Toyota vs. Honda

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rashad3000
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Toyota vs. Honda

Post by rashad3000 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:25 am

For about 5 years now, we have owned only Honda and/or Toyota. Our previous cars were a 2011 Ford Fusion and a 2008 Ford Explorer. I loved those rides, but I think we will stick with Toyota and/or Honda from here on out. As a matter of fact, I told my wife that if I hit the lottery, I'd want a Land Cruiser.

Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?

livesoft
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by livesoft » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:26 am

Which ones have airbag recalls?
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alfaspider
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by alfaspider » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:30 am

rashad3000 wrote:For about 5 years now, we have owned only Honda and/or Toyota. Our previous cars were a 2011 Ford Fusion and a 2008 Ford Explorer. I loved those rides, but I think we will stick with Toyota and/or Honda from here on out. As a matter of fact, I told my wife that if I hit the lottery, I'd want a Land Cruiser.

Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?
It's just a matter of personal preference. Toyota probably has a slight reliability edge, Honda is a bit more sporty with styling that tends to appeal more to the younger set. That said, Toyota has been dramatically restyling their vehicles recently (in my opinion, they are beating them with an ugly stick). It's also worth noting that there are individual vehicles that don't necessarily conform. For example, the Toyota 86 is really a Subaru in Toyota clothing. The Honda Civic Type R will be very different from the rest of their lineup.

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by TheOscarGuy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:31 am

rashad3000 wrote:For about 5 years now, we have owned only Honda and/or Toyota. Our previous cars were a 2011 Ford Fusion and a 2008 Ford Explorer. I loved those rides, but I think we will stick with Toyota and/or Honda from here on out. As a matter of fact, I told my wife that if I hit the lottery, I'd want a Land Cruiser.

Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?
Flip a coin. I predict responses below will be divided roughly 50-50. You are welcome. :sharebeer

Tamales
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Tamales » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:33 am

They are both slipping. Meanwhile, on a geographic basis, Korea and Germany have really improved.
People tend to overemphasize the past (both on the good side and the bad side).

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DaftInvestor
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by DaftInvestor » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:36 am

I've owned (mostly) Toyota's and Honda's for the last 20 years.
My experience has been Toyota being far more reliable and less expensive to maintain. Honda seems to charge more for basic maintenance in addition to having a high number of recalls. The most specific serious issues (recalls) I've had with Honda recently:
1) Deadly Air Bag recall WITHOUT having the parts available to do the recall
2) We also dealt with a very loud sound on cold-day cold-start with a CRV for two years before Honda finally acknowledged and recognized the problem and issued a PCV valve recall to fix it.
For these two reasons I will personally NEVER buy another Honda. I'm sticking to Toyota and Subaru (will consider Nissan as well; if American cars continue to close the gap in reliability I would be willing to go with them as well - would love to buy American - but I also want the most reliable car for the money). Of course Toyota had the breaking-issue/recall a number of years back so no one is perfect - personally I just wasn't impacted by this one.

KT785
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by KT785 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:38 am

Subaru :D

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:41 am

Much depends on budget, past experience and personal history.

1. Lexus
2. Toyota
3. Ford

We have had a couple of "less than stellar" issues with Honda vehicles. That can't paint them all with a broad brush.

As we get older we tend to value comfort and ride over sport and flash. No easy answers.
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pennstater2005
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by pennstater2005 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am

I think they're about equal. We've owned both. Exploding air bag recall on mine and sticking gas pedal on the wife's. Both very serious. Recalls seem fairly common all around.
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Jack FFR1846
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:44 am

Hmmmm.....

Subaru has the Takata airbag recall and no parts (our 04 outback passenger airbag fits in the recall).
Subaru CVTs in some vehicles fail catastrophically (our 13 Crosstrek has a new transmission with now only 7k miles on the powertrain warranty remaining)
Subaru 2.0L and 2.5L F engines (all the models except H6 and STi have these) are subject to the oil burning class action suit settlement (our crosstrek exhibits this but I'm waiting for some miles before getting the engine replaced).

My next car is going to be a Subaru Impreza 2.0i sedan with a manual 5 speed transmission. :shock:
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DaftInvestor
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by DaftInvestor » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:49 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:Hmmmm.....

Subaru has the Takata airbag recall and no parts (our 04 outback passenger airbag fits in the recall).
Subaru CVTs in some vehicles fail catastrophically (our 13 Crosstrek has a new transmission with now only 7k miles on the powertrain warranty remaining)
Subaru 2.0L and 2.5L F engines (all the models except H6 and STi have these) are subject to the oil burning class action suit settlement (our crosstrek exhibits this but I'm waiting for some miles before getting the engine replaced).

My next car is going to be a Subaru Impreza 2.0i sedan with a manual 5 speed transmission. :shock:
LOL - a lot of Subaru drivers seem to be die-hard fans who continue with the brand through thick and thin - much more tolerant of issues. Is it because they have their own magazine?

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Tamales » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:50 am

They all have serious design flaws that can result in costly repairs and that they refuse to acknowledge. Even after people fight them for years and get them to pay, they still avoid acknowledging it (except safety issues, where they are forced). If you search, you can find such things about nearly all manufacturers.

I've owned various Toyotas for over 20 years total, and never had a problem myself. But all these vehicles had costly flaws where a meaningful number of owners had to pay out of pocket, only to finally be reimbursed many years later. While I've never owned a Honda, the same thing goes for them. For example, their variable cylinder management (VCM) system in their V6 has resulted in engine damage in the deactivated cylinders, which took years for people to get them to reimburse their expenses in getting repairs. There is an aftermarket gadget that essentially defeats the VCM that people are using even in 2017 Hondas because Honda refuses to openly acknowledge the problem (even though they eventually reimbursed repair costs).

Also with Honda, there are quality issues related to specific factories (Mexico and Alabama for example). I believe it was an Acura MDX made in Alabama where the persistent quality issues were damaging the brand and they relocated assembly elsewhere. But apparently the Honda brand made at the same Alabama factory doesn't get the same special treatment.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by sport » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:01 am

I have owned 8 Toyotas, starting in 1981. The first one was great, and each succeeding one has been better than the one before it.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:04 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
LOL - a lot of Subaru drivers seem to be die-hard fans who continue with the brand through thick and thin - much more tolerant of issues. Is it because they have their own magazine?
I wouldn't consider myself a die hard Subaru fan. But we do find that there are days in the winter where our Ford Fusion with snow tires can't get up my driveway when it snows a few inches (big oak tree prevents getting some speed first, then the hill hits). So when considering a new car, we start at AWD and as cheap as possible. This nearly always gets us to Subaru. A friend of mine was a dealer business manager and a few years ago pointed out that in that year, Toyota had recalled more cars than any other manufacturer. I've heard horror stories about Honda and Nissan CVT transmissions to go along with my own failed Crosstrek CVT. We won't buy a CVT vehicle again for a while.

I won't "rah rah" about Subarus either. I know all about head gasket issues on EJ25 N/A engines (had them replaced in our 08 Outback) or plugged cat converters (had that in the 08 outback and our 04 outback....2 different generations) or the infamous power steering failures (solved with newer electric assist). Lots of cars have issues and I research as best I can. How Ford can continue to sell the Focus with the dual clutch automatic is beyond me. It's multiple time bombs that are well known.
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alfaspider
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by alfaspider » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:18 am

DaftInvestor wrote:
Jack FFR1846 wrote:Hmmmm.....

Subaru has the Takata airbag recall and no parts (our 04 outback passenger airbag fits in the recall).
Subaru CVTs in some vehicles fail catastrophically (our 13 Crosstrek has a new transmission with now only 7k miles on the powertrain warranty remaining)
Subaru 2.0L and 2.5L F engines (all the models except H6 and STi have these) are subject to the oil burning class action suit settlement (our crosstrek exhibits this but I'm waiting for some miles before getting the engine replaced).

My next car is going to be a Subaru Impreza 2.0i sedan with a manual 5 speed transmission. :shock:
LOL - a lot of Subaru drivers seem to be die-hard fans who continue with the brand through thick and thin - much more tolerant of issues. Is it because they have their own magazine?
If you want a non-luxury AWD car (not a truck or crossover), Subaru is pretty much the place to go. Their AWD system is superior to many of their competitors. This makes them a great choice for snowy climates (which not coincidentally, is where they are very popular). For warm dry climates, they make a lot less sense.

That said, I would never own a CVT or naturally aspirated Subaru.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by weltschmerz » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:16 am

I have owned a Toyota Yaris and a Honda Accord, both automatics, although both for only about 1.5 years. My impressions: The Toyota auto transmission was super smooth, which I also noticed on a Camry I rented recently. The Honda did not shift as smoothly, and also had higher shift points allowing the engine to rev higher, which adds more noise. Also, the Honda engine made a clicking noise which bothered me. Otherwise the Honda was fine. I didn't have any maintenance issues with either car. If I had to choose, I'd pick a Toyota, but the advantage over Honda is not large.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by adamthesmythe » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:39 am

Sit in them. Drive them. Look at the exterior. Look at the interior. Find out what the options are.

While one may be marginally better in some respects- either would be a good choice. There's no reason NOT to go by personal preference/ reactions.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda?

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:59 am

rashad3000 wrote:For about 5 years now, we have owned only Honda and/or Toyota. Our previous cars were a 2011 Ford Fusion and a 2008 Ford Explorer. I loved those rides, but I think we will stick with Toyota and/or Honda from here on out. As a matter of fact, I told my wife that if I hit the lottery, I'd want a Land Cruiser.

Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?
rashad3000:

The April 2017 Car edition of Consumer Reports will answer your question (available at most libraries).

Best wishes
Taylor
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Hanksmoney
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Hanksmoney » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:01 pm

rashad3000 wrote:For about 5 years now, we have owned only Honda and/or Toyota. Our previous cars were a 2011 Ford Fusion and a 2008 Ford Explorer. I loved those rides, but I think we will stick with Toyota and/or Honda from here on out. As a matter of fact, I told my wife that if I hit the lottery, I'd want a Land Cruiser.

Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?
I own both - '05 Acura (190K) and '11 Tundra 5.7 (145K). I have had to carefully circumvent early transmission failure with the Acura at 75K due to Honda's improperly formulated Z1 ATF. The timing belt replacement is a pain and I've DIY'ed that twice. Other than that it's been good. The engine is a bit of a sludger, where the fluid gets really dark. Other than that, I wouldn't steer anyone away from Honda/Acura.

However, the Tundra feels mechanically superior. That large engine can run 0w-20 and still looks gold after 7500k intervals, even at 145K miles. That engine is like a sewing machine. It's perfectly mated with the 6 speed automatic transmission. Everything was just done right, and you can tell. When you look at reliability numbers, Toyota/Lexus pretty clearly outshines Honda... or at least from my research.

amd2135
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by amd2135 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:33 pm

I want to like Toyota but I just can't get over their handling characteristics. Thankfully it sounds like the 2018 Camry will improve on that greatly.

Hopefully they'll have a fully electric version when I'm comparing vehicles in 7-9 years. The plan is for my current vehicle to be my last with an internal combustion engine.

CULater
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by CULater » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:37 pm

I have a major problem with the uglification of Toyotas. Having one of those angry fish mouth things in my garage would keep me awake at night.
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CoAndy
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by CoAndy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:47 pm

I owned a 1996 Toyota Tacoma for several years before I had to sell it due to twins being born. Was a great truck though I did not have it for long. Currently drive a 2012 Honda Accord with 61k miles and has been 100% perfect so far.

keystone
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda?

Post by keystone » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:50 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:
The April 2017 Car edition of Consumer Reports will answer your question (available at most libraries).

Best wishes
Taylor
+1. Scan the 5 year reliability history of each of the models within each brand. The results are pretty clear cut.

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Toons
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Toons » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:54 pm

6 in one hand,
Half a dozen in the other. :happy
1.Honda
3.Toyota
I haved owned both,
Currently Honda.
I repeat either /or
:happy

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lthenderson
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by lthenderson » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:36 pm

I've never owned anything but Hondas and Toyotas. Currently I own two of the former and one of the latter. I pretty much decide what style of vehicle I want, drive one of each and pick the better appealing vehicle. I have never owned one that I considered expensive to maintain.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Jacotus » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:37 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:I've owned (mostly) Toyota's and Honda's for the last 20 years.
My experience has been Toyota being far more reliable and less expensive to maintain. Honda seems to charge more for basic maintenance in addition to having a high number of recalls. The most specific serious issues (recalls) I've had with Honda recently:
1) Deadly Air Bag recall WITHOUT having the parts available to do the recall
Toyota is not immune to this issue. My Toyota car has been subject to a recall for a Takata airbag for about 10 months with no parts available yet to fix it.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by queso » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:59 pm

lthenderson wrote:I've never owned anything but Hondas and Toyotas. Currently I own two of the former and one of the latter. I pretty much decide what style of vehicle I want, drive one of each and pick the better appealing vehicle. I have never owned one that I considered expensive to maintain.
This. I'm in the market for one or the other of them as soon as one of them can make a 7 seat SUV that will replace my '06 Pilot. Not a fan of the Pilots since mine and stuck in the middle of the Highlander/4-Runner or Sequoia size problem so still holding my Pilot for the time being. Was tempted by the GX470, but don't like the restyling of the GX460 so still driving my '06. The Subaru Ascent/Viziv looks really interesting though so will likely wait around until that comes out and hope that Honda or Toyota come up with something more appealing in the interim.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Tamales » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:07 pm

BTW, you can get a 1 month subscription to consumer reports for $6.95.
Standard caveats to be sure and cancel in time. Lots of other things you can browse through the ratings during that month.

I'd recommend you not go by entire brand ratings and instead look at the history of specific models. They break reliability into 17 categories, and then by model year. Sometimes their overall ranking makes no sense in light of the individual category ratings, so you can learn more about what the problem areas are if you look at the individual categories.
Last edited by Tamales on Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by bottlecap » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:10 pm

I, too, think you're basically splitting hairs. If I were to choose between Toyota and Honda, I would be focusing much more on the specifics of the particular models I was looking at than trying to figure out which overall brand has the best average reliability.

JT

NJdad6
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by NJdad6 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:22 pm

I wouldn't limit to those two brands. for reliability Toyota is probably better. For safety, Honda probably has an edge but this all varies by model. As far as reliability there are a number of brands rated higher than Honda including Kia, Hyundai and even Audi. Mazda and Subaru also make very nice cars.

Best to research the type of car and then test drive/research which one will better meet your needs.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by white_water » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:28 pm

Not knowing what models you wanted to compare, and with just a small sample size of having owned 2 Toyotas, 2 Hondas and 2 Subarus, I'd go with Toyota.

Lower frequency of repair places Toyota first IMO. My metric is will a vehicle go from point a to point B with a maximum of reliability, in any weather, reasonable comfort, cost and maintain it's value. Subaru was a definite third place WRT noise, durability, dealer, fit and finish, retained value.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Elsebet » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:33 pm

Do what we do and have one of each. :)

I drive a 2016 Toyota Tacoma which is too young to have any issues, less than 5k miles on her and she'll be a year old in May 2017. Before the truck we had a 2001 Toyota Celica and the only major problem it had was burning an excessive amount of oil late in its life.

My husband drives our 2006 Honda Civic Si. It has a little over 100k miles on it and has not had any major issues so far.

We just diligently do the recommended maintenance and check the oil/tires manually once a month or so.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by sc9182 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:40 pm

Toyota: Cheaper to buy (most often), cheaper to maintain, cheaper and available parts/to-repair (hardly - but just-in-case), cheaper to maintain/repair at a dealership (compared to Honda). For some reason, you get slightly less $$s - when you sell/trade (compared to Hondas). Definitely Toyotas are considerably quieter and smoother cars than Honda/Acuras (ie. Toyotas spend considerable moneys on NVH engineering). In essence - consider Toyotas are family-friendly (everyone in family going to enjoy), where as Hondas are mostly driver-friendly.

Honda: More of 'driver'/'handling' car - more road/wind noise compared to Toyota. For whatever worth - Hondas seem to command
better resale/trade-in value (even though you most likely have paid slightly more for a Honda, compared to Toyota)

As far as reliability - both are dandy - call it even-steven! If you do happen to find a made-in-japan Honda or Toyota vehicle, do tend to prefer that over its domestic made twin. For some reason the Japanese sourced one with higher quality steel, and parts - seem to offer 'more durable' life in'em.

Both are good cars - choice depends on your priorities/preferences. If you want a fine matching lawn-mower (free :-) with your new car purchase, buy a Honda. Heh :-)

Thx

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by sschoe2 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:25 pm

I drive a 2009 Honda Fit and have had very few maintenance issues in the time I've owned it 92k miles. Transmission pressure sensor ($40), normal fluids and consumables. The transmission got noticeably smoother when Honda switched from ATF Z to DW-1 fluid. I had the Takata recall done on both the Driver and Passenger side back in Jan. I don't doubt it will make it to 200k miles at least.

What do I dislike:
-wierd small tire and battery size
-A/C is weak spot and prone to issues
-Odd wiper blade size. I just replace the wiper inserts every other year.

icmsteve
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by icmsteve » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:42 pm

From my personal 20+ years experience with both Honda (Accord, CR-V) and Toyota (Camry) I find both brands to be extremely reliable.
In this time span, by leasing and /or owning both brands simultaneously, I have to give the edge to Honda for fewer mechanical problems than the Toyota.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by daveydoo » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:47 pm

rashad3000 wrote:
Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?
About reliability, individual BH opinions don't matter; there are objective data. Toyota is better. Honda isn't bad, either.

Where opinions differ is in the driving dynamics. Toyota is the car, more than any, that's "built" by focus groups. So the cup holders continue to proliferate while the numb handling and 20 degree steering-wheel play remain. So the Toyota driver's next car feels just like the previous car. Only even a little more so. I think the Honda driving experience is much better than Toyota, and we've had both but have generally owned Hondas. But that involves watching the road and not hard-braking for every slight bend in said road.

I think I can sum it up like this: If you are the frequent victim of road rage, you're a potential Toyota driver. If you are often tempted to road rage, get the Honda -- you'll be much happier.

Toyota is getting better -- after five or seven years of focusing on being "less boring" (their words, not mine), Lexus has a nice performance coupe (the LC) coming out with much more attention to the driving experience and less to the in-seat dining experience.

ragabnh
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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by ragabnh » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:48 pm

I also owned both brands, Toyota is more reliable for sure but not by much, however the most important thing is that Toyota after several years of ownership and over hundred thousand of miles the car stay in one piece as far as body feeling rigid, not so with Honda or other cars, things starts to loosen up and the car feels its age. In summary Toyota ages better than Honda.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by spammagnet » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:10 am

We last shopped Honda vs Toyota several years ago. For me, the difference was seat comfort. The Honda didn't fit me as well as the Toyota. That's personal and subjective. I discern little objective difference between them, otherwise.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by ClaycordJCA » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:36 am

amd2135 wrote:I want to like Toyota but I just can't get over their handling characteristics. Thankfully it sounds like the 2018 Camry will improve on that greatly.

Hopefully they'll have a fully electric version when I'm comparing vehicles in 7-9 years. The plan is for my current vehicle to be my last with an internal combustion engine.
I believe Toyota and Honda are both planning to focus on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles rather than 100% electric. Beginning to see advertisements for both the Toyota and Honda fuel cell vehicles. Of course, makes no sense for me to buy since the closest fueling station is 40 miles away.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by daveydoo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:04 am

ClaycordJCA wrote: I believe Toyota and Honda are both planning to focus on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles rather than 100% electric.
I think this reflects your very niche market (based upon your user location)! Years and years away for most of us. (We're, what, 20 years into the Prius?) And I envision a few logistical obstacles with a pressurized, explosive fuel traveling 70 mph. And then there's autonomous fuel cell cars -- it's a good thing the traffic will keep 'em nice and slow in the Bay Area!

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Re: Blind spots

Post by samjuno » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:42 am

I have a 2008 Toyota Yaris Hatchback & after two + years, I still miss my old Honda Hbk. I love driving & miss the "road feel" of the older Hondas. Plus, the Yaris has awful blind spots like many newer model cars. But, it will probably outlive me.
If I could afford the maintenance- I would get a VW hatchback (a driver's car).

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by tennisplyr » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:48 am

Have Hondas since 1983 and love them....have an Accord and Civic now. Reliable, good gas mileage and are well equipped. Never owned a Toyota. Took many of them over 100k and sold them privately.
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

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Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by harvestbook » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:47 am

I drove old Subarus for about 20 years--we live where there's a lot of salt on the roads in winter so you can buy the old rusty ones with high mileage and get a few years of very cheap driving out of them. Our circumstances improved and I bought my first-ever new car in 2012--a Honda Fit. I chose it based on consumer ratings, gas mileage, and low cost. I liked it so much when my daughter got her license, I gave her mine and bought another one last year. I did test the Toyota Prius because I was interested in a hybrid, but it was all too computerized for me and I chose simplicity (and about $6K in savings.)

My wife has a 2013 Subaru Impreza in case we need a 4WD and she's happy with it. I plan to use my current car until it dies, aiming for 250,000 miles, but if Tesla releases something under $20K, I'd definitely be interested. I like my cars like I like my investments-- simple and cheap.
I'm not smart enough to know, and I can't afford to guess.

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Location: Boston suburbs

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by jharkin » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:10 am

Interesting that a question of which is more reliable - Toyota or Honda - devolved into discussions of airbags, who makes the best AWD, whats the most luxurious, Subarus, German and Korean cars. :confused

Anyway, big time Honda (mostly) and Toyota family here. Between myself, my wife and our extended families we have owned

Hondas:
1977 1st gen CVCC Civic (Dad)
1982 2nd gen Accord (me - first car)
1985 Civic (Mom)
1987 Accord (me - third car)
1995 Civic x2 (Mom, Sister)
2000 Accord (MIL)
2003 Acura RSX (me - 4th car)
2004 Civic (Mom)
2008 Pilot (my wife -current)
2011 Civic (MIL - current)
2012 Fit (SIL - current)

Toyotas:
90s Camry (wife 1st car)
2000 Corolla (wife)
2004 Camry (Dad - still has it as a second car)
2014 Tacoma (me - current)
2016 Corolla (sister - current )

Having worked on many of these, going all he way back to the days helping grab tools for my dad while he worked on the old '77, my thoughts:

Reliability
* The heyday of their reliability dominance was the late 90s/first half of the 2000s. Models from both companies from that period are near bulletproof.
* Generally Toyota has the edge over Honda in reliability, but during that period both where so far ahead of everyone else it didn't really matter
* Both are slipping now as they try to catch up with the rest of the world on the luxury and hi tech features. This has forced them to go to outside suppliers for some things (like the ZF transmissions Honda is starting to use) and just brings in more complexity and chance for things to break
Summary - A near toss up with the edge to Toyota


Working on them:
* Honda tends to go their own way. They will custom design unique implementations for things that most other companies including Toyota buys off the shelf. Sometimes this works to their advantage (Honda's variable valve timing system was one of the first and to this day by far the most reliable) other times this works against them (Honda uses a very unique automatic transmission and has been known for transmission problems
* Because they go their own way, fixing a Honda in some instances is a little more unique than a Toyota. Not in major ways, but in enough small that it doesn't hurt to go to a Honda specialist mechanic. Doing my own work I actually like the Honda way, in older models it seemed like they thought about making them easier to work on more than Toyota did...
Summary - Personal preference but I like fixing Honda's better

Issues
* Airbag problems plague both - but that's because they bought from the same supplier. That supplier also sold to European and US makes, there are hundreds of companies involved.
* They both sometimes develop annoying small electrical issues when they get older - door lock actuators (Toyota), power window motors (Honda), etc
* Honda had a lot of automatic transmission problems in the latter 00's
* Honda's from the 80s where known for valvetrain problems
* Toyota had problems like the accelerator pedal recall
Summary: they both have issues from time to time.

Driving experience and style:
* Honda was first and foremost an engine builder, long before making cars. Their strong suit is world class hi revving/high output small engines.
* They tend to have a more sporty character across the lineup than Toyota. In addition to their phenomenal engines they make the worlds best manual transmission and have very well tuned suspensions and superb handling. Honda's for many years won Car and Driver 10 best, etc for having the best driving feel you could get in an economical FWD car.
* Toyota on the other hand is like folks above pointed out - they feel like they are designed by committee to be as bland and unoffensive as possible. They are typically considered far more "comfortable" if that's what you want. I.e. choose Camry over Accord if the quietest softest possible ride form point A to B is all you want.
* Honda's lineup is more narrowly focused on cars and car based SUVs/vans. You have a small selection of models and limited fixed trim options for each. Toyota's lineup on the other hand is almost overwhelming.
* Toyota builds real trucks and truck based SUVs with true 4 wheel drive (Tundra, Tacoma, FJ, 4 Runner, Land Cruiser, etc). The Tacoma, FJ and 4Runner are considered world class off road vehicles respected like Jeep and Range Rover. Honda doesn't make trucks. They make a car pretending to be a truck (Ridgeline).
Summary: A 90s Civic SI is a little race car with a back seat... A Camry is a sectional couch on wheels ;) I would choose Honda for Cars but Toyota for Trucks
Last edited by jharkin on Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

misterno
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:55 am

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by misterno » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:14 am

sschoe2 wrote:I drive a 2009 Honda Fit and have had very few maintenance issues in the time I've owned it 92k miles. Transmission pressure sensor ($40), normal fluids and consumables. The transmission got noticeably smoother when Honda switched from ATF Z to DW-1 fluid. I had the Takata recall done on both the Driver and Passenger side back in Jan. I don't doubt it will make it to 200k miles at least.

What do I dislike:
-wierd small tire and battery size
-A/C is weak spot and prone to issues
-Odd wiper blade size. I just replace the wiper inserts every other year.
where do you buy the wiper inserts? I need a cheap place to buy

sid hartha
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by sid hartha » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:36 am

jharkin wrote:Interesting that a question of which is more reliable - Toyota or Honda - devolved into discussions of airbags, who makes the best AWD, whats the most luxurious, Subarus, German and Korean cars. :confused

Anyway, big time Honda (mostly) and Toyota family here. Between myself, my wife and our extended families we have owned

Hondas:
1977 1st gen CVCC Civic (Dad)
1982 2nd gen Accord (me - first car)
1985 Civic (Mom)
1987 Accord (me - third car)
1995 Civic x2 (Mom, Sister)
2000 Accord (MIL)
2003 Acura RSX (me - 4th car)
2004 Civic (Mom)
2008 Pilot (my wife -current)
2011 Civic (MIL - current)
2012 Fit (SIL - current)

Toyotas:
90s Camry (wife 1st car)
2000 Corolla (wife)
2004 Camry (Dad - still has it as a second car)
2014 Tacoma (me - current)
2016 Corolla (sister - current )

Having worked on many of these, going all he way back to the days helping grab tools for my dad while he worked on the old '77, my thoughts:

Reliability
* The heyday of their reliability dominance was the late 90s/first half of the 2000s. Models from both companies from that period are near bulletproof.
* Generally Toyota has the edge over Honda in reliability, but during that period both where so far ahead of everyone else it didn't really matter
* Both are slipping now as they try to catch up with the rest of the world on the luxury and hi tech features. This has forced them to go to outside suppliers for some things (like the ZF transmissions Honda is starting to use) and just brings in more complexity and chance for things to break
Summary - A near toss up with the edge to Toyota


Working on them:
* Honda tends to go their own way. They will custom design unique implementations for things that most other companies including Toyota buys off the shelf. Sometimes this works to their advantage (Honda's variable valve timing system was one of the first and to this day by far the most reliable) other times this works against them (Honda uses a very unique automatic transmission and has been known for transmission problems
* Because they go their own way, fixing a Honda in some instances is a little more unique than a Toyota. Not in major ways, but in enough small that it doesn't hurt to go to a Honda specialist mechanic. Doing my own work I actually like the Honda way, in older models it seemed like they thought about making them easier to work on more than Toyota did...
Summary - Personal preference but I like fixing Honda's better

Issues
* Airbag problems plague both - but that's because they bought from the same supplier. That supplier also sold to European and US makes, there are hundreds of companies involved.
* They both sometimes develop annoying small electrical issues when they get older - door lock actuators (Toyota), power window motors (Honda), etc
* Honda had a lot of automatic transmission problems in the latter 00's
* Honda's from the 80s where known for valvetrain problems
* Toyota had problems like the accelerator pedal recall
Summary: they both have issues from time to time.

Driving experience and style:
* Honda was first and foremost an engine builder, long before making cars. Their strong suit is world class hi revving/high output small engines.
* They tend to have a more sporty character across the lineup than Toyota. In addition to their phenomenal engines they make the worlds best manual transmission and have very well tuned suspensions and superb handling. Honda's for many years won Car and Driver 10 best, etc for having the best driving feel you could get in an economical FWD car.
* Toyota on the other hand is like folks above pointed out - they feel like they are designed by committee to be as bland and unoffensive as possible. They are typically considered far more "comfortable" if that's what you want. I.e. choose Camry over Accord if the quietest softest possible ride form point A to B is all you want.
* Honda's lineup is more narrowly focused on cars and car based SUVs/vans. You have a small selection of models and limited fixed trim options for each. Toyota's lineup on the other hand is almost overwhelming.
* Toyota builds real trucks and truck based SUVs with true 4 wheel drive (Tundra, Tacoma, FJ, 4 Runner, Land Cruiser, etc). The Tacoma, FJ and 4Runner are considered world class off road vehicles respected like Jeep and Range Rover. Honda doesn't make trucks. They make a car pretending to be a truck (Ridgeline).
Summary: A 90s Civic SI is a little race car with a back seat... A Camry is a sectional couch on wheels ;) I would choose Honda for Cars but Toyota for Trucks
Hi JHarkin,

Do you know if Honda's transmission problems are behind them or is that still an issue for them with newer models? Thanks.

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jharkin
Posts: 1251
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Location: Boston suburbs

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by jharkin » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:12 pm

sid hartha wrote: Hi JHarkin,

Do you know if Honda's transmission problems are behind them or is that still an issue for them with newer models? Thanks.
Good question.

This is all just speculation and guesses on my part - so you will probably want to go research and look at TrueDeulta etc.... but my take is that the height of the problems where in the early-mid 2000s when they had multiple transmission recalls for Accords and Odysseys, maybe even MDX? . The bulk of the problems seem to be the first 5 speed automatic for V6 engines they made - offered in V6 Accords, Odyssey vans, Pilots, MDX's etc in those years.There where even recalls for the Civics so it might not only be that trans.

What I know about the failures is that the recalls mostly involved upgrading some of the bearings inside the transmissions, strengthening some internal components and making some changes that improved ATF circulation for better lubrication and cooling. Later on they also reformulated their ATF from a conventional oil (Honda ATF-Z1) to a synthetic (Honda ATF-DW1) and completely redesigned that transmission to a stronger 5 speed unit with more shafts and then replaced it with a 6 speed model. Ive read theories online that the problem is that basically took a 4 cylinder transmission design and scaled it up to fit the larger v6 engine and the result was it was not strong enough if you drive the car hard. But that's just hearsay.

I've seen reports of some problems persisting into the late 2000s and even post -2010, but they dont seem to be as common. We have an '08 Pilot - First thing I did when I bought it was to refill the transmission with synthetic fluid and its never given me a problem (knock on wood).

Now many Honda's have CVT's (there is one small recall on the 2014 Civic CVT but otherwise reports seem favorable, Honda built CVTs for the Japan domestic market for decades) and some models like the top-trim Pilot and some Acura's use the ZF 9 speed push button transmission that you also see in lots of European cars. Lots of negative complaints about that one just being un-intuitive to drive.

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Frugal Al
Posts: 1662
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 10:09 am

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Frugal Al » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:54 pm

I'm obviously not Harkin, but as a former Honda associate and having dealt with Hondas for the past 36 years or so, I'll offer my opinion: transmissions are not Honda's strong point. Having said that, Honda does learn from their mistakes, once they admit to them--which they are sometimes slow to do.

I think Honda's six-speed automatic is very reliable at this point, and has been since the late 2000s. Also, prior to the adoption of the CVT, Honda's automatics on their 4 cylinders were very reliable (see CVTs below).

Their usage of the ZF 9-speed in some of their upper trims, including Acura, has been fraught with issues, both with software and design (dog gear). The implementation of that transmission in the MDX has been more successful, but not without complaints. That transmission is the reason I chose not to purchase a TLX.

Their 8-speed DCT, although suffering software problems initially, has become a very nice transmission and suffers few issues. It has a unique design amongst DCTs in that it also incorporates a torque converter, which helps low speed maneuvering and improves wear and tear on the clutches.

Honda's high volume foray into CVTs had a rough start, with a big recall just a couple years ago, http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-reca ... t-trouble/. I've got to think, with the limited number of issues since, they have figured out how to make a durable, as well as a nice driving, CVT. There are many of these units with significant miles on them which indicates that, although not an enthusiast's choice, it is a very capable transmission. As with other Honda automatics, I would advise doing preventive maintenance every 30k mile: single drain and fill (it uses almost 4 qts of Honda CVT-1)

Honda is now producing a new 10 spd auto that will first appear in the 2018 Odyssey. Hopefully Honda will get this right.

All manufacturers have had their share of issues over the last few years. My main complaint with Honda is that they are sometimes slow to admit to their foibles.

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Alexa9
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:41 am

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by Alexa9 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:46 pm

It depends on the specific model you're talking about. You can't know how reliable a model is until many have been driven several years for many miles. That said, Toyota and Lexus are ranked at the top of reliability lately.

radiowave
Posts: 1304
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: Toyota vs. Honda

Post by radiowave » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:13 pm

rashad3000 wrote:For about 5 years now, we have owned only Honda and/or Toyota. Our previous cars were a 2011 Ford Fusion and a 2008 Ford Explorer. I loved those rides, but I think we will stick with Toyota and/or Honda from here on out. As a matter of fact, I told my wife that if I hit the lottery, I'd want a Land Cruiser.

Anyway, which one of these do you think is a more solid, reliable vehicle, Toyota or Honda?
We've had Toyota Corolla's, Honda CR-V/Civic, and a Ford Fusion hybrid. Let me get the Ford out of the way first, I liked the ride and gas mileage but lost confidence in the vehicle when the power steering went out twice. Glad we were just starting out and not on the highway which could have caused an accident. There was a recall on this but did not go back to our year which I think was 2010.

I current have a 2004 CR-V with 162K miles and drive it over 30 mi/day to work. The only thing that went bad on this vehicle was the A/C compressor which was replaced even though it was out of warrantee. I'm still getting 25 MPG. The ride is a bit stiff but other than tires, routine maintenance, and an occasional battery, I couldn't ask for a better all around vehicle. My wife had a Civic for many years and never had a problem with it up to 100k miles when she sold it to get the Ford Fusion for a bigger car with better ride. We had the Toyota for 9 years, I think it had about a 100K miles and was doing well until a tree in the yard fell over and caved in the roof so we salvaged it and bought the CR-V. Happy with the Toyota, never had anything go wrong with it either.

If you are in a snow belt state, having the AWD is a real help.
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