Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
madbrain
Posts: 4533
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:10 pm

We bought a Bolt Premier 3 weeks ago replace our 2011 that was in an accident. It's a great car. Fully loaded in red.

We also have a 2015 Gen 1 Volt. Never thought we would own a GM car, let alone 2, but here we are.

The Volt will be our car of choice for road trips. I expect road trips will be nearly the only time we ever have to use any gas in the Volt, as the Volt fits my daily commute within the EV range perfectly. And we don't make that many to begin with. Usually just 1-2 trips to LA or San Diego from the bay area per year. So we are likely looking at < 100 gallons of gas per year. Gen1 Volt takes premium gas which is currently at $3/gallon here - so about $300/year of gas only.

CCS DC fast charger infrastructure is not yet there for the Bolt - none around I-5 for example in California. Hopefully that will change so we can take it on road trips too.

Tesla has Superchargers on I-5 but there is often a line. And of course you just cannot buy a model 3 today.

madbrain
Posts: 4533
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:12 pm

just frank wrote:Be advised, there will likely be no Fed incentive on these cars in two years.


Yes, that was one of the reasons for us to buy a Bolt now and not wait for the Tesla 3.

We repaired the 2011 Prius inexpensively and got a good sales price out of it.
It cost us a net of $26k to upgrade to the fully loaded red Bolt after accounting for all taxes and incentives.

inbox788
Posts: 4191
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by inbox788 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:15 pm

just frank wrote:
inbox788 wrote:Unknown delivery date for new leafs, but probably a couple of years away. The thing to do is get the Bolt now and drive it for 2-3 years while waiting for the other options to decide if switching is worth it. A lease would give flexibility.


My description is for the 2018 MY Leafs, that will be available in the fall. IOW, I expect them to also beat the Model 3.

Nissan-Renault started shipping the similar Zoe in Europe with a 40 kWh battery a couple months ago, shortly after the announcement.

They are trying to minimize the amount of sales losses they incur between announcement and shipping. Nissan has been drawing down inventory in the US like nothing they have done before with the LEAF.


That's sooner than I had expected. Looks like they have secured a decent amount of battery production, so that shouldn't limit them at least initially. But if all these cars gain popularity, batteries will be in short supply

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmi ... ys-nissan/

User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1307
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by just frank » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:42 pm

I personally don't worry about battery production....lots of bad info out there.

For instance, the Nissan battery plant in TN uses electrode materials shipped in from Japan...in TN they are basically doing some rolling, baking, assembling cells and modules. They hard/tricky chemistry is all over in Asia.

Also, from what I hear LG Chem can scale their production facility rapidly to meet new demand.

inbox788
Posts: 4191
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by inbox788 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:46 pm

just frank wrote:I personally don't worry about battery production....lots of bad info out there.

For instance, the Nissan battery plant in TN uses electrode materials shipped in from Japan...in TN they are basically doing some rolling, baking, assembling cells and modules. They hard/tricky chemistry is all over in Asia.

Also, from what I hear LG Chem can scale their production facility rapidly to meet new demand.

I don't know anything, but I've read some articles that battery production and particularly lithium mining are limiting factors in widespread electric car adoption. Here's an old article (sky is falling type) that tries to make the argument. Don't know if they've identified more sources since then, but at one time Bolivia was a majority of world lithium reserves and WW3 would be fought over that (makes a good storyline for a movie). Seems like short term (next couple/few years) we don't have much to worry about.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -Battery-M

User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:24 pm

inbox788 wrote:
just frank wrote:I personally don't worry about battery production....lots of bad info out there.

For instance, the Nissan battery plant in TN uses electrode materials shipped in from Japan...in TN they are basically doing some rolling, baking, assembling cells and modules. They hard/tricky chemistry is all over in Asia.

Also, from what I hear LG Chem can scale their production facility rapidly to meet new demand.

I don't know anything, but I've read some articles that battery production and particularly lithium mining are limiting factors in widespread electric car adoption. Here's an old article (sky is falling type) that tries to make the argument. Don't know if they've identified more sources since then, but at one time Bolivia was a majority of world lithium reserves and WW3 would be fought over that (makes a good storyline for a movie). Seems like short term (next couple/few years) we don't have much to worry about.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -Battery-M


Think of battery production like index investing. Before Tesla's gigafactory, it is like the Dow Jones was the only index around. Now Tesla's Gigafactory is the S&P 500 coming to town. Costs come down as a bigger index is available (and is used). When the other manufacturers demand more batteries and the battery makers expand their operations, we will have a Total Market index to base new funds off of! :)

madbrain
Posts: 4533
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:44 pm

letsgobobby wrote:I'm going with Tesla. I am on the wait list for the 3, hopefully high enough up that I will get the federal tax credit.

My problem with the Bolt is my perception of Chevy's reliability (or lack thereof). The Volt hasn't had a great track record.


Well, Tesla certainly doesn't have a great track record either when it comes to reliability.

http://www.consumerreports.org/car-reli ... -stack-up/

Chevrolet is # 15 and Tesla is # 25, near the bottom of the rankings.

If reliability is your main concern, then it would be a good reason to avoid Tesla. I haven't seen the reliability data on the Volt specifically but I doubt it is worse than Tesla.

I can give one anecdote - the first Volt I bought was stalling after it ran out of battery, and was unsafe to drive. It was towed back to the dealership the very same day it was purchased. That's the last I ever saw of it. After 10 days and them and GM not being able to fix it, they took it back as a lemon. I bought another identical brand new one with the same options and color, and it has been flawless for the last 20 months. Our Bolt has been great too, but it's only been 3 weeks.

madbrain
Posts: 4533
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:46 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:Think of battery production like index investing. Before Tesla's gigafactory, it is like the Dow Jones was the only index around. Now Tesla's Gigafactory is the S&P 500 coming to town. Costs come down as a bigger index is available (and is used). When the other manufacturers demand more batteries and the battery makers expand their operations, we will have a Total Market index to base new funds off of! :)


Using a financial analogy and applying it to cars - only on Bogleheads ! It's usually the reverse, car analogies about something else.
I don't think your analogy applies here - the problem with batteries are not high-cost intermediaries, which is what index cost funds, but evolving technology and manufacturing optimizations.

madbrain
Posts: 4533
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 pm

randomguy wrote:200-270 mile range is more like 3-4 hours unless you are driving 80+mph.


If you are driving 80mph, you won't be getting 200-270 mile range. e=mc2 . Those EV/PHEV cars are pretty heavy with their battery packs to begin with. Increasing speed will kill the range faster than anything else. The EPA ranges are an average of city and highway driving, and that average is is lower than 65mph to begin with.

Charging locations can make you stop before that. Ranges do depend a lot on speed (i.e. range drops the faster you go. At 55mph the Tesla 85 can go over 300 mph. Up the speed to 75mph and the range drops to ~240) and conditions (i.e. cold is the big one).

How much of a pain it is going to depend a lot on your situation. If you need to go say 300 miles, it is fricken painful to have to stop so close. Have to go like 500miles and you are probably stopping anyway. Then it is more a question of how inconvenient the timing of that stop is.


If you are going 300 miles, you could reduce your speed to 50-55 and you might make it without any stop. But it's unwise and unsafe to drive slower than traffic. You might take the scenic route, but then there isn't going to be any Supercharger on it ;)

Yesterday afternoon, I drove 66 miles in the Bolt and used only 13 kWh of energy. That's over 5 miles/kWh. There was a lot of stop and go traffic. I didn't have the HOV sticker yet, so I wasn't using the carpool lane. Weather was nice so I didn't use any climate control.
I have never gotten anywhere near that kind of average on my other plug-in cars before (2012 Leaf, 2015 Volt). My lifetime average was 3.5 miles/kWh on the Leaf. It is a little lower for the Gen1 Volt - 3.2 miles/kWh. I usually drive at off-peak hours an not in traffic, though. And night driving means I often using climate control. I also live in the hills with a 15% grade which is a mileage killer. Every time I go home, the last half-mile up eats 0.5 to -0.6 kWh.

The Bolt is 200 lbs lighter than the Gen1 Volt. But it has a nearly 1000 lbs battery pack !

Iorek
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:38 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Iorek » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:03 pm

I think Tesla is under such pressure to produce cars that quality will continue to suffer. I'd get a Bolt now while you can get the tax credit (or don't and leave one for me ;) )

It's amazing to me to see how quickly the level 3 charging network os being built out. 18 months ago there wasn't a single CCS within a 100 mule radius of me and now there's at least a dozen. I think new stations being installed are usually both chademo and ccs and I think that network will be better than tesla's fairly soon, if not already in some places, esp when you consider all the money VW will be spending.

It is true that for long road trips an EV can be less convenient, but between quick charging and occasionally just renting a car it's been fine for us. The sometimes overlooked advantage however is being able to refuel your car in the garage as it sits overnight.

Edited to add-- Went and looked at plugshare and there are probably 30+ CCS level 3 chargers in a 50 miles radius of where I live now (none of which existed 2 years ago) and 2 Tesla superchargers. Now I think Tesla owners can get an adapter to charge at chademo/ccs but I wouldn't buy a Tesla because of the charging network.
Last edited by Iorek on Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

randomguy
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by randomguy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:54 pm

madbrain wrote:
randomguy wrote:200-270 mile range is more like 3-4 hours unless you are driving 80+mph.


If you are driving 80mph, you won't be getting 200-270 mile range. e=mc2 . Those EV/PHEV cars are pretty heavy with their battery packs to begin with. Increasing speed will kill the range faster than anything else. The EPA ranges are an average of city and highway driving, and that average is is lower than 65mph to begin with.



Right idea, wrong equation. You are not vaporizing your car. A better equation ( still simplistic as we are only looking at aero drag)
drag = (coefficient of Drag* (density of air)*v^2* area)/2

Tesla website has some numbers. The Model S with the 75 battery, RWD gets
60 mph 292 miles (i.e. almost 5 hours)
70 mph 241 miles (i.e. 4hours)

As I said you need to be going well north of 80mph to drop the range under 2 hours. Or be driving when it is super cold.:)

letsgobobby
Posts: 10692
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by letsgobobby » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:40 am

I knew Tesla reliability hadn't been great, but I hadn't realized it was quite so bad. Thanks for that info. If it doesn't improve, no way I will buy a 3.

randomguy
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by randomguy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:56 am

letsgobobby wrote:I knew Tesla reliability hadn't been great, but I hadn't realized it was quite so bad. Thanks for that info. If it doesn't improve, no way I will buy a 3.


The model S reliability is creeping towards average. The Model X has been a disaster. The 3 probably will not have anywhere the amount of stupid features the X had but it is a still going to be a new model. Given past history, waiting for the year 2 model might avoid a lot of problems.

As always you need to look into what the various reliability stats measure. On at least one of them, having problems pairing your phone rates the same as having a blown transmission. One is annoying. The other leaves you at the side of the road.

letsgobobby
Posts: 10692
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by letsgobobby » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:43 pm

randomguy wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:I knew Tesla reliability hadn't been great, but I hadn't realized it was quite so bad. Thanks for that info. If it doesn't improve, no way I will buy a 3.


The model S reliability is creeping towards average. The Model X has been a disaster. The 3 probably will not have anywhere the amount of stupid features the X had but it is a still going to be a new model. Given past history, waiting for the year 2 model might avoid a lot of problems.

As always you need to look into what the various reliability stats measure. On at least one of them, having problems pairing your phone rates the same as having a blown transmission. One is annoying. The other leaves you at the side of the road.

my problem is I just want an appliance. I am used to Toyota and Honda reliability and scared to own anything else. They're not perfect but the odds are in my favor.

Frankly I can't wait til all EVs talk to each other and I can basically hop in an EV and more or less let it automatically drive me, like a train, to my destination. It doesn't have to fast, or handle well, or be swaddled in leather. I just want it to take me from A to B as quietly, efficiently, cheaply, and sustainably as possible.

My commute is too far for a Leaf, unfortunately. I almost bought my wife a Leaf, so I could take her Prius, but the range was still too limiting, even for in-city driving. I may buy another Prius if the EVs don't look promising. I can wait about 2 more years before I'll need a new car; my current vehicle will have about 200,000 miles by that time.

sandramjet
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by sandramjet » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:15 pm

letsgobobby wrote:my problem is I just want an appliance. I am used to Toyota and Honda reliability and scared to own anything else. They're not perfect but the odds are in my favor.


Ok, if you want just an "appliance" then you need to wait a while...a long while! Remember, you are comparing the reliability of ICE based vehicles, which have been around for literally more than a century to current EV's and technology that is WAY less mature. Stick with hybrids for way more than 2 or 3 more years, then start looking at pure EV's. I'm not saying it will take a century, but it will take more than a couple more years before they are "appliances".

Iorek
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:38 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Iorek » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:22 pm

sandramjet wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:my problem is I just want an appliance. I am used to Toyota and Honda reliability and scared to own anything else. They're not perfect but the odds are in my favor.


Ok, if you want just an "appliance" then you need to wait a while...a long while! Remember, you are comparing the reliability of ICE based vehicles, which have been around for literally more than a century to current EV's and technology that is WAY less mature. Stick with hybrids for way more than 2 or 3 more years, then start looking at pure EV's. I'm not saying it will take a century, but it will take more than a couple more years before they are "appliances".


I disagree. EVs are actually much simpler cars and in general are now, or will soon be, more reliable than either ICE or PHEVs. Tesla does try to load up their software and they are a startup under pressure to generate revenue so I think those factors contribute more to their reliability than the fact that they are EVs.

nura
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:24 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by nura » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:44 pm

squirm wrote:Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips. Two year time frame.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Superchargers work, are relatively fast, are rarely iced, and in many locations unlike public chargers. That alone i think is a huge advantage, without even going into the car specifics.

Another approach to gasoline-free transportation:
buy an economy hatchback for $15-20k and invest balance in high yield balanced or income fund, dividends should pay for fill-ups. My fill-ups for Honda Fit are covered by Wellesley and Wellington dividends, capital appreciation pays for routine maintenance, there by I have fully funded personal transportation annuity for about 30 grand.

randomguy
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by randomguy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Iorek wrote:
sandramjet wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:my problem is I just want an appliance. I am used to Toyota and Honda reliability and scared to own anything else. They're not perfect but the odds are in my favor.


Ok, if you want just an "appliance" then you need to wait a while...a long while! Remember, you are comparing the reliability of ICE based vehicles, which have been around for literally more than a century to current EV's and technology that is WAY less mature. Stick with hybrids for way more than 2 or 3 more years, then start looking at pure EV's. I'm not saying it will take a century, but it will take more than a couple more years before they are "appliances".


I disagree. EVs are actually much simpler cars and in general are now, or will soon be, more reliable than either ICE or PHEVs. Tesla does try to load up their software and they are a startup under pressure to generate revenue so I think those factors contribute more to their reliability than the fact that they are EVs.


Tesla power trains have not been remotely as reliable as a gas engine. See http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... a-suggests among others.

ICE might be more complex but the car companies have spend the last 100 years learning how to deal with that complexity. That is why a company like Toyota can put out a prius (i.e. the complexity of an ICE and EV AND the interaction between the two) and still have one of the most reliable cars on the road. Not to mention reliability is more than the drive train. Knowing how to screw a car together in mass quantities is hard. See chrysler:)

Maybe some day theory will catch up with reality. But I have a feeling it will not happen til Honda/Toyota start making EVs. Most of the other companies just don't care much about reliability. And Musk sure doesn't strike me as a guy who is going to favor reliability over some wiz bang feature;)

User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:58 pm

First and foremost, I agree that EV reliability (especially Teslas) is not YET where my Toyota 4Runner was, though it has the potential to get there as it evolves and the manufacturers gain more experience in it.

That said, I do want to mention that the greener reports article about the Tesla drivetrains is a bit of a misnomer on "replacement drivetrains". Yes, it is absolutely correct that the drive units have been replaced on a large number of cars. My own S had two replacements (so 3rd unit) in 18 months. But, in every case of my car and in MANY of the cases across the fleet, it was because of noise from bolts/shims being suffering from electrolysis and/or insufficient grease. These are things that in a traditional car, the likely answer would have been to replace the bolt (and hope it is easy to get to). However, Tesla didn't go down that path. Instead, (1) they replaced many units so they could break open the old one and learn what exactly the problem was and how to address it in the long term (change materials, use more grease, etc.) rather than simply change the faulty part with the same version, and (2) the units are a bit encased. While it is totally possible to open it up and service it, it was cheaper/faster for Tesla to replace them and then open and replace the parts in a bunch of them at once -- batching the repair process.

Now, there have been some actual failures in the units. But once you discount the "better customer experience" curve where a replacement takes under an hour and a repair takes several hours, the reliability numbers aren't horrendous.

But again, it would be an absolute lie to say the Tesla Model S has been more reliable than my Toyota 4Runner. That said, it has never left me stranded and Tesla provides a better experience around handling those issues than Toyota did for me (though Lexus does a better job for my mother, Tesla is still a better experience, but the gap isn't large - mainly b/c of loaners and valets).

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:08 pm

Kevin M wrote:[snip...]

Speaking of technology, not much mention has been made of autopilot. Does Bolt have this? Autopilot in the Tesla is a huge plus for me, and I would not want to go back to a car without it. I assume that the new version of Autopilot will be at least on par with the older version (which I have) by the time the Model 3 comes out, and possibly well advanced beyond it.


Autopilot??? They're still working on GPS.
Indicators are that a promised built-in map-based navigation system for the Bolt EV may not yet be available and it’s not clear if it will be in time for first deliveries.

With release of Chevrolet’s Bolt EV fleet order guide, conspicuously absent in its 26 pages is any mention of this feature.

Early ride-along videos in Bolts also have seen folks reporting that the vehicle has no nav system, and one must instead rely on another workaround, such as Apple CarPlay or Android Auto, and the nav system imported by the paired smartphone.

A map-based nav system is important not just for general traveling, but to find destination chargers, and an EV-focused version was promised at the Bolt’s January reveal at CES by GM CEO Mary Barra.

“Another way we are looking to save everyone’s time is by offering navigation with EV-specific routing. With EV Navigation mapping, Bolt EV gives options — like routes that maximize your range or provide access to charging stations,” said Barra. “Bolt EV also offers an advanced range predictor, which accurately estimates driving range based on topography… temperature… and driving habits.”


That's probably a cheap Tesla fanboy shot at Bolt. :D

User avatar
matjen
Posts: 1703
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:30 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by matjen » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:03 pm

Well, FWIW: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gm-au ... SKBN15W283

General Motors Co plans to deploy thousands of self-driving electric cars in test fleets in partnership with ride-sharing affiliate Lyft Inc, beginning in 2018, two sources familiar with the automaker’s plans said this week.

It is expected to be the largest such test of fully autonomous vehicles by any major automaker before 2020, when several companies have said they plan to begin building and deploying such vehicles in higher volumes. Alphabet Inc's Waymo subsidiary, in comparison, is currently testing about 60 self-driving prototypes in four states.

Most of the specially equipped versions of the Chevrolet Bolt electric vehicle will be used by San Francisco-based Lyft, which will test them in its ride-sharing fleet in several states, one of the sources said. GM has no immediate plans to sell the Bolt AV to individual customers, according to the source.
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

cannondale
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by cannondale » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:25 am

I have a Model X with hardware 2.0.

It's spent more time in the shop than I've spent driving. It's in the shop now. Seems like I should have sprung the $ for 2 Jaguars. The good news is that the loaners they gave me, a S 85 and a SP85D. The P85D is fast and is fun to drive, although the autopilot is not recommended on side streets.

I should do a write up of my experience w/ the X.

researcher
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by researcher » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:12 am

cannondale wrote:I have a Model X with hardware 2.0.

It's spent more time in the shop than I've spent driving. It's in the shop now. Seems like I should have sprung the $ for 2 Jaguars. The good news is that the loaners they gave me, a S 85 and a SP85D. The P85D is fast and is fun to drive, although the autopilot is not recommended on side streets.

I should do a write up of my experience w/ the X.

Yes, please write up your experience. It would be great to hear an honest appraisal of your Tesla from someone that is not drinking the Musk Kool-Aid.

Virtually every Telsa owner here is a complete fanboy incapable of honestly evaluating the ownership experience. There was a thread awhile back where one owner claimed that all of the problems/repairs were actually a "great, fun experience"

User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:31 am

researcher wrote:
cannondale wrote:I have a Model X with hardware 2.0.

It's spent more time in the shop than I've spent driving. It's in the shop now. Seems like I should have sprung the $ for 2 Jaguars. The good news is that the loaners they gave me, a S 85 and a SP85D. The P85D is fast and is fun to drive, although the autopilot is not recommended on side streets.

I should do a write up of my experience w/ the X.

Yes, please write up your experience. It would be great to hear an honest appraisal of your Tesla from someone that is not drinking the Musk Kool-Aid.

Virtually every Telsa owner here is a complete fanboy incapable of honestly evaluating the ownership experience. There was a thread awhile back where one owner claimed that all of the problems/repairs were actually a "great, fun experience"


Tesla Model X 2 Months Review

I feel for cannondale, I am very fortunate my S hasn't had the problems his/her X has had.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:32 am

researcher wrote:
cannondale wrote:I have a Model X with hardware 2.0.

It's spent more time in the shop than I've spent driving. It's in the shop now. Seems like I should have sprung the $ for 2 Jaguars. The good news is that the loaners they gave me, a S 85 and a SP85D. The P85D is fast and is fun to drive, although the autopilot is not recommended on side streets.

I should do a write up of my experience w/ the X.

Yes, please write up your experience. It would be great to hear an honest appraisal of your Tesla from someone that is not drinking the Musk Kool-Aid.

Virtually every Telsa owner here is a complete fanboy incapable of honestly evaluating the ownership experience. There was a thread awhile back where one owner claimed that all of the problems/repairs were actually a "great, fun experience"

I admit to being a fanboy, but that doesn't make me "incapable of honestly evaluating the ownership experience." I have had my fair share of fit and finish issues (but nothing related to drivetrain or "important"), which are not completely fixed yet, but I was an early adopter, VIN 0002xx. I knew going in that many issues would be resolved "on my back," and I'm in a position to deal with it (e.g., I am retired, the Service Center is nearby, etc.). Why would everyone who is fine with Tesla be drinking the Kool-Aid, but anyone who is negative be honest? You're just as biased as I am, just in the opposite direction.

User avatar
Bammerman
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:58 pm

"50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips"

Post by Bammerman » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:02 am

Seconding other posts here, I too suggest that the OP's neighbor consider the Chevy Volt (vice Bolt). I have a 2013 Volt and could almost do a 50 mile commute in it just on battery power without charging (I get about 43 miles from my Volt's battery in the summertime, about 33 miles in the winter). (Of course I could easily do that kind of commute if I could plug in somewhere during the work day.) And I can go on long road trips anywhere without any range anxiety or planning/searching for charge points, getting about 41 mpg (but premium gas). So, why wait 2 years, OP? Buy a used gen.1 Volt now, they're pretty cheap!

researcher
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by researcher » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:25 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:I admit to being a fanboy, but that doesn't make me "incapable of honestly evaluating the ownership experience." I have had my fair share of fit and finish issues (but nothing related to drivetrain or "important"), which are not completely fixed yet. I knew going in that many issues would be resolved "on my back," and I'm in a position to deal with it. Why would everyone who is fine with Tesla be drinking the Kool-Aid, but anyone who is negative be honest? You're just as biased as I am, just in the opposite direction.

That's why I said "virtually" every Tesla owner, which means nearly/almost. Obviously, you are one of the exceptions. I absolutely do not think everyone who is fine with Tesla is drinking the Kool-Aid. You are a perfect example.

What I'm talking about are the owners who dismiss repeated/serious issues as "little annoyances" or actually spin them as "positive experiences." Here is an example from an old thread...

Kevin M owned a Telsa for only a few months. Within the first 11,000 miles, he experienced a "rapid, hammering noise," which required 2 unscheduled service visits to fix (each scheduled a month in advance). He was without the car for nearly 2 weeks (at one point given a used Prius rental), and required major repairs to fix the issue (both front & rear axles, rear drive unit).

He described his car as being "essentially flawless." Waiting so long for an appointment as "no big deal." The hassle of having to drive a bunch of different loaners (including a Prius) as "pretty cool." And the major repairs needed to correct the problem as "little/minor annoyances."

cherijoh
Posts: 4067
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by cherijoh » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:45 am

clutchied wrote:
squirm wrote:Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips. Two year time frame.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Superchargers work, are relatively fast, are rarely iced, and in many locations unlike public chargers. That alone i think is a huge advantage, without even going into the car specifics.


There is no reasonable method to take a road trip with any electric only car. The Tesla can make the cut but it does provide decent flow interruption which is either good or bad, you decide. 45 minute fueling trips every 2 - 2.5 hours.

The Bolt would not be viable unless you like standing around for 6 hours...


One thing I have been curious about is the public charging stations. How many ports are there typically at a given station and is this something that could be expanded quickly if there is a surge in demand? I can easily see mismatches between the number of EV cars and the availability of public charging stations on a given route as the number of cars expands.

I can easily envision a new type of road rage when you discover that there is a line for the charging station on a holiday weekend. A few years ago we had gas lines when a hurricane disrupted the gas supply in the southeast and I recall there were numerous incidents of road rage amongst those waiting in line.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:14 pm

researcher wrote:That's why I said "virtually" every Tesla owner, which means nearly/almost. Obviously, you are one of the exceptions. I absolutely do not think everyone who is fine with Tesla is drinking the Kool-Aid. You are a perfect example.

You are right. I was rushing out the door, and missed the "virtually."

I was rushing to visit my son, but took adantage of the 1.5 hour round trip to try to evaluate my car as a new experience, a test drive of sorts.

Pro: smooth and quiet. Acceleration to spare. Autopilot (HW1) drove capably for 60% of trip. Very comfortable car to cruise along in.
Con: windnoise noticeable, possibly because not hidden by engine noise. Perceived louder than wife's Range Rover. Interior is minimalist, which could be a pro depending on taste. Blind spot detection is lacking; dangerous for drivers who don't know how o use side mirrors. Silly expensive. Damn this is a wide car to fit in NJ parking lot spaces!

User avatar
Kevin M
Posts: 8882
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:50 pm

researcher wrote:That's why I said "virtually" every Tesla owner, which means nearly/almost.
<snip>
What I'm talking about are the owners who dismiss repeated/serious issues as "little annoyances" or actually spin them as "positive experiences."

And your point is? That most Tesla owners are fanatically happy with their Teslas? Maybe that's saying something about the Tesla driving experience?
researcher wrote:Here is an example from an old thread...

Kevin M owned a Telsa for only a few months.

Really? You're going to try and use this as an example of a repeated/serious issue? OK, here we go.
Within the first 11,000 miles, he experienced a "rapid, hammering noise," which required 2 unscheduled service visits to fix (each scheduled a month in advance).

The term "hammering" was an overstatement on my part. It was more like the pinging sound you hear sometimes in an ICE vehicle if not using high enough octane gas. Not loud at all. So for the benefit of those using info in this thread to decide between a Tesla and a Chevy Bolt, here's a more honest description of the problem symptom, which I think I covered in that thread.

  • Noise lasted only 1-2 seconds when it occurred.
  • Only occurred under full acceleration (> 200 kW).
  • Only occurred within the first 10 minutes or so of driving after the car sat overnight.

This was so far from being a serious problem that we took a 1,000 mile road trip before it had been corrected.

It's true that at that time the lead time for non-urgent repairs was about a month. That has come down significantly since then. I called to schedule my annual service about a month in advance late last year, and they offered me an appointment the same week (but I had another 1,000 mile road trip scheduled, so I scheduled it a month out).

He was without the car for nearly 2 weeks (at one point given a used Prius rental), and required major repairs to fix the issue (both front & rear axles, rear drive unit).

Kind of true. It did take two service center visits to fix the problem, and the car was at the service center for about five days each time. Most of that time the car was just waiting in the queue, with the actual repair taking 1-2 days. As mentioned above, the service center was backed up at the time (growing pains I guess), but has increased staffing so now those long wait times seem to be gone.

First time they replaced the rear drive unit, but that didn't get rid of the noise. Don't know why they replaced it, but since Tesla is continuously improving these components, I was happy to have a new one. At any rate, replacing this drive unit was not required to fix the problem that I actually noticed.

So score one in the minus column for Tesla service for not fixing the problem on the first visit. Was I happy about that? Of course not--well, except for getting a new rear drive unit. But who do you know who's taken in their ICE vehicle for a minor, intermittent noise that's hard even to duplicate, had zero effect on drivability, and had the service department replace their engine to try and fix it? Not likely. As others have said, Tesla seems to be quick on the trigger to replace drive units, because it's easy for them, and they can use the replaced drive unit to help with continuous quality improvements.

He described his car as being "essentially flawless."

The car performed flawlessly in every way except for this very occasional, slight noise. Still, I figured something wasn't quite right, so might as well get it fixed. That's not to say other Tesla owners haven't had actual serious problems that affected their actual usage and enjoyment of the vehicle, but personally I haven't had any such issues yet. Maybe if I hadn't taken it in to get the noise fixed, whatever was causing the noise would have eventually resulted in an actual breakdown, but apparently it was minor enough at the time that Tesla advised me not to worry about taking a 1,000 mile road trip before getting it fixed, which is what I did.

Waiting so long for an appointment as "no big deal."

Why is this so hard to understand? Why should it be a big deal to wait to get something fixed that is having zero impact on drivability and all functionality of the car?

The hassle of having to drive a bunch of different loaners (including a Prius) as "pretty cool."

Well I did have a Prius for one day, but you didn't mention the BMW or the Model S 85 that I had the rest of the time. Having never driven a BMW, it was interesting to drive one, but for sure, the Tesla is much nicer. The MS 85 was interesting because it was RWD, so it was fun to compare to my AWD MS 70D.

And the major repairs needed to correct the problem as "little/minor annoyances."

Again, why is this so hard to understand? What difference does it make if it was a major repair or a minor repair in terms how annoying it is? Why is it so hard to understand that some people aren't bothered much by things that might really upset someone else?

Anyway, hopefully I've cleared up any potential misunderstanding about what actually happened, and those considering buying a Tesla (vs. a Bolt, or whatever), can factor my experience into their decision. The bottom line for me is that I'm still extremely happy with my Model S, and at this point wouldn't be interested in owning anything besides a Tesla as my main vehicle.

Kevin
||.......|| Suggested format for Asking Portfolio Questions (edit original post)

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:08 pm

The bottom line for me is that I'm still extremely happy with my Model S, and at this point wouldn't be interested in owning anything besides a Tesla as my main vehicle.
As it currently stands, I am happy to own my Tesla X, but that's not to say that in 5 years something else might not be better.

My almost year-old X has been in the shop 4 times:
Driver's seat replaced twice. Once for an alignment issue, once because the ventilated seat's fan was noisy.
Seat belt retractor was replaced in a second row seat because it had to be coaxed into retracting.
Third row seats were replaced under a recall. From what I understand, I think it was unnecessary.
Front door latches replaced.
Paint anomaly fixed
GPS map file was corrupted; map could show location and traffic, but not set a destination.
Every time the car has been in, I've complained about wind noise and other rattles, creaks, etc. They've replaced a bunch of seals, and it is a lot better.

In my experience with Audi, Range Rover, and Mercedes, problems like the above (except for the seat belt retractor and paint anomaly) would probably have been deemed either "within spec" or "could not replicate." Tesla has bent over backwards to try to diagnose intermittent problems and make me happy.

I always tell them that my issues aren't urgent, and that I'll wait for a Tesla loaner.

wrongfunds
Posts: 918
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:59 pm

Now that Tesla 3 is becoming more of reality, I have seriously started looking at the availability of superchargers along the route that I often take. I am quite disheartened to see that on east coast, there are very few super chargers. Initially I was happy to see that there is a supercharger in Edison, NJ but then looking at the location, it is miles away from Garden State Parkway. If M3 can be fitted with 300 mile range and if there will be a supercharger in the "desi" parking lot at Edison/Iselin township, it will an easier sell to jump on the Tesla bandwagon. I mean if my family is going to take a break in Edison, there is no way we are going to waste that stop eating some mall food while Tesla recharges!

But seriously, number of supercharger stations along MA->Northern VA are very sparse. I make these trips at least 4 times during the year and another 4 more to Edison NJ area. So far I do not think I can make those trips in a Tesla.

How many east coast BH are Tesla owners? How do you handle these type of trips?

User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:17 pm

wrongfunds wrote: How many east coast BH are Tesla owners? How do you handle these type of trips?
I've done DC through NC to Atlanta (I-85) and also down to Miami (I-95) and on to Key West. Did a Disney World trip last year. I've done these trips (in particular Atlanta and Miami) a dozen times. I use supercharge.info and evtripplanner.com to help organize/plan the trips early on, but after the first two times, I just key it into the built-in Nav and go.

Are there any particular city-pairs you would be particularly interested in (maybe DC -> Edison, NJ)?

At BogleHeads 2014, there were two Tesla Model Ses there, but I don't know from where they came.

wrongfunds
Posts: 918
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by wrongfunds » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Acton, MA via Edison NJ to Herndon VA At least 4 trips per year.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:53 pm

I live in Northern NJ. There are 3 Teslas (soon to be 4) on our block of 8 houses. I frequently drive to Saratoga Springs, NY and New Haven, CT. I have no problem charging. I know people who drive from Boston to Florida regularly.

User avatar
Kevin M
Posts: 8882
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:15 pm

wrongfunds wrote:Acton, MA via Edison NJ to Herndon VA At least 4 trips per year.
Supercharger density looks quite high along this route. EVTrip Planner shows charging stops at Milford South, Cranbury, and Newark. In an MS 70D with 19" tires, total driving time 7:39, total charging time 1:24, but of course this will vary with speed, temperature, and payload. You drive by quite a few SCs that you don't need to stop at, so looks like pretty good flexibility as to which ones to use.

Kevin
||.......|| Suggested format for Asking Portfolio Questions (edit original post)

travellight
Posts: 2686
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:52 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by travellight » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:25 pm

I signed up for the Model 3 the very first day online. I was worried I might not get within the 200,000 to get the federal tax credit of $7500 so I just bought used Tesla S P85 last week which will help me get in the early wave of recipients. I recently looked at the Bolt and didn't like the aesthetics.

Afty
Posts: 548
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Afty » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:33 pm

Chevy Bolts are already seeing big discounts: http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/ ... -discounts

There might be some good deals out there for anyone interested.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:44 pm

Afty wrote:Chevy Bolts are already seeing big discounts: http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/ ... -discounts

There might be some good deals out there for anyone interested.
I'm sorry to see such a half-hearted launch by Chevy. The more EVs there are, the better.

madbrain
Posts: 4533
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by madbrain » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:09 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Afty wrote:Chevy Bolts are already seeing big discounts: http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/ ... -discounts

There might be some good deals out there for anyone interested.
I'm sorry to see such a half-hearted launch by Chevy. The more EVs there are, the better.
This may not be only be a Bolt issue, but a GM issue a well.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... ar-AAofFfZ

emoore
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by emoore » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:46 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Afty wrote:Chevy Bolts are already seeing big discounts: http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/ ... -discounts

There might be some good deals out there for anyone interested.
I'm sorry to see such a half-hearted launch by Chevy. The more EVs there are, the better.
Why is it half hearted?

randomguy
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by randomguy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:49 pm

Kevin M wrote:
wrongfunds wrote:Acton, MA via Edison NJ to Herndon VA At least 4 trips per year.
Supercharger density looks quite high along this route. EVTrip Planner shows charging stops at Milford South, Cranbury, and Newark. In an MS 70D with 19" tires, total driving time 7:39, total charging time 1:24, but of course this will vary with speed, temperature, and payload. You drive by quite a few SCs that you don't need to stop at, so looks like pretty good flexibility as to which ones to use.

Kevin
The southern end only has 2 station in Newark and Maryland. I wouldn't call that dense. Doable. If the range is down around 200 this could be a pain. Get north of 250 or so (to account for weather) and it is a nonissue.

User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1307
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by just frank » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:36 am

emoore wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Afty wrote:Chevy Bolts are already seeing big discounts: http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/ ... -discounts

There might be some good deals out there for anyone interested.
I'm sorry to see such a half-hearted launch by Chevy. The more EVs there are, the better.
Why is it half hearted?
Initial production is not large, and they are doing a gradual rollout nationwide...first CA for a few months, then the CARB states for a few months.

Doesn't get to me in PA until July.

I guess this makes sense if you want to ramp production slowly and be conservative lest there are production problems that require delays and not alienate customers.

The Tesla fans will say it is what you do if you only really intend to sell in CARB states in limited volume....a 'compliance car'.

I for one am agnostic, and know that EV sales in the dead of winter are always bottoming out AND that the CA EV market is very competitive.

I'll wait to see where they are at in a year and whether they decide to advertise it. IIRC they never did advertise the Volt.

If the sales stay <5k units/mo and no advertising...compliance car. Or a GM vanity/hobby technology project hedging against a future tech disruption they would hope never comes.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:57 am

The Bolt won't be available in all 50 states until September. As just frank says, this could be a sign of a cautious and prudent rollout, or it could be a sign that it's just a compliance car. Gas prices are low, the regulatory environment is likely to be less robust, and maybe some of the pressure to do well in the EV market has declined.

I'm a Tesla fanboy, but I honestly want the Bolt to do well, and for other manufacturers to do well in the BEV space also. I think that 90% of consumers have use cases that make BEV a reasonable solution, but it will take education/promotion/advertising to convince them.

User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:09 am

just frank wrote: Initial production is not large, and they are doing a gradual rollout nationwide...first CA for a few months, then the CARB states for a few months.

Doesn't get to me in PA until July.
TomatoTomahto wrote:The Bolt won't be available in all 50 states until September. As just frank says, this could be a sign of a cautious and prudent rollout, or it could be a sign that it's just a compliance car.
We have at least one person in NC who shared with our local group that his Bolt is currently on a truck heading here and will hopefully arrive before end-of-month. With the discounting in CA, it was worth it for him to go ahead and pay for shipping and buy the car sight unseen. I fear that GM's rollout plan will cause a few "early adopters" to take a similar route given the overall logistics and cost. If you are not in the market for a 2017 car though, you may decide to wait until 2018's version.
TomatoTomahto wrote: I'm a Tesla fanboy, but I honestly want the Bolt to do well, and for other manufacturers to do well in the BEV space also. I think that 90% of consumers have use cases that make BEV a reasonable solution, but it will take education/promotion/advertising to convince them.
I agree with every part of this statement.

User avatar
Kevin M
Posts: 8882
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:25 pm

randomguy wrote:
Kevin M wrote:
wrongfunds wrote:Acton, MA via Edison NJ to Herndon VA At least 4 trips per year.
Supercharger density looks quite high along this route. EVTrip Planner shows charging stops at Milford South, Cranbury, and Newark. In an MS 70D with 19" tires, total driving time 7:39, total charging time 1:24, but of course this will vary with speed, temperature, and payload. You drive by quite a few SCs that you don't need to stop at, so looks like pretty good flexibility as to which ones to use.
The southern end only has 2 station in Newark and Maryland. I wouldn't call that dense. Doable. If the range is down around 200 this could be a pain. Get north of 250 or so (to account for weather) and it is a nonissue.
Granted, density is lower at the southern end, but still more than adequate. Distance between the SCs in Newark and MD is only about 85 miles, which is closer together than for some routes I drive regularly.

Anyone can use EV Trip Planner to check this stuff out for themselves. Plugging in the lowest range model, Model 60 S, going 10% faster than average traffic, cabin temp 72, external temp 20, payload 500 lbs, 20 mph headwind, all legs of this trip are easy, and rated miles used between the two southernmost SCs is only 155 miles. I would do this trip without hesitation.

EDIT: Of course you will spend a lot more time charging in more severe weather conditions like this. Driving slower helps--you can knock about 30 minutes off charging time on this trip in these conditions by reducing speed to average traffic speed. Driving speed has a big impact on range, so is the most important variable under your control. If I get uncomfortable with buffer remaining at destination, I just drive the speed limit until I get comfortable with my buffer again, and this has always worked for me, including ascending mountains in 30 degree weather.

Kevin
||.......|| Suggested format for Asking Portfolio Questions (edit original post)

inbox788
Posts: 4191
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by inbox788 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:00 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote: I'm a Tesla fanboy, but I honestly want the Bolt to do well, and for other manufacturers to do well in the BEV space also. I think that 90% of consumers have use cases that make BEV a reasonable solution, but it will take education/promotion/advertising to convince them.
I agree with every part of this statement.
I'll dissent. It's not that I'm against BEV, but that the cost and environment isn't quite ready yet. Going from 2% BEV to 20% is going to be slow, but I think once we hit that point, it will quickly become 80%. Still, with hundreds of millions of ICE vehicles on the road, it will be another decade before gas stations start being dismantled en mass.

We still have a lot of infrastructure problems to solve. Building enough batteries. Building more charging stations. Recycling billions of batteries in 10 or 20 years. The existing crop of under 100 mile range vehicles has shown it's an inadequate range. Once the non-subsidized $30,000 new BEV vehicle with over 200 mile range and free fast home charger installed is available, I think we'll see a big pickup in uptake. The Bolt is helping to get us there, but there's still a lot of cost reduction to do.

wrongfunds
Posts: 918
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:11 pm

We go via 84/684/287/Tappan Zee/Garden State Pkway/NJTP/95/495/287 and apart from the Edison one, I really don't see any until I am well on the NJTP. Also parked overnight at Herndon, VA I see no charger around at all. What is the charge time on standard 110V outside plug?

User avatar
Kevin M
Posts: 8882
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:00 pm

wrongfunds wrote:We go via 84/684/287/Tappan Zee/Garden State Pkway/NJTP/95/495/287 and apart from the Edison one, I really don't see any until I am well on the NJTP. Also parked overnight at Herndon, VA I see no charger around at all. What is the charge time on standard 110V outside plug?
Taking these in reverse order.

You only get about 3 rated miles of charge per hour on 110/120, so say about 36 rated miles for an overnight charge of 12 hours. Enough to help if you're on the edge, or to give you some driving around miles in town.

If approaching Herndon from the North, I'd charge at Laurel, which is 38 miles away, and even in severe weather conditions noted in previous reply, uses 61 rated miles in a MS60. So if heading back north after Herndon, that's only about 120 RM for the round trip, giving you 80 rated miles to spare if you charge close to 100% with 200 RM mile capacity. And again, this is in severe weather conditions, so much easier if more moderate weather (you're unlikely to get 20 mph headwinds in both directions).

I'm not going to try and duplicate your route exactly--you can do that using EV Trip Planner if you want. I'll just tell you that you hit your first SC in Auburn, MA in about 38 miles using the route EVTP devises. You're going to leave home with 90% or more charge, so you don't need to stop at the first SC, but can continue to West Hartford, which is about 102 miles from your origination point. Being able to skip a supercharger is an example of what I'd call high SC density.

Again, I just don't see any challenges at all in making this trip. With an EV using only SCs, you may not be able to go exactly the way you want, but you usually can get where you want to go.

Another good option on some trips is destination chargers, which are at many hotels and restaurants. A destination charger charges at about 30 rated miles per hour, so great for overnight stays. I've used them at hotels to avoid having to go out of my way to hit an SC, or eliminating an extra SC stop. For example, I recently used a destination charger on a weekend stay in Cambria, CA, avoiding the need to make a slight detour to hit the SC in Atascadero on my way home. Or, I could have headed north on Hwy 1, except that it was closed--I did this on a previous trip.

Finally, if you're making frequent trips to one residence, consider having a 240V/40A outlet installed, which is what you'll typically use at home, and which provides the same 30 miles of rated range per hour as a destination charger. This is what I did at a house we will travel to several times a year, eliminating the need to stop at the local SC as we've done in the past.

Kevin
||.......|| Suggested format for Asking Portfolio Questions (edit original post)

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 6946
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:16 pm

Two things to add:
If I'm taking a trip, I charge to 90% overnight, but I feel comfortable topping it off to 100% the morning of the trip. Batteries don't mind being at 100% as long as they're not going to be parked that way.
There's a new Supercharger (12 stalls) near the Tappan Zee Bridge in Tarrytown. I think it opened 1-2 months ago.

Post Reply