Drinking water price craziness

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azurekep
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Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Suddenly, "purified water" is more expensive than "mountain spring water" where I shop.

I've always bought the purified water because it's cheaper and I figured the quality would be consistent. Spring water can vary in quality.

The label on the purified water says that it's "purified by reverse osmosis and/or distillation." In hindsight, I thought it had read reverse osmosis only, and was buying the water on that premise.

So these are the questions.

1. Is distillation just as good as reverse osmosis in removing the undesirable components of water?

2. Assuming the natural environment of the spring hasn't changed, is there any reason why purified water should be more expensive than spring water?

The tap water is bad in our area, so that's the starting point here.

mhalley
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by mhalley » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:25 pm

One answer to high priced bottled water and bad tap water is to filter it yourself. There are plenty of filters out there that probably do the same thing as your store bought. Distillation also removes the good stuff from water.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/37247 ... led-water/
I would say look to get a filter that will make the water taste better, not one that removes everything known to exist.
Maybe pay for a month of consumer reports and read their reviews as there are a lot of outrageous claims out there.
The whole bottled water industry is a huge scam at heart, multiple studies have shoen that most people can't tell the difference between tap and bottled. I imagine they increased the price because they can.
I remember this one show where they had people drinking water from a garden hose and raving about how great it was.
Last edited by mhalley on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pajamas
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Pajamas » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:29 pm

Neither method is perfect as distillation is based on boiling point and reverse osmosis is based on molecule size. Usually distillation is combined with filtration and there may be other steps in the process such as removal of gasses.

If you are mostly worried about the taste of the water, it doesn't matter as long as it tastes good.

I don't buy water because I have excellent tap water from reservoirs (NYC), but have seen machines in grocery stores that will fill your own containers very inexpensively. Have you tried those?

daveydoo
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by daveydoo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:43 pm

azurekep wrote:
1. Is distillation just as good as reverse osmosis in removing the undesirable components of water?
The bottled water thing in the US is nuts. Just nuts. And water is water -- just make sure that it has that 2:1 hydrogen-to-oxygen ratio that your body needs for maximum performance :D . And the trace minerals and/or "electrolytes" that you will get in your fancy water (well, not you but the folks who buy that) -- you'd probably get more from licking a piece of cheese. Once.

To answer your question, need to know what the "undesirables" are; just like with purifying water when camping, it's what you're worried about that matters. If you're on municipal, you can call them but you're generally safe (Detroit, blah, blah, blah, I know). If you're on a well, you'd need to get testing. But for 99% of us, I think a Brita or equivalent is fine. I drink almost only water and pretty much only from the tap in every town or city I've Iived in over many, many decades.

But whether RO or carbon or distillation is better -- depends on what you need. I'm "responsible" for water purity on a large scale as part of my job. Sand/filters will remove particulates, RO will remove ions, carbon will adsorb organics (like the ubiquitous waste-water pharmaceuticals), distillation will bring along volatile organics (I presume). Easy to look up best method for what you're scared of. My only specific concern at home -- not at work -- had been lead (had our water tested when kids were little).
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by sport » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:50 pm

If you insist on drinking bottled water, Costco has excellent prices. They sell it by the case. They have their own brand as well as other recognizable brands.

azurekep
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:53 pm

mhalley wrote:Distillation also removes the good stuff from water.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/37247 ... led-water/
Thanks for that. I just tested the pH. The purified water is 6 (acidic) and the spring water is 7 (neutral).

I'm definitely going with the spring water now.

FWIW, the purified water "adds selected minerals for taste", but that's apparently not enough to bring the pH into normal levels.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by hicabob » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:57 pm

Years ago at mega-corp I used to work next to a friend's chem lab and he had high quality distilled water on tap. It was OK for coffee but not very pleasant to drink straight. The minerals and what-not give water some taste that distilled lacks but distilled is more "pure" than RO water and should be really close to 7 in PH.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by runner3081 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:00 pm

azurekep wrote: The tap water is bad in our area, so that's the starting point here.
Ours is terrible as well (tap water), north of Phoenix. We have a GE reverse osmosis system and it works great. Would never buy bottled water. Even with the waste the system goes through for the final product, much cheaper and more convenient than buying bottles (also better for the environment).

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by 22twain » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:04 pm

daveydoo wrote:If you're on municipal, you can call them but you're generally safe (Detroit, blah, blah, blah, I know).
Detroit's water is OK, as far as I know. Its neighbor Flint got into trouble when it stopped buying water from Detroit and started taking it from the Flint River instead, to save money.
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by daveydoo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:22 pm

azurekep wrote: Thanks for that. I just tested the pH. The purified water is 6 (acidic) and the spring water is 7 (neutral).

I'm definitely going with the spring water now.
So this is why bottled water is so expensive. Because it can be. Because people are willing to pay for nonsense claims and nonsense "benefits." You know that pH is a log scale, right? One drop of orange juice (pH ~ 3) would bring a glass of your pH 7 spring water down to pH 6. Pretty scary, right? And your body, if it chose to our needed to, could probably eliminate that acid in less than one breath. Or a few drops of a pH 5 urine. Do you pH all your foods? :D

Heavy metals are one thing -- but all the BS about pH and minerals and electrolytes in drinking water -- even the people who make this stuff (well, especially those people) are just laughing at you.
22twain wrote: Detroit's water is OK, as far as I know. Its neighbor Flint got into trouble when it stopped buying water from Detroit and started taking it from the Flint River instead, to save money.
Sorry -- you're of course right. Family member in Detroit so I lump them together!
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by furikake » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:31 pm

You're filling up your body with BPA whenever you drink from the plastic bottle you buy your water in. Just get a filter and filter your own water. Our water here tastes bad in the summer, but we have an RO system installed, water has no taste at all coming out from the RO system.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by mhalley » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 pm

There is a whole pseudoscience about "alkaline" water, don't worry about the waters pH. Your kidneys have evolved and/or been created to maintain an optimal pH of your body.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Watty » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:42 pm

One thing to try to figure out is where the distilled water is actually coming from.

It would take a LOT of energy to boil a gallon of water to distill it just sell so I always assumed that it was a byproduct of something like a power plant or a chemical refinery where they create steam for some other reason. That is fine for putting in your cloths iron but I don't know if I would if I would want to drink it all the time.

I just tried to Google it to find out and I didn't see anything obvious about where the distilled water in the store comes from so you might look into that more.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by iamlucky13 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:24 pm

If you're regularly drinking non-tap water and price is a concern, take the production of that water into your own hands: get an under-sink reverse osmosis system or get your own water still.

Spring water you can't take into your own hands if that's what you want, but there might at least be a store in your area that sells spring water in quantities larger than single serve for a far lower price.
azurekep wrote:
mhalley wrote:Distillation also removes the good stuff from water.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/37247 ... led-water/
Thanks for that. I just tested the pH. The purified water is 6 (acidic) and the spring water is 7 (neutral).

I'm definitely going with the spring water now.

FWIW, the purified water "adds selected minerals for taste", but that's apparently not enough to bring the pH into normal levels.
6 is in the normal range. It's simply not neutral.

Adding minerals is bound to alter the pH. You can then add more minerals like baking soda to neutralize it again.

Natural water mineral content varies wildly by region. The suggestion that you can maintain proper mineral intake simply though a certain type of water sounds off, because it should result in regional variations in adequate mineral intake. You should in general make sure you're eating a wide variety of the recommended food groups. Beyond that, it would be difficult to reliably ascertain more without having occasional blood tests to determine if you should take mineral supplements, or perhaps as an alternative, seek out water with a controlled level of specific minerals.

Livestrong usually is not a bad resource, but in this case I'm concerned that they suggested the WHO concluded distilled water results in mineral deficiencies, but the wording of the statement leaves wide open the seemingly more plausible possibility that distilled water simply removes essential minerals, without establishing whether or not people who drink distilled water are more likely to have a mineral deficiency. Unfortunately, they did not link to the WHO research. I'm significantly more concerned that they invoked the "acidic diet" nonsense.

At least they had the integrity to write "some believe" rather than to purport that they were making any sort of medical claim. We're not talking about acidic water dissolving lead pipes like in Flint here, where the pH is incidental, but the lead is the real problem. We're talking about the factually false claim that the human body is unable to regulate pH. I've noticed this belief being promoted on social media an increasing amount recently by some of the same people who were previously convinced vaccines cause autism.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Yooper » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:40 pm

Watty wrote:One thing to try to figure out is where the distilled water is actually coming from.

It would take a LOT of energy to boil a gallon of water to distill it just sell so I always assumed that it was a byproduct of something like a power plant or a chemical refinery where they create steam for some other reason. That is fine for putting in your cloths iron but I don't know if I would if I would want to drink it all the time.

I just tried to Google it to find out and I didn't see anything obvious about where the distilled water in the store comes from so you might look into that more.
Durastill. For two decades overseas all my water came from it. Didn't notice much of a taste difference. No real choice though. Sure it was a electricity hog, and certainly heated up (or "hotted up" as the Brits would say) the kitchen. But never had one go bad.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by iamlucky13 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:22 pm

Watty wrote:One thing to try to figure out is where the distilled water is actually coming from.

It would take a LOT of energy to boil a gallon of water to distill it just sell so I always assumed that it was a byproduct of something like a power plant or a chemical refinery where they create steam for some other reason. That is fine for putting in your cloths iron but I don't know if I would if I would want to drink it all the time.

I just tried to Google it to find out and I didn't see anything obvious about where the distilled water in the store comes from so you might look into that more.
If you're concerned that a water distillery using waste heat would simply condense steam coming out of a turbine or oil refinery, contaminated with oil constituents, rust preventers, or other such substances, then don't worry. There's not just health reasons for not doing so, but also engineering reasons.

Rather if anything, they'd use a heat exchanger that transfers the heat across completely separate piping systems.

Also, while it's true that tap water is more stringently regulated than bottled water, the way that has been reported on by media has given quite a few people the impression that bottled water is effectively unregulated. It actually has similar contaminant regulations as tap water. The main difference is tap water is required to be tested multiple times a year, but bottled water is not, so consumers are largely dependent on third party testing like that done by Environmental Working Group if they want confirmation the water meets the federal regulations.

Regardless, I'm guessing the most likely way most water distillers work is running their own completely separate heat system using natural gas, just like anybody with a gas stove would use it to boil water for tea.

At the price you or I would pay for natural gas, it would cost 10-15 cents per gallon. At industrial prices, it's more like 5 cents a gallon.

In reality though, since they need to cool that steam to get it to condense back into purified water, they'd run it through a heat exchanger that does so by preheating the incoming cold water to be treated. Their real energy cost is probably close to a penny per gallon.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by blaugranamd » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:39 pm

Weird coincidence, but I was just reading this thread then made my way to Slickdeals and saw this reverse osmosis system for sale on the Front Page. Can't vouch for it, but talk about coincidence!

https://slickdeals.net/f/10433348-ispri ... ee-shippin
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:43 pm

daveydoo wrote:
azurekep wrote: Thanks for that. I just tested the pH. The purified water is 6 (acidic) and the spring water is 7 (neutral).

I'm definitely going with the spring water now.
So this is why bottled water is so expensive. Because it can be. Because people are willing to pay for nonsense claims and nonsense "benefits." You know that pH is a log scale, right? One drop of orange juice (pH ~ 3) would bring a glass of your pH 7 spring water down to pH 6.
I have my reasons for wanting neutral vs acidic water, but it's not for any claims or benefits that are in marketing literature. In fact, I have never seen pH used as a marketing pitch. It's just a personal choice. I'll leave it at that. ;)
Heavy metals are one thing -- but all the BS about pH and minerals and electrolytes in drinking water -- even the people who make this stuff (well, especially those people) are just laughing at you.
Again, pH is not why I started this thread. Heavy metals and other toxic substances are. But given some immediate information of value (to me personally), i.e., pH, I'm willing to make that switch right now.

But it is really the toxic chemicals and metals that I'm concerned about.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:50 pm

furikake wrote:You're filling up your body with BPA whenever you drink from the plastic bottle you buy your water in. Just get a filter and filter your own water. Our water here tastes bad in the summer, but we have an RO system installed, water has no taste at all coming out from the RO system.
I realize that. For simplicity's sake, I'm not telling the whole story. That ultimately is coming back to haunt me. :mrgreen:.

Let's just say there are two properties being dealt with here. One has an under-the-sink RO system, the other does not.

It's the latter I'm addressing here, which does not have the RO system. The choice then is between two plastic water jugs - one from a supposed mountain spring, the other from a RO/distillation process.

Sorry for the confusion, but hopefully this clarifies my framing of the problem not to include an in-house system.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by unclescrooge » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:02 pm

mhalley wrote:There is a whole pseudoscience about "alkaline" water, don't worry about the waters pH. Your kidneys have evolved and/or been created to maintain an optimal pH of your body.
Some quack on the radio stated with great confidence that acidic water is what causes cancer. I can see how a lot of people would just accept that at face value.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:06 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
6 is in the normal range. It's simply not neutral.
Our tap water is 7. I've always heard that called neutral.

At least for a swimming pool, 6 is considered acid.
Natural water mineral content varies wildly by region. The suggestion that you can maintain proper mineral intake simply though a certain type of water sounds off, because it should result in regional variations in adequate mineral intake.
No, that's not the reason I'm avoiding "acidic" water.

I guess I'm going to be forced into this. ;) The reason I want neutral or basic water is to avoid cavities. The dentist advised me to drink water at the end of meals when a toothbrush isn't handy. It's basically to dilute the acid coming from normal food. I don't actually eat the kind of foods that should cause cavities, it's just my individual chemistry.

There. I said it. :)

Hopefully, I won't get any more replies about quackery or false health claims, or the benefits of minerals. Anyone who wants to argue with my dentist can take it up with him. ;)

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:11 pm

blaugranamd wrote:Weird coincidence, but I was just reading this thread then made my way to Slickdeals and saw this reverse osmosis system for sale on the Front Page. Can't vouch for it, but talk about coincidence!

https://slickdeals.net/f/10433348-ispri ... ee-shippin
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by gwrvmd » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:33 pm

Indexed Annuities, lottery tickets and bottled water all have approximately the same value.....Gordon
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by iamlucky13 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:43 pm

azurekep wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Natural water mineral content varies wildly by region. The suggestion that you can maintain proper mineral intake simply though a certain type of water sounds off, because it should result in regional variations in adequate mineral intake.
No, that's not the reason I'm avoiding "acidic" water.

I guess I'm going to be forced into this. ;) The reason I want neutral or basic water is to avoid cavities. The dentist advised me to drink water at the end of meals when a toothbrush isn't handy. It's basically to dilute the acid coming from normal food. I don't actually eat the kind of foods that should cause cavities, it's just my individual chemistry.

There. I said it. :)

Hopefully, I won't get any more replies about quackery or false health claims, or the benefits of minerals. Anyone who wants to argue with my dentist can take it up with him. ;)
Sorry. I thought you were responding out of concern at the implication made by the Livestrong site. As a general principle, rinsing with a non-acidic beverage after eating, especially acidic or sugary foods, sounds very reasonable.

But your dentist actually said a pH of 6 was too acidic? Other sources I'm seeing indicate levels of concern from beverages ranging from 4 to 5.
Last edited by iamlucky13 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by iamlucky13 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:45 pm

Edit - duplicate post. Please remove.
Last edited by iamlucky13 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Wakefield1 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 pm

Pajamas wrote:Neither method is perfect as distillation is based on boiling point and reverse osmosis is based on molecule size. Usually distillation is combined with filtration and there may be other steps in the process such as removal of gasses.

If you are mostly worried about the taste of the water, it doesn't matter as long as it tastes good.

I don't buy water because I have excellent tap water from reservoirs (NYC), but have seen machines in grocery stores that will fill your own containers very inexpensively. Have you tried those?
I have heard that the New York City area actually has water via more than 100 miles of aqueduct from the far away pristine headwaters of the Hudson and/or Mohawk Rivers. The fishy tasting water in the Washington D.C. area comes out of the local river (not from far up headwaters).
I understand either from the dam structure just upstream from Great Falls or the "Brookmont" dam which is just a mile or two above Chain Bridge.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Wakefield1 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:06 pm

I was trying to test pH of our Arlington water from Dalecarlia treatment plant several years ago,it seemed to run about 8. (Was working at the local Rose Garden at the time)
For mixing certain insecticide sprays as for roses they want the water at a lower pH than that,there is/was a product called Indicate 5 which is acidic,has detergent (needed as a spreader/sticker for the spray). When enough of that is added to the water to get the pH down to about 5 the mixture begins to show a pink color. If the mixture is still alkaline it looks clear (except for other ingredients added to the spray mix) (Some insecticides degrade fairly rapidly in alkaline pH)
I think normal saliva is supposed to be pH no lower than 7
I guess if you wanted to guess and not spend the money for Indicate 5 you could put a little vinegar into the spray water

I suspect the engineers at the water treatment plant try to maintain a consistent pH of the water,perhaps they want it slightly above 7 because of issues of trying to avoid corrosion in the mains and/or trying to engineer the water to produce a slight coating effect in the mains/pipes to discourage metal solution into the water
Last edited by Wakefield1 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by iamlucky13 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:29 pm

furikake wrote:You're filling up your body with BPA whenever you drink from the plastic bottle you buy your water in. Just get a filter and filter your own water. Our water here tastes bad in the summer, but we have an RO system installed, water has no taste at all coming out from the RO system.
Not from polyethylene bottles you don't, which most water bottles are some variety of. You get BPA from poly-BPA bottles, the most common type of polycarbonate.

Likewise, you don't get exposed to BPA from the polyamide and polysulfone plastics that make up the membrane of your reverse osmosis system.

That's leaving aside the question of whether or not the levels of BPA exposure that occur from practices like using polycarbonate water bottles, which are getting hard to find these days anyways, actually causes any adverse long term effects.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Wakefield1 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:41 pm

Some of the best tasting well water I ever encountered was said to be extremely hard water which didn't work well in clothes washing machines.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:18 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:

Sorry. I thought you were responding out of concern at the implication made by the Livestrong site.
Yeah, sorry. I followed the Livestrong link, but as soon as I hit the part about pH, I stopped reading -- because it was something of immediate interest to me and I wanted to act on it. I now realize people were responding to what was in the whole article, which I still haven't read. :mrgreen:
As a general principle, rinsing with a non-acidic beverage after eating, especially acidic or sugary foods, sounds very reasonable.
Yes.
But your dentist actually said a pH of 6 was too acidic? Other sources I'm seeing indicate levels of concern from beverages ranging from 4 to 5.
Specific pH levels weren't addressed. That involves some of my own reading between the lines. But I figured why chase acid with acid?

Having had a pre-dental roommate in college, it was drilled into me that 20 minutes after eating, the bacteria start doing their damage. The more acidic the environment, the more aggressive they are. So if given a choice between acidic or non-acidic water, I'll choose the latter. :)

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by weltschmerz » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:37 pm

azurekep wrote: I guess I'm going to be forced into this. ;) The reason I want neutral or basic water is to avoid cavities. The dentist advised me to drink water at the end of meals when a toothbrush isn't handy. It's basically to dilute the acid coming from normal food. I don't actually eat the kind of foods that should cause cavities, it's just my individual chemistry.
Interesting timing of this thread. I have tooth sensitivity, and since low pH can erode enamel, I was pHing a few of the beverages I normally drink. Turns out Aquafina water is pH 5, which I found surprisingly low. My tap water is pH 8, so I'll start drinking more of that. I had also been drinking these new flavored carbonated drinks from Aquafina, since they are refreshing and have no sugar. They were below pH 4, so those are off my list now.

For bottled water, I have read that Crystal Geyser is pH 7, but I haven't tried it yet.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by munemaker » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:56 pm

gwrvmd wrote:Indexed Annuities, lottery tickets and bottled water all have approximately the same value.....Gordon
Bottled water does have value. The value is in its packaging, convenience and portability. When I go out walking or hiking, I can take a chilled bottle of water with me. If I am at an event, I can easily buy a bottle of cold water. So how does that not have value?

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by mega317 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:13 am

It's more handy to carry around water of a specific pH than a toothbrush?

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by squirm » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:21 am

I buy bottled water because i can throw it in the fridge and then bring it with me wherever I'm going. Convenience.

We're in a well and have a ro tap.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:01 am

mega317 wrote:It's more handy to carry around water of a specific pH than a toothbrush?
Look at it this way.

Order of preference (within 20 minutes of eating):

1. Brushing
2. Drinking non-acidic water
3. Drinking whatever water is available
4. Drinking no water

Sometimes #3 is the most convenient. The water may be slightly acidic (e.g., pH 6). But I'd choose it over #4, if only because it would rinse away sugar, etc..

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:25 am

The Dan wrote: Turns out Aquafina water is pH 5, which I found surprisingly low.
That's amazing. I'm not sure how they can get away with calling that water.

If you're going to drink something with a pH 5, you might as well drink something fun like beer. :P

Okay, so beer is more like 3.5 - 4, but still...

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:07 am

munemaker wrote:
gwrvmd wrote:Indexed Annuities, lottery tickets and bottled water all have approximately the same value.....Gordon
Bottled water does have value. The value is in its packaging, convenience and portability. When I go out walking or hiking, I can take a chilled bottle of water with me. If I am at an event, I can easily buy a bottle of cold water. So how does that not have value?
Yes. Unless of course we brought our own reusable bottles and filled them from drinking fountains. Many venues make that difficult or impossible.

Very few disposable plastic bottles are recycled. The rest sit in th e environment for centuries. Those which wind up in the ocean break down into smaller bits which are ingested by marine creatures and so enter the food chain.

After single use plastic bags plastic bottles are the next environmental frontier. Britain has managed an over 50 per cent reduction in plastic bag use simply by charging 5 pence for a bag. Ireland 90 percent. A deposit system on plastic bottles may have similar effects.

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munemaker
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by munemaker » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:12 am

Valuethinker wrote:
munemaker wrote:
gwrvmd wrote:Indexed Annuities, lottery tickets and bottled water all have approximately the same value.....Gordon
Bottled water does have value. The value is in its packaging, convenience and portability. When I go out walking or hiking, I can take a chilled bottle of water with me. If I am at an event, I can easily buy a bottle of cold water. So how does that not have value?
Yes. Unless of course we brought our own reusable bottles and filled them from drinking fountains. Many venues make that difficult or impossible.

Very few disposable plastic bottles are recycled. The rest sit in the environment for centuries. Those which wind up in the ocean break down into smaller bits which are ingested by marine creatures and so enter the food chain.

After single use plastic bags plastic bottles are the next environmental frontier. Britain has managed an over 50 per cent reduction in plastic bag use simply by charging 5 pence for a bag. Ireland 90 percent. A deposit system on plastic bottles may have similar effects.
You are probably right in what you say. I don't consider the environmental aspects in my decision making.

I look at it from a cost/benefit perspective, and I find value in paying for bottled water. Yes, you can pack your own water to take some places. You can pack your own food too if you like. When you do that though, you are giving up convenience. Recently I have purchased bottled water as low as 10 cents per bottle. That's a pretty low price for convenience. It is not worth it to me to fill my own water containers when I can buy bottled water so economically.

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by DaftInvestor » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:21 am

sport wrote:If you insist on drinking bottled water, Costco has excellent prices. They sell it by the case. They have their own brand as well as other recognizable brands.
It's not my intention to derail the thread but why does everyone in bogleheads make these statements as if everyone has access to a Costco?

AlwaysaQ
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by AlwaysaQ » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:25 am

In June my two nieces and I flew to Georgia. We returned to a boil water alert. I was very glad my one niece had extra bottles of water and that she gave me some. I need to get some more to keep in the house for emergencies.

mega317
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by mega317 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:24 am

azurekep wrote:
mega317 wrote:It's more handy to carry around water of a specific pH than a toothbrush?
Look at it this way.

Order of preference (within 20 minutes of eating):

1. Brushing
2. Drinking non-acidic water
3. Drinking whatever water is available
4. Drinking no water

Sometimes #3 is the most convenient. The water may be slightly acidic (e.g., pH 6). But I'd choose it over #4, if only because it would rinse away sugar, etc..
The whole thread is based on the fact that #2 is preferential to #3. But under what circumstance would you have access to #2 but not #1?
Let's just say there are two properties being dealt with here. One has an under-the-sink RO system, the other does not.

It's the latter I'm addressing here, which does not have the RO system. The choice then is between two plastic water jugs - one from a supposed mountain spring, the other from a RO/distillation process.
What about a toothbrush at the second property?

lazydavid
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by lazydavid » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:57 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
sport wrote:If you insist on drinking bottled water, Costco has excellent prices. They sell it by the case. They have their own brand as well as other recognizable brands.
It's not my intention to derail the thread but why does everyone in bogleheads make these statements as if everyone has access to a Costco?
The overwhelming majority of folks have access to a warehouse club of some sort, and for most things where people say Costco, you can easily substitute Sam's Club or BJs. There will always be exceptions, but that doesn't make the information less valuable to everybody else. My wife doesn't like the taste of the water at the office, so we buy cases of water at Sam's club. 40 half-liter bottles costs just $3.28. I find that a completely reasonable alternative to her being constantly dehydrated.

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dm200
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by dm200 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:01 am

I refuse, in almost all situations, to use bottled water. I believe that tap water, in 99%+ locations is just as safe (or safer) than bottled water.

AlwaysBeClimbing
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by AlwaysBeClimbing » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:41 am

I use a PUR filter + pitcher and reusable water bottles. It's cheap, produces very clean water and improves the taste. Our tap water is already of fairly high quality, so it's mainly for taste and so I replace the filters every four months instead of the recommended two. I buy a three pack at Wallyworld for around $15, which is coincidentally my annual water purification cost. Did I say cheap? I see people buying bottle water and don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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munemaker
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by munemaker » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:57 am

dm200 wrote:I refuse, in almost all situations, to use bottled water. I believe that tap water, in 99%+ locations is just as safe (or safer) than bottled water.
Bottled water is not about the water quality (to me). I do not buy bottled water because I have any illusions it is better than most tap water. In a similar fashion, you can say the food you have at home is as good or better than what you buy out. Still, when you are out somewhere, you may buy food at a food truck or fast food joint. It is not about the quality, but rather the convenience.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by avalpert » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:51 pm

munemaker wrote:
dm200 wrote:I refuse, in almost all situations, to use bottled water. I believe that tap water, in 99%+ locations is just as safe (or safer) than bottled water.
Bottled water is not about the water quality (to me). I do not buy bottled water because I have any illusions it is better than most tap water. In a similar fashion, you can say the food you have at home is as good or better than what you buy out. Still, when you are out somewhere, you may buy food at a food truck or fast food joint. It is not about the quality, but rather the convenience.
I honestly do not see how carrying bottled water is ever more convenient than carrying a bottle of water filled from a tap at home - at least for your first example of walking or hiking. When out at an event maybe there is some convenience to not having to carry the bottle with you there but only around the event after you pay for it - of course at most events you are paying quite a premium for that very small convenience (well above the normal premium you pay for a disposable plastic bottle filled with water) and you give up the convenience of having the water in time/place when you want it, not just when it is available for sale.

azurekep
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by azurekep » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:18 pm

mega317 wrote:
azurekep wrote:
mega317 wrote:It's more handy to carry around water of a specific pH than a toothbrush?
Look at it this way.

Order of preference (within 20 minutes of eating):

1. Brushing
2. Drinking non-acidic water
3. Drinking whatever water is available
4. Drinking no water

Sometimes #3 is the most convenient. The water may be slightly acidic (e.g., pH 6). But I'd choose it over #4, if only because it would rinse away sugar, etc..
The whole thread is based on the fact that #2 is preferential to #3. But under what circumstance would you have access to #2 but not #1?
My actual intention was to focus on avoiding heavy metals and toxic chemicals in water, but I didn't make that clear. ;) So we're onto a second order of things, namely keeping one's teeth cavity-free.

I think I can answer your question best by saying that I work in a relatively theft-free office, so I can safely (i.e., without fear of filching) keep a one-gallon jug of water on hand and pour the water into a mug as needed. I could brush my teeth after lunch, and some of my colleagues do, but I don't. I'm okay with the water vs brushing, and since I'm bringing the water in, I know the pH level is in the acceptable range.

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munemaker
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by munemaker » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:39 pm

avalpert wrote:I honestly do not see how carrying bottled water is ever more convenient than carrying a bottle of water filled from a tap at home - at least for your first example of walking or hiking.
The convenience is: If I decide to go for say, a 3 mile walk on a warm day. I grab a cold bottle of water from the fridge (I don't have to fill a bottle). When the bottle is consumed on my walk, I can just dispose of it in an appropriate public waste container and not carry it home with me. When arriving home, I don't have to clean it. That is a summary of the convenience to me. Admittedly small convenience, but also small price.

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vitaflo
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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by vitaflo » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:45 pm

The Dan wrote:Turns out Aquafina water is pH 5, which I found surprisingly low.
This doesn't surprise me. A long time ago we used some extra Aquafina to fill a small fish tank (with one small fish). The fish died shortly thereafter. Never drank Aquafina again.

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Re: Drinking water price craziness

Post by spectec » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:58 pm

I've always found it interesting than "Evian" spelled backwards is "Naive".
Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. - Will Rogers

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