Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

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friar1610
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Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by friar1610 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:07 pm

I currently drive a 2005 Volvo XC-70 wagon. I'm starting to think about replacing it, perhaps after getting it through one more MA winter. Although I've had 3 Volvos over the years, they've priced themselves out of my market and I'm looking at alternatives that would also have AWD, be good for hauling kayaks, be more of a car than an SUV and cost no more than $35K or so. Although I haven't test-driven one yet, Subaru Outbdacks look like they might fit the bill. When I recently had my Volvo in for servicing, I asked the guy at the shop (not a Volvo dealer) what experience they've had with them repair-wise. He said they're as reliable as Toyotas and Hondas for the first 100K miles or so and then begin to need quite a few more repairs than the other 2. Just wondering if there are any Outback owners here and what their experience is with repairs and reliability.

I'm 71 and although I'm fit and healthy at the moment, 100K miles could be more than I'll ever need. :annoyed

Thank you.
Friar1610

flyingbison
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by flyingbison » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:20 pm

I have a 2013 Outback and like it quite a bit for my needs.

An Outback will probably be louder, clunkier, and rougher than your Volvos (never drove one, so I am speculating about that).

You mentioned hauling kayaks, so I will caution you that a lot of paddlers do not like the limitations of the Outback's integrated cross rails. They work fine for me, hauling canoes, but I never carry more than one at a time. If you require a strong and versatile rack system, then you might consider the Forester, instead of the Outback.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by RudyS » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:22 pm

Congrats on 71! I'm 80 and doing well too. About the cars: I'm on my third Subaru Outback. First was 1998. Served me very well, traded it when mileage got to 100K and I didn't want to spring for the timing belt and a lot of other stuff coming due. Got a 2008. Also did well for me. In 2015 I gave it to my daughter for her family to use - they needed another car due to kids getting older and driving. By then I really wanted to get the driver aids on the newer car: rear vision camera, rear cross traffic alert, auto braking, Eyesight alerts, blind spot alerts. So when my daughter suggested that she'd like the "old" Subbie when I was ready to "trade" it, I jumped at the chance. The 2015 is going well. I love the 4 wheel drive for when we do our meals-on-wheels route in the county. Minimal repair issues on any of them. I considered the Forester, but it didn't have as many of the driver aids, and the salesman told me it would ride a bit coarser then the Outback, because the Forester is on a SUV chassis, and the Outback is actually a station wagon.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Twood » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:24 pm

After the 2009 model year, the vehicle got taller, which equates to a taller roof. And the Yakima roof-rack set for these model years is also tall. This means that even though I'm not short, and neither is DH, in order to load boats on our roof racks we use step stools. Collapsible ones that we then carry in the trunk with us to destination in order to unload/re-load. Very inconvenient. That said, in a station wagon-ish body, there aren't a lot of options, and we went with it anyway. If you paddle playboats (eg very short) and aren't bringing passengers, you can fit a short boat in the tail end by folding down the back seats. I keep a much shorter sedan for self-loading smaller trips, although then I make other compromises obviously (AWD, cargo room, passenger room). We haven't approached the 100k mark yet and so far the vehicle has done very well, although another in my family (2003 model) had very typical for the model head gasket problems at ~150k(?). The head gasket issue was generally known, last I'd heard there hadn't been enough road miles on enough newer models to figure out if that problem had been resolved with newer models. I haven't looked at the Consumer Reports car guide for anticipated longevity/10 year cost to own recently, that may be worthwhile to do.

If you're looking to buy a new Outback in 6 months or more, consider joining the American Canoe Association for their negotiated pricing on new models.

galectin
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by galectin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:26 pm

My son bought an Outback about 1.5 years ago and he likes it. I have driven it and liked it, and will probably buy one when I have to buy a new car.

While some older Subaru models have had oil consumption problems, he has not had any issues with this, or anything else.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Levett » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:32 pm

74 yo here. Driving a 2016 Subie Outback, Splendid auto.

Here is Dan Neil's take (the Outback is "the hero of the reasonable").

http://www.wsj.com/articles/2017-subaru ... 1475176491

Lev

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tcassette
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by tcassette » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:53 pm

I have a 2007 Outback with the 6-cylinder engine. It has been very reliable, with no engine/drivetrain issues aside from leaking front CV joint boots. I chose the 6 over the 4 cylinder because of the the extra power and small difference from the fuel economy of the 4. The current Outbacks are larger, but mine is certainly adequate in size; apart from cargo space, I think the new Impreza line is about the same size inside and out as my Outback. You may want to compare the 2017 Impreza with the Outback since it is an all new design and a bit larger than the 2016 Impreza. That said, it is a new design and many folks like to wait until at least the second year of a model cycle. I believe the current Outback model cycle started in 2015.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by patngordo » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:58 pm

I got a '16 Ouback in April, only have about 12,000 miles on it. I would have gotten another CX-5 (great driving machine for the money) but I couldn't get 3 kid seats across the back seat in the CX-5. So I got the Outback, and I like it fine. Got the small engine, it cruises fine at 80. Love the adaptive cruise control and lanekeeper, but I guess most new cars have that now. It's a good $30,000-ish car. I dont use the roof rack, but I have heard people complain about it on the Outback forum http://www.subaruoutback.org

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by btenny » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:14 pm

I have the 2013 Outback Limited with the H6 engine and the 5 speed auto transmission. So no CVT issues or 4 cylinder engine problems. I think it is a great car with a good engine that accelerates great even going up hill. It has a standard auto transmission so it can be up shifted and down shifted as needed going up hill or downhill in the mountains. But it does ride sort of stiff versus luxury cars. I got mine without the Eyesight system and fancy cruise control or lane departure stuff for improved reliability and limited electronic system bugs to go wrong. It is a simple car with proven components and high ground clearance and good AWD. Plus it offers great trade-in value if you decide to change to another car at a later date. I was offered $22K cash for mine at 3.5 years old. I only paid $30K for it new. So far reliability has been great. I have 32K miles on mine without a repair.

Good Luck.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by jasper » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:34 pm

I have the 2015. Love it. I got the 6 cylinder as in CO I was worried about powering up steep mountains at altitude. On flat terrain you definitely don't need the 6 cylinder

I have a hitch rack for bikes and a ski box for the top. Works great. Lots of interior space

No experience hauling kayaks but sure seems to be a lot of them out here doing just this

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:53 pm

We've had an 02, 08 and now my father in law's 04 Outback. We also have a 13 Crosstrek. To me, the post 09 outback got too big, so we backtracked to the Crosstrek which is really a raised Impreza. We use the Subaru crossbars with the inexpensive kayak carriers for 2 kayaks on the Crosstrek with no issue at all. (can't remember the name, they were the cheapest thing at Dick's).

Subarus have AWD systems that tend to be superior to other cars. Audi also does (different system entirely, but works extremely well). Of course, run snow tires since that's what touches the road.

We've yet to keep any of our Subarus to the point where they need a timing belt, but with today's engines, with the exception of the STi, they now all use chains anyways.
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by goodlifer » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:04 pm

I have a 2015. I honestly wish that I could go back in time and cancel the order. I hate it. I have had it in the dealership 10 times so far and except for the 2 recalls, they can't fix any of the problems. The tech is glitchy and they don't know how to fix it. The X mode comes on at random times, which shuts off all of the Eyesight features and sometimes the car. It shut itself off twice on a major highway and could have caused major accidents each time. Everything that made me buy this car over any others simply does not work as intended. That, and the paint is paper thin and scratches if you look at it. I would hope that the 2017 models are improved.

We have kayaks. We have gone on short trips with 2 yaks on the roof rails and it was ok. We made a custom kayak/bike trailer to fit the 4 yaks and bikes we own. It can handle hauling pretty well for its size. I traded in a minivan for the Outback, and I still can't get over the lack of personal space and crappy sound system. I paid extra for the upgraded speakers, too. It also feels like I'm driving a go kart. I tried the 6 cylinder and it just felt like a faster go kart. I have decided to just stick with this until I can find an SUV I like.

Before you decide, spend some time reading the Outback forums and research the dealership as well as the car. I think I would have enjoyed the car much more if I purchased from a better dealership.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by surfstar » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:11 pm

For hauling kayaks, how helpful is a lower roof height?

Maybe look into a Golf Sportwagen 4motion or Golf Alltrack.
I have a non-AWD Sportwagen and it has been great.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by dbr » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:12 pm

Happy with my 2015. I landed with the Outback after getting frustrated how hard it is to see out of current sedans. Discovered I liked everything else including just right step-in height. I like all the driver aids (Eyesight etc.). The H4 has plenty of power except maybe for towing at high altitudes. Some people find the seating uncomfortable. For me it is just right provided one makes a correct adjustment on multiway power seats. We rejected the Forrester on the basis of more noise and less smooth ride. The Outback is quiet enough and smooth enough for comfortable long distance driving. High clearance is good, especially in deeper snow. I checked out the Volvo wagon and couldn't find any justification for the higher cost, though it seemed a nice car. I am sure the reliability picture can never be clear soon enough to provide any advice. We have had no problems except occasional check engine light for no reason that clears in a day or two. Someday I am going to force the dealer to figure it out. No issues with oil-burning, windscreen noise, etc. I am seeing this vehicle in its current incarnation to be as near ideal for me as any choice out there.

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TxAg
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by TxAg » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:53 pm

We've had a 2017 since July. We really like it so far

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by lobon » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:17 am

We have a 2015 we are preparing to get rid of. We have also had a series of repair visits apart from recalls, though thankfully none so serious as a prior poster's 2015. We had multiple wheel bearings fail prematurely. The most recent problem was a trunk strut failure where every time you opened it the trunk would proceed to slowly shut of its own accord and you couldn't stop it from closing with any of the controls or the backup safety protocol. It was out of warranty due to miles but after some complaining they fixed it as "goodwill".

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by friar1610 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:16 am

Thanks very much to those who responded. Really sounds like a mixed bag with such extremes of experience. Maybe I'll just try to coax a few more years out of the Volvo. Spent $1K on a repair late summer with the commitment to myself that this would mean keeping it for another year - maybe I should keep it longer. It's got about 140K miles and those days I drive it about 7,500 miles a year.
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simplesimon
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by simplesimon » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:01 am

I have a 2008 model and have put about $1k/yr into repairs and maintenance since I bought it four years ago. The biggest items were wheel bearings and a torn axle boot (darn potholes all over the place...never had this problem when I lived in California!)

Overall I'm content with the purchase. It fits my needs (size, AWD, overall utility) and I don't believe the alternatives are much cheaper.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by GreenGrowTheDollars » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:32 am

Mine is an oldie (2000) -- but even with two newer cars in the driveway, the Outback is the one we choose when the weather is nasty. It feels more under control than any other car I've driven in snowy conditions.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by dbr » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:46 am

friar1610 wrote:Thanks very much to those who responded. Really sounds like a mixed bag with such extremes of experience. Maybe I'll just try to coax a few more years out of the Volvo. Spent $1K on a repair late summer with the commitment to myself that this would mean keeping it for another year - maybe I should keep it longer. It's got about 140K miles and those days I drive it about 7,500 miles a year.
Asking about reliability on a generic forum like this is probably going to generate some extremes and is not a valid sample for predicting anything about what you might experience if you buy any given new model car. I'm not sure there is any way to predict the reliability of a current new vehicle other than to look at general statistics gathered from large data sets and try to find differences. It might be Lexus is a known good bet and Chrysler/Jeep a bad bet, but it is hard to go beyond that. Even then many people with bad bets will have good experiences and some people with good bets will not. After that, I don't think there is anything to see. Some bad experiences with vehicles are all about the dealer rather than the car, and there is probably not even uniform predictability about dealers by brand, though one "hears" good things about Lexus and maybe some others. In my area Ford dealers seem to be bad, but that proves nothing.

Comments about features are probably helpful. Performance and comfort are already such personal issues that one learns more by trying out the vehicles than one will learn from other people's opinions.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Nicolas » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:51 am

We own a 2006 4-cylinder Outback which we bought used in 2010 at 32,000 miles, it's now at 98,000 miles. We paid about $17.5K for it. We've had two major expenses in that time. Several years ago we replaced all four tires and brakes which can be expected given the age of the car. Just yesterday we had to replace two wheel bearings at a total cost of $787. We've been happy with the car and will likely trade it in on another (used) Outback in the Spring. I'm leaning toward a 6-cylinder if I can find one as I'm going to be hauling a camper up and down mountains.
Last edited by Nicolas on Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dziuniek
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by dziuniek » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:19 am

2013 outback here.

The transmission went kaput at 40k-ish miles. Covered under warranty, but if it was 10k miles later, that's like 7 grand at the dealer....
Can't really recommend the car for that reason alone.
It also burns a bit of oil.

Otherwise we like the car. I can't recommend it however based on our experience.

It's the car that's going in for a trade when we have another baby.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Daisy Dog » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:22 am

I would like to piggyback on to your post, as I just received two quotes on a couple of Subaru Outbacks. Why a Subaru? My son in law has a Subaru company car and he says it's the best car (in a relatively affordable price range) he's ever had. He says all of his co-workers in the pharmaceutical firm he works for are unanimous in their praise as well.

As for me - here's what I was quoted:

2016 Outback 2.5 Ltd. Never off the lot. Had hail damage that would take better eyes than mine to see where it was. It's a metallic bright blue - not my fav color - but the car is "loaded." Offered to me at $29,288 (includes destination fee) plus $489 for the dealer - total $29,777. This doesn't include sales tax.

2017 Outback 2.5i Premium, with the eyesight driver assist technology. White which I really like. The out the door price is $27, 921 that includes the annoying $489 dealer markup thing and no sales tax. This model has cloth seats, and that is fine.

I currently have a 2015 Honda Fit I'd like to keep and a 2010 Honda Pilot that my daughter has been driving (I've been paying insurance and licensing) and they have 2 boys in private colleges and one who is a sophomore in high school. So there we go. I'll sign it over to her.

Oh, the reason for two cars? I keep one in Florida (the Fit) and one in Colorado where I go every 3 months and the Subaru would replace the Pilot.

Thanks for any comments on the prices I was quoted.

Daisy Dog

Levett
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Levett » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:04 pm

Daisy,

Have you run the specs for both Subarus through the TrueCar website to get an estimate of local pricing?

Also, do you belong to Costco? A friend who is a Costco member recently bought a Subaru through their car service. He was quite pleased with the final price.

Lev

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by btenny » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:20 pm

Daisy.

If you like the white 2017 model I would go with that car. Maybe do more negotiating at this dealer and email a few other dealers for quotes for a car like this one. The key is 2017 Premium model with eyesight. I bet you can get that car for $26K or so if you negotiate more.

As far as the 2016 model I would be very careful. That car has hail damage so it has issues and maybe some title restrictions or have limited warranty. Plus you don't like the color and do like cloth seats. So why pay more money for older car to get the upgraded leather? So IMO don't spend any time negotiating for this car.

Good Luck.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by btenny » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:34 pm

DZI.

Was the 2013 Outback transmission that failed a CVT? Since you say the engine burns oil I am guessing it has the H4 engine with the CVT. Correct? This configuration is exactly what lots of people had trouble with in 2013 models. That engine variation was new in 2013. Likewise lots of cars have trouble with CVT transmissions. The things are just prone to fail in AWD cars with higher horsepower engines. Nissan Muranos AWDs have the worst CVTs but other brands of cars have issues as well.

I suggest you trade that car before it gets much older. You may be in for more CVT and engine problems as the car gets older. Some car models are just not very reliable.

Good Luck.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Admiral » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:04 pm

I am Internet shopping the Outback and the Mazda CX-5 and CX-7 (that's an outlier but you never know). Plan a test drive soon. Thanks for this post!

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Purpose311 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:11 pm

My first car was a 2004 Toyota Tacoma 4 door. Sold that to a good friend almost 2 years ago. Wanted to get a more family friendly car and have always liked Subarus. Found a 2012 at a local used car lot with 18,000 miles for $22k. It is a 2012 2.5i limited. I love the size, fuel economy and handling. The 4 cylinder engine leaves a LOT to be desired but I think the CVT greatly improves that aspect. I was flip flopping between the H4 and H6 and decided on the 4 because I drive slow and wanted the better fuel economy. I researched like crazy before buying my 2012. I knew that the 2013 Outback was the first year of the new FB motor, but risked that by 2012 the head gasket issue was solved on the EJ engine. I knew going in that it would have a higher maintenance cost with having to replace a belt versus a chain in the new model. I think Subarus offer a great bang for the buck and I love that they are safe.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by SamB » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:12 pm

I am 69 and have owned a 1995 Subaru Legacy L wagon (AWD). This car preceded the Outback. It is an AWD wagon, but has a slightly lower center of gravity, and is slightly smaller than the Outback. It is interesting that the Outback actually has a smaller hatch opening than my old Legacy L.

My wagon has 169K miles on it, and the extra expense was associated with engine seals (they leak) and wheel bearings. The wheel bearings will cost more to replace because of the AWD. I am assuming that Subaru is better about leaking seals after 21 years. The Outback has a timing chain, not a belt which had to be replaced three times on the Legacy L. I put in a new clutch, but an automatic may not have had any problem other than fluid changes.

The Subaru is my favorite car because of the lower center of gravity and the AWD, not to mention the fact that I can fit all sorts of things in it. There is never a problem getting stuck in snow unless you drive into a drift. AWD is twice the drive train, so that is probably where the additional cost is going to go.

I would buy an Outback as a replacement because of the functionality. The cost fortunately is not an issue for me. At this point if it breaks I just pay my local shop to fix it.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by opus360 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:47 pm

friar1610 wrote: Although I've had 3 Volvos over the years, they've priced themselves out of my market and I'm looking at alternatives that would also have AWD, be good for hauling kayaks, be more of a car than an SUV and cost no more than $35K or so.
My relative has the Outback. It is a fine car and others have noted their experience. But, let me give you an out of the box idea...a minivan. Toyota make them in AWD. With minivans, you don't need roof rack to haul kayaks, as they will fit inside the minivans. Just put some rugs around your minivan. It will save you time and effort of getting kayaks up the roof.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:36 pm

2010 Outback owner here, bought it new - 2.5 Premium 4 cylinder with CVT. Other than standard maintenance for a set of new tires brakes, battery replacement, wipers, oil changes and one quart of oil added at around 36K miles, the car has not required anything extra and we are nearing 85K knock wood. I do expect per the manual to perform timing belt change at 100K along with tune-up and possibly change the serpentine belt. My independent mechanic doesn't like my car because other than oil changes he's not getting enough business. :twisted: It's a reliable car, the traction control and ABS saved my family's bacon last year on a patch of highway road that iced over in quick time. I'm glad I bought the Outback.
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by MrsRoos » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:18 pm

I own a 2007 Subaru outback. Bought it used in 2009 at ~37k miles and it is about 136k miles currently. This is our main family car - we've taken it on a lot of family road trips, (off-road) camping trips, snow trips. The biggest expense I've had to pay for is for the leaky head gasket (a known problem for Subaru 2010 models or older) and I had this repaired at the same time with swapping out the timing belt. Cost of repair was ~ $3,700. It definitely hurt the wallet but I intend to drive this car until it decides to die. Other repairs were fairly minor in comparison - CV boot joint, battery, tires etc. I will likely purchase another Subaru Outback, only if they stop making them bigger every year.
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by powermega » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:43 pm

I've owned two Outbacks over the last 20 years. Very reliable cars, and there is nothing I would rather drive on bad road conditions. I got about 170k miles from my first Outback, and have 125k miles on my current '08 Outback. You could look at the Forrester too.
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by saltycaper » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:48 pm

Been thinking about when to get rid of my Outback since the day I got it. Okay, maybe since the day after I got it. But, I'd probably just buy another Outback. :?
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:37 pm

MrsRoos wrote:I own a 2007 Subaru outback. Bought it used in 2009 at ~37k miles and it is about 136k miles currently. This is our main family car - we've taken it on a lot of family road trips, (off-road) camping trips, snow trips. The biggest expense I've had to pay for is for the leaky head gasket (a known problem for Subaru 2010 models or older) and I had this repaired at the same time with swapping out the timing belt. Cost of repair was ~ $3,700. It definitely hurt the wallet but I intend to drive this car until it decides to die. Other repairs were fairly minor in comparison - CV boot joint, battery, tires etc. I will likely purchase another Subaru Outback, only if they stop making them bigger every year.
Source? Subaru changed the gasket type used in the 2010 model, it was the 2009 and older models that had known problems with consistency. Not to say there will never be a problem with the 2010 model, only the level of incidences reported thus far has been lower than older models.
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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by chw » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:16 pm

2016 Premium owner(4 cyl) with the Eyesight package here. Bought 1.5 years ago (I'm in MA as well), and love the vehicle for its solid ride, roomy interior, fuel economy (avg 30 mpg city/highway), and versatility- have a Hitch for bikes, and have had 2 kayaks on roof no issue. We also own a 2012 CRV- I would say the Outback drives more like a premium vehicle than the CRV, is roomier (10 inches longer, and 2 inches wider), and has more options standard than the CRV.

Big fan of the Eyesight technology- prevented a major head on with a distracted driver last year. Auto braking assisted in preventing a last second collision with inches to spare :happy.

One warning- do not use the strap type bike hitches that attach to the rear hatch. A friend used one on his 16 Outback, and discovered a small dent in the hatch panel around the license plate that was caused by the weight of the bikes (only 2 on it at the time).

PM me if want name of dealer went to/pricing.

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Re: Subaru Outbacks - any owners here?

Post by MrsRoos » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:50 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Source? Subaru changed the gasket type used in the 2010 model, it was the 2009 and older models that had known problems with consistency. Not to say there will never be a problem with the 2010 model, only the level of incidences reported thus far has been lower than older models.
It was something that I had read in several articles while researching about my HG, but you're probably right.
“Anyone who believes in indefinite growth in anything physical, on a physically finite planet, is either mad or an economist.” - Kenneth Boulding

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