Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

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squirm
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Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by squirm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:05 pm

Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips. Two year time frame.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Superchargers work, are relatively fast, are rarely iced, and in many locations unlike public chargers. That alone i think is a huge advantage, without even going into the car specifics.
Last edited by squirm on Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

heater
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by heater » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:31 pm

Depends on when they want a new car? Soon or 2 years from now. I'm guessing if someone put a deposit on a model 3 today that delivery wouldn't happen for 2 years. Tesla probably won't start producing model 3's in volume until next year. Plus, there are 300k plus of people on a waiting list currently.

But you are right, Tesla definitely has a leg up on the competition with their Supercharge network.

researcher
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by researcher » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:31 pm

squirm wrote:Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Superchargers work, are relatively fast, are rarely iced, and in many locations unlike public chargers. That alone i think is a huge advantage, without even going into the car specifics.

The only problem with your suggestion is that he can't buy a Model 3!

Given Tesla's poor track record on meeting production dates, and the backlog of orders, he could be waiting YEARS for a Model 3.
"Customers ordering a Model 3 in May 2016 could receive it by late 2018."

So if he orders one in February 2017, he's probably looking at late 2019!

This is a no-brainer. The Chevy Bolt.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:07 pm

If the timing is not a problem, I would lean to the Model 3 more. The Bolt could reasonably be obtained in 2017 (maybe not conveniently, but certainly possible).

That said, there are other considerations. A big one would be how comfortable the Op's friend is with the Tesla service network vs. Chevy's (not all Chevy dealers are certified to work on the Bolt)? Where I live, I have easy access to either and thus, my Tesla gets serviced with no problem. However, I know people who live in places where the nearest Tesla service center is over 200 miles away. While they don't have to get service often, when they do, it is NOT as simple as my case where a loaner gets dropped off and my car taken away.

If the friend's specific locale does not have a Tesla Service Center reasonably close, but does have a Chevy Bolt-certified service department close, that leans it more towards the Bolt.

Then there is the inherent different target driving requirements of the two. The Model 3 will be a sedan with decent legroom and seating for five adults. While it is expected to have decent cargo capacity, it would be comparable to other sedans vs. the Bolt being comparable to hatchbacks. Depending on what cargo the Op's friend wants to transport, the Bolt may be a better fit.

In our household, we are considering a Chevy Bolt to replace a Honda Fit, but my Model S will remain.


Edited for typos
Last edited by BrandonBogle on Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rguina
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by rguina » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:30 pm

@BrandonBogle gave well-balanced advice for both sides of the table.

I've driven the Tesla Model S and X and they are amazing machines. I loved the experience so much that I put down a deposit on the Tesla Model 3 last fall.

But I'm good with waiting a year or two before delivery. In fact, I prefer waiting. That gives Tesla time to work out the bugs, improve technology and efficiencies, and build more chargers.

I personally lean toward Tesla here (for my situation), simply because they have the most experience with building all electric vehicles and an established network of chargers.

The other car manufacturers will catch up, but there will likely be growing pains.

Another consideration is the tax credit. Tesla will run out of credits long before Chevy. So the Chevy may be less expensive up front when taking credits into account.

I think both are good choices, and personal preference, needs, and timeline will be the determining factors. I love this technology and I'm excited to see where it goes.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:37 pm

I'm going with Tesla. I am on the wait list for the 3, hopefully high enough up that I will get the federal tax credit.

My problem with the Bolt is my perception of Chevy's reliability (or lack thereof). The Volt hasn't had a great track record.

researcher
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by researcher » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:50 pm

letsgobobby wrote:I'm going with Tesla.

My problem with the Bolt is my perception of Chevy's reliability (or lack thereof). The Volt hasn't had a great track record.

And you think Telsa has a great track record? What are you perceptions of Tesla's reliability?
I'm surprised you feel Tesla's current lineup is more reliable than Chevy.

OP -
When is your friend looking to buy a car?
If it is sooner than the next three years, which I expect it is, then the thread is over. Buy the Bolt.
If it is longer than three years, this thread is equally meaningless, as there is no telling what new electric vehicles will be on the market by then.

heater
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by heater » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:01 pm

researcher wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:I'm going with Tesla.

My problem with the Bolt is my perception of Chevy's reliability (or lack thereof). The Volt hasn't had a great track record.

And you think Telsa has a great track record? What are you perceptions of Tesla's reliability?
I'm surprised you feel Tesla's current lineup is more reliable than Chevy.

OP -
When is your friend looking to buy a car?
If it is sooner than the next three years, which I expect it is, then the thread is over. Buy the Bolt.
If it is longer than three years, this thread is equally meaningless, as there is no telling what new electric vehicles will be on the market by then.


+1. I agree. And I own a Tesla model X so I'm a supporter of Tesla. I've had a lot of fit and finish issues with my X. The market will be filled with many more options 2-3 years from now. Car manufacturers are piling on the electric car band wagon now.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by jdb » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:04 pm

For me it would be a no brainer. Better to wait for the Tesla. It will have the current generation auto pilot which is wonderful in our Model X, with Tesla upgrading the vehicle every month or so by downloads from California. Though since have both Model S now with 50K miles and MX and two orders in for the Model 3 for adult sons could say I am biased, but bias based on driving the best cars on market today. Plus great fun. Good luck to your neighbor.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:17 pm

heater wrote:
researcher wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:I'm going with Tesla.

My problem with the Bolt is my perception of Chevy's reliability (or lack thereof). The Volt hasn't had a great track record.

And you think Telsa has a great track record? What are you perceptions of Tesla's reliability?
I'm surprised you feel Tesla's current lineup is more reliable than Chevy.

OP -
When is your friend looking to buy a car?
If it is sooner than the next three years, which I expect it is, then the thread is over. Buy the Bolt.
If it is longer than three years, this thread is equally meaningless, as there is no telling what new electric vehicles will be on the market by then.


+1. I agree. And I own a Tesla model X so I'm a supporter of Tesla. I've had a lot of fit and finish issues with my X. The market will be filled with many more options 2-3 years from now. Car manufacturers are piling on the electric car band wagon now.

I didn't say anything about Tesla's reliability. I agree it is an unknown. It is Chevy's reliability which is known, and I would not buy a Bolt.

harikaried
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by harikaried » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:24 pm

squirm wrote:Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Where are you located? Bolt is only available in California and Oregon right now (and as others have pointed out, nowhere available for Model 3 yet). Similarly, depending on the road trip destinations, Superchargers might not be convenient.

Also, is neighbor planning on having this be the only vehicle? Possibilities of using another or renting a vehicle for longer trips?

killjoy2012
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by killjoy2012 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:37 pm

It's also going to be interesting to see just how well Tesla's charging network approach works when it's not just a handful of $100k car owners using them, but it opens to the masses with a much lower $35k cost of entry... assuming they actually deliver product. In my area, the majority of my long trips, while infrequent, there aren't any SC anywhere close to where I'd be.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:52 pm

killjoy2012 wrote:It's also going to be interesting to see just how well Tesla's charging network approach works when it's not just a handful of $100k car owners using them, but it opens to the masses with a much lower $35k cost of entry... assuming they actually deliver product. In my area, the majority of my long trips, while infrequent, there aren't any SC anywhere close to where I'd be.


There are certainly areas where the Supercharger needs to expand and has plans to do so, but there many areas that have long trips enabled by the network. I personally stick to the East Coast, so DC, Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, Savannah, Atlanta, Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Key West have all been easy to do. Other areas may not be quite as easy though. One of my friends has driven his S from Tampa to Las Vegas, but I don't know if he had to make any weird detours to remain on the network.

One would be wise to look at this site with a range of 175 - 200 miles to get a realistic view of what the Model 3 (smallest battery) will be able to do in most weather (blizzards, perhaps not, but even cold weather would be doable).
https://supercharge.info

* turn on the "bubble" view to overlay that range on the map as a circle from the charger

tim1999
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by tim1999 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:53 pm

I am starting to see Tesla superchargers show up at random non-highway locations now. They just installed one at the local casino, for example.

squirm
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by squirm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:10 pm

Sorry for the post with little detail. My bad.
About two years, his interest in ev is increasing. We're in ca. He wants to go the pure ev route and not a plugin hybrid.

I still say charging stations is the biggest issue even if there are more ev choices in the near future. Look how long its taken tesla to build out their sc network. The bolt doesn't charge as fast as the teslas either.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:12 pm

squirm wrote:About two years, his interest in ev is increasing. We're in ca. He wants to go the pure ev route and not a plugin hybrid.

I still say charging stations is the biggest issue even if there are more ev choices in the near future. Look how long its taken tesla to build out their sc network. The bolt doesn't charge as fast as the teslas either.


California + 2 years = put a deposit on a Model 3 down and when his number comes up (or sooner if he needs the car sooner), compare what other options are there. Even a 2019 Bolt would likely be quite the change from the 2017 and by then, there should be other choices too. Competition is good! Plus the Model 3 deposit is fully refundable and only $1k.

Tarkus
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Tarkus » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:47 pm

I know this isn't one of the cars under consideration, but nonetheless I thought I'd pipe in. Because I recently leased an EV and I love it. I chose a BMW i3.

It's a bit more expensive than either the Tesla or the Bolt, and it has a shorter range. So it might not work for everyone. But I live in a city and really never drive more than 50 miles in a day (my average is about 16 miles).

I was thinking of putting a deposit on a Model 3, but I went with the i3 instead. I chose the i3 because it is not vaporware. It was a vehicle that actually exists now. It is fun to drive, with a traditional BMW rear wheel drive sportiness. The high seating position means it drives more like a crossover SUV. The build quality is quite nice and it feels REALLY roomy and spacious for a tiny urban car. I actually find excuses to get in the car and drive it, which I've never done. I was a bit apprehensive about how the car would handle in snow, so I got snow tires. It's actually been very solid. The traction control system is excellent.

My only criticism of the i3 so far is the stupid clamshell doors. I drive my kids around a lot, and it is a pain getting them out of the car after I pull into the garage. (It's not so bad when you are parallel parked on the street.) I also regret getting the range extender. The little IC engine is heavy enough to reduce the all-electric range, and it adds maintenance complexity. I have never used the engine to get me anywhere. If the engine has been completely idle for a few months, it will go into a "maintenance cycle". It runs the engine for 15 minutes just so oil and fuel get pumped through it, etc. In my case, my typical commutes are only 10 minutes, so when I power down the car, it considers that the maintenance cycle did not complete, and it starts up again next time. :oops: To finally break the cycle, I sat in my car with the engine running for an extra five minutes after I arrived at work. That seems ridiculous.

I have read reviews of the Bolt and I think it sounds like an amazing EV. Probably more practical than the i3. I would probably lean in the direction of getting a Bolt for the same reason that I chose the i3: you can actually get one today. I really don't feel comfortable committing the Tesla 3, which is basically still a concept car. The production version could be a lemon.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TravelGeek » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:04 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:That said, there are other considerations. A big one would be how comfortable the Op's friend is with the Tesla service network vs. Chevy's (not all Chevy dealers are certified to work on the Bolt)? Where I live, I have easy access to either and thus, my Tesla gets serviced with no problem. However, I know people who live in places where the nearest Tesla service center is over 200 miles away. While they don't have to get service often, when they do, it is NOT as simple as my case where a loaner gets dropped off and my car taken away.


I have a Tesla 3 preordered (on day one). But unfortunately the neares Tesla service center is about 120 miles away. Within the range of the car, and the amount of scheduled maintenance is limited. But still is major downside.

So I looked at the Bolt. Seems like a nice vehicle, too (it would replace a 2010 Prius). But turns out my local Chevy dealer isn't selling the Bolt and presumably doesn't plan on getting certified to maintain them either, so that puts the nearest Chevy dealer/service station about as far away as Tesla.

Now I am hoping the next generation Nissan Leaf turns out to be a good choice.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:37 pm

TravelGeek wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote:That said, there are other considerations. A big one would be how comfortable the Op's friend is with the Tesla service network vs. Chevy's (not all Chevy dealers are certified to work on the Bolt)? Where I live, I have easy access to either and thus, my Tesla gets serviced with no problem. However, I know people who live in places where the nearest Tesla service center is over 200 miles away. While they don't have to get service often, when they do, it is NOT as simple as my case where a loaner gets dropped off and my car taken away.


I have a Tesla 3 preordered (on day one). But unfortunately the neares Tesla service center is about 120 miles away. Within the range of the car, and the amount of scheduled maintenance is limited. But still is major downside.

So I looked at the Bolt. Seems like a nice vehicle, too (it would replace a 2010 Prius). But turns out my local Chevy dealer isn't selling the Bolt and presumably doesn't plan on getting certified to maintain them either, so that puts the nearest Chevy dealer/service station about as far away as Tesla.

Now I am hoping the next generation Nissan Leaf turns out to be a good choice.


Yeah, it is definitely something to consider. I didn't even consider getting my Model S until I was somewhat near a service center b/c even with a loaner (or rental paid by them) and towing, I didn't want to deal with the hassle of going any great distance. It was already an ordeal every time I needed to get my Toyota serviced (routine stuff) and figured this would be worse since it's a low volume vehicle. Any EV purchaser should evaluate that aspect and how it fits into their lifestyle.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Nate79 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:35 am

The Bolt is getting very positive reviews and will have 2+ years head start over the Model 3 not to mention the time to work thru the pre-orders. Imagine the kinks that can be worked out in 2 years (maybe even nearing time for a refresh). Should get federal tax credits on the Bolt whereas for most of the people who signed up for a Model 3 will be out of luck.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Pranav » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:53 am

Tesla Model 3
Pranav

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Slacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:00 am

killjoy2012 wrote:It's also going to be interesting to see just how well Tesla's charging network approach works when it's not just a handful of $100k car owners using them, but it opens to the masses with a much lower $35k cost of entry... assuming they actually deliver product. In my area, the majority of my long trips, while infrequent, there aren't any SC anywhere close to where I'd be.


Also keep in mind that the supercharger network will not be free to owners of the Model 3. This may or may not decrease the difficulty of getting in on a supercharger.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Easy Rhino » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:41 am

the Bolt has a level 3 fast charger as well, just different than tesla's.

letsgobobby
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by letsgobobby » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:49 am

Nate79 wrote:The Bolt is getting very positive reviews and will have 2+ years head start over the Model 3 not to mention the time to work thru the pre-orders. Imagine the kinks that can be worked out in 2 years (maybe even nearing time for a refresh). Should get federal tax credits on the Bolt whereas for most of the people who signed up for a Model 3 will be out of luck.

one of the advantages of the tesla was there was no risk to preorder. can always switch back to Bolt when your number comes up.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by harikaried » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:33 am

Nate79 wrote:The Bolt is getting very positive reviews and will have 2+ years head start over the Model 3 not to mention the time to work thru the pre-orders.
Where are you getting these dates? The Bolt started regular production in November 2016 and began deliveries in December. You're saying the Model 3 won't have any deliveries until December 2018?

Tesla has said they expect to start volume production in the second half of this year with a supplier deadline of July 1st. Maybe they'll be late or maybe they'll be early, but if they start according to their current expectations, that's just half a year later than the Bolt, and yet you're saying a time delay of at least 4 times that amount.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by harikaried » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:47 am

Slacker wrote:Also keep in mind that the supercharger network will not be free to owners of the Model 3.
It's unclear what exactly the supercharging situation will be with the Model 3, but if it continues with the current no-longer-unlimited supercharging capabilities of the Model S and Model X, there will be some amount of annual kWh credits. For the currently sold vehicles, the credits amount to 400 kWh, which is probably somewhere between 1000 to 1500 miles.

Depending on how many road trips and how far, those 1000 miles of "free" supercharging might be more than enough. Also remember that most charging is done at home or at destinations, so even a one-way 400 mile drive from Bay Area to Los Angeles would use 200 miles of credits when charging somewhere in the middle.

And even if you had to pay for the 200 miles of electricity, the California supercharging rates would be ~$10. Or if you were to supercharge that same amount in Washington, it would be ~$5.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by harikaried » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:05 am

Easy Rhino wrote:the Bolt has a level 3 fast charger as well, just different than tesla's.
To be clear, the level 3 fast charging on the Bolt is an additional $750 upgrade that charges at rates up to 50 kW. Motortrend says that it could charge "160 miles worth in 60 minutes, and a full 238 miles of range in about two hours." http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrole ... st-review/

So again using the 200 mile mid-trip recharge from Bay Area, the Bolt would take maybe 90 minutes to be ready to go the remaining distance to Los Angeles. A Tesla using a current 145 kW supercharger could recharge the 200 miles in less than 30 minutes.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Nate79 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:02 am

harikaried wrote:
Nate79 wrote:The Bolt is getting very positive reviews and will have 2+ years head start over the Model 3 not to mention the time to work thru the pre-orders.
Where are you getting these dates? The Bolt started regular production in November 2016 and began deliveries in December. You're saying the Model 3 won't have any deliveries until December 2018?

Tesla has said they expect to start volume production in the second half of this year with a supplier deadline of July 1st. Maybe they'll be late or maybe they'll be early, but if they start according to their current expectations, that's just half a year later than the Bolt, and yet you're saying a time delay of at least 4 times that amount.


Perhaps it will only be one year headstart but Tesla track record is pretty poor to bring a new model into production. GM has been in pilot production in early 2016 and has a well developed production capability. Even if Tesla does start pilot production in a few months and then mass production at the end of 2017 that assumes zero delays zero problems. Any delays and it reaches into 2018.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:20 am

Nate79 wrote:
harikaried wrote:
Nate79 wrote:The Bolt is getting very positive reviews and will have 2+ years head start over the Model 3 not to mention the time to work thru the pre-orders.
Where are you getting these dates? The Bolt started regular production in November 2016 and began deliveries in December. You're saying the Model 3 won't have any deliveries until December 2018?

Tesla has said they expect to start volume production in the second half of this year with a supplier deadline of July 1st. Maybe they'll be late or maybe they'll be early, but if they start according to their current expectations, that's just half a year later than the Bolt, and yet you're saying a time delay of at least 4 times that amount.


Perhaps it will only be one year headstart but Tesla track record is pretty poor to bring a new model into production. GM has been in pilot production in early 2016 and has a well developed production capability. Even if Tesla does start pilot production in a few months and then mass production at the end of 2017 that assumes zero delays zero problems. Any delays and it reaches into 2018.


None of this matters to the Op's friend as it was explicitly posted that no EV purchase for two years, so 2019. So my recommendation still stands - get a reservation on a Model 3 to have a place in line, and then either when your number is called or when you need/desire your purchase, look at all the available options. By 2019, it likely will be more than a choice between a Bolt or a Model 3.

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jazman12
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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by jazman12 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:33 am

Consider a used model X. There is no wait for availability

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by clutchied » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:17 am

squirm wrote:Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips. Two year time frame.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Superchargers work, are relatively fast, are rarely iced, and in many locations unlike public chargers. That alone i think is a huge advantage, without even going into the car specifics.


There is no reasonable method to take a road trip with any electric only car. The Tesla can make the cut but it does provide decent flow interruption which is either good or bad, you decide. 45 minute fueling trips every 2 - 2.5 hours.

The Bolt would not be viable unless you like standing around for 6 hours...

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by CLine » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:37 am

Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid) has 50+ mile all-electric range and nearly 400 mile total (gas+electric) range. So no range anxiety, proven, second-generation design, attractive pricing + tax incentives, available everywhere and right now. Just saying...

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by travellight » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:29 am

CLine wrote:Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid) has 50+ mile all-electric range and nearly 400 mile total (gas+electric) range. So no range anxiety, proven, second-generation design, attractive pricing + tax incentives, available everywhere and right now. Just saying...


Plus, you can drive in the HOV lane, right? What are the down sides to this?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by travellight » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:30 am

jazman12 wrote:Consider a used model X. There is no wait for availability


Why model X specifically? Why not the model S?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by TravelGeek » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:21 pm

travellight wrote:
CLine wrote:Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid) has 50+ mile all-electric range and nearly 400 mile total (gas+electric) range. So no range anxiety, proven, second-generation design, attractive pricing + tax incentives, available everywhere and right now. Just saying...


Plus, you can drive in the HOV lane, right? What are the down sides to this?


The answer is going to be different depending on people's use case.

For me, the Tesla and the Bolt have a range that could cover 90+% of my annual driving without the need for hunting for chargers (I would charge at home). For longer trips or winter driving we have a Forester.

If I got a Volt, I would buy (and pay) for flexibility that I don't really need, because its battery range is suffice for most trips. I would buy an internal combustion engine that needs to be acquired, maintained, and driven around even though I don't really need it.
Last edited by TravelGeek on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by randomguy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:35 pm

jazman12 wrote:Consider a used model X. There is no wait for availability


A used model X is going to be 2x the price of either the bolt or tesla. Even a well used S is probably 10-20k more (i.e. I am sure there is some early model with a zillion miles that costs less but most are 50k+ machines).

If you don't need a car for 2 years, the question is do you want to put your 1000 bucks towards a model 3 and then make a choice in 2 years. At that point you can drive both of them (and who knows how many other electric cars) and pick a favorite. Is that worth say 50 bucks or so (cost of letting tesla hold your money)? I said yes.

Some places like EVs and plugins in HOV lanes but my impression is that most places are phasing that out.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by randomguy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:44 pm

clutchied wrote:
squirm wrote:Neighbor is asking. 50 mile commute and will probably do some road trips. Two year time frame.
I'm suggesting Model 3, because of access to Superchargers.
Superchargers work, are relatively fast, are rarely iced, and in many locations unlike public chargers. That alone i think is a huge advantage, without even going into the car specifics.


There is no reasonable method to take a road trip with any electric only car. The Tesla can make the cut but it does provide decent flow interruption which is either good or bad, you decide. 45 minute fueling trips every 2 - 2.5 hours.

The Bolt would not be viable unless you like standing around for 6 hours...



200-270 mile range is more like 3-4 hours unless you are driving 80+mph. Charging locations can make you stop before that. Ranges do depend a lot on speed (i.e. range drops the faster you go. At 55mph the Tesla 85 can go over 300 mph. Up the speed to 75mph and the range drops to ~240) and conditions (i.e. cold is the big one).

How much of a pain it is going to depend a lot on your situation. If you need to go say 300 miles, it is fricken painful to have to stop so close. Have to go like 500miles and you are probably stopping anyway. Then it is more a question of how inconvenient the timing of that stop is.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:27 pm

Agree that putting down the $1K deposit for the Model 3 is pretty much a no brainer. I'd do it now while thinking it over.

As a Model S owner, and not really needing more than one car for my wife and me, I'm not sure I'll get a Model 3, but I might, so I put my deposit down. Our reasons for considering a Model 3:

  • My wife is kind of nervous driving (and parking) a $100K car around town. She has said she would be much more comfortable doing that in a $35K car.
  • I really don't want to be stuck driving an ICE vehicle if our Model S is in an accident and ends up in the shop for a few weeks, so it will be nice having a second Tesla.
  • Will be nice for the occasional times when we both need a car for separate trips.
  • Will be fun to experience whatever new technology is available when the M3 comes out.

No doubt this would be a total splurge, and we may not go ahead with it, but it's nice to have the option if we decide to do so.

Speaking of technology, not much mention has been made of autopilot. Does Bolt have this? Autopilot in the Tesla is a huge plus for me, and I would not want to go back to a car without it. I assume that the new version of Autopilot will be at least on par with the older version (which I have) by the time the Model 3 comes out, and possibly well advanced beyond it.

For us, taking road trips in the Model S is a joy. We've done three round trips from Bay Area to Oregon and one to the LA area, and our supercharging experiences have been positive. We don't like to drive more than two hours without a break, and one or two of those stops will be to eat, depending on the length of the trip. Charging is usually done before we're done eating. Some charging stops are as little as 20 minutes, during which we take a restroom break and go for a short walk.

You can add about 100 miles of rated range in 20 minutes if you are at a low enough state of charge and get an unpaired SC stall. On our trips SCs are spaced about 1.5 - 2 hours apart, so that works out perfectly for us.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by researcher » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:45 pm

Kevin M wrote:We don't like to drive more than two hours without a break.

On our trips SCs are spaced about 1.5 - 2 hours apart, so that works out perfectly for us.

This is so bizarre to me.

Prior to the Tesla, was it your preference to stop every 1.5 hours during a long road trip?
Or did you adapt your preferences to the car's limitations after purchasing the Tesla?

I don't know a single person who prefers to stop every 1.5-2 hours when on a road trip. Especially just to kill 20-45 minutes every time.
Last edited by researcher on Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by harikaried » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:59 pm

Kevin M wrote:My wife is kind of nervous driving (and parking) a $100K car around town.
Theoretically, your wife won't even need to park the Model 3 either as it could find parking itself. Or even better (? if you don't mind others riding in the vehicle), it can make money for you via the Tesla Network, so some people consider the Model 3 not as a depreciating asset.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by researcher » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:12 pm

Kevin M wrote:For us, taking road trips in the Model S is a joy. We've done three round trips from Bay Area to Oregon and one to the LA area, and our supercharging experiences have been positive.

One or two of those stops will be to eat, depending on the length of the trip. Charging is usually done before we're done eating. Some charging stops are as little as 20 minutes, during which we go for a short walk.

The desire to stop for a meal or a take a walk during a road trip is also interesting.

It looks like SuperCharger locations in Oregon have plenty of McDonalds/Taco Bell/Denny’s restaurants nearby, but very little else.
Surely these are not places you regularly want to eat at (for 45 minutes), but are forced to choose whatever is within walking distance.

You also mention taking quick walks.
Aside from dirty gas station and hotel parking lots, where exactly do you walk for 20-45 minutes?

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:15 pm

researcher wrote:
Kevin M wrote:We don't like to drive more than two hours without a break.

On our trips SCs are spaced about 1.5 - 2 hours apart, so that works out perfectly for us.

This is so bizarre to me.

Prior to the Tesla, was it your preference to stop every 1.5 hours during a long road trip?
Or did you adapt your preferences to the car's limitations after purchasing the Tesla?

I don't know a single person who prefers to stop every 1.5-2 hours when on a road trip. Especially just to kill 20-45 minutes every time.


Me in my Toyota 4Runner and in my older Toyota 4Runner prior to that. Ever since back in college falling asleep on a 3 hour drive and waking up in a ditch.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:18 pm

researcher wrote:
Kevin M wrote:For us, taking road trips in the Model S is a joy. We've done three round trips from Bay Area to Oregon and one to the LA area, and our supercharging experiences have been positive.

One or two of those stops will be to eat, depending on the length of the trip. Charging is usually done before we're done eating. Some charging stops are as little as 20 minutes, during which we go for a short walk.

The desire to stop for a meal or a take a walk during a road trip is also interesting.

It looks like SuperCharger locations in Oregon have plenty of McDonalds/Taco Bell/Denny’s restaurants nearby, but very little else.
Surely these are not places you regularly want to eat at (for 45 minutes), but are forced to choose whatever is within walking distance.

You also mention taking quick walks.
Aside from dirty gas station and hotel parking lots, where exactly do you walk for 20-45 minutes?


This will vary by location. The Burlington, NC Supercharger is in a mall parking lot with mall food. The Charlotte, NC Supercharger is in a shopping plaza with chinese food, deli food, ice cream shops, grocery store, convenience store, etc. The Port St. Lucie, FL Supercharger is in a LARGE shopping plaza with plenty of food options. So it definitely varies from place to place. For instance, West Palm Beach, FL Supercharger is at the Service Center with nothing around it - so bring your own food or enjoy their coffee and snacks.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by just frank » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:23 pm

Looks like the much awaited Nissan Leaf 'Gen 2' will be announced soon, as in March. Dealers are starting to get info, and leaking it.

Seems that there will be a 40 kWh and 60 kWh version, body styling looks like the current Murano, but in a mid-size, seats five hatchback sedan. QC is also supposed to be faster than the current 40 kW limit Chademo. And there are more Chademo's out there than CCS's for the Bolt.

In two years, you might be able to get those 2018 MY Leafs cheap used. They will likely be cheaper than the Bolt and the Model 3.

Be advised, there will likely be no Fed incentive on these cars in two years.

The answer to the OPs question....is unknowable today. The friend will research it and test drive all these cars and make a call.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:27 pm

researcher wrote:Prior to the Tesla, was it your preference to stop every 1.5 hours during a long road trip?

Yes, every 1.5-2 hours, both for restroom breaks and to stretch legs and backs, if not also to eat or grab coffee.

Also, before getting the Tesla we would fly to Oregon, but now we drive, since it is so enjoyable.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:43 pm

Kevin M wrote:
researcher wrote:Prior to the Tesla, was it your preference to stop every 1.5 hours during a long road trip?

Yes, every 1.5-2 hours, both for restroom breaks and to stretch legs and backs, if not also to eat or grab coffee.

Also, before getting the Tesla we would fly to Oregon, but now we drive, since it is so enjoyable.

Kevin


I'm a big fan of Tesla and especially of Musk, but that sounds like some rationalization. It would drive me absolutely bonkers to have to stop that often, and not just for 5min to fill up and possibly use the restroom.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:47 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Kevin M wrote:
researcher wrote:Prior to the Tesla, was it your preference to stop every 1.5 hours during a long road trip?

Yes, every 1.5-2 hours, both for restroom breaks and to stretch legs and backs, if not also to eat or grab coffee.

Also, before getting the Tesla we would fly to Oregon, but now we drive, since it is so enjoyable.

Kevin


I'm a big fan of Tesla and especially of Musk, but that sounds like some rationalization. It would drive me absolutely bonkers to have to stop that often, and not just for 5min to fill up and possibly use the restroom.


It isn't for everyone. Thankfully, we have choices if it isn't something you wish to do. I always did it, so I wouldn't call it a rationalization, but I know people who I've had to beg to stop so I can use the restroom otherwise they would just keep driving until the gas light turns on. That person would not be happy in an EV. Someone in the middle of those extremes might rationalize it and thus, should decide if it is worthwhile for them.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by inbox788 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:52 pm

just frank wrote:Looks like the much awaited Nissan Leaf 'Gen 2' will be announced soon, as in March. Dealers are starting to get info, and leaking it.

Seems that there will be a 40 kWh and 60 kWh version, body styling looks like the current Murano, but in a mid-size, seats five hatchback sedan. QC is also supposed to be faster than the current 40 kW limit Chademo. And there are more Chademo's out there than CCS's for the Bolt.

In two years, you might be able to get those 2018 MY Leafs cheap used. They will likely be cheaper than the Bolt and the Model 3.

Be advised, there will likely be no Fed incentive on these cars in two years.

The answer to the OPs question....is unknowable today. The friend will research it and test drive all these cars and make a call.


If those are true, the 60kWh battery should exceed 200 miles on a full charge (unless it gains a lot of additional weight over the Leaf).

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) official range for the 2016 model year Leaf with the 30 kWh battery is 172 km (107 miles) on a full battery charge, while the trim with the smaller 24 kWh battery is 135 km (84 miles), the same as the 2014/15 model year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Model 3 production is scheduled to begin in mid 2017.

https://www.tesla.com/support/model-3-reservations-faq

Tesla Model 3 delivery date moves to mid-2018 or later for new orders
Posted Oct 18, 2016

https://electrek.co/2017/01/05/gm-579-c ... t-ev-2016/

GM delivered 579 Chevy Bolt EVs in 2016

https://electrek.co/2017/01/05/gm-579-c ... t-ev-2016/

Unknown delivery date for new leafs, but probably a couple of years away. The thing to do is get the Bolt now and drive it for 2-3 years while waiting for the other options to decide if switching is worth it. A lease would give flexibility.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by Kevin M » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:24 pm

researcher wrote:It looks like SuperCharger locations in Oregon have plenty of McDonalds/Taco Bell/Denny’s restaurants nearby, but very little else.
Surely these are not places you regularly want to eat at (for 45 minutes), but are forced to choose whatever is within walking distance.

Heading north to Oregon, our first stop is in Vacaville, and we get more than enough charge in the time it takes to walk to and from Mel's Diner to grab a cup of coffee and use the restroom. Mel's diner has great breakfast and lunch food (packed during peak hours). This is our last stop on the way home, and we usually walk over to Tahoe Joe's for dinner. Pretty good food and beer.

Our next stop is Corning, and I'll admit this is our least favorite stop on this trip. There's a Starbucks next to the SC, so sometimes we head over there, grab coffee, and get on the laptop (and check in with Bogleheads, of course). There are a couple of pizza places and a Safeway within a few minutes walk. This is one stop we'd skip if we could, other than for a restroom break, but well worth it for the joy of driving a Tesla.

Next is Mt. Shasta. The restaurant/bar in the hotel right there is quite good, and there are plenty of other choices within walking distance, and walking around Mt. Shasta is quite enjoyable. Great views. Also a fine place to spend the night when we want to make it a leisurely trip.

The SC at Grant's Pass, OR is in the parking lot of a Black Bear Diner, which I really enjoy, both for breakfast and lunch food, and there's a good sandwich and pie shop a few blocks away that my wife likes.

There are a couple of good microbrewery/restauarants a short walk from the SC in Springield OR, which has been our final stop since our destination is Eugene. Now we have a house in Eugene with its own 240V/30A charger, so we will be skipping this SC stop from now on, even though it has a few good restaurant choices.

On a recent trip to Lake Tahoe (actually Truckee), we stopped at the SC in Rocklin, north of Sacramento, and the car got enough charge in the time it took us to walk to Panera Bread, have a decent breakfast sandwich, and walk back. The SC in Truckee is in the parking lot of a Safeway, so we grocery shopped for our stay there while the car was charging, and the timing was perfect. On the way home, we didn't charge again until Vacaville, where I had a delicious Reuben at Mel's Diner.

Heading south on 101, Atascadero is a nice stop, with plenty of decent restaurants to choose from while walking around the quaint town. The Oxnard SC, near Ventura, is in the parking lot of a huge mall, with many good restaurant choices.

If your objective is to drive long distances with minimal stops, an EV is not for you (yet), but the context of this discussion is choosing between two EVs: a Bolt and a Tesla. I don't know much about the Bolt, but from what I understand, a Tesla is a much better choice for road trips.

Oh, and there's been some hints from Elon that faster SCs are on the horizon, which could mean stops of maybe 5-10 minutes to get enough charge to get to the next SC. The technology is not stagnant. A few years ago people had to spend much more time charging on a road trip in a Tesla, and I suspect in a few years from now it will be even better than it is now.

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Re: Tesla Model 3 or Chevy Bolt?

Post by just frank » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:35 pm

inbox788 wrote:Unknown delivery date for new leafs, but probably a couple of years away. The thing to do is get the Bolt now and drive it for 2-3 years while waiting for the other options to decide if switching is worth it. A lease would give flexibility.


My description is for the 2018 MY Leafs, that will be available in the fall. IOW, I expect them to also beat the Model 3.

Nissan-Renault started shipping the similar Zoe in Europe with a 40 kWh battery a couple months ago, shortly after the announcement.

They are trying to minimize the amount of sales losses they incur between announcement and shipping. Nissan has been drawing down inventory in the US like nothing they have done before with the LEAF.

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