Brake Pads and Rotors for 2011 Benz C300 4Matic?

[dollarsaver]

HI all,
Technician at MB told me pads and rotors need to be replaced. Not a surprise at 68k. Can't get a straight story on ceramic or semi metallic. He's calling me back to let me know what OEM is for the car.
I have no intention of having MB do this work. Live in New England so it gets cold. Should I be looking for ceramic or semi-metallic pads? Any special rotor or are replacements basically the same?

Appreciate any and all replies. Thanks in advance

[barnaclebob]

Are you sure you even need the rotors replaced? If there is no pulsing, deep grooves, and they are above the minimum thickness then they shouldn't need to be replaced.

Even if there is pulsing or grooves, there may still be room to have them turned on a lathe to true them back up.

[sunny_socal]

I always replace my rotors when they begin to pulse, I don't do the resurfacing any more. At least for Japanese vehicles it's actually less expensive to just use new parts.

Look here:
http://www.rockauto.com/

They have tons of options even for your MB, $15-$75 per wheel depending on how much you'd like to spend.

I also do it myself, it's one of the easiest maintenance procedures. But I understand not everyone is willing/able to turn a wrench, or perhaps they lack the time/space.

[dollarsaver]

I always replace my rotors when they begin to pulse, I don't do the resurfacing any more. At least for Japanese vehicles it's actually less expensive to just use new parts.

Look here:
http://www.rockauto.com/

They have tons of options even for your MB, $15-$75 per wheel depending on how much you'd like to spend.

I also do it myself, it's one of the easiest maintenance procedures. But I understand not everyone is willing/able to turn a wrench, or perhaps they lack the time/space.

I admire your skill set here. I'm just not skilled in this area. Any ideas on whether ceramic or semi-metallic is best for New England?

[barnaclebob]

I always replace my rotors when they begin to pulse, I don't do the resurfacing any more. At least for Japanese vehicles it's actually less expensive to just use new parts.

Its $10 or $12 to have a rotor turned at O'Reilly's. I wouldn't want any rotor that cheap on my car. Sorry OP, I haven't done any research on what kind of pad is best. If you liked how the OEM felt, then I would stick with that. 68k miles is pretty good for a brake pad too.

[onourway]

If you have been happy with the noise, feel, and dust levels of the stock components I would be inclined to remain with OEM parts - even if you buy them online for cheaper and have an independent mechanic install them.

I agree though that I just generally replace rotors when I replace pads these days. In New England winters the rotors take a beating and it's nice to have completely smooth brakes after you do the work. Worth the money IMO.

[neilpilot]

This is an easy DIY job on your car. Also, I'd be willing to bet that at your mileage the rotors are below minimum thickness (the measurement is stamped on the rotor).

You haven't said, but I'm going to make the assumption that it's your front brakes. You really should consider visiting a Mercedes Owner website. Having said that, I believe your OEM pads are ceramic. I drive a 2002 C240, and changed front rotors and pads at 87k miles. I bought Centric C-Tec rotors (paid $52 for BOTH on Amazon back in 2013), and Wagner ceramic pads. That was 4 years ago, and brakes are fine at 130k miles.

Be sure to buy a wear sensor; my C240 only requires 1 but you might need 2. Also, take the time to properly bed your new brake pads immediately after installation. This is often not done, even by the dealer's shop, and it's critical to prevent disc glazing and reduced braking going forward.

[Swansea]

The tech should know what pads are used on your car. Rotors are now lighter (fuel economy issue/weight) so often need replacement, rather than being turned. The specs on the thickness will dictate on whether or not they need to be turned or replaced.

[dollarsaver]

If you have been happy with the noise, feel, and dust levels of the stock components I would be inclined to remain with OEM parts - even if you buy them online for cheaper and have an independent mechanic install them.

I agree though that I just generally replace rotors when I replace pads these days. In New England winters the rotors take a beating and it's nice to have completely smooth brakes after you do the work. Worth the money IMO.

Here's the problem: MB dealer had no idea whether ceramic or metallic is on the car now!! I was surprised to say the least. I do know that on previous cars with lots of dust on wheel probably had metallic pads. No dust on these but I'm not sure.

[dollarsaver]

This is an easy DIY job on your car. Also, I'd be willing to bet that at your mileage the rotors are below minimum thickness (the measurement is stamped on the rotor).

You haven't said, but I'm going to make the assumption that it's your front brakes. You really should consider visiting a Mercedes Owner website. Having said that, I believe your OEM pads are ceramic. I drive a 2002 C240, and changed front rotors and pads at 87k miles. I bought Centric C-Tec rotors (paid $52 for BOTH on Amazon back in 2013), and Wagner ceramic pads. That was 4 years ago, and brakes are fine at 130k miles.

Be sure to buy a wear sensor; my C240 only requires 1 but you might need 2. Also, take the time to properly bed your new brake pads immediately after installation. This is often not done, even by the dealer's shop, and it's critical to prevent disc glazing and reduced braking going forward.

Thanks for all the information. I am not able to do this; so, I have to rely on the mechanic to do a good job. Is bedding something I do? I do know to be easy on the brakes for a while. Don't know what a "while" is here. I need all 4 wheels done. Measurements were done on the pads. Front measured 4/32 and rear 3/32.

[Swansea]

Check this out from the Tire Rack. Ceramic will be more expensive, but they are an improvement over semi metallic.

https://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/te ... ?techid=88

[dollarsaver]

Check this out from the Tire Rack. Ceramic will be more expensive, but they are an improvement over semi metallic.

https://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/te ... ?techid=88

Fantastic. So glad to get a good article on this. Can't believe the service rep at the dealer did not know. He actually checked on this, called back and had no idea. Hmmm. Thanks so much.

[neilpilot]

Thanks for all the information. I am not able to do this; so, I have to rely on the mechanic to do a good job. Is bedding something I do? I do know to be easy on the brakes for a while. Don't know what a "while" is here. I need all 4 wheels done. Measurements were done on the pads. Front measured 4/32 and rear 3/32.

Pad measurements are usually quoted in mm, not inches. Your's are 2-3mm, so definitely ready for new pads. Where did you hear that you need "to be easy on the brakes for a while"? The new brake pads need to be bedded ASAP after installation, since even a little driving without properly bedding the pads can result in uneven deposition on the new rotors. Bedding is very easy, and you can do this immediately after the repair if the mechanic isn't so inclined. Example:
http://brakeperformance.com/bedding-in-rotors.php

[dollarsaver]

Thanks for all the information. I am not able to do this; so, I have to rely on the mechanic to do a good job. Is bedding something I do? I do know to be easy on the brakes for a while. Don't know what a "while" is here. I need all 4 wheels done. Measurements were done on the pads. Front measured 4/32 and rear 3/32.

Pad measurements are usually quoted in mm, not inches. Your's are 2-3mm, so definitely ready for new pads. Where did you hear that you need "to be easy on the brakes for a while"? The new brake pads need to be bedded ASAP after installation, since even a little driving without properly bedding the pads can result in uneven deposition on the new rotors. Bedding is very easy, and you can do this immediately after the repair if the mechanic isn't so inclined. Example:
http://brakeperformance.com/bedding-in-rotors.php

I've copied this article and will definitely do this. Don't remember where I heard about taking it easy. Still learning. Thanks

[barnaclebob]

I want to know where suburbanites or city dwellers find a road to do these multiple braking runs to bed the brakes.

[neilpilot]

I want to know where suburbanites or city dwellers find a road to do these multiple braking runs to bed the brakes.

In my case, I live on a circle in a gated community and it's generally really easy. I thnk the link I posted is a bit more aggressive than the procedure I used last time, since I don't recall going much above 45mph. Just google "bed new brake pads" to find a better (i.e. less aggressive) sequence. The point is to go thru some repetitive braking cycles, to get the rotors sufficiently hot to deposit an even film on your new rotors.

Since the OP is in New England, maybe he's best served by Tom & Ray: http://www.cartalk.com/content/i-am-abo ... ke-pads-my

[Jack FFR1846]

I want to know where suburbanites or city dwellers find a road to do these multiple braking runs to bed the brakes.

Approaching a red light.

[barnaclebob]

I want to know where suburbanites or city dwellers find a road to do these multiple braking runs to bed the brakes.

Approaching a red light.

That wont be enough to get them heated up sufficiently. I suppose one could always ride the brakes for a little bit instead.

[Chip]

Since the OP is in New England, maybe he's best served by Tom & Ray: http://www.cartalk.com/content/i-am-abo ... ke-pads-my

I've never "bedded" brake pads on any of the many brake jobs that I've done, though it certainly sounds reasonable. There's this quote from Tom & Ray in the linked article.

So, even if your mechanic doesn't do it, your pads will get broken in quickly from normal driving. You'll just have lousy brakes until they do.

I never even noticed lousy brakes....

[keaton]

I am in New England as well, and only use ceramic. Low dust, long lasting and zero noise! My two rules with brakes are only ceramic pads and two pad sets per rotor set. Of course if the rotor is below spec, replace it.

For my bed-in I do around 10X 60mph down to 10mph as hard as I can stop. If you can smell the brakes, your doing it right! The key is to do a cool down on the rotors. If you stop on the rotors when they are very hot, the resin bakes onto the one spot and that is when you get pulsing or "warped" rotors. Rotors do not warp! It's the resin that makes the high spots.

NO mechanic or dealer will do this! Not a chance...

Your smart to take it to an Indy mechanic! Dealerships are not the place to have a vehicle worked on unless it's warranty.

[neilpilot]

I am in New England as well, and only use ceramic. Low dust, long lasting and zero noise! My two rules with brakes are only ceramic pads and two pad sets per rotor set. Of course if the rotor is below spec, replace it.

For my bed-in I do around 10X 60mph down to 10mph as hard as I can stop. If you can smell the brakes, your doing it right! The key is to do a cool down on the rotors. If you stop on the rotors when they are very hot, the resin bakes onto the one spot and that is when you get pulsing or "warped" rotors. Rotors do not warp! It's the resin that makes the high spots.

NO mechanic or dealer will do this! Not a chance...

Your smart to take it to an Indy mechanic! Dealerships are not the place to have a vehicle worked on unless it's warranty.

+10
Keaton, yopu have the right idea regarding brake break in. Also, I like your rule of thumb regarding new rotors with the second set of pads. In my earlier post I mentioned installing front rotors and pads on my C240 at 87k miles. The first set of front pads went on at 38k miles, and the rotors were fine.

BTW I also have a 2008 VUE, bought new. I'm currently at 133k miles, and both the front and rear pads are original and not close to being at wear limits. I haven't measured the rotor thickness. I'm not sure if these pads will ever need changing.

[dollarsaver]

I am in New England as well, and only use ceramic. Low dust, long lasting and zero noise! My two rules with brakes are only ceramic pads and two pad sets per rotor set. Of course if the rotor is below spec, replace it.

For my bed-in I do around 10X 60mph down to 10mph as hard as I can stop. If you can smell the brakes, your doing it right! The key is to do a cool down on the rotors. If you stop on the rotors when they are very hot, the resin bakes onto the one spot and that is when you get pulsing or "warped" rotors. Rotors do not warp! It's the resin that makes the high spots.

NO mechanic or dealer will do this! Not a chance...

Your smart to take it to an Indy mechanic! Dealerships are not the place to have a vehicle worked on unless it's warranty.

Thank you. To be clear, 10x 60 mph to 10 mph. Smell brakes then cool down. Is there a cool down process?

[dollarsaver]

I am in New England as well, and only use ceramic. Low dust, long lasting and zero noise! My two rules with brakes are only ceramic pads and two pad sets per rotor set. Of course if the rotor is below spec, replace it.

For my bed-in I do around 10X 60mph down to 10mph as hard as I can stop. If you can smell the brakes, your doing it right! The key is to do a cool down on the rotors. If you stop on the rotors when they are very hot, the resin bakes onto the one spot and that is when you get pulsing or "warped" rotors. Rotors do not warp! It's the resin that makes the high spots.

NO mechanic or dealer will do this! Not a chance...

Your smart to take it to an Indy mechanic! Dealerships are not the place to have a vehicle worked on unless it's warranty.

+10
Keaton, yopu have the right idea regarding brake break in. Also, I like your rule of thumb regarding new rotors with the second set of pads. In my earlier post I mentioned installing front rotors and pads on my C240 at 87k miles. The first set of front pads went on at 38k miles, and the rotors were fine.

BTW I also have a 2008 VUE, bought new. I'm currently at 133k miles, and both the front and rear pads are original and not close to being at wear limits. I haven't measured the rotor thickness. I'm not sure if these pads will ever need changing.

I can see the need for shocks in the future as well. Have to get past the brakes first. Thanks so much. Very interesting thread from BH community.

[keaton]

Thank you. To be clear, 10x 60 mph to 10 mph. Smell brakes then cool down. Is there a cool down process?

Dont take it as gospel with the exact procedure, it can be in the range. The key is hard braking and heat, don't get to crazy with it, only within your comfort level, if you know what I mean. Even if you don't smell brakes that fine, I was just saying IF you do that is good.

Not to scare you, but be aware that brake CAN glaze over and cause reduced braking. Just be calm and let them cool a bit and braking will return to 100%. I just don't want anyone to get hurt over this type of procedure.

[snowman]

I also replace rotors/pads myself, one of the easiest things to do on a car, and probably the most cost effective - i.e. how much does it cost you DIY vs. how much you get charged by the dealer.

If you cannot/don't want to do it yourself, I would still recommend buying the set yourself from Amazon, then take it to your local mechanic.

I am not familiar with MB, but you can create car profile on Amazon, and you can filter results specifically for your car. I have had very good luck with Centric Premium rotors, and Akebono ProACT pads. Performance is better than OEM - equivalent stops, less dust, longer lasting - yet it costs a fraction of OEM. My guess is most pads for your car will be ceramic, and they are worth the extra cost.

Good luck!

[brokendirtdart]

Thank you. To be clear, 10x 60 mph to 10 mph. Smell brakes then cool down. Is there a cool down process?

To cool them down just use some light normal driving with minimal brake usage. The same clear area you were able to use your speed run ups would be perfect. Try not to sit at a stop light or stop sign for too long as you'll have a tendency to leave material on the rotors. It won't take long. I just finished bedding in my new pads this weekend using the above methods. It may have taken about 10 or so minutes for the cooking brake smell to go away.

EBC gives a general temperature guide. https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/bedding-in/

[dollarsaver]

Thank you. To be clear, 10x 60 mph to 10 mph. Smell brakes then cool down. Is there a cool down process?

To cool them down just use some light normal driving with minimal brake usage. The same clear area you were able to use your speed run ups would be perfect. Try not to sit at a stop light or stop sign for too long as you'll have a tendency to leave material on the rotors. It won't take long. I just finished bedding in my new pads this weekend using the above methods. It may have taken about 10 or so minutes for the cooking brake smell to go away.

EBC gives a general temperature guide. https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/bedding-in/

Thanks so much.

[wrongfunds]

I don't get it. You go the MB dealer, you give the serial number of your vehicle and ask them for the pads and rotors. You pay ungodly sum of money and you have the parts which MB originally put on your vehicle. What could be so difficult about it?

[SeeMoe]

HI all,
Technician at MB told me pads and rotors need to be replaced. Not a surprise at 68k. Can't get a straight story on ceramic or semi metallic. He's calling me back to let me know what OEM is for the car.
I have no intention of having MB do this work. Live in New England so it gets cold. Should I be looking for ceramic or semi-metallic pads? Any special rotor or are replacements basically the same?

Appreciate any and all replies. Thanks in advance

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

[neilpilot]

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

If you only knew what I know about the fine "turned" mechanics at my local Mercedes dealer. There's really nothing novel about the on-wheel brake
system in a C-class Mercedes. Pretty standard stuff.

[sschoe2]

I'd replace the rotors every other brake job. My Honda needed new front pads at 57k and I just replaced the pads and at 95k I replaced both pads and rotors.

[neilpilot]

I'd replace the rotors every other brake job. My Honda needed new front pads at 57k and I just replaced the pads and at 95k I replaced both pads and rotors.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I think this is a good rule of thumb. However, before starting that pad-only brake job try to measure the thickness of both rotors to confirm that they aren't up against their minimum thickness, which is stamped on the rotor. If they are at the minimum, that gives you time to order new rotors.

[SeeMoe]

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

If you only knew what I know about the fine "turned" mechanics at my local Mercedes dealer. There's really nothing novel about the on-wheel brake
system in a C-class Mercedes. Pretty standard stuff.

As I said, there are those who want luxury, even the lower rung Mercedes, then put the cheapest gas in it. Same for service...Just saying.

SeeMoe..

[inbox788]

Thank you. To be clear, 10x 60 mph to 10 mph. Smell brakes then cool down. Is there a cool down process?

Coast for 5-10 minutes? Didn't go back to look at the linked article. Anyway, this is new to me, and I've never done this before. Shouldn't you do this with a new car? Or is it too late after all the test drives? Is there a re-bedding procedure to do later or does this have to be done on a clean rotor with new pads?

To me, this falls in the category of shaving/truing tires. It might make a difference, but nothing I'd notice.

[sunny_socal]

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

If you only knew what I know about the fine "turned" mechanics at my local Mercedes dealer. There's really nothing novel about the on-wheel brake
system in a C-class Mercedes. Pretty standard stuff.

As I said, there are those who want luxury, even the lower rung Mercedes, then put the cheapest gas in it. Same for service...Just saying.

SeeMoe..

The brakes are not a 'luxury' item nor they require 'luxury' attention. It's a rotor for crying out loud, a hunk of metal. I'll bet a MB dealership charges at least $1k for a full brake job and $2k would not surprise me. That's mostly profit, the components hardly cost anything and the labor is some of the easiest a dealer does, it's the next notch above an oil change.

[neilpilot]

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

If you only knew what I know about the fine "turned" mechanics at my local Mercedes dealer. There's really nothing novel about the on-wheel brake
system in a C-class Mercedes. Pretty standard stuff.

As I said, there are those who want luxury, even the lower rung Mercedes, then put the cheapest gas in it. Same for service...Just saying.

SeeMoe..

The brakes are not a 'luxury' item nor they require 'luxury' attention. It's a rotor for crying out loud, a hunk of metal. I'll bet a MB dealership charges at least $1k for a full brake job and $2k would not surprise me. That's mostly profit, the components hardly cost anything and the labor is some of the easiest a dealer does, it's the next notch above an oil change.

Most of us know this, but I'm sure SeeMoe has the Mercedes dealer change his oil, wash his windshield, adjust his seat, whatever. As you know, there are those who want luxury, and may not otherwise be able to handle these things on their own. In my experience, a quality indy shop with Mercedes experience is almost always a better choice than the dealer, except when warranty or recall work is involved. But something as easy as a routine brake job should be DIY by any owner with the minimal experience or knowledge required, who has the time available.

[Dilbydog]

The MB forums folks seem to like the Akebono EUR 1340 and 1341 for the C-class. I know Akebono seems to be well regarded and recommended on the BMW forums also.

[keaton]

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

If you only knew what I know about the fine "turned" mechanics at my local Mercedes dealer. There's really nothing novel about the on-wheel brake
system in a C-class Mercedes. Pretty standard stuff.

As I said, there are those who want luxury, even the lower rung Mercedes, then put the cheapest gas in it. Same for service...Just saying.

SeeMoe..

I used to work in the industry for quite a few years. There is nothing special about a dealership doing the work over a good Indy tech. Your not going to get anything special by bringing your Benz into a dealer for a brake job over sourcing your own quality parts and having a local do it.

What luxury service do you think is happening on the lift? The dealer does nothing different over any other place, except charge an extreme premium on parts and labor.

For an example, once I year one of our family takes his Ferrari California to the dealer for "service". This includes an oil change and a complete checkup, to the tune of $2.5K! Yes, the techs are nice and it's great to walk around and look at what vehicles come in and out. Yet the service they perform is nothing special. M1 euro formula is the oil which you can get anywhere and do yourself in 30mins.

Maybe your dealer has good donuts?

[Swansea]

The local BMW $tealership has a coffee machine and snacks. I go there when they have an oil change special, but for brakes, I would good to a good independent and ask for them to use OEM parts.

[SeeMoe]

You Should let MERCEDES do the job! I own a 2017 GLS 450 W4 and wife is trading up for a 2018 GLE 350W4. Would not take those fine turned machines anywhere but the Mercedes dealer for service either,...Do you burn cheap gas in that Mercedes of yours? Think not! Same for service....

SeeMoe..

If you only knew what I know about the fine "turned" mechanics at my local Mercedes dealer. There's really nothing novel about the on-wheel brake
system in a C-class Mercedes. Pretty standard stuff.

As I said, there are those who want luxury, even the lower rung Mercedes, then put the cheapest gas in it. Same for service...Just saying.

SeeMoe..

I used to work in the industry for quite a few years. There is nothing special about a dealership doing the work over a good Indy tech. Your not going to get anything special by bringing your Benz into a dealer for a brake job over sourcing your own quality parts and having a local do it.

What luxury service do you think is happening on the lift? The dealer does nothing different over any other place, except charge an extreme premium on parts and labor.

For an example, once I year one of our family takes his Ferrari California to the dealer for "service". This includes an oil change and a complete checkup, to the tune of $2.5K! Yes, the techs are nice and it's great to walk around and look at what vehicles come in and out. Yet the service they perform is nothing special. M1 euro formula is the oil which you can get anywhere and do yourself in 30mins.

Maybe your dealer has good donuts?

Nonsense! Finding a reputable private mechanic is just as costly with more headaches in that they do not have the parts on hand, or work exclusively on your type of very expensive machinery! If the private mechanic messes up, you are the one who is stuck with it too,...Cheap is as cheap gets in the long run...

SeeMoe..

[neilpilot]

...Cheap is as cheap gets in the long run...

SeeMoe..

Not necessarily my experience. If you make an informed purchase, the price isn't necessarily a reflection of the outcome. BTW, as a reflection of dealer quality, the OP mentioned early on that the Mercedes dealer didn't even know what type of brake pads his C300 was delivered with!

Here is an example of your Cheap theory: We recently took a 3 week vacation on Menorca (Spain), and we chose a cheap flight from Boston. The flight times were way better than an alternate carrier at $1350 for coach, but we paid only $420 each. Someone into luxury would have bought 1st class tickets on that initial carrier. My one-way travel time was 5-6 hours less than that other airline. I endured a less comfortable seat and having minimal food & drink compared to your first class seat, but in the end I saved thousands of USD for essentially the same transport service. My 2 tickets cost $840, and you paid $5780.

[SeeMoe]

...Cheap is as cheap gets in the long run...

SeeMoe..

Not necessarily my experience. If you make an informed purchase, the price isn't necessarily a reflection of the outcome. BTW, as a reflection of dealer quality, the OP mentioned early on that the Mercedes dealer didn't even know what type of brake pads his C300 was delivered with!

Here is an example of your Cheap theory: We recently took a 3 week vacation on Menorca (Spain), and we chose a cheap flight from Boston. The flight times were way better than an alternate carrier at $1350 for coach, but we paid only $420 each. Someone into luxury would have bought 1st class tickets on that initial carrier. My one-way travel time was 5-6 hours less than that other airline. I endured a less comfortable seat and having minimal food & drink compared to your first class seat, but in the end I saved thousands of USD for essentially the same transport service. My 2 tickets cost $840, and you paid $5780.

Oh, I forgot that this is "the cheap as dirt " site where paying little or nothing for services is de rigour. And getting over on the know it all professionals is the only way to do business. It works out okay too,......sometimes. Sometimes not so well, but those downers happen all of the time,...Even to those darn money making professionals. Keep thinking that way,..and save a buck.

SeeMoe

[sunny_socal]

What's "cheap" are the components used in Luxury vehicles (I speak of BMW from direct experience.) The parts are expensive, but poorly designed and poorly built. Lots of plastics used throughout the engine bay. A little heat and time is all it takes to kill a BMW (at least until you limp back to the dealer for the 'free' coffee! )

[Swansea]

What's "cheap" are the components used in Luxury vehicles (I speak of BMW from direct experience.) The parts are expensive, but poorly designed and poorly built. Lots of plastics used throughout the engine bay. A little heat and time is all it takes to kill a BMW (at least until you limp back to the dealer for the 'free' coffee! )

That has not been my experience with BMW. My 98 328i runs great. The only repair item aside from what I term regular maintenance was replacing the rear wheel bearings.