Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 4/14

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smitty1515
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Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 4/14

Post by smitty1515 »

Hello,

I would appreciate any ideas on how I approach this situation. In Feb of 2015 we closed on a new home. I went back and forth on buying new but my thought was my wife really fell in love with this layout, neighborhood, school district, and I liked the idea of just living for 10-15 years before crap started failing.

Well, I've been a little bit off about things not failing as our shingles have been giving us trouble for the last 2+ yrs.

Attached are pictures of the issues we've had with our shingles with the most recent being last week.
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkzUnnOn18YPgShmWOj4TCEDSxj6 - March 2015
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkzUnnOn18YPgS9hOZbll5_TJfC6 - March 2016
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkzUnnOn18YPgTV3Hddm2YvNrS11 - June 2016
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkzUnnOn18YPgTP4Wdfm9XWB1Sp4 - Last week

Here are the facts of the situation:
- They (Pulte) has claimed to "fix" all the issues from March 2015-June 2016
- They warranty the shingle issues for 2 years.
- It has been 2 yr and ~ 3 week since we closed
- They now tell me there is nothing they can do and they are "sorry"
- The roof was put down during cold weather months but we have never had any other issues than the NW side of the roof. I have no clue why the shingles are not sticking in this location.

Here are the steps I've taken:
- Talked to the Pulte customer rep responsible for my property and told him how disappointed I am and what it would feel like if he were me. I knew I wasn't going to get much sympathy but if I can cause him to lose an hour or two of sleep the rest of the week then that would be nice.
- Contacted the shingle company Tamko to submit a request to have my shingles assessed as being defective. I am in the process of that.
- Contacted the MN Tamko rep and spoken with him
- Contacted the sub who roofed my house and who has "repaired" my shingles in the past through Pulte. He is coming out free of charge tomorrow to give me an estimate.
- Contacted Pulte Corporate by tweeting negatively and they have reached out to me already (30 min later) to check on the situation.

So you have the facts of our situation. I would appreciate any assistance of people who have gone through similar and actually had luck with things being done the right way.

Thanks!

Ryan



Updated 3/17

I found a reputable roofer in my community (word of mouth and research). I had them give me an estimate yesterday and have chosen to proceed getting the roof repaired. It has to be taken care of, I can't wait! He took tons of pictures while he was on my roof of poorly set nails, overdriven nails, debris under the shingles, and shingles being un-adhered.

I have begun the claim with Tamko but this is all pointing to poor installation. I am going to submit all the needed materials to Tamko and see what they say but in the mean time I have gotten the managers name of the claim rep I was working with at Pulte and have put together a word document with all the pictures, work orders, email correspondences, and pictures the independent roofer took yesterday. The document is 25 pages long and shows a clear history dating back to March 2015 to current.

In my situation what do you feel I should do:
-Demand they replace the roof and consider lawyering up if they do not. I'm hesitant to do this because of the cost to obtain a good attorney. I have 30k in an emergency fund but don't want to drain it pursuing this when a new roof would cost 15k. I think Pulte knows this and that is why they are such a-holes.
-Demand they pay the bill to get the repair
-Other

I would really appreciate all of your help for ideas!

Ryan
Last edited by smitty1515 on Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. -Warren Buffett
2comma
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by 2comma »

I think you did the right thing getting Tamco involved and I'll guess that they will tell you they were improperly installed. Of course any good roofer can take a look and tell you why the shingles are lifting. I wouldn't mess with the sub that installed and repaired the shingles - he's got no incentive to tell you reason the shingles are coming off. Have you seen similar issues with other houses in the neighborhood?
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smitty1515
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by smitty1515 »

2comma wrote:I think you did the right thing getting Tamco involved and I'll guess that they will tell you they were improperly installed. Of course any good roofer can take a look and tell you why the shingles are lifting. I wouldn't mess with the sub that installed and repaired the shingles - he's got no incentive to tell you reason the shingles are coming off. Have you seen similar issues with other houses in the neighborhood?
Very few. All of the homes in my vicinity (~ 30 ) had no shingle damage last week from the wind. When I spoke to the sub on the phone today he told me the Tamko product Pulte is using on the homes is not very high quality. Of course, I think he is doing this to cover his arse.
Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. -Warren Buffett
iamlucky13
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by iamlucky13 »

smitty1515 wrote: - The roof was put down during cold weather months but we have never had any other issues than the NW side of the roof. I have no clue why the shingles are not sticking in this location.
Because the NW side never gets good sun exposure to heat up the shingles so they stick together, but it probably is getting the wind. Or if they used adhesive to make up for the fact that they installed them on a cold day, they skipped some. That much is understandable. Mistakes happen. Their warranty says they will fix them, not give you a run-around.

The next step in the run-around is to try shift the blame by getting you to file a warranty claim with the shingle manufacturer. I'd consider this the last recourse, because even if the shingle manufacturer accepts responsibility, which they won't if it's an installation defect, they'll probably only pay for replacement shingles, not labor.

It does look to me like an installation defect, not a manufacturing defect, and you discovered it within the home warranty, so as I see it, Pulte should be fixing it. Spending 10 minutes pushing the shingles back down without adhering them is not a fix. It's sounds like either incompetence or a stalling tactic to get them past the warranty period. And since they knew there was a defect, a true fix in my opinion means fixing not only those that lifted in the wind, but also inspecting for any others that are not properly stuck down.

I would not let them off the hook, and in case it needs to go into some form of arbitration or they need a reminder of what they have done or any promises they make, save every written communication about the problem so you have documentation of when it arose and the lack of effective repair. This includes communications and quotes from contractors about their inspection to determine cause and the cost to fix it.

That's my unprofessional opinion, anyways.
tacster
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by tacster »

Were the shingles not nailed down? Also, can't quite tell but it looks like there are no gutters - true?
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smitty1515
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by smitty1515 »

tacster wrote:Were the shingles not nailed down? Also, can't quite tell but it looks like there are no gutters - true?
Shingles were nailed down. I have some that fell off in my garage and there are 4-5 holes per shingle.

On the front the gutters are over the porch below that part of roof.
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flossy21
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by flossy21 »

Shingles have an adhesive stip of tar like substance that is either on the front or back of each shingle. The idea being that the warmth of the sun will melt this adhesive and bond the overlapping shingles to each other. Here's an article that discusses the issue...

https://www.nachi.org/asphalt-comp-shin ... rt5-59.htm

You, or a contractor, will likely have to get a tube of asphalt shingle adhesive and a caulking gun and manually try to lift each shingle. If it raises up then you should squirt the adhesive between where they overlap and then push it down firmly.

I think you are getting good advice with respect to going after the builder. This is an installation issue it seems. You might also contact the local Better Business Bureau and seek satisfaction there as well.
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lthenderson
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by lthenderson »

Seeing that you live in Minnesota and the shingles were installed during the cold months, I'm not surprised by the damage that happened in the spring of 2015. I see that all the time with people pushing the envelope for installing shingles late in the year. My question is what did they do to fix it that time during 2015? Did they just add adhesive or do full shingle replacement? Either way it is hard to tell without a closer inspection but generally it will come down too you have a bad batch of shingles (bad adhesive) or possibly some underlying issue with the installment like not being nailed properly or with the proper fasteners. Going about the route that you are going down will answer the question of which one.
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by adamthesmythe »

tacster wrote:Were the shingles not nailed down? Also, can't quite tell but it looks like there are no gutters - true?
Singles are nailed at the top (where the nails will be covered by other shingles) and there is tar-like adhesive that is supposed to form a bond at the bottom.
TravelforFun
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by TravelforFun »

Wind damage? Your home insurance company may give you a new roof.
Globalviewer58
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by Globalviewer58 »

Save all of the defective shingles that you can. The holes in shingles are where the shingle pulled away from the nailing points. Could be the nails were not applied on the nailing strip target. Shingle pull through can also be due to excess pressure at the nail gun during installation. This condition may not be discoverable at this point. Failure of sealing strip to bond with shingle layer below can be result of too little adhesive in the shingle bottom face. This could be discoverable if you have shingles to compare to new product.
shepherd
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build

Post by shepherd »

I just sued my builder when something was defective (paint was peeling off of the windows). Of course their lawyer sent me a letter claiming I had agreed to arbitration. Regardless, doesn't mean you can't still sue. The builder eventually wrote me a check. Not as much as I had wanted but better than nothing.
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smitty1515
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by smitty1515 »

bumpity bump bump
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adamthesmythe
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by adamthesmythe »

> -Demand they replace the roof and consider lawyering up if they do not.

Your next step is to DO this by writing an actual demand letter and mailing it certified. You don't need a lawyer for this, you can read on the web what should be in such a letter. You should demand a specific amount of compensation.

THEN (if you do not believe that a lawyer will be cost-effective) look into small claims court. In many jurisdictions this gets you into the 5-10K max damages. You might get partial satisfaction.
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CaliJim
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by CaliJim »

It doesn't really cost that much to have a lawyer write a letter to Pulte. A letter from a lawyer is not as expensive as a full blown law suit, and sometime a letter from a lawyer is all you need to get satisfaction from a builder.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by iamlucky13 »

It sounds like you have the evidence pretty well organized. I could see a lawyer being helpful for reviewing your demand letter and providing info on typical level of responsibility for cases like this, assuming you find one with knowledge relevant to new construction defects.

If I were in that situation, I'd be considering a consultation with a lawyer to make sure the case for having Pulte pay for a replacement or at least a thorough inspection and repair is solid, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
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CaliJim
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by CaliJim »

A good waterproof membrane on the roof is very very important. Roofs and windows are usually the first thing to fail in the structure of a house. Think of all the pictures of very old buildings with intact walls but no roof. And the failures can start with a small leak.

Since you started reporting the issue before the end of the 2 year warranty... Pulte is still on the hook... as far as I'm concerned. Don't let them brush you off.

Getting a lawyer involved earlier rather than later is good. And there are likely other home owners in the same boat. Send out letters to your neighbors and ask them.
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lthenderson
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by lthenderson »

It just goes to show, something like putting on a roof isn't that difficult but there are a lot of ways someone can screw it up if they don't know what they are doing. It sounds like your original roofer or crew didn't know what they were doing.

I would send a claim, along with copies of the pictures showing what a crappy job the first crew asking for due compensation to replace your entire roof. I would also tell them that if not duly compensated I will be contacting a lawyer and submitting a claim to the Better Business Bureau (BBB) of your state. I have submitted claims to the BBB before and have been extremely satisfied with the results I have gotten each time. All complaints filed with the BBB are open record and reputable businesses generally want to have their record clean. Generally I'm guessing they will try to settle with you by repaying what you originally paid to have the roof installed or for materials only. I doubt they would pay a third party for their labor. Once you get the settlement offer, then you have to decide if the difference in money is worth the pain and staying up late worrying about a lawsuit.

If all us fails and they still hold out, I would have a lawyer send a letter threatening a lawsuit if they don't compensate you. If that doesn't work, then you either have to follow through or swallow the bitter pill. If you choose the bitter pill, by all means make sure you spread the word with the BBB and other rating sites along with the pictures if they allow it. Pictures are worth a thousand words!
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smitty1515
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by smitty1515 »

I have submitted an inquiry online to attorneys in the Minneapolis and St. Paul metro that deal with new construction issues. I am hoping for a free consultation where i can find out their advice which includes whether I should generate the letter to Pulte or they should, how much in legal fees I could expect to pay if I chose to lawyer up, and whether I have a leg to stand on.

I just got done going through my email archive and I have a 30 page word document with emails between me and the construction site manager, service manager 1, service manager 2, service manager 3, photos, and work orders.

I hate this kind of stuff, if it was up to me I would be spending my time doing something more productive with my life but that is what Pulte wants me to do and I refuse to let them get away with poor work. This is less about money and more about lack of accountability on their part in my opinion. I do not find it ethical to submit a claim to my homeowners insurance because this is on Pulte.

Thanks for all the comments so far; I'm trying to be level headed and process facts rather than making this personal.
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by donall »

You could also have poor quality nails. We had to have our roofer redo part of the roof because the nails were not galvanized.
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by CaliJim »

Glad you are looking into lawyering up and not letting them off the hook. Let us know how it turns out.
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smitty1515
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 3/17 in the bottom of original post

Post by smitty1515 »

Here is the update:

I contacted the Minnesota Dept of Labor and found out there was a labor fund put in place for faulty work. The kicker is you had to win a law suit to tap into it.

I called 3 lawyers after I started this post and not one of them would look at my document without charging $300 per hour. I decided not to pursue this means because a new roof would cost approximately 8-10k and legal fees would rack up.

At the same time I was doing this I submitted a claim to Tamko and today I got a letter in the mail. Within the letter it stated that they were using the following proration calculation of 100% coverage, 35 squares affected, labor rate of $230/square for a total of $8050 + $100.

I feel like all the behind the scenes work was worth it and feel pretty good about this :).

Thank you all for your words of encouragement and advice.

Ryan
Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. -Warren Buffett
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Re: Shingle concerns with relatively new build *updated 4/14

Post by iamlucky13 »

Glad to hear that. Good work.

I honestly expected the manufacturer to fight it or offer a pittance of a pay out, since it seemed to me much more likely to be an installation error than a shingle defect. Apparently they concluded there was at least a good chance it was a shingle defect. Good on them for standing by the product.
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