Suspicious organic products

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misterno
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Suspicious organic products

Postby misterno » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:56 pm

So I am into organic now, trying to buy everything in organic if the price is not crazy

The other day I was reading an article about gluten free diet not that I am into it but I was reading. It said the heavy metal concentration in the urines of people who eats more gluten free is obvious and clear. First it did not make sense. The article goes on to say "further studies and research showed that people who tend to eat gluten free also consume rice more and since regular rice has too much heavy metal residue, this ends up in your urine and blood which is unhealthy."

The reason rice has too much heavy metal ingredients is because most comes from areas around Mississipi river which is heavily polluted,

I immediately decided to research organic brown (I don't eat white) rice prices. After researching for a while, I found the cheapest to be in Walmart. Brand is Mahatma and price is $1.5/lb. The regular is like $1/lb anyway.

Went to the local walmart grabbed one just to try. At home I opened the package and realized that my wife bought the exact same brand exact same size exact same rice just not organic. You won't believe how they both look exactly same. The texture the color, the size the shape.

The price is 50% more but what if it is the same product? What would you do? How do you pursue?

livesoft
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby livesoft » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:06 pm

misterno wrote:What would you do?

Thanks for asking. I'd re-think the whole organic thing and be glad that my cytochrome P450 levels are high.
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misterno
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby misterno » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:08 pm

livesoft wrote:
misterno wrote:What would you do?

Thanks for asking. I'd re-think the whole organic thing and be glad that my cytochrome P450 levels are high.


what is cytochrome P450 ?

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dm200
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby dm200 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:08 pm

misterno wrote:So I am into organic now, trying to buy everything in organic if the price is not crazy
The other day I was reading an article about gluten free diet not that I am into it but I was reading. It said the heavy metal concentration in the urines of people who eats more gluten free is obvious and clear. First it did not make sense. The article goes on to say "further studies and research showed that people who tend to eat gluten free also consume rice more and since regular rice has too much heavy metal residue, this ends up in your urine and blood which is unhealthy."
The reason rice has too much heavy metal ingredients is because most comes from areas around Mississipi river which is heavily polluted,
I immediately decided to research organic brown (I don't eat white) rice prices. After researching for a while, I found the cheapest to be in Walmart. Brand is Mahatma and price is $1.5/lb. The regular is like $1/lb anyway.
Went to the local walmart grabbed one just to try. At home I opened the package and realized that my wife bought the exact same brand exact same size exact same rice just not organic. You won't believe how they both look exactly same. The texture the color, the size the shape.
The price is 50% more but what if it is the same product? What would you do? How do you pursue?


I do not seek out (and pay more for) products labeled "organic".

barnaclebob
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby barnaclebob » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:09 pm

I would read more about how organic food isn't any better for you and focus on a good diet in general.

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Raybo
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Raybo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:24 pm

First off, I would ignore all the people who will advise you that buying organic is a waste of money. Now that Roundup is being classed as a health hazard, I'd prefer to eat food that hasn't been (over)dosed with pesticide. To each his own.

For those complaining about the cost of organic food, I have a question: Who will get all the money you will save by buying the cheapest food you can find?

Here is an article from consumerreports.org about Arsenic in rice: https://www.consumerreports.org/content ... 2012_1.pdf . While Mahatma organic brown isn't in the list, several other organic browns are. Maybe you can find your answer in the list.

As for organic and non-organic food "looking" the same, it is clear that one can't tell what the farm practices are by looking in the produce aisle. If you are concerned about being ripped off by people passing non-organic as organic, I'd start by contacting the producer (Mahatma) and then the retailer with your concern. Someone, somewhere has to be able to produce a certificate that shows the food came from an organic source.
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mhalley
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby mhalley » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:27 pm

Whether the food you buy is actually "organic" is a crapshoot. A recent study showed 40% of products that were supposedly organic tested positive for pesticides. And forget anything that is not grown in the U.S.
That being said, you can't tell the difference just by looking at a product. You would have to do chemical testing to see if it contains pesticides or heavy metals. A device to do that is on the horizon. http://www.foodqualityandsafety.com/art ... y-organic/

Here is an interesting blog post on organics:
http://dontwastethecrumbs.com/2015/03/1 ... u-to-know/
As for me, I wash my vegatables and hope the preservatives keep me preserved. :wink:
Time to go eat something full of GMO's and Gluten.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby hicabob » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:34 pm

I don't think organic vs non-organic is relevant to heavy metals in rice. It's in the soil and rice is apparently very good at pulling them out.
Why would you expect the organic rice to look different than the non-organic?

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/ ... with-rice/

MildlyEccentric
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby MildlyEccentric » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:37 pm

There has been information in the news regarding the presence of arsenic (a heavy metal) in food. Consumer Reports has published specifically on arsenic in rice which is evidently not restricted in the U.S. except in the case of infant rice cereal. Arsenic is an element which occurs naturally in the earth, so it's possible to have arsenic in rice depending on the naturally occurring concentration of arsenic in the soil. Because rice is grown in fields that are flooded with water, rice is more likely to take up arsenic than other crops. There are proposals in the U.S. to regulate the amount of arsenic in foods as has been done in Europe.

I'm not surprised that your organic and conventionally grown rice appear the same as it's possible they were grown from the same cultivar.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby stoptothink » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:43 pm

Raybo wrote:First off, I would ignore all the people who will advise you that buying organic is a waste of money. Now that Roundup is being classed as a health hazard, I'd prefer to eat food that hasn't been (over)dosed with pesticide. To each his own.


You do know that the pesticides used in organic farming are arguably (pretty convincingly) worse than Roundup right? No dog in the fight, and I don't want to get the thread shut down, but your post comes off as someone who is under the wrong assumption that organic produce is grown without the use of (known to be harmful) pesticides; they are simply different, natural (and less effective) pesticides. Go ahead and Google Bacillus thuringiensis or Rotenone.

Beyond the perpetual debate whether organic is healthier or not, what can't be avoided is that you really have no clue unless you grow it yourself.

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Pajamas
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Pajamas » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:52 pm

I do a lot of research on various products and have found that many of them that claim to be organic and even have an organic "seal" on the label are probably not organic. This is mostly true with products found online or in stores that are not from large, reputable manufacturers from developed Western nations. Sometimes the basic ingredients are not even what they are supposed to be, such as with seafood and dietary supplements.

You basically can't trust any such claims. Even when a product is supposedly certified by a third party, the certification often can't be verified with the certification agency in the online database or even directly. Sometimes I have found that the agency has never even certified a similar product that might then be purchased from the grower and resold under a different brand. The same is true of many non-food products that are supposedly tested by third party labs such as water filters. Basically, no one is enforcing these claims.

You might also be surprised at how "organic" products from U.S. companies are actually produced and that many of the seemingly small organic companies are actually owned by the large companies. Many of the small-scale, organic farmers that you picture when thinking of organic foods will tell you that what most people think of as organic food cannot be produced on an industrial scale.

I see nothing wrong with selling the same organic food labeled as organic and also not labeled as organic, even at different prices. Some people are willing to pay more for the organic label. That might be true with your rice, that both versions are organic, or it might be true that neither version is actually organic. There is probably no way for you to know for sure even if you contact the company.

In parts of the country where pesticides are sprayed by plane, the chemicals are in the air, in the soil, in the water. You can't grow truly organic food anywhere in those areas.

If this kind of thing bothers you, don't start thinking about the radiation leaking into the ocean in Fukushima or that is in the soil in Europe from Chernobyl.

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snowshoes
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby snowshoes » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:56 pm

I ran a produce stevedoring, handling, packing, re-packing, and delivery operation for close to 20yrs, along with day labor & produce importation. I cannot list all the nonsense (label-re-label) i've seen w/organics, other than the usual 100% mark up, particularly all that free money? I'm talking 10's to 100s of millions. Who's going to jeopardize that?

Staying with organics marketing, for their supposed benefits, is akin to staying w/those great guys Raymond James & Ed Jones!

(I'm no writer, as many here are, I do know my business though) Good luck to you!
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livesoft
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby livesoft » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:57 pm

^Are you saying that's just the tip of the iceberg? Let us know.
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snowshoes
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby snowshoes » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:03 pm

livesoft wrote:^Are you saying that's just the tip of the iceberg? Let us know.
Yes, appropriate joke too!

To add to my point's above ALL banana's have to be gassed 6-48hrs to turn their deep dark green pre-sale transport color to what you see when they arrive in the stores. Apples sometimes have to be gassed also. I forget what their gassed with. I do not recall organic banana's back then at all, just all the other items we see today. fwiw,! Best2u.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby knpstr » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:09 pm

misterno wrote:Went to the local walmart grabbed one just to try. At home I opened the package and realized that my wife bought the exact same brand exact same size exact same rice just not organic. You won't believe how they both look exactly same. The texture the color, the size the shape.

The price is 50% more but what if it is the same product? What would you do? How do you pursue?


Not sure why you are surprised. Being organic doesn't necessarily change the look and taste.

Taste (of fruits/vegetables) is best enhanced by buying locally grown food.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Sandtrap » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:14 pm

Perhaps a holistic bigger picture is useful in that one would focus on the overall quality and balance of what one consumes. Diversified in AAA quality assets with an allocation that best fits one's general health, age, lifestyle, and individual tolerances -- with the goal of longevity and quality of life.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby littlebird » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:24 pm

snowshoes wrote:I owned a produce stevedoring, handling, packing, re-packing, and delivery operation for over a decade, along with produce importation and a day labor operation. Things I've seen point to organics are marketing, only, (IMO) I cannot list all the nonsense (label-re-label) I've seen w/organics, other than the usual 100% mark up, particularly bananas. Whom do you trust? It's close to a 100% markup, who wants to loose that free money? I'm talking 10's to 100s of millions.


I was just in my Kroger's supermarket last night and the organic bananas were only 10 cents/lb. more than the regular ones; $.69/$.59 And unlike the rice, the few times I bought the organic ones, I found they were quite different in physical characteristics and ripening behavior from the regular. (emphasis above added by me for clarity)
Last edited by littlebird on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Smorgasbord
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Smorgasbord » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:27 pm

One of the only fungicides available to organic growers is a mixture of copper sulfate and hydrated lime called Bordeaux Mixture. This 130+ years old fungicide is not nearly as effective as modern fungicides, so regular reapplication is required.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby sunnywindy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:30 pm

There's been fraud in the world organic olive oil market, so I don't see any reason why rice wouldn't be susceptible to this practice. I'll continue to buy as much organic, price dependant, as I can, but I generally trust US/CAN brands more. I also trust the local farmers market farmers who say they are organic.
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Dutch
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Dutch » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:42 pm

Tests were published some years ago that showed higher arsenic concentrations in US grown rice, both non-organic and organic. The reason was the use of chicken manure as fertilizer. Apparently we feed arsenic to factory farmed chickens (!) to make them gain weight a little faster.

Rice from India showed much lower concentrations in comparison. The study or article I read suggested thoroughly rinsing the rice in luke-warm water - before cooking - for a 30% reduction in arsenic. And a further 30% reduction could be achieved by a different cooking method: boiling the rice in excess water and poring off the excess at the end.
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CaliJim
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby CaliJim » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:49 pm

in theory, the organic label is about healthy sustainable agriculture. in practice it is about marketing.

local? every farm is local somewhere. buy local to reduce fossil fuel based transportation. buying local is not about organic vs conventional use of fertilizers and pesticides.

chemicals? all chemicals are natural at some level. what matters is not synthetic vs non-synthetic chemicals. lead is non-synthetic but it will poison you. what matters is toxicity and environmental impact

as some have alluded too, more important than organic vs conventional is: what specific chemicals are used and in what concentrations. the organic label tells you very little about any of this.
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snowshoes
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby snowshoes » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:53 pm

littlebird wrote:
snowshoes wrote:I owned a produce stevedoring, handling, packing, re-packing, and delivery operation for over a decade, along with produce importation and a day labor operation. Things I've seen point to organics are marketing, only, (IMO) I cannot list all the nonsense (label-re-label) I've seen w/organics, other than the usual 100% mark up, particularly bananas. Whom do you trust? It's close to a 100% markup, who wants to loose that free money? I'm talking 10's to 100s of millions.


I was just in my Kroger's supermarket last night and the organic bananas were only 10 cents/lb. more than the regular ones; $.69/$.59 And unlike the rice, the few times I bought the organic ones, I found they were quite different in physical characteristics and ripening behavior from the regular. (emphasis above added by me for clarity)


I'm sure there are different instances out there. I'm sure that items labeled as organics have become less expensive than the usual 100% premiums I use to encounter, I rarely look at organics anymore as my minds made up after all the shenanigans I saw w/organics from 1980 to mid- 90s in my business. I'm sure things have changed some, as with everything. But that used to be my life's support system, produce, and its of shoots. Organics was one of its most profitable off shoots I knew as a scam. I still believe it has not changed that much to change my views from those times and its margins & premiums. Good luck!

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby mnaspbh » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:26 pm

Buying organic isn't about better health for you, it's about potentially better health for future generations (your great-grandkids). There's still so much pesticide and other chemical residue in most farming areas that organic food is still packed with residues. Eventually, if no more pesticides are applied, the residue levels will drop, but that can take decades or more.

As others have observed, there are a lot of suspicious practices around the "organic" label, especially marketing. As consumers, we're at the mercy of regulatory agencies to determine what's actually organic or not, what "organic" even means, whether we're being ripped off, etc, unless you happen to own many millions of dollars worth of chemical analysis equipment and are happy paying for reagents to do your own tests. If you feel that regulatory agencies should exist to help consumers make informed decisions in a free market, contact your representatives.

We try to buy organic when possible. If the price difference is too great or the products are suspect, we buy non-organic and donate some of the difference toward appropriate environmental charities.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby iamlucky13 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:10 pm

Raybo wrote:First off, I would ignore all the people who will advise you that buying organic is a waste of money. Now that Roundup is being classed as a health hazard, I'd prefer to eat food that hasn't been (over)dosed with pesticide.


I understand the level of risks pesticides might present is hard to understand, so it doesn't bother me that many people prefer organic food out of an abundance of caution. I am bothered, however, when the difficulty of understanding the risk is turned around into a conviction of risk or a misreporting of evidence.

Pesticide application to food crops is regulated both for how much can be applied, and how soon before harvest it can be applied. This keeps exposure levels far below any known level of harm. It does mean residuals are often detectable in food. At a minimum, I know in some cases glyphosate measurements have exceeded 1 part per million - for a visualization, try putting a single drop of food coloring in 10 gallons of water - that's roughly 1 ppm. I've so far been unable to find any cases where foods have been measured with glyphosate exceeding the legal limit of 30 ppm.

What this really means is far from obvious, but the topic of pesticide use has been contentious for decades. The first tests for cancer-causing potential of Roundup were over 30 years ago, and numerous more have been done since then. A recent USDA review of much of that research resulted in a document 144 pages long just summarizing and discussing those studies (with another 83 pages of citations, references, and other supporting documentation).

They found very little of concern. Epidemiological studies of actual long term human exposure turned up nothing. Animal studies were at worst mixed. The WHO classification of glyphosate as a "probable" carcinogen that you refer to was based on some of those animal studies. Many found no affect. Some found elevated cancer risk in strains of mice and rats bred specifically to be very cancer prone in order to maximize the chances of finding a link, but they were feeding the rodents doses of up to 1000ppm for their entire lives - over 30 times the legal limit I mentioned above and almost 1000 times what as far as I can find is a high real-world exposure.

So yes, it is "probably" harmful if you consume utterly unrealistic amounts of it. We really are unable to say whether there is some tiny level of risk at realistic levels. If that's enough uncertainty that you prefer to eat organic out of an abundance of caution, I don't see anything wrong with that. Please just don't join the ranks of those who seem somehow compelled to exaggerate or lie about the evidence.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby livesoft » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:12 pm

Round-up / glyphosate is not a pesticide anyways. But neither is bacon to my knowledge.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby stoptothink » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:19 pm

mnaspbh wrote:Buying organic isn't about better health for you, it's about potentially better health for future generations (your great-grandkids). There's still so much pesticide and other chemical residue in most farming areas that organic food is still packed with residues. Eventually, if no more pesticides are applied, the residue levels will drop, but that can take decades or more.


Unfortunately, that is totally irrelevant until regulations ban use of pesticides in organic farming altogether. Again, the pesticides and fungicides used in organic farming are every bit as toxic as the ones allowed for use in conventional farming and in most cases they are less effective so more has to be used.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby michaeljc70 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:33 pm

barnaclebob wrote:I would read more about how organic food isn't any better for you and focus on a good diet in general.


+1

Because something is a buzzword doesn't make it healthy. Organic farming can be WORSE for the environment and no better for you.

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climber2020
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby climber2020 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:44 pm

Huh. I thought it was arsenic. Now the fad is heavy metals I guess.

If you want rice that isn't from around the Mississippi River, go to any Asian supermarket and you can buy a 15 pound bag for 8 bucks. Most of what they sell is grown in California.

Don't stress out about small quantities of toxins. That why we have a liver.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby gkaplan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:10 pm

In before the lock.

I eat organic for certain produce, using the following website as guidance:


http://www.organic.org/articles/showarticle/article-214


I also restrict my diet to gluten-free, lactose-free foods, because I have Chron's disease.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/crohns-disease/basics/lifestyle-home-remedies/con-20032061
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Raybo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:19 pm

I knew what I wrote would get the reaction it got. That is why I said "To each his own."

Don't want to eat organic food? Think it's a waste of money? No reason to worry about chemicals put on/in food. OK, fine.

I don't want a $5,000 watch. I want to eat organic food. I don't want a $50,000 car, I want to ride my bicycle 1,000 miles through the mountains.

I long ago gave up being part of the mainstream thinking.

Maybe you are right and buying organic food is a scam, fraud, waste of time and money, and makes me ugly, too. So be it.

Though, it is comforting to know this thread will disappear soon, anyway.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby mouses » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:23 pm

sunnywindy wrote:There's been fraud in the world organic olive oil market, so I don't see any reason why rice wouldn't be susceptible to this practice. I'll continue to buy as much organic, price dependant, as I can, but I generally trust US/CAN brands more. I also trust the local farmers market farmers who say they are organic.


I think you're thinking of the olive oil fraud where products labelled extra virgin had actually been around the block :-) and had additives, vs. organic/not organic. Perhaps I'm wrong and there have been two olive oil frauds.

I don't trust an inch Whole Foods "organic" products produced in China. I mean, really. I assume there is some degree of fraud out there, but mostly in non-US products.

One can argue about the health benefits of organic produce, but there are other reasons to buy organic. For example, some GMO crops are saturated with Roundup treatments because they have been modified to be resistant. This is death on various other plants found in normal crops, on which pollinators depend.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby docbrown » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:34 pm

misterno wrote:The reason rice has too much heavy metal ingredients is because most comes from areas around Mississipi river which is heavily polluted,


You can eat gluten free without eating a lot of rice. In fact, I eat gluten free and I hardly ever have rice. Most of the processed products that are labeled gluten free are made of rice. Just buy food that lacks gluten, rather than gluten-free labelled food. Today I ate blueberries, heavy cream, cinnamon, grass-fed beef, eggs, mushrooms, bacon, and cheese. No gluten, but no rice either.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby docbrown » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:45 pm

Raybo wrote:I knew what I wrote would get the reaction it got. That is why I said "To each his own."


I agree with you. Less of anything unknown, new, and nutritionally unnecessary is certainly good. It's the precautionary principle. Many of those compounds just haven't been around long enough for us to know the real effects. And what about interactions with other compounds?

I would imagine some claims are exaggerated, but some are not. I would imagine that some synthetic chemicals are harmless, but some aren't. It's not black and white. The important questions are how much does it cost to have less of these things, and is it worth it? And also, can you trust the claims about the pesticide and herbicide levels of the products you buy?

The way I see it, since I can afford it, I might as well buy the best, or what I hope is the best. I might be wasting my money. But it's such a small amount I hardly notice it.

And certain things do taste better organic, like grass-grazed milk, or grass-fed beef. I can't tell the difference between conventional and organic oranges and bananas, but I would buy the organic milk and beef based on taste alone.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby cheese_breath » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:01 pm

They can avoid all the pesticides, synthetic fertilizers and whatever else they want, but unless they're growing it in some kind of special kind of 'organic' soil how can they say it's organic?

To me the only differences between organic and real food is the organic costs more and goes bad sooner.
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby MrsRoos » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:53 pm

misterno wrote:
livesoft wrote:
misterno wrote:What would you do?

Thanks for asking. I'd re-think the whole organic thing and be glad that my cytochrome P450 levels are high.


what is cytochrome P450 ?


These are super cool enzymes found in the liver that helps you metabolize almost everything you consume. Yay, P450s!
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby littlebird » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:54 pm

cheese_breath wrote:They can avoid all the pesticides, synthetic fertilizers and whatever else they want, but unless they're growing it in some kind of special kind of 'organic' soil how can they say it's organic?


From what I've read, to get the organic certification, crops must be grown on soil that has not been treated with chemical pesticides, fungicides or fertilizers for 3 years. So the first two years of non-treated crops cannot legally be sold as "organic".

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby iamlucky13 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:35 am

docbrown wrote:And certain things do taste better organic, like grass-grazed milk, or grass-fed beef. I can't tell the difference between conventional and organic oranges and bananas, but I would buy the organic milk and beef based on taste alone.


The grass fed taste difference is due to having a high proportion of grass and hay in the diet, not due to being organic. The pasturing requirements for organic certification do mean organic beef steers usually get more grass during the finishing stage than most other cattle, but they can still be fed a diet that is primarily grain, and non-organic beef can, of course, be fed grass exclusively, too.

I always preferred grain finished growing up. We switched back and forth frequently depending whether we were eating one of our own steers (grass fed because it was cheaper than grain) or beef from the store. I haven't really revisited the comparison since moving out on my own, though, and what sorts of roughage the steer actually eats can significantly affect the flavor.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby cheesepep » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:37 am

OK, I am more of a rice expert than your average boglehead perhaps.

There are not just two types of rice -- white and brown -- as many people are family with. There are different varieties of white rice and brown rice.

Take white rice for example as I'm not too familiar with brown rice. It is not "unhealthy" as other people think it is due to the low carb, low glycemic index fad. Eating white rice with regular food (such as veggies, meat, etc) greatly reduces the glycemic index of the food overall, as much as 40% (wikipedia reference, I can like to later if needed). Additionally, brown rice, nutritionally, is not that different from white rice.

White rice also has many varieties: short grain (many kinds), long grain (jasmine, basamatti, etc). Short grain is often eaten in Japan, north China, etc. Long grain is more often eaten in south China, Hong Kong, India. Long grain, on average, is less GI heavy than short grain.

There is also red rice, which is vastly nutritionally superior to white rice and brown rice. It is not meant to be eaten by itself. It is often combined with white rice (something along the lines of a 1:15 ratio), which makes it look quite appealing when cooked.

There is also black white (also called purple rice, as it looks purple when cooked). This is even more nutritionally superior and even has antioxidants --more than blueberries. This can be eaten alone (and tastes quite good), and is also often used in desserts when combined with sugar, cinnamon, and other stuff.

There is also sticky rice (as the rice sticks together more than regular rice, sticky rice is also called glutinous rice) which also comes in the white and black variety (and others), that is often used to make cakes, dessert, and clay pot rice dishes. Sticky rice can be combined with regular rice in clay pot dishes for an awesome meal.

Arsenic wise, better not to get your rice grown in the southern US (Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, etc). Get calrose rice (from California) or rice grown in Thailand, which has a lot less arsenic than other places. Of course, wash your rice twice.

For me, I'll probably be eating black rice tonight.

Organic? I don't care and don't pay for it. And there is no reason why organic rice should look different from non-organic rice.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby stoptothink » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:49 am

docbrown wrote:
Raybo wrote:I knew what I wrote would get the reaction it got. That is why I said "To each his own."


I agree with you. Less of anything unknown, new, and nutritionally unnecessary is certainly good. It's the precautionary principle. Many of those compounds just haven't been around long enough for us to know the real effects. And what about interactions with other compounds?

I would imagine some claims are exaggerated, but some are not. I would imagine that some synthetic chemicals are harmless, but some aren't. It's not black and white. The important questions are how much does it cost to have less of these things, and is it worth it? And also, can you trust the claims about the pesticide and herbicide levels of the products you buy?

The way I see it, since I can afford it, I might as well buy the best, or what I hope is the best. I might be wasting my money. But it's such a small amount I hardly notice it.

And certain things do taste better organic, like grass-grazed milk, or grass-fed beef. I can't tell the difference between conventional and organic oranges and bananas, but I would buy the organic milk and beef based on taste alone.


I actually agree as well, but Raybo's statements are based on a false premise. There are generally more pesticides and fungicides used in organic farming because they tend to be less effective, and there is little to no evidence that those natural chemicals are any less toxic for human consumption in large amounts. Organic, GMO; we all should be concerned about the "chemicals" we are consuming every day, but unless we grow all our own food, there is virtually no way to avoid it.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby sls239 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:19 am

Personally, I've decided to forego organic for most things, all else being equal, in favor of contributions to The Nature Conservancy.

And I think that is a reasonable strategy type for someone who is unsure of what value they are getting from the organic label and not interested in making the time investment in researching each individual product to find out.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby ruralavalon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:25 am

Don't even consider gluten free eating unless you have celiac disease.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link:Getting Started

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby cheese_breath » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:33 am

ruralavalon wrote:Don't even consider gluten free eating unless you have celiac disease.

Not quite true. DW has gluten sensitivities that aren't technically classified as celiac, and her symptoms are different.

'Nuff said without risking getting into medical discussions. :wink:
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby stoptothink » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:44 am

ruralavalon wrote:Don't even consider gluten free eating unless you have celiac disease.


This is a whole different issue. The bigger concern is that most gluten-containing foods are filled with all kinds of other garbage. I personally consume zero gluten, but I am not purposely avoiding it.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby gkaplan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:26 am

ruralavalon wrote:Don't even consider gluten free eating unless you have celiac disease.


Please read my response up-thread. I have Crohn's disease. Because of that, I am on a very restricted diet, including lactose-free and gluten-free.
Gordon

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Raybo
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Raybo » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:00 pm

It appears unclear whether organic has less pesticide or not.

From The National Pesticide Information Center (http://npic.orst.edu/health/ovc.html):
Research has demonstrated that organic fruits and vegetables have smaller amounts of pesticide residue than produce that was grown conventionally.


Here is a well-done chart from Consumer Reports that shows produce from different places has different levels of pesticide: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/heal ... /index.htm


Eat what you want. I've been a vegetarian for over 40 years and have had hundreds of discussions/arguments with people over their and my eating habits. I know from long experience that diet is right up there with religion and politics as topics best left alone when talking with others.

I don't care what you think about my reasons for eating organic. I have studied it and have concluded that the price I pay for my organic fruits and vegetables (mostly bought from a local farmer's market) is worth it to me. Clearly, that is not true for many others. To each his/her own.

But, the topic is so fraught with conflicting studies, motivations, and opinions that the truth, should there even be such a thing, is both unclear and obscured.
No matter how long the hill, if you keep pedaling you'll eventually get up to the top.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby mhalley » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:03 pm

At least the rice was actually rice instead of plastic. :D
http://www.snopes.com/plastic-rice-from-china/

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby BBBob » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:35 pm

Raybo wrote:Don't want to eat organic food? Think it's a waste of money? No reason to worry about chemicals put on/in food. OK, fine.

I don't want a $5,000 watch. I want to eat organic food. I don't want a $50,000 car, I want to ride my bicycle 1,000 miles through the mountains.

I long ago gave up being part of the mainstream thinking.


Same attitude here for all of us. We want to encourage good farming practices, minimize the use of pesticides for protection of ourselves, future generations and pollinators, and we put our money where our mouths are. As for scams, the cost of manufacturing a $50,000 car is not much different than the cost of manufacturing a $25,000 car...so I prefer the possible scam to the certain scam.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby VictoriaF » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:18 pm

Raybo wrote:First off, I would ignore all the people who will advise you that buying organic is a waste of money. Now that Roundup is being classed as a health hazard, I'd prefer to eat food that hasn't been (over)dosed with pesticide. To each his own.

For those complaining about the cost of organic food, I have a question: Who will get all the money you will save by buying the cheapest food you can find?

Here is an article from consumerreports.org about Arsenic in rice: https://www.consumerreports.org/content ... 2012_1.pdf . While Mahatma organic brown isn't in the list, several other organic browns are. Maybe you can find your answer in the list.

As for organic and non-organic food "looking" the same, it is clear that one can't tell what the farm practices are by looking in the produce aisle. If you are concerned about being ripped off by people passing non-organic as organic, I'd start by contacting the producer (Mahatma) and then the retailer with your concern. Someone, somewhere has to be able to produce a certificate that shows the food came from an organic source.


My opinions are similar to Raybo's with two additions:
1. I avoid carbohydrate-rich food and thus don't buy either wheat or rice.
2. Much of my organic food (produce, chicken, eggs) comes from Costco and Whole Foods, and I am assuming that Costco and Whole Foods are selecting their suppliers better than other stores.

Victoria
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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby Alto Astral » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:24 pm

cheese_breath wrote:They can avoid all the pesticides, synthetic fertilizers and whatever else they want, but unless they're growing it in some kind of special kind of 'organic' soil how can they say it's organic?

You cannot switch to using putting pesticides one year over the soil and switch to organic the next year. There is a few years you need to be growing without pesticides etc or leave the land as is. After that period, you are allowed to get your product certified organic.

cheese_breath wrote:To me the only differences between organic and real food is the organic costs more and goes bad sooner.

One of the reasons non-organic food do not go bad sooner is that they are irradiated. Small amounts of radiation, perfectly safe for humans (per FDA), to kill bacteria etc. So, no bugs that would make it go bad sooner.

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Re: Suspicious organic products

Postby anoop » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:30 pm

Raybo wrote:First off, I would ignore all the people who will advise you that buying organic is a waste of money. Now that Roundup is being classed as a health hazard, I'd prefer to eat food that hasn't been (over)dosed with pesticide. To each his own.

For those complaining about the cost of organic food, I have a question: Who will get all the money you will save by buying the cheapest food you can find?

Here is an article from consumerreports.org about Arsenic in rice: https://www.consumerreports.org/content ... 2012_1.pdf . While Mahatma organic brown isn't in the list, several other organic browns are. Maybe you can find your answer in the list.

As for organic and non-organic food "looking" the same, it is clear that one can't tell what the farm practices are by looking in the produce aisle. If you are concerned about being ripped off by people passing non-organic as organic, I'd start by contacting the producer (Mahatma) and then the retailer with your concern. Someone, somewhere has to be able to produce a certificate that shows the food came from an organic source.


Arsenic in rice is present even in organic versions. Apparently, rice just sucks it up from the soil. I have not come across any brand of rice, organic or not, that claims to be arsenic free. Maybe it would have to be grown hydroponically or something like that.
http://www.lundberg.com/info/arsenic-in-food/


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