Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

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canon_shooter
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby canon_shooter » Tue May 30, 2017 3:39 pm

Sandi wrote:
I'd be tempted to lease one for my 100-mile RT commute, but I'd put too many miles on it.


I'm curious Sandi, an EV seems to be perfect for a 100 RT commute and you have to put the miles on some car assuming you are driving so what's the downside of putting too many miles on it? Do you already have a car that you use and depreciated down to zero? That's why I kept my BMW 328i Convertible for 21 years It ran great, looked great, but there was no heating, no cooling, the trunk had a mind of it's own so I just kept it for commuting until it locked the trunk with my laptop in it and I couldn't open it. That was the last straw.
Glad to hear your hubby enjoys the vehicle.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Sandi_k » Wed May 31, 2017 1:31 pm

canon_shooter wrote:Sandi wrote:
I'd be tempted to lease one for my 100-mile RT commute, but I'd put too many miles on it.


I'm curious Sandi, an EV seems to be perfect for a 100 RT commute and you have to put the miles on some car assuming you are driving so what's the downside of putting too many miles on it? Do you already have a car that you use and depreciated down to zero? That's why I kept my BMW 328i Convertible for 21 years It ran great, looked great, but there was no heating, no cooling, the trunk had a mind of it's own so I just kept it for commuting until it locked the trunk with my laptop in it and I couldn't open it. That was the last straw.
Glad to hear your hubby enjoys the vehicle.


I have a 7.5 year old luxury car that is much more comfortable for me (post spinal surgery) and my elderly mom. My plan is to drive it until it's 10 years old. (I'm putting so many miles on it now that its value is essentially eradicated). In 2020, when I'm looking for the next car, I will consider an EV - but I need to squeeze every reliable mile out of the car I have now. :D

I am also hoping that costs will come down, range will go up, and comfort will be more of an important factor.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby zhiwiller » Wed May 31, 2017 5:07 pm

Traded in my 10 year old Civic last month and got a Bolt. Still in the Honeymoon period, but its the best car I've ever owned so far.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby TomatoTomahto » Wed May 31, 2017 6:09 pm

zhiwiller wrote:Traded in my 10 year old Civic last month and got a Bolt. Still in the Honeymoon period, but its the best car I've ever owned so far.

It pleases me greatly whenever someone buys an EV. We can go back and forth about Tesla 3 vs Tesla S vs Chevy Bolt, but the biggest difference is between EV and ICE. Hybrids are neither fish nor fowl, but I guess they serve a purpose.

I'm a year+ into my X, but I love it as much as I've ever loved anything that doesn't breathe. I wish you the same year after year.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby BrandonBogle » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:25 am

canon_shooter wrote:I decided to purchase a Premier Bolt in early April 2017 vs a Tesla (S or 3) for the following reasons (and I'm happy with the decision)
...
So, I've had the Bolt for a month now with 2000 miles put on it. It's perfect for my needs, going to the gym, groceries, social events, visits to local wineries (holds 2 cases of wine just fine in the deep trunk and seats fold flat for even more storage), driving to meetings, commute traffic. And, as true with the S as well, the acceleration of an EV is awesome. It's actually a lot of fun to drive and comfortable. It charges overnight and is always ready to go. I would highly recommend the Premier over the LT for the safety features, leather seats. Also the fast charger option just in case you find you want to go on a longer trip. It's not the S, and if you can live with that, then I think you'll find it a rewarding vehicle and you can spend the money you save on other items.
thanks


Great writeup and congrats canon_shooter! Exactly to my point, get the car that works for you. Since immediacy was a factor given your old car calling it quits, cross-shopping an S and Bolt is valid in that case and many would be hard pressed to pay the Tesla premium over the EV premium vs. a fuel-efficient gas car. This is why we have room and choices in the market.

Just out of curiosity, I know it is hard (especially given the seat comfort, noise threshold, etc.) but I would be interested to know once you can test drive a Model 3 how that would have faired in your decision had it been immediately available to meet your needs. Hopefully you will get that opportunity later this year and can post a follow up.

Meanwhile, enjoy waking up each morning to a "full tank"! :D

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby btenny » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:06 pm

Well the Model 3 is getting closer. I saw a Model 3 in the wild driving south on HWY 395 near Bishop. That is south of Reno and in the mountains. I guess they are testing the car for various issues. So maybe they will start limited production next month or the next month. Good luck to those that are on the waiting list.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby WolfgangPauli » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:21 pm

I must admit, I will not likely get either for a while.. have about 6 years before the wheels fall off of the car I have. But, having said that, I was in Detroit last week and saw a Chevy Bolt at no other than a BP gas station.

What was it doing there? Charging!!! The BP station had chargers and the person was doing a quick charge. It had MFG plates so it was likely an engineer but the Bolt looked beautiful. I hope GM got it right but it certainly looks that way.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby zhiwiller » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:45 am

WolfgangPauli wrote:I must admit, I will not likely get either for a while.. have about 6 years before the wheels fall off of the car I have. But, having said that, I was in Detroit last week and saw a Chevy Bolt at no other than a BP gas station.

What was it doing there? Charging!!! The BP station had chargers and the person was doing a quick charge. It had MFG plates so it was likely an engineer but the Bolt looked beautiful. I hope GM got it right but it certainly looks that way.


Oh man, I hope it becomes normal to have CCS chargers at gas stations. I go to my local gas station fairly often still to get drinks or something else on the way in to work.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby danaht » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:48 am

As for pure electric cars like the Tesla 3 - I am worried about the batteries in these cars. It seems like Lithium Ion batteries don't have a long lifetime - and start losing capacity right away. Also, I am worried about the battery exploding if the car is involved in a wreck. I am glad the driving range is slowly being expanded -but the current high cost of replacing these giant batteries is what will keep me from buying an EV anytime soon. EVs will be much better as soon as they can improve the battery technology to something beyond lithium-ion.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby squirm » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:21 am

danaht wrote:As for pure electric cars like the Tesla 3 - I am worried about the batteries in these cars. It seems like Lithium Ion batteries don't have a long lifetime - and start losing capacity right away. Also, I am worried about the battery exploding if the car is involved in a wreck.


Where are you getting this information from? Please cite.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Longdog » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:29 am

danaht wrote:As for pure electric cars like the Tesla 3 - I am worried about the batteries in these cars. It seems like Lithium Ion batteries don't have a long lifetime - and start losing capacity right away. Also, I am worried about the battery exploding if the car is involved in a wreck. I am glad the driving range is slowly being expanded -but the current high cost of replacing these giant batteries is what will keep me from buying an EV anytime soon. EVs will be much better as soon as they can improve the battery technology to something beyond lithium-ion.


If your concerns are based on information you've recently been told or read about, you are misinformed, as things have changed considerably in the past few years. But regardless, you probably shouldn't get an EV.
Steve

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby btenny » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:39 am

How does a charging cycle count in a Tesla? Does it like to the charged and plugged in every day even if it is not driven? I am thinking about older people like me who do not commute owning a Tesla 3 and charging it after going to the store for 3 miles and then doing that every day. Does that use up the charge cycles? I thought Li-ion batteries were only good for 2000 cycles (or so) which makes me wonder how they count those cycles. Or is the recommended process like a ICE car where you only charge it if it is down to 1/4 full? Anyone know?

Also what are the home charging rules if the car is not driven much. Do you keep it plugged in? How about not driving it for 2-3 months?

Just thinking..

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby TomatoTomahto » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:55 am

Posting error

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Kevin M
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:37 pm

btenny wrote:How does a charging cycle count in a Tesla? Does it like to the charged and plugged in every day even if it is not driven? I am thinking about older people like me who do not commute owning a Tesla 3 and charging it after going to the store for 3 miles and then doing that every day. Does that use up the charge cycles? I thought Li-ion batteries were only good for 2000 cycles (or so) which makes me wonder how they count those cycles. Or is the recommended process like a ICE car where you only charge it if it is down to 1/4 full? Anyone know?

Also what are the home charging rules if the car is not driven much. Do you keep it plugged in? How about not driving it for 2-3 months?

Just thinking..

Tesla generally recommends keeping the car plugged in when not being driven. A common saying is, "A plugged-in Tesla is a happy Tesla". Here's what my manual says:
Model S has one of the most sophisticated
battery systems in the world. The most
important way to preserve the Battery is to
LEAVE YOUR Model S PLUGGED IN when you
are not using it. This is particularly important if
you are not planning to drive Model S for
several weeks. When plugged in, Model S
wakes up when needed to automatically
maintain a charge level that maximizes the
lifetime of the Battery.

There is no advantage to waiting until the
Battery’s level is low before charging. In fact,
the Battery performs best when charged
regularly

From a practical perspective, we usually plug in when we're done driving it for the day. We definitely don't bother plugging in between short local trips in a single day.

We typically set the charge level to 80%. If for some reason I've set the charge level higher, and at the end of the day we're above 80%, I may not plug in overnight, but since it only takes a few seconds to plug in, it doesn't really matter much. Conversely, if I do a longish local trip that depletes the battery to say 50% or less, I'll usually plug in when I get home, just so we have the reserve if something unexpected comes up; and chances are we won't use the car anymore during that day anyway. I wouldn't bother plugging in if I got home with 50% or even less and I knew I was going to take a short local trip soon after.

Obviously when traveling and staying at hotels without destination chargers, which usually is the case, we don't plug in overnight.

You don't lose much capacity with daily charging in the 50%-90% range, which is the range Tesla recommends for daily use. From Tesla forum posts I've seen, there seems to be a small capacity loss in the first year or so, but then it slows down. Based on the rated miles I see at 100% charge (which I only charge to immediately before a long trip leg), I appear to have lost maybe 3% capacity in less than one year, but it doesn't seem to have declined since then. Even this is subject to some uncertainty, since the rated miles displayed is based on the computer's estimate, and apparently that could increase if you do a few deep charge cycles (charge to 100% then drive until less than 10% a few times), since this can provide the computer with a better range of data to use in estimating rated miles.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby BrandonBogle » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:39 am

My early 2013 Model S with a 61,000 miles is set to charge regularly to 90%. After all this time and miles, I've dropped from a 265-mile 100% to a 262-mile 100% charge. So 3 miles lost in over four years and 61k miles. Meanwhile, I've seen many, many, internal combustion engine cars go up in flames on the interstate. A Tesla could burn to the car, sure. But so can any car.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Leif » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:09 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:My early 2013 Model S with a 61,000 miles is set to charge regularly to 90%. After all this time and miles, I've dropped from a 265-mile 100% to a 262-mile 100% charge. So 3 miles lost in over four years and 61k miles. Meanwhile, I've seen many, many, internal combustion engine cars go up in flames on the interstate. A Tesla could burn to the car, sure. But so can any car.

Wow, your battery life is excellent!

Perhaps this belongs in the Model S thread, but I noted the discussion above. I have a Dec. 2016 Model S 90D. Started out with 266 @ 90%. Now, 6 months and 7K later I have 259 @ 90%. I wonder if it is the new battery chemistry with the 5% silicon? Do you supercharge much? Do you keep your car on a home charger all the time? I mostly Supercharge (once a week) with an occasional home charge. So most of the time my car is not on a charger. I mostly keep the battery between 10%-90%. On one or two occasions I went to 5% and 95%.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby travellight » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:53 am

I charge to the max at superchargers prior to or on a long trip. Otherwise, I may go several days without plugging in if my charge is between 50-90% and then do a full charge to 90% twice a week. Mine is new with about 1000 miles so far and I am hoping this is okay. I got to 20% on a recent trip 2 days ago and then was fully charged overnight at the hotel.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby BrandonBogle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:34 am

I similarly don't often plug in unless I am below 50% and then charge to 90%. That typically means that I also only charge twice a week normally.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby researcher » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:41 am

travellight wrote:I charge to the max at superchargers prior to or on a long trip. Otherwise, I may go several days without plugging in if my charge is between 50-90% and then do a full charge to 90% twice a week. Mine is new with about 1000 miles so far and I am hoping this is okay. I got to 20% on a recent trip 2 days ago and then was fully charged overnight at the hotel.

I'm curious why the last several posters mention charging to only 90%.
Is this to minimize battery degradation?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby TomatoTomahto » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:46 am

I have my charger set to 220V/30A rate at home, although I can set it to 40A if I want to. I think that a slow and steady charge can't do any harm, and might be beneficial.

Since it takes me roughly 5-10 seconds to plug it in (the charger is between my car's front door and my house's entry door), I just plug it in as a matter of habit. Ditto unplugging it when heading out.

ETA: My car is at 80% charge every morning, unless I know that I'm taking a long drive.
Last edited by TomatoTomahto on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby TomatoTomahto » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:48 am

researcher wrote:
travellight wrote:I charge to the max at superchargers prior to or on a long trip. Otherwise, I may go several days without plugging in if my charge is between 50-90% and then do a full charge to 90% twice a week. Mine is new with about 1000 miles so far and I am hoping this is okay. I got to 20% on a recent trip 2 days ago and then was fully charged overnight at the hotel.

I'm curious why the last several posters mention charging to only 90%.
Is this to minimize battery degradation?

The battery prefers not to be at 100% when parked for hours. 100% is fine if you're going to be driving.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby researcher » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:21 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:The battery prefers not to be at 100% when parked for hours.

What does this mean?
It is an ambiguous way of saying battery degradation?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby squirm » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:55 pm

What is your supercharger rate? Anyone getting 120kw?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby bigdav160 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:12 pm

I didn't read all the responses but I would consider which company will be in business in 10-20 years.

Tesla loses money on every vehicle and has not turned a profit. I am not sure it ever will. (Also not a fan of Elon).

My nod goes to GM

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby squirm » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:26 pm

bigdav160 wrote:I didn't read all the responses but I would consider which company will be in business in 10-20 years.

Tesla loses money on every vehicle and has not turned a profit. I am not sure it ever will. (Also not a fan of Elon).

My nod goes to GM


You mean like, when GM had to be bailed out by the US government?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby TomatoTomahto » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:35 pm

squirm wrote:What is your supercharger rate? Anyone getting 120kw?

I don't usually pay much attention, but iirc, charging at the new Superchargers in Tarrytown, NY, I was getting more than 300 mph which would be more than 100 kw. I'm usually taking a biological break when charging :beer

I think the newer Superchargers are being put in at 135 kwh.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Leif » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:20 pm

bigdav160 wrote:I didn't read all the responses but I would consider which company will be in business in 10-20 years.

Tesla loses money on every vehicle and has not turned a profit. I am not sure it ever will. (Also not a fan of Elon).

My nod goes to GM

Their margins on their cars are some of the highest in the industry. However, they are going through rapid growth and expansion, unlike other large car makers. So they lose money due to expenses like the Gigafactory construction. I wonder were this "loses money on each vehicle" comes from? Perhaps those holding short positions?

Tesla gross margin over the last four years was 24%.
GM gross margin was 11%.

Tesla quarterly margin:
March 31, 2017 24.77%
Dec. 31, 2016 19.05%
Sept. 30, 2016 27.70%
June 30, 2016 21.64%
March 31, 2016 22.01%
Dec. 31, 2015 18.00%
Sept. 30, 2015 24.71%
June 30, 2015 22.34%
March 31, 2015 27.67%
Dec. 31, 2014 27.36%
Sept. 30, 2014 29.57%
June 30, 2014 27.69%
March 31, 2014 25.00%
Dec. 31, 2013 25.45%
Sept. 30, 2013 23.85%
June 30, 2013 24.80%
March 31, 2013 17.15%

My nod goes to Tesla.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Leif » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:27 pm

squirm wrote:What is your supercharger rate? Anyone getting 120kw?

I've NEVER got 120. The max was about 110, and that is for a very short period of time.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Leif » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:34 pm

researcher wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:The battery prefers not to be at 100% when parked for hours.

What does this mean?
It is an ambiguous way of saying battery degradation?

Tesla recommends a typical charge up to 90%. 100% is okay if you plan on going on a trip and would like a little additional range.

I think the jury is still out on degradation. However, the chemistry is similar to a laptop battery. The most degradation is in the early stages. The curve flattens over time.

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:44 pm

squirm wrote:What is your supercharger rate? Anyone getting 120kw?

It depends on your state of charge (SOC) and whether or not you're in a paired stall. For me, in an unpaired stall, %SOC + SC rate in kW is between about 115 and 135, with the higher number being at lower SOC. So if I start at 15% SOC in an unpaired stall, I'll probably start at about 120 kW, but that will rapidly taper.

Here are a few examples from my SC pictures. At 21% got 114 kW (so sum = 135). At 76% got 40 kW, sum = 116. At 29% got 102 kW, sum = 131.

If you're in a paired stall it will be lower, and will depend on whether you were the first or second to plug in. My understanding is that if you are first, you'll get 75% of what you'd get if unpaired, and if second, 25%.

You can also get a bad SC, and a tech I met at an SC explained to me that charge rate can be lower if the cable is very hot due to a combination of no break between SC sessions and hot weather. At one SC when it was about 100 degrees F, I was getting a very low rate of charge, and the battery cooling fan noise was very loud--much louder than anything I'd heard before. I switched to the other stall of same pair, and same thing. I switched to another stall in a different pair, and charge rate was as expected, despite continued loud cooling noise.

An extremely cold battery also will barely charge at all (or so I've read on the Tesla forum). The advice for extremely cold weather is to charge at the end of the last trip leg when the battery is warm, rather than waiting until next morning when it is cold.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Leif » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:44 pm

Kevin,

What size battery do you have?

I have a 90. I think the max I've ever seen was around 110. My lowest SOC was 6%. More typical is 10%. I normally SC in the early AM with temps in the 60s. I drive about 15 miles to the SC so the battery is warmed. I've only been paired once, that was late in my charge. My car is 6 months old. I tried multiple chargers at one location, and one charger at a different location.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:00 am

Leif wrote:Kevin,

What size battery do you have?

70 kWh.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Leif » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:58 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Leif wrote:Kevin,

What size battery do you have?

70 kWh.

Kevin

Interesting. I had heard the max charge rate of batteries < 85 (14 vs. 16 modules) was around 90 kW.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:32 pm

Leif wrote:
Kevin M wrote:
Leif wrote:Kevin,

What size battery do you have?

70 kWh.

Kevin

Interesting. I had heard the max charge rate of batteries < 85 (14 vs. 16 modules) was around 90 kW.

Bad intel:

Image

Based on the subsequent photos, I think this was shortly after plugging into the first stall of the bad SC pair, before the charge rate plunged. Note the high temperature. In a subsequent picture I see 52 kW with only 34% SOC, and since this adds to only 86, we know something was wrong--minimum sum I recall seeing in a properly functioning unpaired stall is 114 or 115, and as mentioned, at this low SOC it should have been closer to 135, as in the picture; I think that one (52 kW at 34% SOC) was after I'd switched to the second stall in the bad SC pair.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby WhyNotUs » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:39 pm

If my only two choices are those, I would buy a Bolt as it is available now.

I have a Leaf and they are selling them very cheap right now, worth a look as well. My 2013 has 43,000 miles and still 12 bars. I am not in a hot climate.
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby madbrain » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:14 am

WolfgangPauli wrote:I must admit, I will not likely get either for a while.. have about 6 years before the wheels fall off of the car I have. But, having said that, I was in Detroit last week and saw a Chevy Bolt at no other than a BP gas station.

What was it doing there? Charging!!! The BP station had chargers and the person was doing a quick charge. It had MFG plates so it was likely an engineer but the Bolt looked beautiful. I hope GM got it right but it certainly looks that way.


Our local Wal-Mart - of all places - just installed a pair of Evgo DC fast charger - each with dual plugs, both Chademo and CCS. First time I saw a CCS plug in the wild. Our Bolt recently crossed the 5,000 mile mark, and we have yet to need a fast charge, so I never looked for one.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby madbrain » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:18 am

researcher wrote:
travellight wrote:I charge to the max at superchargers prior to or on a long trip. Otherwise, I may go several days without plugging in if my charge is between 50-90% and then do a full charge to 90% twice a week. Mine is new with about 1000 miles so far and I am hoping this is okay. I got to 20% on a recent trip 2 days ago and then was fully charged overnight at the hotel.

I'm curious why the last several posters mention charging to only 90%.
Is this to minimize battery degradation?


The Bolt also has a "hilltop reserve" mode which can be useful if you live on top of a hill, like we do. Otherwise, if your battery is full, you do not get regenerated energy on the way down, which can be substantial. We actually have not enabled this mode - we only need to charge the Bolt a couple times a week so far, so most downhill trips are not done with a full battery.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby just frank » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:25 am

madbrain wrote:
researcher wrote:
travellight wrote:I charge to the max at superchargers prior to or on a long trip. Otherwise, I may go several days without plugging in if my charge is between 50-90% and then do a full charge to 90% twice a week. Mine is new with about 1000 miles so far and I am hoping this is okay. I got to 20% on a recent trip 2 days ago and then was fully charged overnight at the hotel.

I'm curious why the last several posters mention charging to only 90%.
Is this to minimize battery degradation?


The Bolt also has a "hilltop reserve" mode which can be useful if you live on top of a hill, like we do. Otherwise, if your battery is full, you do not get regenerated energy on the way down, which can be substantial. We actually have not enabled this mode - we only need to charge the Bolt a couple times a week so far, so most downhill trips are not done with a full battery.


There are a lot of good reasons to only charge your EV to 80-90% full, and these are two.

But the current EPA regs say that if a car has such a charging mode as an option, which is intended to be used frequently, the stated range on the sticker needs to be discounted by that amount! Nissan had such an option, and removed it b/c it dropped the EPA range on the window sticker!

I suspect the longer range EVs will have this mode..the short range ones in the US...not so much.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby madbrain » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:30 am

Sandi_k wrote:My husband has had his Bolt for about the same amount of time, and concurs almost entirely with you. He's 5'11" too, and we've actually had 5 people in the car for a short drive - no issues about legroom or comfort.

He installed his own fast charger, and is very pleased with it as well. I'd be tempted to lease one for my 100-mile RT commute, but I'd put too many miles on it. :D


What is generally meant by "fast charger" is "DC fast charger", something that is seldom installed in a residential setting, and may not even possible depending on your electric utility and the size of your electrical panel.

My guess is that your husband installed a 240V level 2 charger; also known as an EVSE. This is much faster than the 110V (level 1), and indeed, quite fast in the Bolt which has a 32A level 2 charger - 7.6 kW charge rate. But still well short of DC fast chargers which can achieve charge rates many times higher. Reportedly, the Bolt will average 44 kW best case with CCS, which means about 1h20min for a full charge.

A level 2 charge at 240V/32 amp will take about 8.5 hours in the Bolt .
Level 1/12 amp would in theory take 55 hours for a full charge.
Level 1/8 amps (default setting for the car, with the included EVSE) could take 85 hours for a full charge.
Last edited by madbrain on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby madbrain » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:35 am

just frank wrote:There are a lot of good reasons to only charge your EV to 80-90% full, and these are two.

But the current EPA regs say that if a car has such a charging mode as an option, which is intended to be used frequently, the stated range on the sticker needs to be discounted by that amount! Nissan had such an option, and removed it b/c it dropped the EPA range on the window sticker!

I suspect the longer range EVs will have this mode..the short range ones in the US...not so much.


I'm aware of this - the 2012 Leaf had an EPA range of 73 miles because of the availability of an 80% charging option. And the 2013 removed the 80% option, and got 84 miles range, without any battery capacity or other notable efficiency improvement (other than the heater which is not factored into the EPA range test !). My actual range at 100% was closer to 55-65 miles depending on season, though. I never got anywhere close to EPA numbers.

AFAIK, Chevy got away with the full 100% charge range on the Bolt by not calling this hilltop reserve option an 80% or 90% charge option but simply "hilltop reserve". I don't think they are even documenting a specific charge percentage for this option, just that it doesn't charge in full.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby BrandonBogle » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:30 am

madbrain wrote:
Sandi_k wrote:My husband has had his Bolt for about the same amount of time, and concurs almost entirely with you. He's 5'11" too, and we've actually had 5 people in the car for a short drive - no issues about legroom or comfort.

He installed his own fast charger, and is very pleased with it as well. I'd be tempted to lease one for my 100-mile RT commute, but I'd put too many miles on it. :D


What is generally meant by "fast charger" is "DC fast charger", something that is seldom installed in a residential setting, and may not even possible depending on your electric utility and the size of your electrical panel.

My guess is that your husband installed a 240V level 2 charger; also known as an EVSE. This is much faster than the 110V (level 1), and indeed, quite fast in the Bolt which has a 32A level 2 charger - 7.6 kW charge rate. But still well short of DC fast chargers which can achieve charge rates many times higher. Reportedly, the Bolt will average 44 kW best case with CCS, which means about 1h20min for a full charge.

A level 2 charge at 240V/32 amp will take about 8.5 hours in the Bolt .
Level 1/12 amp would in theory take 55 hours for a full charge.
Level 1/8 amps (default setting for the car, with the included EVSE) could take 85 hours for a full charge.


Much of this would be marketing.

Typically, I personally don't call anything less than 50 amps "fast charger", but I wouldn't call even 240v/80 amp (what I can do on my car) "fast" when that equates to 19.2 kW and many L3 (DC charging) can provide 35 kW, 50 kW, or even 135 kW (Tesla Supercharger). We have 6 kW charging at work and it's painful I need significant miles for a trip coming up. Thankfully, I get faster charging at home and can hit a Supercharger if necessary. But still, my entire shift at work wouldn't completely filly up my car (though I don't complain to work since we offer charging for free).

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby madbrain » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:41 am

BrandonBogle wrote:We have 6 kW charging at work and it's painful I need significant miles for a trip coming up. Thankfully, I get faster charging at home and can hit a Supercharger if necessary. But still, my entire shift at work wouldn't completely filly up my car (though I don't complain to work since we offer charging for free).


You are spoiled with free charging. We have 30 amp / 208V charging at work, which comes to about 6 kW as well. They are not free - $1/hour for the first 5 hours, then $5/hour after that - this is to minimize people hogging plugs - we have well over 100 EVs and 10 charging spots.
This would come to 16.6 cents/kWh in a Bolt, or any vehicle capable of at least 30 amps charging.
In my Volt, which can only charge at 15 amps, that's 33.3 cents/kWh.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby inbox788 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:46 pm

madbrain wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote:We have 6 kW charging at work and it's painful I need significant miles for a trip coming up. Thankfully, I get faster charging at home and can hit a Supercharger if necessary. But still, my entire shift at work wouldn't completely filly up my car (though I don't complain to work since we offer charging for free).


You are spoiled with free charging. We have 30 amp / 208V charging at work, which comes to about 6 kW as well. They are not free - $1/hour for the first 5 hours, then $5/hour after that - this is to minimize people hogging plugs - we have well over 100 EVs and 10 charging spots.
This would come to 16.6 cents/kWh in a Bolt, or any vehicle capable of at least 30 amps charging.
In my Volt, which can only charge at 15 amps, that's 33.3 cents/kWh.

Hogging plugs was a problem at my work. With only a few free plugs, they're always full, and some folks need the charge to get home, while the Teslas probably don't. Chances are implementing a small fee would have deterred them from occupying the spaces, but it was too difficult to collect the fee and enforce the violations.

With 100 EVs, a supercharging station could charge 3/hour or 24 in an 8 hour day. What you need is 100 regular parking spaces and 4 portable supercharging stations. Or a valet that moves the cars around all day. Eventually, when all the cars are self driving, they can self-coordinate this game of musical chairs.

How big is the cable supplying power to the supercharger? Can it safely stretch across 1000 feet (10 ft x 100 cars) parking lot?

madbrain wrote:The Bolt also has a "hilltop reserve" mode which can be useful if you live on top of a hill, like we do. Otherwise, if your battery is full, you do not get regenerated energy on the way down, which can be substantial. We actually have not enabled this mode - we only need to charge the Bolt a couple times a week so far, so most downhill trips are not done with a full battery.

This is smart! It would be awesome if it used your location and altitude to determine the level of charging, so if you live on a hilltop and were charging at home it would take into account the likely regenerative energy to work or most common routes. If you're on low ground or away from home, another top level could be used.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:29 pm

Tesla doesn't have any particular mode that limits SOC--you just set it between 50% and 100%, either at the main display in the vehicle or from the app on your phone. The 50-90% range is indicated as "daily", and the 90-100% range is indicated as "trip".

You start to lose regenerative braking somewhere above 90% (I think maybe 95%), but you also lose regenerative braking if the battery is cold. If the loss of regen is due only to high SOC, you get it back after driving a few miles. If it's due to cold weather, it may take 20 minutes of freeway driving for full regen to kick in, and it may not fully kick in at all if just driving around town in really cold weather. You might get full regen faster if you charge for awhile before starting out in cold weather, since charging warms the battery.

I don't think most Tesla owners think much about this, but just set it to 80-90% for daily driving, and then perhaps set it above 90% for a particularly long trip leg. For most of my trip legs (between SCs), 90% is more than enough, but I like to see a 20% buffer indicated at my destination when I start out, so will charge above 90% for a couple of the longer stretches on trip routes I drive. It takes a long time to go from 99% to 100%, so 99% is the effective upper limit for me.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby BrandonBogle » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:58 pm

madbrain wrote:We have 30 amp / 208V charging at work, which comes to about 6 kW as well. They are not free - $1/hour for the first 5 hours, then $5/hour after that - this is to minimize people hogging plugs - we have well over 100 EVs and 10 charging spots.


inbox788 wrote:Hogging plugs was a problem at my work. With only a few free plugs, they're always full, and some folks need the charge to get home, while the Teslas probably don't. Chances are implementing a small fee would have deterred them from occupying the spaces, but it was too difficult to collect the fee and enforce the violations.


Yes, fortunate. We are asked to limit charging to 3 hours and then move our cars and we get put on the naughty list if we abuse that (with the potentially to have our charging access revoked). There are days when I don't even plug in (I don't take the last spot unless I'm below 20%), but I have had to make extended drives for work. Getting a bit of charge helps with that, but at 6 kW only, I just fill up at home, spot charge at the office while we get ready, and make the trip. Thankfully, we have been expanding our chargers at other locations, so at my last two site visits, I was able to plug in there and charge for a few hours while doing my activities at the remote site.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby inbox788 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:51 pm

Kevin M wrote:Tesla doesn't have any particular mode that limits SOC--you just set it between 50% and 100%, either at the main display in the vehicle or from the app on your phone. The 50-90% range is indicated as "daily", and the 90-100% range is indicated as "trip".

You start to lose regenerative braking somewhere above 90% (I think maybe 95%), but you also lose regenerative braking if the battery is cold. If the loss of regen is due only to high SOC, you get it back after driving a few miles. If it's due to cold weather, it may take 20 minutes of freeway driving for full regen to kick in, and it may not fully kick in at all if just driving around town in really cold weather. You might get full regen faster if you charge for awhile before starting out in cold weather, since charging warms the battery.

I don't think most Tesla owners think much about this, but just set it to 80-90% for daily driving, and then perhaps set it above 90% for a particularly long trip leg. For most of my trip legs (between SCs), 90% is more than enough, but I like to see a 20% buffer indicated at my destination when I start out, so will charge above 90% for a couple of the longer stretches on trip routes I drive. It takes a long time to go from 99% to 100%, so 99% is the effective upper limit for me.

Kevin

100% doesn't mean 100% in the charging world. You can overcharge batteries and get a little more range out of them, but extremes (overcharging and overdraining) put extra wear&tear on the batteries, so optimizing near the extremes is very desirable and can extend the life of the batteries. If you're using the middle 20-80% charge range, benefits are much less, so if your commutes don't stress the range, it's nothing to worry about. Low range EVs (under 150 miles range) are constantly pushing the extremes, so it causes more wear on the batteries and range anxiety. Having more than 200 miles seems to fix the problem for many typical driving situations.

I didn't like the advance planning required of the Mercedes
Temporary Range Extender mode of the B-Class — which adds around 17 miles of range to the next charging session — is a little like the ‘Range Mode’ offered on Tesla’s own vehicles.

Range Mode operates by charging the Model S’ battery pack to a higher physical state of charge than the default charge mode, allowing the car to travel slightly further as a consequence. The B-Class Electric Drive’s optional range-extender does the same thing.

You'll need to preemptively engage the range-extending mode before you charge.
YOU’LL NEED TO PREEMPTIVELY ENGAGE THE RANGE-EXTENDING MODE BEFORE YOU CHARGE.
Like the Model S however, using this feature all the time will eventually reduce the lifespan of the B-Class Electric Drive’s battery pack, meaning that it should be used only when absolutely necessary. Unlike the BMW i3 REx and other range-extended electric cars with gasoline engines, it’s worth noting too that you need to pre-emptively plan to use the B-Class range-extending mode.

In other words, you have to manually choose to add extra charge before a long trip, rather than expect the range extender to help you out when the battery pack has already reached a low state of charge.

https://transportevolved.com/2014/06/24 ... -extender/

I wouldn't bother optimizing unpredictable situations myself, but it would be nice if the car would do it itself automatically, and more and more it's gaining the information necessary to figure out the optimal solutions. BTW, BMW gas range extender is promising as well, but my understanding is that it's purposely limiting (can't perpetually fill up small tank, and tank size limited by regulation -- actually hackable http://www.automobilemag.com/news/how-t ... ing-range/ ).

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:59 am

inbox788 wrote:
Temporary Range Extender mode of the B-Class — which adds around 17 miles of range to the next charging session — is a little like the ‘Range Mode’ offered on Tesla’s own vehicles.

Range Mode operates by charging the Model S’ battery pack to a higher physical state of charge than the default charge mode, allowing the car to travel slightly further as a consequence. The B-Class Electric Drive’s optional range-extender does the same thing.

I have never heard that Tesla range mode works that way, and that's not what the manual says:
Range Mode

If on, Model S conserves energy by limiting the power of the climate control system. Cabin
heating and cooling may be less effective, but seat heaters can be used to provide
warmth in colder climates. When turned on in a dual-motor vehicle, torque distribution
between the motors is optimized to maximize range.

I looked at every range mode reference in the manual, and nowhere does it say that it allows the battery to be charged to a higher SOC.

I tried range mode once on one of my early trips, but it didn't seem to make much difference, and we don't want our climate control limited, so I've never used it since that one time. I kind of forgot it was even an available feature. I just manage my energy by reducing speed a bit if my indicated destination buffer drops more than I like.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby ArmchairArchitect » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:57 pm

danaht wrote:Also, I am worried about the battery exploding if the car is involved in a wreck.


So you are worried about a battery exploding based on a handful of isolated incidents and a statistically near-zero chance of happening, but aren't worried about a gas-powered car with a fuel tank exploding, with a statistically MUCH higher rate of occurrence?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby inbox788 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:33 pm

Kevin M wrote:I looked at every range mode reference in the manual, and nowhere does it say that it allows the battery to be charged to a higher SOC.

I'm unfamiliar with the Tesla, but found this article that seems to describe something along this line and what changes they've made to make things easier and simpler for drivers.

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-model-s ... 27409.html

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Postby Kevin M » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:58 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Kevin M wrote:I looked at every range mode reference in the manual, and nowhere does it say that it allows the battery to be charged to a higher SOC.

I'm unfamiliar with the Tesla, but found this article that seems to describe something along this line and what changes they've made to make things easier and simpler for drivers.

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-model-s ... 27409.html

That might explain some of the confusion. From the article, written in mid-2013:
"In fact, as result of customer feedback, we have removed the Max Range versus Standard Range charge modes. Customers can now adjust the Model S charge level based on their individual and anticipated driving needs." On the newest cars, it's now a slider setting.

So apparently there were indeed two charging modes in the past. But they got rid of that and replaced it with a slider that lets you set your max charging SOC within the range 50-100%, which is all I've ever seen (bought mine in late 2015).

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