Camry Redesign

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anonenigma
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Camry Redesign

Post by anonenigma » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:35 pm

It's getting to be time to replace my 2000 Camry.

I don't know much about cars, but I've been reading about the 2018 Camry redesign. With the new TNGA architecture, the handling will apparently be better than the 2017 model. Also, the engine is expected to be more efficient, and there will be more standard safety features, including automatic braking.

Should I wait? Should I consider either a Prius (I'm concerned about the cost of eventual battery repair) or Rav 4? A Honda or Hyundai? I'm tall, and all three of the Toyotas have enough head and leg room for me. I'll probably be driving about 10-12,000 miles per year, more on streets than on freeways.

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Alexa9
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Alexa9 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:39 pm

New Accord and Camry this year. Patience.

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dm200
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dm200 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:25 pm

anonenigma wrote:It's getting to be time to replace my 2000 Camry.
I don't know much about cars, but I've been reading about the 2018 Camry redesign. With the new TNGA architecture, the handling will apparently be better than the 2017 model. Also, the engine is expected to be more efficient, and there will be more standard safety features, including automatic braking.
Should I wait? Should I consider either a Prius (I'm concerned about the cost of eventual battery repair) or Rav 4? A Honda or Hyundai? I'm tall, and all three of the Toyotas have enough head and leg room for me. I'll probably be driving about 10-12,000 miles per year, more on streets than on freeways.


I can't cite a reference, but I seem to recall some kind of merging the Camry and Prius platforms. What about a Camry Hybrid?

anonenigma
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by anonenigma » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:49 pm

dm200 wrote:
I can't cite a reference, but I seem to recall some kind of merging the Camry and Prius platforms. What about a Camry Hybrid?


I believe that you are correct, and the 2017 Prius has already implemented the TNGA architecture. With the small amount of driving I do, I'm not sure that the premium for a hybrid (with battery replacement in 10-12 years) is merited.

gnujoe2001
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by gnujoe2001 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:41 pm

We have a 2005 Camry in our garage, as well as a (on loan) 2016 RAV-4. I doesn't look like it from the outside, but just so you know, there's about a 5-6" shortage in rear seat hip room with the RAV4 compared to the Camry. It's noticeably tight in the RAV with 2 car seats and a booster, whereas the same models seats fit easily in the Camry.

If you really like how your Camry (either I4 or V6) drives, IMO don't consider the RAV. The Rav's 4-cylinder (no V6 option) is a bit under-powered and needs more room for highway merging.

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William4u
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by William4u » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:47 pm

The 2018 Camry will have TSS-P standard on all trims, which IMHO is huge. The safety features have been shown to be "the new seat belt."

http://www.toyota.com/owners/resources/ ... fety-sense

KT785
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by KT785 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:18 pm

As a matter of personal preference, I'd wait until at least the second year of a new generation--can you wait until the 2019 Camry comes out? The first model year of a car after a major redesign will likely have the most issues of all model years of a generation (due to the redesign) which will be corrected in subsequent model years. I speak from experience with two previous cars (Honda and Buick) that I should have waited at least another year to buy.

Ultimately, it's a Camry and will be pretty reliable regardless, but if it were me, I'd wait until the second or third year for the new generation of Camry (2019 or 2020 model years) if you can hold out that long.

I just purchased a 2017 Subaru Outback which is the third year of this generation. :happy

BeneIRA
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by BeneIRA » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:24 pm

KT785 wrote:As a matter of personal preference, I'd wait until at least the second year of a new generation--can you wait until the 2019 Camry comes out? The first model year of a car after a major redesign will likely have the most issues of all model years of a generation (due to the redesign) which will be corrected in subsequent model years. I speak from experience with two previous cars (Honda and Buick) that I should have waited at least another year to buy.

Ultimately, it's a Camry and will be pretty reliable regardless, but if it were me, I'd wait until the second or third year for the new generation of Camry (2019 or 2020 model years) if you can hold out that long.

I just purchased a 2017 Subaru Outback which is the third year of this generation. :happy


I second this. Just look at the 2012 Honda Civic versus the 2013 Civic. Honda may not have put their best foot forward with the 2012... In all seriousness, a family member had been burned a couple of times by getting the latest and greatest and not waiting one year. Most recently, he bought the first year of the new Camry about two or three designs ago and it had nothing but problems. Looking through forums, it looks like Honda had issues with the 2016 redesign of the Civic that they more or less corrected in the 2017.

KT785
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by KT785 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:26 pm

BeneIRA wrote:
KT785 wrote:As a matter of personal preference, I'd wait until at least the second year of a new generation--can you wait until the 2019 Camry comes out? The first model year of a car after a major redesign will likely have the most issues of all model years of a generation (due to the redesign) which will be corrected in subsequent model years. I speak from experience with two previous cars (Honda and Buick) that I should have waited at least another year to buy.

Ultimately, it's a Camry and will be pretty reliable regardless, but if it were me, I'd wait until the second or third year for the new generation of Camry (2019 or 2020 model years) if you can hold out that long.

I just purchased a 2017 Subaru Outback which is the third year of this generation. :happy


I second this. Just look at the 2012 Honda Civic versus the 2013 Civic. Honda may not have put their best foot forward with the 2012... In all seriousness, a family member had been burned a couple of times by getting the latest and greatest and not waiting one year. Most recently, he bought the first year of the new Camry about two or three designs ago and it had nothing but problems. Looking through forums, it looks like Honda had issues with the 2016 redesign of the Civic that they more or less corrected in the 2017.


The 2012 Civic was actually the previous Honda I'd referenced in my post . . .

pyld76
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by pyld76 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:35 pm

Ditto the bit about the second model year of a new car, much less one on a new platform, and then one which (according to Toyota itself) is a pretty radical departure from it's predecessor. I'd plan on giving the folks in Kentucky a year to figure out how to build it right.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by mmmodem » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:58 pm

anonenigma wrote:I believe that you are correct, and the 2017 Prius has already implemented the TNGA architecture. With the small amount of driving I do, I'm not sure that the premium for a hybrid (with battery replacement in 10-12 years) is merited.

This does not compute. There is no premium for a Prius over a Camry. Total cost of ownership is lower on a Prius regardless of the amount driving you do. Doesn't matter if you drive all freeway or local. If you prefer to compare to a Corolla, then you'll need $4 gasoline to make up the premium.

Mandatory Prius battery replacement is a myth. The rates of replacement is in the order of ~4% depending on age. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm
Since the Prius uses regenerative braking, doesn't have a traditional transmission, nor does it have moving drive belts. The chances of things breaking down are less likely versus a traditional car, even a Camry. http://www.consumerreports.org/car-reli ... able-cars/

In fact, in some states the battery is warrantied for 10 years/150,000 miles. Full disclosure, I drive not 1 but 2 Prius. I bought it for solo carpool access and believed all the myths and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt) that was spread about hybrids at first. I really did not want to buy the Prius but it was my only way into the HOV lanes.

One month into ownership, I realized, I'm paying less insurance. I am saving not only fuel costs but maintenance as well. 15 inch tires cost a lot less than 17" ones on family sedans. The brake pads may last over 100,000 miles due to regenerative braking. And that is why I bought a second one. My 2005 Prius has no issues with the battery. I am just 1 data point, but I am part of the 96% that will not have any issues. Good odds for a 12 year old car.

lazydavid
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by lazydavid » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:06 am

BeneIRA wrote:I second this. Just look at the 2012 Honda Civic versus the 2013 Civic. Honda may not have put their best foot forward with the 2012... In all seriousness, a family member had been burned a couple of times by getting the latest and greatest and not waiting one year. Most recently, he bought the first year of the new Camry about two or three designs ago and it had nothing but problems. Looking through forums, it looks like Honda had issues with the 2016 redesign of the Civic that they more or less corrected in the 2017.


To be fair though, while the 2012 Civic certainly was the latest, every single review/comment about it at the time of its release was unanimous in declaring it NOT the greatest. I can't even count the number of times I heard or read the phrase "a significant step down from the 2011 in terms of ride, build quality, and interior cheapness". Consumer reports stopped recommending the Civic for the first time ever, based on their own review. It was so bad that Honda raced through the 2013 re-redesign, which may be the first time in history that a volume family sedan had its mid-cycle refresh 16 months after its initial launch.

I would be extremely surprised if the 2018 Camry is anything like the debacle that the 2012 Civic was. Either way, we'll know within a few months of its release.

GDBryan
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by GDBryan » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:52 am

If you like your Camry, don't buy the Rav4. I have an older Camry and my wife has a newer Rav4. The Camry is much smoother while you feel every little bump with the Rav4. I asked the dealer about making her's ride softer and they just shrugged.

dbltrbl
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dbltrbl » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:56 am

I would not worry about battery replacement. As an owner of 2006 Prius with 150000 Miles have not had any issues with batteries so far. Knock on wood. My other hybrid is Camry not quiet 3 years yet so who knows.

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Midpack
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Midpack » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:27 am

I'm always skittish about buying the first year of a redesign no matter what make and model, I'd wait if possible.

There are two valid reasons people buy hybrids, high mpg is only one, the other is lower emissions (less often mentioned). An individual choice.

Hybrid batteries are lasting longer than people expected, and replacement while not cheap, isn't as expensive as it was in the early years (link below). The other thing I was very concerned about was resale, because of the batteries - that's turned out better than expected too as hybrid resale is comparable to the same non-hybrid model. Toyota hybrid technology is well proven, the Prius has been in continuous production for 20 years - since 1997 (Japan) though it didn't appear in the US until 2000. Here some good info on hybrid batteries. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/107 ... cost-guide

We have a 2012 Prius and a 2007 Camry Hybrid. After 10 years and 120K miles it's still running perfectly, no reason to expect the batteries to quit anytime soon. Hybrids have gone 300K on their original batteries now. Our Prius has 40K, it's provided 44-55 mpg (less in winter), and it's been flawless reliability so far of course. But I'm not sure I'd buy another Prius. Ours has lots of annoying rattles that come and go (so undiagnosable?), unlike the 7 other Toyotas and Hondas we've owned. And if you like driving, the Prius is almost like a transportation appliance, all the fun of driving is missing IMO. The new Prius is ugly IMO, inside and out.

Best of luck no matter what you decide, something for everyone.
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:45 am

anonenigma wrote:It's getting to be time to replace my 2000 Camry.

I don't know much about cars, but I've been reading about the 2018 Camry redesign. With the new TNGA architecture, the handling will apparently be better than the 2017 model. Also, the engine is expected to be more efficient, and there will be more standard safety features, including automatic braking.

Should I wait? Should I consider either a Prius (I'm concerned about the cost of eventual battery repair) or Rav 4? A Honda or Hyundai? I'm tall, and all three of the Toyotas have enough head and leg room for me. I'll probably be driving about 10-12,000 miles per year, more on streets than on freeways.


Given various missteps, the year of a major redesign is probably *not* the year to buy a new model of a car. Wait for the 2nd year? Don't be a "beta tester" for the manufacturer?

Re Prius. If it's cost driven, unless you do a *lot* of mileage stop-and-go urban, you probably won't come out ahead financially at current gas prices. Also the way one drives a Prius is different-- this is not a high performance car.

I think the battery pack issue is now something of a red herring-- Priuses (Prii? ;-)) have been popular long enough, enough sold, that it doesn't appear to be a big issue for owners.

However:

- there are ethical issues, perhaps, which might influence you

- gas prices could go right back up again (I must say I don't expect so, because industry economics have changed (fracking means supply is much more sensitive to demand, so a rise in price triggers a relatively quick increase in supply); however no one has ever successfully forecast oil prices in the medium term, to my knowledge). So you've bought a hedge-- if you are planning to own the car more than 4-5 years say then that's a good thing. Gasoline goes back over $4/ US gallon must be a realistic threat in the 10 year view.

Car technology is changing so fast that there is, Lord help me for saying it!, a rationale to lease. In 4-5 years time cars will be quite different (even if the US eases back on mpg regulation).

But let's assume not, that you want this next car to be another 15 year+ keeper then:

- don't buy a new or much altered model in its first year

- hold back as long as you can

- consider a hybrid if you can handle the other driving/ comfort issues (Prius owners tend to find the car meets their expectations; high satisfaction rates, suggesting only a certain type of buyer buys Prius (segue to South Park episode ;-)) i.e. if you genuinely like the car, otherwise

I live in a big city (London, UK) where there are serious air pollution issues. Until the VW scandal broke, I could have seen buying a highly efficient diesel car but air pollution (micro particulates and NOx) are critical here, among the worst levels in Europe, so I can see increased regulation coming down the track. Therefore, here, I would only now buy a petrol engined hybrid or Plug In Hybrid Electric Vehicle, because I can imagine a time not so far in the future (ie within 15 years) when that's the only thing that's going to be legal.

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dm200
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dm200 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:04 am

1. Generally, I believe it is better to wait until the second model year after a major change or redesign of a model, although I am sure there are exceptions.

2. I find the Wikipedia article on car models and their history very informative. These articles help sort out what are major design changes and what are not. They also can point out what different models are really the same "under the covers" and model names. So, for example, what might seem to be a new design/model for one year might have been introduced previously as another name/model. For example, the Toyota Avalon at one time was nased on the Toyota Camry, but then changed to be based on a Lexus model. Some models, for example, may be intoduced earlier or later in different countries.

3. It seems that the Toyota Camry gets a new design every five years and that has been the pattern over many decades. In some cases, a new design is actually a completely different car - and only the name "Camry" is the same from one model year to the next.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by steve50 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:59 am

At least on Honda hybrids, when the battery is not running efficiently as it should, it will trigger an engine light to be turned ON. If the engine light is ON, it will NOT pass annual state inspection. So on a perfectly good running car, you are forced to change the expensive hybrid battery. No used car dealer will buy this car also. Any gas savings from hybrid at that point is gone and you have to decide to junk a perfectly good running car or replace the hybrid battery which will costs (I was quoted $4,800) more then a same used regular car. I ended up donating the car.

If you are planning to keep the car long term or till the end, never by hybrids.
Last edited by steve50 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dm200
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dm200 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:47 pm

If you are planning to keep the car long term or till the end, never by hybrids.


Interesting conclusion! This seems to be the opposite of common recommendations, although I certainly see how you reached this conclusion.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by sc9182 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:13 pm

dm200 wrote:
you have to decide to junk a perfectly good running car .. If you are planning to keep the car long term or till the end, never by hybrids.

Interesting conclusion! This seems to be the opposite of common recommendations, although I certainly see how you reached this conclusion.


As of 2014 - there are 31 states which require state inspection. Google "What states require vehicle inspection stickers?" for the list of these states.

Beg to differ on "junk"ing a perfectly running car - there are many ways to skin this cat - what typically portrayed as a $4K-$5K hybrid battery cost - can be mitigated with not-so-new but still perfectly running (warranted for 1-year) batteries for less than $1K. Or, sell it to a buyer/dealer in the non state-mandated inspection geography (ofcourse, expect to incur price reduction, and hassle with out of state dealing)

What was the stat that said less than 4% of hybrid batteries fail at 10-years, and most are replaced under warranty by manufacturer. Yes - the rate of failure incidents may go-up slightly more than 4% after 10-years. If replacement batteries (non-dealer parts with 1-year warranty) can be had for $1K -- an incremental 4% chance of $1K cost after 10+ years of ownership should not be a drag on TCO. Besides -- Toyota, in particular is known to do warranty adjustment for right causes/conditions with showing proper justification/care.

This is like Tivo HDs with life-time subscription. Even with failed-disk in Tivo - it retains decent resale value due to its "lifetime" service/subscription-plan. Don't worry too much about "disk-failure" aspect and fail to notice a good deal/ownership experience. BTW - my $100 deal on Tivo HD units (2) running fine, 5 years so far, albeit everybody scared me about failed-disks and such.

With current lull in gas-prices, many of the folks are moving-away from cars/hybrids into buying SUVs/Trucks. Hence, this may be the BEST time to land a deal on a car or better-yet: land a highly discounted Hybrid deal! With current Hybrid discounts - your future 4% chance of $1K cost -- is rewarded $$ many times-over at net-present value (due to ongoing hybrid/car discounts). Now, not every hybrid car-manufacturer are the same -- here use your discretion in choosing "right" hybrid/manufacturer.
Last edited by sc9182 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

david99
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by david99 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:16 pm

You may want to wait until the 2018 Camry has been out for six months. After six months you can go on the Camry forums and see what kind of issues people are having. I'm also considering buying the 2018 Camry but I'll wait at least of few months to read some reviews ---- as long as my older car continues to run well and just needs some minor maintenance. It looks like the 2018 Camry is a major redesign.
Last edited by david99 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Midpack
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Midpack » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:17 pm

steve50 wrote:At least on Honda hybrids, when the battery is not running efficiently as it should, it will trigger an engine light to be turned ON. If the engine light is ON, it will NOT pass annual state inspection. So on a perfectly good running car, you are forced to change the expensive hybrid battery. No used car dealer will buy this car also. Any gas savings from hybrid at that point is gone and you have to decide to junk a perfectly good running car or replace the hybrid battery which will cost more then a same used regular car.

If you are planning to keep the car long term or till the end, never by hybrids.

Misleading, drawing those conclusions based on your one data point is flawed? Our 10 year old Camry Hybrid has passed inspection every time, including last summer. Hopefully the OP will do some research if he/she decides to consider a hybrid.

If the issue you describe was widely true, we'd have all heard about it by now. More and more automakers are rolling out hybrids, they wouldn't be doing so if hybrids were destined to be 'junked' anytime soon...
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by stlutz » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:35 pm

How many safety improvements have there been on cars since you bought your 2000 Camry? Quite a lot, I think.

Will the 2018 Camry be better than the 2017 in this regard? Certainly yes. However, how does that balance out against the risk of driving your 17 year old car another year (or two) vs. driving a newer car now? That's less clear.

In terms of comparing a Camry vs a RAV4 or a Prius, they are three very different cars. The Prius is less expensive than a Camry and is a smaller car. If you like sedans and hate hatchbacks, you'll never like a Prius. If you like hatchbacks and hate sedans, the Prius is a no-brainer--I personally find hatchbacks to be so much more practical. Hence I like my Prius and would never even consider a Camry.

I also think all of the talk about the first year of a model update as something to be avoided is way overdone in this thread. The technology that that OP is asking about on the 2018 Camry has been on other Toyota cars for a while now. When I've looked at Consumer Reports surveys on reliability, I don't see score plunges for the first model year. I think that may be one of those things that was more true a couple of decades back. Then again, I'm pretty much only looking at Toyotas--might be different for other makes.
Last edited by stlutz on Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sc9182
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by sc9182 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:53 pm

stlutz wrote:I also think all of the talk about the first year of a model update as something to be avoided is way overdone in this thread. The technology that that OP is asking about on the 2018 Camry has been on other Toyota cars for a while now. When I've looked at Consumer Reports surveys on reliability, I don't see score plunges for the first model year. I think that may be done of those things that was more true a couple of decades back. Then again, I'm pretty much only looking at Toyotas--might be different for other makes.


Concur. Toyota, in-particular, of all the manufacturers, does incremental rapid and continuous improvements with its JIT production and quality process. Remediations are often made within first few months itself, without waiting for "next-year" cycle, let alone waiting for a refresh cycle! Heard very first cars on the lot (2-4 months on a big-city/volume dealers) may found to have small hiccups, like door-trim mis-alignment etc., but since will be addressed by Toyota in next few months cycles (within the same year). Also, dealers more willing to apply those fixes if found on last few months of cars sold. That may be one of the reasons for Toyotas not-taking a reliability hit during a model-refresh year, as tracked by "consumer reports". Anybody who works/worked for Toyotas care to share a better insight on this specific subject?

Wonder when Toyotas produces a "more" powerful base engine for their class, though :-)

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by BlueEars » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:01 pm

stlutz wrote:How many safety improvements have there been on cars since you bought your 2000 Camry? Quite a lot, I think.

Will the 2018 Camry be better than the 2017 in this regard? Certainly yes. However, how does that balance out against the risk of driving your 17 year old car another year (or two) vs. driving a newer car now? That's less clear.

In terms of comparing a Camry vs a RAV4 or a Prius, they are three very different cars. The Prius is less expensive than a Camry and is a smaller car. If you like sedans and hate hatchbacks, you'll never like a Prius. If you like hatchbacks and hate sedans, the Prius is a no-brainer--I personally find hatchbacks to be so much more practical. Hence I like my Prius and would never even consider a Camry.

I also think all of the talk about the first year of a model update as something to be avoided is way overdone in this thread. The technology that that OP is asking about on the 2018 Camry has been on other Toyota cars for a while now. When I've looked at Consumer Reports surveys on reliability, I don't see score plunges for the first model year. I think that may be done of those things that was more true a couple of decades back. Then again, I'm pretty much only looking at Toyotas--might be different for other makes.

Very interesting counterpoints.

What about safety in crash tests? Is the Prius as good as the Camry?

I somewhat answered my own question by looking here: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List
Seems the Prius is a bit better then the Camry.

We have a very nice running 2002 Camry that has only about 70k miles on it. But maybe it is time to buy a newer, safer car?

randomguy
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by randomguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:16 pm

BlueEars wrote:
stlutz wrote:How many safety improvements have there been on cars since you bought your 2000 Camry? Quite a lot, I think.

Will the 2018 Camry be better than the 2017 in this regard? Certainly yes. However, how does that balance out against the risk of driving your 17 year old car another year (or two) vs. driving a newer car now? That's less clear.

In terms of comparing a Camry vs a RAV4 or a Prius, they are three very different cars. The Prius is less expensive than a Camry and is a smaller car. If you like sedans and hate hatchbacks, you'll never like a Prius. If you like hatchbacks and hate sedans, the Prius is a no-brainer--I personally find hatchbacks to be so much more practical. Hence I like my Prius and would never even consider a Camry.

I also think all of the talk about the first year of a model update as something to be avoided is way overdone in this thread. The technology that that OP is asking about on the 2018 Camry has been on other Toyota cars for a while now. When I've looked at Consumer Reports surveys on reliability, I don't see score plunges for the first model year. I think that may be done of those things that was more true a couple of decades back. Then again, I'm pretty much only looking at Toyotas--might be different for other makes.

Very interesting counterpoints.

What about safety in crash tests? Is the Prius as good as the Camry?

I somewhat answered my own question by looking here: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List
Seems the Prius is a bit better then the Camry.

We have a very nice running 2002 Camry that has only about 70k miles on it. But maybe it is time to buy a newer, safer car?


2002 Camry is a lot less safe than the 2017 prius or camry. But the over all risk reductions ( say from 20 deaths per 10million miles to 10) isn't that huge. Your odds of dying might be cut in half but your odds of dying are still tiny.


It is important to remember what they mean by all new model. It rarely means all new. It normally means new sheet metal and maybe a frame. Things like engines, transmissions, electronics, and so on a shared across numerous models so the bugs get worked on one of them, not all of them. Every now and then a change messes things up (the 9 speed tranmission honda used in new models has been prone to issues) but a lot of times the changes are pretty seamless.

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telemark
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by telemark » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:36 pm

If you're looking at mid-size hybrids, Chevy is claiming 49mpg city for the Malibu hybrid.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dm200 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:03 pm

2002 Camry is a lot less safe than the 2017 prius or camry. But the over all risk reductions ( say from 20 deaths per 10million miles to 10) isn't that huge. Your odds of dying might be cut in half but your odds of dying are still tiny.

Using your example, I regard the risk difference as "noise level". I suspect that safe driving factors are even more "significant", such as wearing seatbelts, driving mostly is slow speed areas, staying within the speed limits, not drinking or testing or using cell phone while driving, etc.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by William4u » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:32 pm

dm200 wrote:2002 Camry is a lot less safe than the 2017 prius or camry. But the over all risk reductions ( say from 20 deaths per 10million miles to 10) isn't that huge. Your odds of dying might be cut in half but your odds of dying are still tiny.

Using your example, I regard the risk difference as "noise level". I suspect that safe driving factors are even more "significant", such as wearing seatbelts, driving mostly is slow speed areas, staying within the speed limits, not drinking or testing or using cell phone while driving, etc.


Going from 20 to 10 fatalities per million miles is a 50% reduction is risk, which might be called significant. However, it isn't just that one's change of dying is 50% less in the newer car, but the severity of injury is 90% less for non-fatal crashes (which make up the vast majority of crashes). For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.

There is a strong argument to be made for the value of the reduced risk of serious injury in the newer car.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by William4u » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:39 pm

BlueEars wrote:
stlutz wrote:How many safety improvements have there been on cars since you bought your 2000 Camry? Quite a lot, I think.

Will the 2018 Camry be better than the 2017 in this regard? Certainly yes. However, how does that balance out against the risk of driving your 17 year old car another year (or two) vs. driving a newer car now? That's less clear.

In terms of comparing a Camry vs a RAV4 or a Prius, they are three very different cars. The Prius is less expensive than a Camry and is a smaller car. If you like sedans and hate hatchbacks, you'll never like a Prius. If you like hatchbacks and hate sedans, the Prius is a no-brainer--I personally find hatchbacks to be so much more practical. Hence I like my Prius and would never even consider a Camry.

I also think all of the talk about the first year of a model update as something to be avoided is way overdone in this thread. The technology that that OP is asking about on the 2018 Camry has been on other Toyota cars for a while now. When I've looked at Consumer Reports surveys on reliability, I don't see score plunges for the first model year. I think that may be done of those things that was more true a couple of decades back. Then again, I'm pretty much only looking at Toyotas--might be different for other makes.

Very interesting counterpoints.

What about safety in crash tests? Is the Prius as good as the Camry?

I somewhat answered my own question by looking here: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List
Seems the Prius is a bit better then the Camry.

We have a very nice running 2002 Camry that has only about 70k miles on it. But maybe it is time to buy a newer, safer car?


The 2017 Prius is safer than a 2017 Camry because the Prius now comes with TSS-P standard (their complete suite of advanced safety features which include automatic electronic emergency braking). You cannot get TSS-P on a 2017 Camry, which came out too early to be based on the new Toyota global architecture that includes TSS-P. The 2018 Camry will be based on the new global architecture, will have TSS-P standard, and will be overall a little safer than the 2018 Prius (simply because larger cars are a little safer).

http://www.toyota.com/owners/resources/ ... fety-sense

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dm200 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:10 pm

For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.


According to this http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php all accidental deaths (car accidents were only a part) were the #4 cause of death in 2014.

From what I read, I see no support for your claim.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Epsilon Delta » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:26 pm

dm200 wrote:
For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.


According to this http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php all accidental deaths (car accidents were only a part) were the #4 cause of death in 2014.

From what I read, I see no support for your claim.

Road traffic accidents are broken out here.

The only cohort were RTA are the number one cause of death are 15-25 year olds.* This is partly because of the hecatomb of teen driving, but also because they are too old to die of birth defects and too young to die of heart disease. i.e. RTAs are a large fraction of a relatively small number of deaths among young adults.

* IIRC RTA would also be the number one cause of death for children of particular ages, but this data is not split into single year bands.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by William4u » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:39 pm

dm200 wrote:
For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.


According to this http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php all accidental deaths (car accidents were only a part) were the #4 cause of death in 2014.

From what I read, I see no support for your claim.


You misread what I wrote. I said for most Americans in any one year of their lives, the #1 risk is a car crash. For only a few of the later years of life is a risk of heart attack higher than risk of accidental death.

Most Americans are under the age of 40. Most deaths are above the age of 40. The highest risks of the younger people are accidents, as opposed to cancer or heart disease. That is what I was referring to. The fact that accidental death is the #4 cause of death OVERALL is irrelevant to what I said. That data skews to mostly older people who are dying from cancer and heart disease. My statement was covering everybody, including babies.

For example, for a 20 year old women in the US, the highest risk of dying is from accidental poisoning. Why? Because women that age hardly die from anything at all. The woman that do die at that age are outliers. Babies that die are outliers. For many of these groups, accidental death is their highest risk of dying THIS YEAR. It is not necessarily the highest risk of their dying in their lifetimes, though.

I was talking about the highest risk of an American dying in the next 12 months. Most Americans have virtually zero risk of dying from heart disease in the next 12 months, for example, but have a very high LIFETIME risk of dying from it.

So, for example, my children's highest risk of dying over the next 12 months is from accidental death, since they are young and healthy with good health insurance.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by dm200 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:44 pm

William4u wrote:
dm200 wrote:
For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.

According to this http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php all accidental deaths (car accidents were only a part) were the #4 cause of death in 2014.
From what I read, I see no support for your claim.

You misread what I wrote. I said for most Americans in any one year of their lives, the #1 risk is a car crash. For only a few of the later years of life is a risk of heart attack higher than risk of accidental death.
Most Americans are under the age of 40. Most deaths are above the age of 40. The highest risks of the younger people are accidents, as opposed to cancer or heart disease. That is what I was referring to. The fact that accidental death is the #4 cause of death OVERALL is irrelevant to what I said. That data skews to mostly older people who are dying from cancer and heart disease. My statement was covering everybody, including babies.
For example, for a 20 year old women in the US, the highest risk of dying is from accidental poisoning. Why? Because women that age hardly die from anything at all. The woman that do die at that age are outliers. Babies that die are outliers. For many of these groups, accidental death is their highest risk of dying THIS YEAR. It is not necessarily the highest risk of their dying in their lifetimes, though.
I was talking about the highest risk of an American dying in the next 12 months. Most Americans have virtually zero risk of dying from heart disease in the next 12 months, for example, but have a very high LIFETIME risk of dying from it.
So, for example, my children's highest risk of dying over the next 12 months is from accidental death, since they are young and healthy with good health insurance.


OK, but the risks of death or serious injury are still very low, especially for drivers who are low risk (no drinkng, speeding, cell phone use while driving, not high miles driven).

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by randomguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:02 pm

William4u wrote:
dm200 wrote:
For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.


According to this http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php all accidental deaths (car accidents were only a part) were the #4 cause of death in 2014.

From what I read, I see no support for your claim.


You misread what I wrote. I said for most Americans in any one year of their lives, the #1 risk is a car crash. For only a few of the later years of life is a risk of heart attack higher than risk of accidental death.

Most Americans are under the age of 40. Most deaths are above the age of 40. The highest risks of the younger people are accidents, as opposed to cancer or heart disease. That is what I was referring to. The fact that accidental death is the #4 cause of death OVERALL is irrelevant to what I said. That data skews to mostly older people who are dying from cancer and heart disease. My statement was covering everybody, including babies.

For example, for a 20 year old women in the US, the highest risk of dying is from accidental poisoning. Why? Because women that age hardly die from anything at all. The woman that do die at that age are outliers. Babies that die are outliers. For many of these groups, accidental death is their highest risk of dying THIS YEAR. It is not necessarily the highest risk of their dying in their lifetimes, though.

I was talking about the highest risk of an American dying in the next 12 months. Most Americans have virtually zero risk of dying from heart disease in the next 12 months, for example, but have a very high LIFETIME risk of dying from it.

So, for example, my children's highest risk of dying over the next 12 months is from accidental death, since they are young and healthy with good health insurance.


Even in accidental deaths, cars are not #1 very often

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/ ... 2011-a.pdf

Note they break suicide into a bunch of groups and you can debate how many of the accidental poisonings were suicide attempts.

Most americans have virtually zero risk of dying in a car accident in the next 12 months. It might be one of the more likely ways to die, but the odds of dying are so low to start with.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Crimsontide » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:15 pm

Camry redesign?? I just bought a 2017 in November :oops:

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by anonenigma » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:52 am

Thank you for all the great insights. My conclusion is that I should take a closer look at the Prius, which in 2017 is in the first year of its redesign and has the full safety package standard. Maybe its second year, the 2018, would be the car to buy. If I decide that I prefer another Camry, I should read the reviews after the 2018 is released and wait a few months to see if issues arise. Even better would be to wait for the 2019 Camry.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by just frank » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:11 am

If you look at the Prius, you should ask about the Plug-in Prius Prime. With EV incentives, it can often be cheaper to buy than other Prii. And you can (if you plug it in at home) do a lot of your miles on pure electric, while still having the long-range and mpg of the Prius drivetrain. Given the rise of EVs, this is future-proofing.

The other Prius models use older NiMH technology for the battery, which in 2017 looks like a dinosaur compared to the rapidly improving, now cheaper and superior Lithium technologies.

Pro: Smooth and nearly silent driving on electric.
Con: its a four seater.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:04 am

dm200 wrote:
William4u wrote:
dm200 wrote:
For most Americans, the #1 risk of death in any one year is in a car crash. And yet one's odds of being seriously injured in a crash and many, many times that.

According to this http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php all accidental deaths (car accidents were only a part) were the #4 cause of death in 2014.
From what I read, I see no support for your claim.

You misread what I wrote. I said for most Americans in any one year of their lives, the #1 risk is a car crash. For only a few of the later years of life is a risk of heart attack higher than risk of accidental death.
Most Americans are under the age of 40. Most deaths are above the age of 40. The highest risks of the younger people are accidents, as opposed to cancer or heart disease. That is what I was referring to. The fact that accidental death is the #4 cause of death OVERALL is irrelevant to what I said. That data skews to mostly older people who are dying from cancer and heart disease. My statement was covering everybody, including babies.
For example, for a 20 year old women in the US, the highest risk of dying is from accidental poisoning. Why? Because women that age hardly die from anything at all. The woman that do die at that age are outliers. Babies that die are outliers. For many of these groups, accidental death is their highest risk of dying THIS YEAR. It is not necessarily the highest risk of their dying in their lifetimes, though.
I was talking about the highest risk of an American dying in the next 12 months. Most Americans have virtually zero risk of dying from heart disease in the next 12 months, for example, but have a very high LIFETIME risk of dying from it.
So, for example, my children's highest risk of dying over the next 12 months is from accidental death, since they are young and healthy with good health insurance.


OK, but the risks of death or serious injury are still very low, especially for drivers who are low risk (no drinkng, speeding, cell phone use while driving, not high miles driven).


I accept that the risk of death in a modern car, seatbelt worn, with airbags is low.

However US road traffic deaths have been on a rising trend. One reason (seriously) is apparently that as unemployment drops, more dangerous drivers driver more (I think that is independent even of the increase in Vehicles Miles Travelled (VMT).

And I don't think the risk of serious injury is small. Here's why:

- my mother has not driven in 50 years, yet, as a passenger, she has been in 2 serious road accidents (causing her harm). In neither case was her driver at fault

- 2 of her best friends died in a road crash. Stoplight for road maintenance, truck behind them slammed into them, broke both their backs

- there's another family auto-related tragedy which led to death, I won't share here

So my mother, who never did more than about 3000 miles a year, lived in a province with a road accident death rate (Ontario) probably safer than most US states (Canadians went big time for seatbelts at least 10-15 years before Americans) has been directly involved in 2 serious road accidents.

I could go on.

I don't know what the incidence is of serious road accidents, but I think over a lifetime, it is quite signifcant. North Americans drive *a lot* over a long time. Say an average of 250k miles between age 18 and age 65?

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:08 am

anonenigma wrote:Thank you for all the great insights. My conclusion is that I should take a closer look at the Prius, which in 2017 is in the first year of its redesign and has the full safety package standard. Maybe its second year, the 2018, would be the car to buy. If I decide that I prefer another Camry, I should read the reviews after the 2018 is released and wait a few months to see if issues arise. Even better would be to wait for the 2019 Camry.


The decision about the Prius is:

- a degree of future proofing. But as JPS Franks suggests, consider the PHEV version (Plug-in Hybrid EV)

- that you really like driving it. Because at current gasoline prices, the price premium will not be met by enough efficiency gains, most likely.

My problem with EV and PHEV is that we are on the threshold of some really rapid change here in terms of performance (range, basically) in volume cars. So I'd rather lease a BMW i3 say, than jump full boots into buying a car that will be "obsolete" in 5 years.

That is an entirely non Boglehead approach.

But my second point is a really important one. Lots of people love their Prii, lots of people cannot stand them. (there' s a Lexus, here, the CT200h, which is probably pretty close to the Prius "C" in America which I think looks very appealing, but Top Gear for example was fairly scathing about the ride etc, not worth the price premium).

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Dude2 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:37 am

Test drive or do a rental for a newer Camry. Compared to a Prius, I find the driving so much more powerful and responsive. Also, gas mileage is amazing for what you get (30 mpg) -- better even than smaller cars. I don't think you can go wrong with a new Camry.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by keystone » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:54 am

While the 2012 Honda Civic was a failure in terms of design, it was not a failure in terms of reliability. I just looked at the Consumer Reports long term reliability rating for the '12 Civic and it is excellent overall and at least better than average in every single category.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by randomguy » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:15 am

Valuethinker wrote:
I accept that the risk of death in a modern car, seatbelt worn, with airbags is low.

However US road traffic deaths have been on a rising trend. One reason (seriously) is apparently that as unemployment drops, more dangerous drivers driver more (I think that is independent even of the increase in Vehicles Miles Travelled (VMT).

And I don't think the risk of serious injury is small. Here's why:

- my mother has not driven in 50 years, yet, as a passenger, she has been in 2 serious road accidents (causing her harm). In neither case was her driver at fault

- 2 of her best friends died in a road crash. Stoplight for road maintenance, truck behind them slammed into them, broke both their backs

- there's another family auto-related tragedy which led to death, I won't share here

So my mother, who never did more than about 3000 miles a year, lived in a province with a road accident death rate (Ontario) probably safer than most US states (Canadians went big time for seatbelts at least 10-15 years before Americans) has been directly involved in 2 serious road accidents.

I could go on.

I don't know what the incidence is of serious road accidents, but I think over a lifetime, it is quite signifcant. North Americans drive *a lot* over a long time. Say an average of 250k miles between age 18 and age 65?


And I don't have a single friend/family who has been seriously hurt in a car crash. Both of our sample sizes are biased (maybe I know great drivers and you know horrible ones but it is far morel likely you just happened to get a bit unlucky with cars and I got lucky). In my world pools, boats, and snow sports are far more dangerous. You need to look at the global stats to get big enough numbers. The fatality rate for driving is ~1.1 per 100 million miles these days. In 1990 it was about 2. When you see the articles about the big increases remember the increases are off a small number.

I definitely consider car safety. I paid an extra 5k to get ESC a decade ago (combo of buying new and higher trim). I am not going to drive a 2k+lb heavier car (largest SUV versus the midsize I need) and pay an extra 20k every 5 years though to maximize my safety.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:34 am

just frank wrote:The other Prius models use older NiMH technology for the battery, which in 2017 looks like a dinosaur compared to the rapidly improving, now cheaper and superior Lithium technologies.

In 2017 NiMH will look like it does now, a proven technology that has a good chance of lasting the life of the car. The lithium technology de jour will look like the beta test it is.

I've been dealing with batteries for decades. In applications were mass and volume were not the highest priority and long life* was it has always made sense to use older chemistries. If it wasn't for the toxic cadmium NiCad would still be the superior technology for some applications, the performance for surge currents and number of charging cycles are still outstanding.

* This include hybrids, but not plugin hybrids. I'd expect at some time hybrids may transition to super capacitors.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:42 am

randomguy wrote:
And I don't have a single friend/family who has been seriously hurt in a car crash. Both of our sample sizes are biased (maybe I know great drivers and you know horrible ones but it is far morel likely you just happened to get a bit unlucky with cars and I got lucky).


Or my bias is urban, north eastern North America. Yours might be different (although the highest states in USA for auto accidents tend to be western & southern).

In my world pools, boats, and snow sports are far more dangerous.


Can think of 2 dead in boating accidents. But that's in a demographic where everyone owned a "cottage by the lake".

You need to look at the global stats to get big enough numbers. The fatality rate for driving is ~1.1 per 100 million miles these days. In 1990 it was about 2. When you see the articles about the big increases remember the increases are off a small number.


My general impression is that it has been falling in all developed countries *but* the US in particular the rate of improvement has flattened out or actually reversed?

I definitely consider car safety. I paid an extra 5k to get ESC a decade ago (combo of buying new and higher trim). I am not going to drive a 2k+lb heavier car (largest SUV versus the midsize I need) and pay an extra 20k every 5 years though to maximize my safety.


Here we are pretty much in agreement.

The SUV safety argument to me was always false: 1. the largest SUVs had a poor safety record (changes to a "3 zone box" from a "2 zone" i.e. a light truck subsequently improved safety; so did better design vis a vis rollover); 2. physics says you will have a longer stopping distance; 3. the "up high and insulated" nature of SUV driving I think leads to lower driver awareness and slows reaction times-- it's a phenomenon I have seen up close.

Also there's an ethical argument, you make yourself some percentage more safe, but everyone else on the road much less safe if you hit them.

This was a classic "positional arms race" in the words of Thomas Frank (Cornell economist). We feel pressured to upsize our vehicle because we are surrounded by huge vehicles that make us feel unsafe. Cue say living in Texas, I imagine. Even in NYC, Manhattan, I was amazed at the number of SUVs driving around. In the most overcrowded least car-and-parking friendly place in America.

One problem as someone told me is "the Feds, the Mayor and the Police don't look glamorous enough driving around in minivans".

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Midpack » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:24 am

Dude2 wrote:Test drive or do a rental for a newer Camry. Compared to a Prius, I find the driving so much more powerful and responsive. Also, gas mileage is amazing for what you get (30 mpg) -- better even than smaller cars. I don't think you can go wrong with a new Camry.
Our 10 year old Camry Hybrid gets over 40 mpg (best ever 43.8 on a tank) in Spring/Summer/Fall and just under 40 mpg in Winter. Looks & drives exactly like any other Camry, not a V6 but more than enough acceleration. FWIW

We have the 10 year old Camry and a 5 year old Prius, so we have lots or real experience. The Camry is a car, the Prius is a driving appliance - reliable, very high mpg, safe and the most boring car we've ever owned...
You only live once...

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Bylo Selhi » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:34 pm

KT785 wrote:As a matter of personal preference, I'd wait until at least the second year of a new generation--can you wait until the 2019 Camry comes out? The first model year of a car after a major redesign will likely have the most issues of all model years of a generation (due to the redesign) which will be corrected in subsequent model years. I speak from experience with two previous cars (Honda and Buick) that I should have waited at least another year to buy.

Ultimately, it's a Camry and will be pretty reliable regardless, but if it were me, I'd wait until the second or third year for the new generation of Camry (2019 or 2020 model years) if you can hold out that long.

While I agree with your caveat to avoid the first year of a new model, I disagree that this doesn't apply to Toyota Camry.

I bought a new 1997 Camry, which was the first year's model in a new generation that includes the OP's 2000 Camry. I'll spare you the details but this car turned out to be an absolute lemon. Worse, Toyota's indifference and arrogance in responding to my issues made even Detroit automakers seem sympathetic by comparison. As a result, despite being a long-time customer whose first car was a 1974 Corolla, Toyota lost me permanently as a customer.

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on Toyota.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by just frank » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:21 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
just frank wrote:The other Prius models use older NiMH technology for the battery, which in 2017 looks like a dinosaur compared to the rapidly improving, now cheaper and superior Lithium technologies.

In 2017 NiMH will look like it does now, a proven technology that has a good chance of lasting the life of the car. The lithium technology de jour will look like the beta test it is.

I've been dealing with batteries for decades. In applications were mass and volume were not the highest priority and long life* was it has always made sense to use older chemistries. If it wasn't for the toxic cadmium NiCad would still be the superior technology for some applications, the performance for surge currents and number of charging cycles are still outstanding.

* This include hybrids, but not plugin hybrids. I'd expect at some time hybrids may transition to super capacitors.


With 2 million cars on the road globally under Lithium Battery power, with the oldest coming up on 6 years old, and their battery failure rate running well below the '4% failure rate' quoted above for Prius NiMH batteries, I think calling them 'beta' is a bit of an overstatement.

For a lot of applications like EVs, weight is an issue....and that is where the NiMH suffer.

The great thing about Lithium tech is that there a zillion flavors now, each adaptable to different needs. For good cycle life, you can go for LiFePO4 chemistry. To avoid flammability, go with the EV prismatic cells. Want high volume energy density and low mass density, go with the Panasonic cells in the Tesla. Wafer thin smart phone...gerrymander a Li-polymer cell in there.

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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by Epsilon Delta » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:03 pm

just frank wrote:
Epsilon Delta wrote:
just frank wrote:The other Prius models use older NiMH technology for the battery, which in 2017 looks like a dinosaur compared to the rapidly improving, now cheaper and superior Lithium technologies.

In 2017 NiMH will look like it does now, a proven technology that has a good chance of lasting the life of the car. The lithium technology de jour will look like the beta test it is.

I've been dealing with batteries for decades. In applications were mass and volume were not the highest priority and long life* was it has always made sense to use older chemistries. If it wasn't for the toxic cadmium NiCad would still be the superior technology for some applications, the performance for surge currents and number of charging cycles are still outstanding.

* This include hybrids, but not plugin hybrids. I'd expect at some time hybrids may transition to super capacitors.


With 2 million cars on the road globally under Lithium Battery power, with the oldest coming up on 6 years old, and their battery failure rate running well below the '4% failure rate' quoted above for Prius NiMH batteries, I think calling them 'beta' is a bit of an overstatement.

For a lot of applications like EVs, weight is an issue....and that is where the NiMH suffer.

The great thing about Lithium tech is that there a zillion flavors now, each adaptable to different needs. For good cycle life, you can go for LiFePO4 chemistry. To avoid flammability, go with the EV prismatic cells. Want high volume energy density and low mass density, go with the Panasonic cells in the Tesla. Wafer thin smart phone...gerrymander a Li-polymer cell in there.

And none of these is what you want for a hybrid. What a hybrid needs is high power density and high number of cycles. Weight is far less important.

A Tesla S runs a 300kW motor from a 60kWhr battery. At full load the motor could would discharge the battery in 12 minutes. A Prius runs a 60kW motor from a 1.4kWhr battery. The full load could discharge the battery in 1.4 minutes.

A Tesla battery has a few hundred charge cycles a year. A Prius battery does that in a week, perhaps in a day.

On the other hand the Prius battery weights less than 100lb. Doubling the weight would be like adding a 10 year old in the back seat. The Tesla battery is over 800 lb, doubling that is putting a defensive line in the back seat.

These differences are order of magnitude, a hybrid is not an EV.

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victorb
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Re: Camry Redesign

Post by victorb » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:42 pm

Pretty hard to go wrong with Toyota. The RAV4 has a hybrid model now and Camry is always a winner. You should take your time and find out what fits your body, driving style and usage the best. I always liked sedans and then we bought a RAV4. When it was time to replace the RAV4, Toyota was slow in coming out with a redesigned model and we picked a new Hyundai Santa fe and it has been a great vehicle. I like sitting up a little higher and like the flexibility of the space for hauling things. You shouldn't be concerned about the battery life, Toyota has had a good reputation for longevity. Hyundai does one better and warranties the batteries on hybrids for life of the original owner. There warranty can't be beat with 5 yrs. 60K miles on everything and 10 yrs 100k miles on drivetrain. I used to be a loyal Toyota owner with Camry, RAV4 and now have gone the Hyundai route and exceptionally happy.

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