
munemaker wrote:
lthenderson wrote: $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection.
This stuff is BS. No way I would let a dealer do this to my brand new car. I thought they got rid of this crap years ago.
Yes agreed - actually if you read the new manuals you will likely see that performing these 'add ons' are not recommended at all by the manufacturer.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I don't know anything about "paint and rust proofing protection", but I do know that whatever was in Scotch Guard back in the early 2000's worked remarkably well (I applied it myself after buying the new vehicle). I had a substantial amount of human blood on the front seat. Not Pulp Fiction quantities that required The Cleaner, but enough. After 6 hours it wiped/cleaned up easily. I was very impressed.

It is pretty easy to buy a couple of cans of Scotchguard and apply to cloth seats and all carpeting on a brand new car. Cost for the diy treatment would be about $25 and take maybe an hour. Or you can pay the dealer $250-300 to do the exact same thing.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by bluebolt » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:33 am

DW & I took a hybrid approach and it worked well for us. This was for a new car purchase recently.

Once we knew what car/options we wanted, we went to the online forums for this manufacturer and people there readily share the discounts they are getting off of MSRP. Typical for this car was 4-7%, with some folks reporting 10-12% off.

We went to one dealer and told them what we wanted and that we were ready to buy right then. They offered us about 4% off of MSRP. We told them it wasn't good enough and they said it was the best they could do. We left.

DW went to another dealer and told them we were ready to buy (and happened to mention that she visited the other dealer already). They offered 9% off of MSRP. DW negotiated to 10% and signed the deal right then.

There is so much info online, it's not necessary to email all the nearby dealers anymore, though there's not necessarily harm in doing so (except the incessant email followups). Then, show up at a dealer, let them know you're an informed customer, that you're looking for the best out-the-door price and you'll be an easy & quick sale if they give you the right price. You have a higher likelihood of getting a good deal and they get a quick & easy sale. Win-win.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by jabberwockOG » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:01 am

bluebolt wrote:DW & I took a hybrid approach and it worked well for us. This was for a new car purchase recently.

Once we knew what car/options we wanted, we went to the online forums for this manufacturer and people there readily share the discounts they are getting off of MSRP. Typical for this car was 4-7%, with some folks reporting 10-12% off.

We went to one dealer and told them what we wanted and that we were ready to buy right then. They offered us about 4% off of MSRP. We told them it wasn't good enough and they said it was the best they could do. We left.

DW went to another dealer and told them we were ready to buy (and happened to mention that she visited the other dealer already). They offered 9% off of MSRP. DW negotiated to 10% and signed the deal right then.

There is so much info online, it's not necessary to email all the nearby dealers anymore, though there's not necessarily harm in doing so (except the incessant email followups). Then, show up at a dealer, let them know you're an informed customer, that you're looking for the best out-the-door price and you'll be an easy & quick sale if they give you the right price. You have a higher likelihood of getting a good deal and they get a quick & easy sale. Win-win.

Sounds like you did very well. I'd suggest folks create a "special" one off email address just for bidding purposes on major transactions. It is easy to do in 5 minutes on one of the free web based email services. Delete the account after the transaction or save it for next purchase/negotiation.

smitcat
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by smitcat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:17 am

Yooper wrote:
smitcat wrote:
munemaker wrote:
lthenderson wrote: $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection.
This stuff is BS. No way I would let a dealer do this to my brand new car. I thought they got rid of this crap years ago.
Yes agreed - actually if you read the new manuals you will likely see that performing these 'add ons' are not recommended at all by the manufacturer.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I don't know anything about "paint and rust proofing protection", but I do know that whatever was in Scotch Guard back in the early 2000's worked remarkably well (I applied it myself after buying the new vehicle). I had a substantial amount of human blood on the front seat. Not Pulp Fiction quantities that required The Cleaner, but enough. After 6 hours it wiped/cleaned up easily. I was very impressed.
Yooper - a lot has changed since 2000 for sure. I am just posing the idea of read the actual manufacturers handbook for the car/truck they are interested in before performing any of the 'extras' that may be recommended locally. I know on our newer vehicles they clearly state that paint protections are NOT recommended and give the reasons why. They also point out that typical carpet protections chemicals can work against the coatings that now come with the original carpets and in the handbook it points out what type of carpet protectors are compatible if and when you want to recoat the carpets. FWIW - we just purchase full sets of "weathertec' protectors for us here in the NE for 100% salt and sand protection.
The handbooks are also pretty clear that most typical rustproofing can cause more damage than it protects especially with the newer original coatings in place.
Perhaps best to read the OEM manual before determining what and when you want to do with your new car/truck.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by DaftInvestor » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:27 am

Great story - thanks for sharing. This is similar to what I have done in the past - I research prices and then buy from my local dealership.

tic
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by tic » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:19 am

I ran the two methods in tandem on my last car purchase. I went to one dealer (reputation for high volume and low prices) and negotiated in person. I had already been emailing the other dealers in town for a couple days. I met with the in-person salesman twice, negotiated for over an hour, told him I had better offers elsewhere, had 4 "let me go talk to my manager" breaks, and still came out $700 ahead via on the online method at a dealership 20 miles away.

The in-person salesman called me after I had made the deal at the other dealership and told me he could have beaten that deal by $300 (that is, lowered his own price by $1000) if I had just come in to talk to him ONE more time. I bit my tongue and wished him a nice day.

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:40 am

smitcat wrote:
lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled.
That is fraud and against the law. If they purposely lied to you then you should file charges.
I am sure you are kidding right?
Absolutely serious. Google Auto Dealer Fraud or Auto Fraud. Dealers get prosecuted for what you describe.

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lthenderson
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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:43 am

munemaker wrote:
lthenderson wrote: $700 Scotch Guard interior, exterior paint and rust proofing protection.
This stuff is BS. No way I would let a dealer do this to my brand new car. I thought they got rid of this crap years ago.
I tend to believe that too but what sold me is that it came with a five year warranty. If anything stains the interior and the dealership can't remove it for the next five years, they will replace the stained object for free. With two young kids and a totaled out minivan (due to hail) full of stains that is being replaced, I thought it was worth the price to see how well it works.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by smitcat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:02 am

lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:
lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled.
That is fraud and against the law. If they purposely lied to you then you should file charges.
I am sure you are kidding right?
Absolutely serious. Google Auto Dealer Fraud or Auto Fraud. Dealers get prosecuted for what you describe.
Please let me know how this has worked out for you and/or someone you know.
We have had some positive results by taking misleading/unfulfilled written issues from dealers to the parent auto/truck manufacturer but since many of the lies are specifically kept verbal the average car/truck buyer will never be able to support the issues.
I am curious how it has gone when you have 'filed charges' in the past over any issues in your experience?

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by CULater » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:09 pm

Sort of combined the old and the new way in recent purchase of Honda CRV. Visited Dealer #1 in one city I was staying in, test drove CRV, talked price with the salesman and then left. Then visited Dealer #2 in another city I was staying in, test drove CRV, talked price with salesman and then left. Texted salesman at Dealer #1 and threw the offer I'd gotten from Dealer #2, which he texted back he could beat and did. I then contacted Dealer #3 via website and asked for the best deal they could put together. We went back and forth a bit until I was satisfied they couldn't beat Dealer #1. Dealer #2 never responded to my text. I then accepted the deal from Dealer #1.

You don't have to choose between (a) sitting face-to-face with salesmen vs. (b) e-mail bombing dealerships. There is this thing called texting which gives you a great opportunity to dialog with salespeople you have already contacted and do negotiation that way. It was quick and painless. If I'd wanted to make the effort I could have lined up even more dealer salesmen to negotiate with me, but I was satisfied with the deal I had from #1. Perhaps a combination of all 3 approaches is the way to go? Worked for me.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by warner25 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:54 pm

lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled.
That is fraud and against the law. If they purposely lied to you then you should file charges.
I understand what smitcat is saying. Calling it "fraud" and "against the law" is probably overreaching, but all of my experiences with car dealers have certainly seemed to lack respect, transparency, and forthrightness.

It starts with the price on the sticker which we all know is a lie. So I ask for their best price, and they give me a slightly lower figure. Then I start to walk away and they give me another slightly lower figure, so clearly the previously given "best price" was not their "best price" after all. More lies. After a few iterations of this, maybe I say OK, and then they tack on a bunch of previously undisclosed charges (even though I already asked them at the beginning for the "out the door" price, which I guess they just ignored) which brings everything right back to where we started. And of course all this could easily take hours of back and forth, yet they say that they can't give a price over email because that's a waste of time, even though it would only take a few minutes. Finally, if I buy the car, which they assured me was rock-solid, they proceed to try to selling the extended warranty on the basis that this new car is very likely to throw expensive repairs at me in the first few years. Where do the lies end?

I'm in the market for a car now (new, unfortunately, so I can't just deal with private party sellers), and this time I'm doing it exclusively by email. Most dealers won't talk to me this way, but I'll only buy from those which do. I won't even answer the phone, and I very tersely end the conversation if I answer by accident. I don't like being rude, but this is what car dealerships and salespeople have brought on themselves. The shenanigans are the same, but at least I'm not killing half a day inside each dealership. I don't have to put up with this garbage when I'm buying anything else, so why put up with it for a new car?

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by weltschmerz » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:46 pm

warner25 wrote: I don't have to put up with this garbage when I'm buying anything else, so why put up with it for a new car?
Because you're not buying the car from the manufacturer, you're buying it second hand from a middle-man: The Dealer. Imagine a world in which the car is sold directly from the manufacturer, for a set price, no haggling. Wait..isn't this what Tesla already does? I have never been in a Tesla dealership, but I bet they are no shenanigans, no back and forth, no "let me talk to my manager" BS. Didn't Saturn try this model back in the day as well?

The current model probably won't change any time soon, there's too many jobs dependent on it. Think of all the salesmen and managers that are employed as a result of this ridiculous system. Reminds me of when I drove to Oregon. I stopped at a gas station, hopped out to fill up my tank, and this guys runs over: "Sir please get back in your car, I'll pump it for you." I thought it was a scam. "No thanks buddy." "But sir, it's the law, I have to pump your gas for you." I asked him why such a stupid system existed, and he told me it provides many good jobs for people in his state.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by mega317 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:48 pm

My understanding is most of the lies dealers tell you are legal, and they know the difference. Examples are the car runs great, we did a thorough inspection, and my favorite if you have any problems bring it back and we'll take care of you (the omitted second half of the sentence being "for the same price we'd charge anyone else"). What is illegal are demonstrably false specific claims like "this car had this specific work done on this date or at this mileage" if no such thing happened. So they can and do purposely lie and mislead people, but sometimes they do it illegally and can be sued.

Source: Steve Lehto is a lawyer who specializes in car stuff. He has written for Road and Track and does a podcast which I find interesting since I know very little in this area.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by smitcat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:10 pm

mega317 wrote:My understanding is most of the lies dealers tell you are legal, and they know the difference. Examples are the car runs great, we did a thorough inspection, and my favorite if you have any problems bring it back and we'll take care of you (the omitted second half of the sentence being "for the same price we'd charge anyone else"). What is illegal are demonstrably false specific claims like "this car had this specific work done on this date or at this mileage" if no such thing happened. So they can and do purposely lie and mislead people, but sometimes they do it illegally and can be sued.

Source: Steve Lehto is a lawyer who specializes in car stuff. He has written for Road and Track and does a podcast which I find interesting since I know very little in this area.
Typical brand new car/truck lies (verbal)....
- we are only $500 above our cost
- those options are extra
- yes, that truck has the XX ratio axle
- this sale will be the last this year
- we have this at the lowest price in the area
- this XXX option/protection is needed for this vehicle
- the deal is only good until you leave today

The ones I got in writing that GM made them make good for this year alone:
- Your trade is worth $10 but when I came in for the deal they said it was now $9.50
- They calculated tax on the deal before deducting the agreed GM discount ,local sales tax 8.625%) illegal in NY

FWIW - I only negotiate for a complete out the door price and have them write it up that way. I do not want to know about dealer fees, mandatory options, prep, taxes, trade changes etc after the fact. But they still pursue these methods of doing business on what is in essence a commodity.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:57 pm

CULater wrote:You don't have to choose between (a) sitting face-to-face with salesmen vs. (b) e-mail bombing dealerships.
I absolutely agree with this. My whole point for writing this is that there is an alternative to just doing email bombs which I think aren't effective at getting the lowest price. I think they can and should be part of any strategy but shouldn't be the only strategy. So many people on here and whom I have met in my personal world are literally scared to talk to a car salesperson and classify them as scum of the earth when I have found them to be quite the opposite.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:02 pm

smitcat wrote:
lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:
lthenderson wrote:
smitcat wrote:While I do not have any problems with negotiating for a purchase I do have problems with being purposely lied to and misled.
That is fraud and against the law. If they purposely lied to you then you should file charges.
I am sure you are kidding right?
Absolutely serious. Google Auto Dealer Fraud or Auto Fraud. Dealers get prosecuted for what you describe.
Please let me know how this has worked out for you and/or someone you know.
We have had some positive results by taking misleading/unfulfilled written issues from dealers to the parent auto/truck manufacturer but since many of the lies are specifically kept verbal the average car/truck buyer will never be able to support the issues.
I am curious how it has gone when you have 'filed charges' in the past over any issues in your experience?
I have never had a dealer lie to me and I don't know of anyone else who has. They do "varnish" the truth but that isn't lying and isn't fraud. I guess my advice if you feel they are definitely lying to you verbally is to walk in with a recording device and set it in plain site on the table before negotiating. None of the people I know in the profession would mind that at all.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by lthenderson » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:09 pm

warner25 wrote:this time I'm doing it exclusively by email. Most dealers won't talk to me this way, but I'll only buy from those which do. I won't even answer the phone, and I very tersely end the conversation if I answer by accident. I don't like being rude, but this is what car dealerships and salespeople have brought on themselves. The shenanigans are the same, but at least I'm not killing half a day inside each dealership. I don't have to put up with this garbage when I'm buying anything else, so why put up with it for a new car?
I disagree. I think the consumers have brought it on themselves with the whole email bombing campaign. Dealers know that for every 1000 emails they get they might get one sale. For every 1000 customers that walks in the door, they might get 100 sales. It is common sense to focus their attention on those sales with higher odds. But, they don't give up on the email bombing either because it is much less time and resource consuming. Those that email bomb are counting on odds of getting dealers to compete. So dealers up those odds by forcing people to leave contact information so they can try and talk you down to the dealership where their odds are greater.

I did none of that and so I have no phone calls or emails to be harassed by. I also "killed" only one hour of time at the dealership and not the half day you mentioned above. I'm also guessing the one hour is much less than the time to email bombing and then deal with all the calls and emails that follow for weeks on end. Then to top it off, I get a better price at the end.

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by warner25 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:31 pm

lthenderson wrote:It is common sense to focus their attention on those sales with higher odds... Those that email bomb are counting on odds of getting dealers to compete. So dealers up those odds by forcing people to leave contact information so they can try and talk you down to the dealership where their odds are greater.
Exactly, so I would rather have the odds in my favor than in the dealer's favor. Dealers focus on trying to get people in the door because they know from human history, psychology, and behavioral economics that sales tactics work best in person, and their whole livelihood depends on literally tricking people (with said sales tactics) into buying at the highest possible prices.
lthenderson wrote:Then to top it off, I get a better price at the end.
Maybe you did, or maybe you just let yourself be convinced of this by a good salesman. That is, after all, their job. I think you really can't know if you got a better price because you didn't negotiate prices elsewhere.

Like I said, I'm in the market right now. If I just I walked in and bought the car I want at the closest local dealership, where I did the test-drive, I would be paying almost $5k more than some other quotes I've gotten more recently through email from competing dealers. How can you argue that?

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by CULater » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:43 pm

lthenderson wrote:
CULater wrote:You don't have to choose between (a) sitting face-to-face with salesmen vs. (b) e-mail bombing dealerships.
I absolutely agree with this. My whole point for writing this is that there is an alternative to just doing email bombs which I think aren't effective at getting the lowest price. I think they can and should be part of any strategy but shouldn't be the only strategy. So many people on here and whom I have met in my personal world are literally scared to talk to a car salesperson and classify them as scum of the earth when I have found them to be quite the opposite.
For the most part, the salesmen I worked with were helpful and knowledgeable about the vehicle and it helped the buying process. Maybe I was just lucky but there was not a lot of pressure and I was able to have a good interaction. I think a got a decent price without a lot of unpleasant haggling. I think the texting interaction was particularly quick and painless when we got down to the number and I was serious about buying. Based on that, I'd recommend TD-ing and maybe fishing a little on price and then walking away with the salesman's card with phone number. Then when you're ready to deal just have a good-old texting square dance with the ones you want to follow up on.
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, The foresight to know where you're going, And the insight to know when you've gone too far. ~ Irish Blessing

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by AlwaysBeClimbing » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:44 pm

The Dan wrote:
warner25 wrote: ... Reminds me of when I drove to Oregon. I stopped at a gas station, hopped out to fill up my tank, and this guys runs over: "Sir please get back in your car, I'll pump it for you." I thought it was a scam. "No thanks buddy." "But sir, it's the law, I have to pump your gas for you." I asked him why such a stupid system existed, and he told me it provides many good jobs for people in his state.
Maybe it's just me, but I could never understand the heated(yes, I've seen people spontaneously combust over this topic) desire to pump one's own...gas. Personally, I consider it one of life's small luxuries to have someone do it for me. Saves me having to get out of my car in inclement weather, inhale the aromatic fumes, spill the frothy liquid on my hands and shoes, etc. etc. Back in the old days, there was this concept called a "service station", where a service was actually performed. Keeping a little tradition around isn't a bad thing either in my book. I do allow for the possibility that I am an elitist for having such thoughts. 8-)

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by sco » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:55 am

AlwaysBeClimbing wrote:
The Dan wrote:
warner25 wrote: ... Reminds me of when I drove to Oregon. I stopped at a gas station, hopped out to fill up my tank, and this guys runs over: "Sir please get back in your car, I'll pump it for you." I thought it was a scam. "No thanks buddy." "But sir, it's the law, I have to pump your gas for you." I asked him why such a stupid system existed, and he told me it provides many good jobs for people in his state.
Maybe it's just me, but I could never understand the heated(yes, I've seen people spontaneously combust over this topic) desire to pump one's own...gas. Personally, I consider it one of life's small luxuries to have someone do it for me. Saves me having to get out of my car in inclement weather, inhale the aromatic fumes, spill the frothy liquid on my hands and shoes, etc. etc. Back in the old days, there was this concept called a "service station", where a service was actually performed. Keeping a little tradition around isn't a bad thing either in my book. I do allow for the possibility that I am an elitist for having such thoughts. 8-)

Ah but back in those days there was a Self Service lane as well, so you had a choice... As opposed to a state mandated rule that "creates jobs".

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by koolk2 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:24 pm

I love buying a new car. Typically I never need a new car, I just want one. I'm a professional sales engineer dealing with highly engineered products and spend a great amount of time in my car. When its time for a new car I do my research online including looking at dealerships in a 75 to 100 mile radius. I typically find several vehicles that meet my requirements and email them asking for their best out the door price on a specific stock number. I let them know that I'm in control as the "Buyer" and they must justify their pricing. I enjoy asking the salesman very pointed open ended questions that forces them out of their pat answers. Typically the Sales Manager gets directly involved in the negotiations after a few minutes. My last 2 cars I had a negotiated price before I even went to the dealership. Let them know you're in CHARGE of the deal!

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Re: Buying a Vehicle the Old Fashioned Way

Post by AlwaysBeClimbing » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:58 pm

sco wrote:
AlwaysBeClimbing wrote:
The Dan wrote:
warner25 wrote: ... Reminds me of when I drove to Oregon. I stopped at a gas station, hopped out to fill up my tank, and this guys runs over: "Sir please get back in your car, I'll pump it for you." I thought it was a scam. "No thanks buddy." "But sir, it's the law, I have to pump your gas for you." I asked him why such a stupid system existed, and he told me it provides many good jobs for people in his state.
Maybe it's just me, but I could never understand the heated(yes, I've seen people spontaneously combust over this topic) desire to pump one's own...gas. Personally, I consider it one of life's small luxuries to have someone do it for me. Saves me having to get out of my car in inclement weather, inhale the aromatic fumes, spill the frothy liquid on my hands and shoes, etc. etc. Back in the old days, there was this concept called a "service station", where a service was actually performed. Keeping a little tradition around isn't a bad thing either in my book. I do allow for the possibility that I am an elitist for having such thoughts. 8-)

Ah but back in those days there was a Self Service lane as well, so you had a choice... As opposed to a state mandated rule that "creates jobs".

I guess I'm older than you are, in my day there was no self service lane and somehow people took it in stride. I'm hardly against "choice" but I don't understand the animosity leveled on the requirement to have someone pump your gas. When I was in the Air Force, there were times when the pilots were chomping at the bit to get airborne, but not a one of them ever volunteered to take over the refueling duties. Just don't see the harm in having pump-jockeys, myself. If it's a major deal to you, then just avoid Oregon(I wish more people would :wink: ) and New Jersey, or come with a full tank.

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