Gas station prices and quality

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criticalmass
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by criticalmass » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:07 pm

cdu7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:59 pm
There is no such thing as “top tier” gasoline. It’s pure marketing, and yes those wonderful websites are in on the marketing game. I’ve driven cars into the ground, I’m talking 300k plus miles and never once had an issue using the cheapest gas I could find. I hope you don’t let the dealer/mechanic “clean” your transmission fluid and oil system either. Total rip offs.
Sure. Consumer Reports is just "marketing" for who, again? :wink: Sounds like you didn't bother to understand the actual science results of using top tier gasolines vs non-top tier gasoline! :D
Last edited by criticalmass on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cdu7
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by cdu7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:20 pm

criticalmass wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:07 pm
cdu7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:59 pm
There is no such thing as “top tier” gasoline. It’s pure marketing, and yes those wonderful websites are in on the marketing game. I’ve driven cars into the ground, I’m talking 300k plus miles and never once had an issue using the cheapest gas I could find. I hope you don’t let the dealer/mechanic “clean” your transmission fluid and oil system either. Total rip offs.
Sure. Consumer Reports are just "marketing" for who, again? :wink: :) Sounds like you didn't bother to understand the actual science results of using top tier gasolines vs non-top tier gasoline! :D
I’ll tell you what, maybe we can both agree that pure gas is way better than the ethanol blended stuff. :sharebeer

criticalmass
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by criticalmass » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:29 pm

cdu7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:20 pm
criticalmass wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:07 pm
cdu7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:59 pm
There is no such thing as “top tier” gasoline. It’s pure marketing, and yes those wonderful websites are in on the marketing game. I’ve driven cars into the ground, I’m talking 300k plus miles and never once had an issue using the cheapest gas I could find. I hope you don’t let the dealer/mechanic “clean” your transmission fluid and oil system either. Total rip offs.
Sure. Consumer Reports are just "marketing" for who, again? :wink: :) Sounds like you didn't bother to understand the actual science results of using top tier gasolines vs non-top tier gasoline! :D
I’ll tell you what, maybe we can both agree that pure gas is way better than the ethanol blended stuff. :sharebeer
Perhaps. In older yard equipment, definitely. In our (newer) cars, we haven't had any issues with ethanol.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:10 pm

cdu7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:59 pm
There is no such thing as “top tier” gasoline. It’s pure marketing, and yes those wonderful websites are in on the marketing game. I’ve driven cars into the ground, I’m talking 300k plus miles and never once had an issue using the cheapest gas I could find. I hope you don’t let the dealer/mechanic “clean” your transmission fluid and oil system either. Total rip offs.
You should know enough to know that one instance of anecdotal evidence means little. If someone takes a leisurely stroll across the interstate after dark without getting hit, does that means it's safe?

If you've read the research and have quibbles, discuss them.

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five2one
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by five2one » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:27 pm

Outside of a modern high performance engine, the brand of fuel and octane doesn't matter.
If possible, avoid ethanol but that varies per engine.

If you are that concerned, you can add some additives to clean out the engine.
I occasionally run seafoam through all my engines, even small ones.

The biggest difference you can make is taking the car on the highway for a couple hours to get the engine real hot.
One a month for an hour out and back is enough.

TheHouse7
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by TheHouse7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:22 pm

I deal with fuel additives on a weekly basis, the refinery pays me a lot to make sure 20.16 gallons of chemical is evenly distributed over a shippment of 13,400,000 gallons. If I don't treat the fuel it won't meet specifications, resulting in 1.5 to 2.5 million dollars in product value lost.

Corrosion inhibitors, lubricity, and a ton of other attributes are tracked and controlled.

I have continual banter with my father-in-law that is a mechanical engineer about ethanol and fuel stabilizers.

I know chemistry doesn't matter to the average consumer, but it does matter in overall applications.

My co-workers swear off Shell's additives.
"PSX will always go up 20%, why invest in anything else?!" -Father-in-law early retired.

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RickBoglehead
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by RickBoglehead » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:04 pm

five2one wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:27 pm
Outside of a modern high performance engine, the brand of fuel and octane doesn't matter.
If possible, avoid ethanol but that varies per engine.

If you are that concerned, you can add some additives to clean out the engine.
I occasionally run seafoam through all my engines, even small ones.

The biggest difference you can make is taking the car on the highway for a couple hours to get the engine real hot.
One a month for an hour out and back is enough.

Modern vehicle manufacturers design vehicles for ethanol. And do not recommend additives. Seafoam is not a good idea. On a snowblower, sure.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

squirm
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by squirm » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:04 pm

I just buy what is conveniently and cheap, sometimes i buy at Sams. Never had any issues. We probably drive more than anyone one this site.

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unclescrooge
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by unclescrooge » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:46 pm

Fletch wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:09 am
I have an engineer friend who worked for Shell oil. He said that Shell and Exxon were always in competition as to who could have the best performing gasoline (clean valves, etc.). Also, all top tier gas is not the same according to him. The last I remember Shell had 5X the minimum required by government standards for detergents etc. additives. Personally, I typically buy either Shell V-Power or Exxon Synergy for my turbocharged engines and use only full synthetic oil (Mobil 1 or Castrol Edge Professional). I have never replaced a fuel injector in my vehicles with three of them having over 100,000 miles and one having over 200,000 miles. YMMV :wink:
I always thought the gas at different stations came from the same unmarked tankers. Is that not true?

Turbo29
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by Turbo29 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:15 am

unclescrooge wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:46 pm
Fletch wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:09 am
I have an engineer friend who worked for Shell oil. He said that Shell and Exxon were always in competition as to who could have the best performing gasoline (clean valves, etc.). Also, all top tier gas is not the same according to him. The last I remember Shell had 5X the minimum required by government standards for detergents etc. additives. Personally, I typically buy either Shell V-Power or Exxon Synergy for my turbocharged engines and use only full synthetic oil (Mobil 1 or Castrol Edge Professional). I have never replaced a fuel injector in my vehicles with three of them having over 100,000 miles and one having over 200,000 miles. YMMV :wink:
I always thought the gas at different stations came from the same unmarked tankers. Is that not true?
Here we have two pipelines that bring in fuel to a terminal area, both from opposite directions out of state. Some of the big retailers have their own terminals (but still in the same area where the pipelines terminate). Obviously everyone has the same fuel coming out of the pipelines. It's my understanding that the proprietary additive packages are added at the terminal or at the point of delivery (station).

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by Epsilon Delta » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:43 am

Turbo29 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:15 am
Here we have two pipelines that bring in fuel to a terminal area, both from opposite directions out of state. Some of the big retailers have their own terminals (but still in the same area where the pipelines terminate). Obviously everyone has the same fuel coming out of the pipelines.
They are probably using the same gasoline base but perhaps not for the reason you think is obvious.

Pipelines routinely deliver multiple different products such as diesel, kerosene (jet fuel) and gasoline. Each slug of product is a foot or two in diameter and miles long, so there is limited mixing. Presumably they divert the small quantity from the mixing zone and use it for some non-demanding use such as bunker fuel.

researcher
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by researcher » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:59 am

criticalmass wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:33 am
That is incorrect information not supported by facts or science...
Engine protection is another matter, which is why many engine/vehicle manufacturers (who aren't marketing or selling fuel, so the basically marketing argument is undercut) recommend Top Tier Gasoline, which uses additives proven to keep engines clean.

You may read the linked study on top tier gas above if you wish to become informed. You will learn about what occurs inside the engine after burning gas with and without the much improved additives. It was independently written by AAA, not fuel companies so your marketing fears are assuaged.
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. And a lot of misplaced support for the AAA report.

First off, did you thoroughly review the AAA findings?
If you did, you would have seen several issues with the methodology...
- They utilized a specific Ford engine with traits known to "accelerate intake valve deposit formation".
In other words, this test exaggerates the buildup of deposits, and therefore the benefit of Top Tier fuel.
- The test used premium, 93 octane fuel because brands "put a higher concentration of detergent in their premium fuel."
So again, results are exaggerated towards the benefits of Top Tier fuel.

Secondly, their "findings" are HIGHLY misleading and biased.
The test took three key measurements of deposit buildup...Intake Valve, Piston Top and Cylinder Head
- The "findings" exclusively tout lower deposits on intake valves for Top Tier gas.
- Curiously, they make NO mention that deposits are actually HIGHER for Top Tier on the other two measurements!
- On 2 of the 3 tests, the Top Tier fuel saw MORE deposit buildup than the non-top tier fuel!

Lastly, can you link to the mainstream vehicle manufacturers who recommend Top Tier gasoline?
- I was recently in the market for a compact CUV (among the most popular & growing vehicle categories).
- None of the top vehicles (Honda CR-V, Toyota Rav4, Mazda CX-5, Ford Escape) even mentions Top Tier gas in their owners manual.

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five2one
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by five2one » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:12 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:04 pm
five2one wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:27 pm
Outside of a modern high performance engine, the brand of fuel and octane doesn't matter.
If possible, avoid ethanol but that varies per engine.

If you are that concerned, you can add some additives to clean out the engine.
I occasionally run seafoam through all my engines, even small ones.

The biggest difference you can make is taking the car on the highway for a couple hours to get the engine real hot.
One a month for an hour out and back is enough.

Modern vehicle manufacturers design vehicles for ethanol. And do not recommend additives. Seafoam is not a good idea. On a snowblower, sure.
"Designed for ethanol" doesn't make it the best fuel, especially when you get above 10%, add cold, long time sitting, etc.

I disagree on seafoam. Have ran it in honda 4 & 6 cyl, chevys, wranglers, diesels, etc. and they are ran better.
You don't need much and I always added before fill up during a long drive to cycle it through engine.

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whodidntante
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by whodidntante » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:22 pm

I sometimes mix in a little e-85 instead of buying premium for my high compression rocketship. This saves me money, bothers the pure gas crowd, and may have other benefits.

criticalmass
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by criticalmass » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:21 pm

TheHouse7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:22 pm
I deal with fuel additives on a weekly basis, the refinery pays me a lot to make sure 20.16 gallons of chemical is evenly distributed over a shippment of 13,400,000 gallons. If I don't treat the fuel it won't meet specifications, resulting in 1.5 to 2.5 million dollars in product value lost.

Corrosion inhibitors, lubricity, and a ton of other attributes are tracked and controlled.

I have continual banter with my father-in-law that is a mechanical engineer about ethanol and fuel stabilizers.

I know chemistry doesn't matter to the average consumer, but it does matter in overall applications.

My co-workers swear off Shell's additives.
It sounds like your additives are with the base stock gasoline (perhaps antioxidants, conductivity modifiers, corrosion inhibitors (mentioned in your post), anti-moisture/dehazers, octane modifiers, etc.) added after refining and before bulk shipping via pipelines (much of the country) or barges (regions like New England with no refineries and few pipelines).

The additives associated with Top Tier or other detergent packages are the ones added at downstream at the terminal where jobbers pick up a load of fuel to deliver to filling stations.

andypanda
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by andypanda » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:38 am

Overall, I think gas is great these days... unless you leave ethanol gas in your boat or mower for a year or two. I prefer Star-Tron fwiw.

Anyone else remember how easy it was to get bad gas before the EPA regulated underground storage tanks in 1988 and put a lot of places out of business because they couldn't afford to replace their tanks? I started driving legally in 1965 and there were many old stations with rusty tanks full of dirt and enough water to stall your engine out. My father was a state trooper and then a safety supervisor for a national trucking company who spent a lot of time on the road. His first rule was "If you have a choice, buy gas from the newest looking station."

Cars were simpler then, but didn't last as long. In one year he put 123,000 miles on a new '53 Chevy. He went through 24 tires and had to have the engine rebuilt at 80,000. He said it needed it at 60,000, but the company mechanics couldn't get to it. He knew a lot about gas stations and truck stop food.

Polaris
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Re: Gas station prices and quality

Post by Polaris » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:28 am

researcher wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:59 am
Lastly, can you link to the mainstream vehicle manufacturers who recommend Top Tier gasoline?
- I was recently in the market for a compact CUV (among the most popular & growing vehicle categories).
- None of the top vehicles (Honda CR-V, Toyota Rav4, Mazda CX-5, Ford Escape) even mentions Top Tier gas in their owners manual.
From my 2013 Hyundai manual:
HYUNDAI recommends that you use good quality gasolines treated with detergent additives such as TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, which help prevent deposit formation in the engine. These gasolines will help the engine run cleaner and enhance per-formance of the Emission Control System. For more information on TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline, please go to the website (www.toptiergas.com) For customers who do not use TOP Tier Detergent Gasoline regularly, and have problems starting their vehicle or the engine does not run smoothly, additives that you can buy separately may be added to the gasoline. If TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is not available, one bottle of additive added to the fuel tank at every 7,500mile or every engine oil change is recom-mended. Additives are available from your authorized HYUNDAI dealer along with information on how to use them.
From my son's 2015 Honda manual:
Because the level of detergency and additives in gasoline vary in the market, Honda endorses the use of “TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline” where available to help maintain the performance and reliability of your vehicle. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline meets a new gasoline standard jointly established by leading automotive manufacturers to meet the needs of today’s advanced engines. Qualifying gasoline retailers will, in most cases, identify their gasoline as having met “TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline” standards at the retail location. This fuel is guaranteed to contain the proper level of detergent additives and be free of metallic additives. The proper level of detergent additives, and absence of harmful metallic additives in gasoline, help avoid build-up of deposits in your engine and emission control system.

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