Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

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sunny_socal
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Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by sunny_socal »

Which 'badge' ends up costing the most? The goal is the determine which brand offers the best "bang for the buck."

For sake of argument, let's use look at brand new vs 3 years old (typical lease period.)

Examples:
- 2017 MB GL550 MSRP = 95k. Carmax price for 2014 = 52k. Delta = 43k, or 44%.
- 2017 MB E350 MSRP = 52k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 22k, or 42%.
- 2017 Lexus RX350 MSRP = 44k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 14k, or 31%.
- 2017 Lexus GS350 MSRP = 50k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 20k, or 40%
Erwin007
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Erwin007 »

sunny_socal wrote:Which 'badge' ends up costing the most? The goal is the determine which brand offers the best "bang for the buck."

For sake of argument, let's use look at brand new vs 3 years old (typical lease period.)

Examples:
- 2017 MB GL550 MSRP = 95k. Carmax price for 2014 = 52k. Delta = 43k, or 44%.
- 2017 MB E350 MSRP = 52k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 22k, or 42%.
- 2017 Lexus RX350 MSRP = 44k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 14k, or 31%.
- 2017 Lexus GS350 MSRP = 50k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 20k, or 40%
Your first paragraph asked two different questions. Found this on edmunds.com:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/bes ... -cars.html

Disclaimer: I own an Acura MDX, and my wife drives a Toyota Sienna.
Spirit Rider
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Spirit Rider »

There are two ways to look at this. What new car has the least depreciation when you go to sell or what used car has the lowest purchase price after the largest depreciation.

I am a contrarian Boglehead when it comes to used car purchases. I never consider a Toyota or Honda, because they have a used car premium disproportional to their reliability. Now, you don't want a make/model that depreciates because people know they are expensive to maintain.

However, there are some perfectly reliable vehicles that depreciate far more than is warranted because of popularity issues of make, model or even features. For example, buying a manual transmission in a used car can be a real bargain if you are going to keep it forever. The supply is usually limited, but they will tend to have a significantly higher depreciation than the same model with an automatic.
THY4373
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by THY4373 »

I would guess the US luxury brands would depreciate the most on average but I am also going to guess it varies a lot by model. I am with Spirit Rider I think many Japanese brands are totally overpriced in the used market. My last car purchase was a used 2010 Lincoln MKZ which is basically a glorified Ford Fusion. The 2010-2012 Fusions/MKZ/Milans had above average reliability. My exact car (I have the window sticker) retailed for $40k and I got it in the summer for 2015 for $11,500. I don't really consider it a luxury car and in fact was looking for a Ford Fusion but then realized an MKZ was cheaper than a fully loaded Fusion so I might as well go for the MKZ. I don't regret my purchase for one minute and the car has been rock solid.
btenny
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by btenny »

Yes Spirit you are right about manual transmissions being low cost used cars. My sister in law likes manuals. She also likes BMWs. She is now driving a 8 (?) year old 331i 6 speed manual with 30K miles on it. Her husband bought it two years ago with 25K miles for $20K or so. A real bargain. This is her second car like this. She had a 5xx back when that they bought for pennies and drove for years.

Good Luck.
btenny
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by btenny »

THY. Is your MKZ caught in the passenger side airbag recall? I ask because I have a 2006 Zephr (same as MKZ). It is caught in the airbag recall stuff with the passenger side airbag needing replacement. It has been under recall for a year now. The dealers have no idea when new airbag parts will be available. I really like the car. Mine has 83K miles on it and it runs great. I bought it used for $14K in 2008. It had 12K miles. It sold at retail new in 2006 for $30Kish. So a bargain at the time.

That is the trick for used cars. Find a bargain.
Good Luck.
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dm200
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by dm200 »

about manual transmissions being low cost used cars.
I just saw some online articles about the near disappearance of manual transmissions in the US. These articles noted the much lower prices for moost used manual transmissoon cars.

One article mentioned a real benefit of a manual transmission car: Most car thieves bypass them because they did not learn a manual.

Now into semi-retirement, and our driving miles way down - we still have 2 cars, but occasionally (when one is being repaired) get by with one. My wife refused to learn to drive a manual transmission. [She says "cannot" and "could not" learn]
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Tamales »

There's not much value in comparing base model price depreciation. You have to know the options. A $60k base model can reach $90k with options. Some options depreciate very fast, while others hold value better. Not many people buy luxury car base models, and luxury models have a huge range of costly additional options.

In any case, you might look at lease residual values after x years for a given make/model as a market estimate for expected depreciation of the base model.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by dm200 »

I never consider a Toyota or Honda, because they have a used car premium disproportional to their reliability.
1. How did you reach this conclusion about the "value" of the reliability premium?

2. In the case of the Toyota and Honda models that are big new car sellers (such as the Camry), might not the high number of these models cause a reduction in used car prices because of the large "supply"?

Until a little over a year ago, we never bought an older (much older) used car. In late 2015, we bought a 1998 Camry (LE model) from friends (paid them $3,000) and the car had just under 71,000 original miles and was in very good condition. It has worked out well. A few things broke over the last 16 months, but lower cost than car payments on newer car. Lower insurance costs and no personal property tax (newer car would have annual tax).
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by stan1 »

I'm even more contrarian. A car is a purchase not an investment. I assume a car has no value once I drive it off the lot. Whatever value it has when it comes time to get a new car is a reduction in price of a replacement car (less money I need to spend) since I always will need a car at least until I'm too old to pass a driving test or move to a location where a car is unnecessary. Keeps things simpler for me.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by inbox788 »

sunny_socal wrote:Which 'badge' ends up costing the most? The goal is the determine which brand offers the best "bang for the buck."

For sake of argument, let's use look at brand new vs 3 years old (typical lease period.)

Examples:
- 2017 MB GL550 MSRP = 95k. Carmax price for 2014 = 52k. Delta = 43k, or 44%.
- 2017 MB E350 MSRP = 52k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 22k, or 42%.
- 2017 Lexus RX350 MSRP = 44k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 14k, or 31%.
- 2017 Lexus GS350 MSRP = 50k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 20k, or 40%
IMO, MSRP is a poor indication of sales price or value. Carmax prices are a little better, but I think they represent the top of the range, and has wide variability on the same car (more at the top than the average). Still, if you wanted to use Carmax data, using newest model year compared to say a 4 year older car might be a fair gauge, and by then, the cars are mostly off the warranty. That means comparing 2016 vs 2012 in many cases. Again, the sparse data on the very new cars is likely to lead to less accurate and useful results. The value of any remaining warranty is also a factor among others.
randomguy
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by randomguy »

inbox788 wrote:
sunny_socal wrote:Which 'badge' ends up costing the most? The goal is the determine which brand offers the best "bang for the buck."

For sake of argument, let's use look at brand new vs 3 years old (typical lease period.)

Examples:
- 2017 MB GL550 MSRP = 95k. Carmax price for 2014 = 52k. Delta = 43k, or 44%.
- 2017 MB E350 MSRP = 52k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 22k, or 42%.
- 2017 Lexus RX350 MSRP = 44k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 14k, or 31%.
- 2017 Lexus GS350 MSRP = 50k. Carmax price 2014 = 30k. Delta = 20k, or 40%
IMO, MSRP is a poor indication of sales price or value. Carmax prices are a little better, but I think they represent the top of the range, and has wide variability on the same car (more at the top than the average). Still, if you wanted to use Carmax data, using newest model year compared to say a 4 year older car might be a fair gauge, and by then, the cars are mostly off the warranty. That means comparing 2016 vs 2012 in many cases. Again, the sparse data on the very new cars is likely to lead to less accurate and useful results. The value of any remaining warranty is also a factor among others.

Yep. For example, lets look at a BMW X3. MSRP 50k. Will be worth ~30k in 3 years. For your 40% deprecation. But the dealer sends me emails every month offer 4k-5k off MSRP. Now we are looking at 35% depreciation. For a wild nonluxury example look at some VW pricing. On a 31k Tiguan, I am seeing deals for 7k off. The book is going to call that 50% depreciation (used price versus MSRP) but when you are looking at cost to own, it is the sales price that matters.

In calculating bang for the buck, depreciation is small fraction of the costs. You need to add up all the running costs (gas, tires, maintenance, repairs,....). Those tend to be higher than the purchase price of the car. Edmunds true cost to own can give you some data to get started but you have to adjust to your situation.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by alfaspider »

btenny wrote:Yes Spirit you are right about manual transmissions being low cost used cars. My sister in law likes manuals. She also likes BMWs. She is now driving a 8 (?) year old 331i 6 speed manual with 30K miles on it. Her husband bought it two years ago with 25K miles for $20K or so. A real bargain. This is her second car like this. She had a 5xx back when that they bought for pennies and drove for years.

Good Luck.
Does not apply to sports cars. In some cases, the manual goes for much more than an auto. The Ferrari 430 is worth nearly double in manual on the used market.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Lindrobe »

I recently sold a 2013 Audi A5. I bought it new in 2013 for $40,000. I sold it in November, 2016 for $21,000. It only has 12,000 miles on it and it was a manual transmission. It was my last car splurge, cause I have since lost interest in having a prestige brand vehicle, but I was pretty disappointed by the drop in value that I saw in 3 years. The model hasn't even seen a change in body style. In researching some, I have read that the resale value of used German cars is lower due to the high maintenance and repair costs.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by dm200 »

Where depreciation of a car has relevance, I believe, is the case where a car is seriously damaged and there is an insurance company payout. You, normally, would get (if car totaled) a payoff related to the "book value".
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by c078342 »

about manual transmissions being low cost used cars.


I just saw some online articles about the near disappearance of manual transmissions in the US. These articles noted the much lower prices for most used manual transmisson cars.

One article mentioned a real benefit of a manual transmission car: Most car thieves bypass them because they did not learn a manual.

Now into semi-retirement, and our driving miles way down - we still have 2 cars, but occasionally (when one is being repaired) get by with one. My wife refused to learn to drive a manual transmission. [She says "cannot" and "could not" learn]
I fully support the car enthusiast magazines "Save the Manuals" campaign. My wife learned to drive a stick in the early '80's and insists on sticks to this day. (Our driveway, which sloped up, did have one patch of rubber from starting on a hill, which lasted about a year and was a standing joke for a long time.) Currently own a 6-speed A4, a 6-speed Porsche Boxster, and a dual clutch Porsche Macan (not available with a stick when we ordered it). I do have to say the dual clutch transmission is sweet though.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by n00b »

I'm not so sure about that manual transmission discount.

I prefer manual transmissions and always felt that they command a premium over their automatic counterparts.

Our difference in experience may be because I'm not afraid of a quality car with some miles on it so at that point the reliability of an automatic starts to be in question. It may also be because AZ is very rural and driving a manual isn't much work here.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. :sharebeer
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Alexa9 »

Germans depreciate the most. Japanese the least. Most likely due to repair/maintenance costs and reliability.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by bigred77 »

For the boglehead luxury car enthusiast (the German brands) it makes the most sense to buy 3 yrs old, maybe 30k miles, CPO. You can find almost 40% depreciation. (This is my adopted strategy)

For the boglehead utilitarian (the Japanese brands) it makes the most sense to buy new. The depreciation curve only accelerates significantly at the end of useful life.

For US brands, I'm not quite informed enough to offer an opinion.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Random Poster »

I thought that the answer would be "Range Rover."
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Random Poster wrote:I thought that the answer would be "Range Rover."
It would be except the "for sale" used Range Rover is at the shop being repaired.

Luxury brands may value autos over manuals but take any Subaru WRX with an auto and wonder why it's not selling until you drop it $5k below the manual versions.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by randomguy »

bigred77 wrote:For the boglehead luxury car enthusiast (the German brands) it makes the most sense to buy 3 yrs old, maybe 30k miles, CPO. You can find almost 40% depreciation. (This is my adopted strategy)

For the boglehead utilitarian (the Japanese brands) it makes the most sense to buy new. The depreciation curve only accelerates significantly at the end of useful life.

For US brands, I'm not quite informed enough to offer an opinion.
It is a minor difference for most models
2017 Audi a6: 53.5k cash price 30.6k
2017 Lexus G350 52.2k / 27.5k
2017 BMW 5 series /29.7k (note that this car comes with ~1k of free service)

You are talking ~10% (a couple thousand is likely in the realm of you ability to get a good deal when buying). There are a couple of ones with crazy first year depreciation. From memory the midsized Jaguar dropped like a rock.

Pretty much every depreciation curve I have seen is identical. First year is brutual (20-30%). The second year is about 10% of purchase price. But the 3rd year is about 90% of the 2nd. The third is 90% of the 2nd, and so on till it flattens out when the car is worth about 2k. There are some exceptions (I hope I am not misremember but the 4Runner is the winner)

Is CPO cheaper to own? A bit.Buying 2 CPO cars versus buying a new one (and an extended warranty for 2 years) and running it for 6 years is going to be a bit cheaper but you aren't talking 40%. You are talking 10-20% at best when you factor in higher maintenance costs and the like (you pay for 1 60k service with a new car. Buy a 36k CPO and your paying for 2. Same thing with tires and the rest).

Lexus wins out when you want to keep the car for 10+ years. I am willing to drive BMWs/Audis for 10 years/100k miles. I have had good luck with that. I am not willing to drive them to 200k. I have too many friends with stories:) YMMV.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by whodidntante »

My last two luxury cars were chosen because they depreciated the most out of the cars I found desirable. This was an advantage to me because I got a really nice car for little money.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by WhyNotUs »

My guess would be Land Rover, after three years they seem to drastically less. If you are married to a Land Rover/Range Rover mechanic they might even be a good deal.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by The Wizard »

Cadillac used to be a luxury car brand.
I'll bet they depreciate a fair amount if you trade in and buy a new one every three years...
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Nova1967 »

Alexa9 wrote:Germans depreciate the most. Japanese the least. Most likely due to repair/maintenance costs and reliability.
Not necessarily, Porsche holds it value, A few years ago I sold air cooled 1993 911 Porsche for 25K now they are going for 75K
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by alfaspider »

Nova1967 wrote:
Alexa9 wrote:Germans depreciate the most. Japanese the least. Most likely due to repair/maintenance costs and reliability.
Not necessarily, Porsche holds it value, A few years ago I sold air cooled 1993 911 Porsche for 25K now they are going for 75K
Air cooled Porsches are a bit of a special case. What you saw was early "classic" value rather than a slow depreciation curve. 911s generally depreciate fairly quick- a 3-year old 911 can be had for around 1/2 of new purchase price.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Sandtrap »

Historically: AFAIK, IMHO, YMMV: Exotic-Euro>Euro>American>Japanese (not including white elephants).
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by LawEgr1 »

THY4373 wrote:I would guess the US luxury brands would depreciate the most on average but I am also going to guess it varies a lot by model. I am with Spirit Rider I think many Japanese brands are totally overpriced in the used market. My last car purchase was a used 2010 Lincoln MKZ which is basically a glorified Ford Fusion. The 2010-2012 Fusions/MKZ/Milans had above average reliability. My exact car (I have the window sticker) retailed for $40k and I got it in the summer for 2015 for $11,500. I don't really consider it a luxury car and in fact was looking for a Ford Fusion but then realized an MKZ was cheaper than a fully loaded Fusion so I might as well go for the MKZ. I don't regret my purchase for one minute and the car has been rock solid.
I would second this based on my experience. My former car (2004 Base Cavalier, Manual Everything) was getting unsafe.

We ended up purchasing a non-CPO, 2014 Ford Taurus SEL, almost all options, 20.5k miles and 1.5 years of bumper to bumper warranty. Powertrain warranty still remains. Car about 1-1.5 years old at the time of purchase. I realize this isn't 'luxury' in the sense of this thread, but coming from the aforementioned car, anything with power windows was mind blowing to me.

I found US brands depreciated quite a bit, particularly the Taurus due to it's "aging" platform and Consumer Reports "perception" that the MFT interface isn't user friendly. Sometimes media works in your favor.

Anyway, we bought that car at $17,250 (non-OTD price) and it's been an absolutely tremendous value for the ride, tech features and trunk space. I also rent cars quite often for business (i.e. 20+ weeks a year) and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend US vehicles on a used car value basis...not sure if this is helpful, but thought I'd chime in based on experience.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by rguina »

whodidntante wrote:My last two luxury cars were chosen because they depreciated the most out of the cars I found desirable. This was an advantage to me because I got a really nice car for little money.
Well now you left us hanging. :)

Care to share?
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by yngdoc »

Tamales wrote:There's not much value in comparing base model price depreciation. You have to know the options. A $60k base model can reach $90k with options. Some options depreciate very fast, while others hold value better. Not many people buy luxury car base models, and luxury models have a huge range of costly additional options.

In any case, you might look at lease residual values after x years for a given make/model as a market estimate for expected depreciation of the base model.

A great point here. Very well said. I have nothing extra to add but wanted to quote and highlight this point to make sure it gets the proper frequency of eyes.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by whodidntante »

rguina wrote:
whodidntante wrote:My last two luxury cars were chosen because they depreciated the most out of the cars I found desirable. This was an advantage to me because I got a really nice car for little money.
Well now you left us hanging. :)

Care to share?
I went in with friends to start a business and at the same time moved three states away. Initially money was tight and for some reason this was the time I decided I wanted a harley. I had clients to haul around, so I needed a decent car. The solution was to buy a Lincoln Town Car from a private party. It didn't look like it had left a garage, but 52 $100 dollar bills was enough to bring it home. The death certificate of his mother was in the glove box, which I needed to title the car.

Next car was a Cadillac CTS that had been a corporate lease. The car was perfect, but it took me a month to negotiate the price. In the end I got it at the right price. Combined I put 300,000 miles on two very nice cars, for just a little money.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by rguina »

whodidntante wrote:
rguina wrote:
whodidntante wrote:My last two luxury cars were chosen because they depreciated the most out of the cars I found desirable. This was an advantage to me because I got a really nice car for little money.
Well now you left us hanging. :)

Care to share?
I went in with friends to start a business and at the same time moved three states away. Initially money was tight and for some reason this was the time I decided I wanted a harley. I had clients to haul around, so I needed a decent car. The solution was to buy a Lincoln Town Car from a private party. It didn't look like it had left a garage, but 52 $100 dollar bills was enough to bring it home. The death certificate of his mother was in the glove box, which I needed to title the car.

Next car was a Cadillac CTS that had been a corporate lease. The car was perfect, but it took me a month to negotiate the price. In the end I got it at the right price. Combined I put 300,000 miles on two very nice cars, for just a little money.
I've always liked the Cadillac CTS. My last car purchase was a Honda Odyssey. Last car before that was a Mazda 3. I wasn't in a financial position to buy luxury.

The Mazda is now 11 years old and I'm in a better financial position to replace it with something nicer. So I'm keeping my eyes open for value.

I'll keep Lincoln and Cadillac in mind. Thanks.

Edit: spelling
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by tim1999 »

My dad is looking at a 2014 Mercedes E350, 24k miles, CPO car. Original MSRP was $62k and change. Dealer is asking $33k, comes with the balance of the factory warranty and additional CPO warranty after that. The car is in mint condition. That's a good deal in my book, especially if you can beat the dealer down more towards $30k.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by sunny_socal »

tim1999 wrote:My dad is looking at a 2014 Mercedes E350, 24k miles, CPO car. Original MSRP was $62k and change. Dealer is asking $33k, comes with the balance of the factory warranty and additional CPO warranty after that. The car is in mint condition. That's a good deal in my book, especially if you can beat the dealer down more towards $30k.


Great deal! :beer
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Alexa9 »

tim1999 wrote:My dad is looking at a 2014 Mercedes E350, 24k miles, CPO car. Original MSRP was $62k and change. Dealer is asking $33k, comes with the balance of the factory warranty and additional CPO warranty after that. The car is in mint condition. That's a good deal in my book, especially if you can beat the dealer down more towards $30k.
I have seen this too at the local Mercedes dealer. Buying used makes a lot more sense if you don't need the new car smell (which is reportedly bad for you). If you can find one from a private party you will get an even better deal although it won't be a CPO. This makes buying a brand new non-luxury vehicle vs a lightly used luxury vehicle somewhat of a dilemma.
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by sunny_socal »

Alexa9 wrote: I have seen this too at the local Mercedes dealer. Buying used makes a lot more sense if you don't need the new car smell (which is reportedly bad for you). If you can find one from a private party you will get an even better deal although it won't be a CPO. This makes buying a brand new non-luxury vehicle vs a lightly used luxury vehicle somewhat of a dilemma.
Dilemma indeed. I bought a brand new Accord and I'm confident I'll pay little in maintenance beyond wear items (tires, brakes, filters, oil changes.) The Accord is quieter than my last ride (Honda Fit) but once you've tried something better it's hard to go back :annoyed The Accord does _not_ feel as nice as my MIL's MB! But - I've seen her visit the dealer frequently for little items like broken locks and window actuators, it's $500 to even talk to someone at her dealership! :shock:
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Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

tim1999 wrote:My dad is looking at a 2014 Mercedes E350, 24k miles, CPO car. Original MSRP was $62k and change. Dealer is asking $33k, comes with the balance of the factory warranty and additional CPO warranty after that. The car is in mint condition. That's a good deal in my book, especially if you can beat the dealer down more towards $30k.
I'm pretty amazed at this. I just looked at my local Mercedes website and filtered for CPO E350s. Indeed, I can have my choice at right around $35k asking. That's a lot of car for less than the price of a base model CLA250.
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Nova1967
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Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Which luxury auto brand depreciates the most?

Post by Nova1967 »

alfaspider wrote:
Nova1967 wrote:
Alexa9 wrote:Germans depreciate the most. Japanese the least. Most likely due to repair/maintenance costs and reliability.
Not necessarily, Porsche holds it value, A few years ago I sold air cooled 1993 911 Porsche for 25K now they are going for 75K
Air cooled Porsches are a bit of a special case. What you saw was early "classic" value rather than a slow depreciation curve. 911s generally depreciate fairly quick- a 3-year old 911 can be had for around 1/2 of new purchase price.
I disagree with that assessment, A 10 year old 911 in good condition will sell for more than half its value, The Cayman and the Boxter depreciate at a much higher rate than the 911.
Porsche generally holds its value more than other German cars. Everyone seems to have a BMW or Mercedes and they longer hold the prestige factor that they experienced in the 80s.
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