Where do you buy coffee beans?

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Morik
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Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Morik »

I just recently got a coffeemaker (prior to this I would drink coke zero in the morning, but am trying to get off soda).
I have a grinder and have been buying whole beans.
So far I've tried Amazon (found some really good beans, not too pricey), and Whole Foods. Whole Foods beans were ok; I felt the Valhala Java I found on Amazon was better.

Are there any other places I should check out for buying whole coffee beans?
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

You might have a local roaster. I buy mine from a store down the block.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

www.coffeeam.com

If you are willing to buy in 5 pounds size, you can get a very good deal from this place.

KlangFool
nordsteve
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by nordsteve »

Seattle Coffee Gear has a nice selection. I often go there when I'm in Seattle.

Locally, I buy from Spyhouse Coffee.
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Morik
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Morik »

TomatoTomahto wrote:You might have a local roaster. I buy mine from a store down the block.
I live in suburbs of Boston, which makes me think there must be lots of local roasters around. (If not in my suburb, certainly somewhere around Boston.)

Any particular way to discover them and see what others think of them? (Yelp?)
KlangFool wrote:OP,

http://www.coffeeam.com

If you are willing to buy in 5 pounds size, you can get a very good deal from this place.

KlangFool
Thanks, they look like they have some good stuff. Their 5 lb bags are indeed well priced. Looks like I'd need 15 lbs at a time to get free shipping. (Well, 10 lbs right now due to their current shipping promotion.)
I'll definitely give them a shot.
KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

Morik wrote:
KlangFool wrote:OP,

http://www.coffeeam.com

If you are willing to buy in 5 pounds size, you can get a very good deal from this place.

KlangFool
Thanks, they look like they have some good stuff. Their 5 lb bags are indeed well priced. Looks like I'd need 15 lbs at a time to get free shipping. (Well, 10 lbs right now due to their current shipping promotion.)
I'll definitely give them a shot.
OP,

<< Discounted Shipping Rates. All of our coffees, gift sets and most of out teas are shipped at discounted shipping rates. These items ship free on orders over $50 and at a low flat-rate of $5.95 on smaller orders. At these low rates, why not ship directly to the recipients of your specially selected coffee gifts. Qualifying conditions may apply. >>

1) Unless you consume a lot more than 5 pounds per month, I would rather pay the $5.95 shipping and get the coffee fresher. They roasted their coffee fresh every week.

2) You get free shipping for order over $50. After 5 pounds of coffee, just spend another $5 to $10 to get free shipping.

KlangFool
user5027
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by user5027 »

Currently I buy Eight O'Clock whole beans at my local Acme Markets for my Cuisinart Grind & Brew.

Years ago I use to roast beans. I usually got the green beans from Sweet Maria's online.

I still occasionally use my burr grinder and espresso maker.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Coming from Coke Zero must be a shock to your taste buds, but following on to what Klang Fool suggested, you probably want fresh roasted beans. I have a container I got from Amazon that holds the beans, but they don't last too long anyway in my house. I dont store more than a 2-week supply.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
lazydavid
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by lazydavid »

KlangFool wrote:1) Unless you consume a lot more than 5 pounds per month, I would rather pay the $5.95 shipping and get the coffee fresher. They roasted their coffee fresh every week.
I'll second (edit: third) this. In coffee, there is the so-called "rule of 15s". It states that coffee must be:

--Roasted within 15 months of harvest
--Ground within 15 days of roasting
--Brewed within 15 minutes of grinding

Or it is stale. If you care about the taste of your coffee, you want it to be as fresh as practical. Buying 3 months worth of roasted beans to save a couple of bucks on shipping is a false economy.
Last edited by lazydavid on Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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simplesimon
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by simplesimon »

Do you have a Costco by you?
jeff1949
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by jeff1949 »

Costco. San Francisco Bay French Roast specifically but they have a nice selection:

http://www.costco.com/CatalogSearch?key ... ageSize=96
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JDCarpenter
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by JDCarpenter »

DW buys roasted Costa Rican beans from Cafe Britt's online store for her espresso machine via burr grinder. Buys 10 or 12 bags (or so?) each fall and puts all but one into freezer bags and freezer without grinding; when bag is finished, she pulls another out.

Seems to work well for her--and she's fairly picky on her coffee. Given other responses, either the freezing stabilizes the taste, or she isn't as picky a coffee drinker as I thought!
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Coinsinthefountain
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Coinsinthefountain »

Sweet Maria's. I buy the green beans, roast them myself then burr grind them just before brewing through an Italian machine. Once you've had great coffee Starbucks tastes pretty bad.
KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

TomatoTomahto wrote:Coming from Coke Zero must be a shock to your taste buds, but following on to what Klang Fool suggested, you probably want fresh roasted beans. I have a container I got from Amazon that holds the beans, but they don't last too long anyway in my house. I dont store more than a 2-week supply.
TomatoTomahto,

http://beanfruit.com/blogs/news/1515277 ... coffee-bag

Is it an air-tight container or it has a one-way valve?

KlangFool
KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

simplesimon wrote:Do you have a Costco by you?
simplesimon,

Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.

KlangFool
nymeria.stark
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by nymeria.stark »

Costco. Not kidding.

They have whole beans from San Francisco Coffee Company (both organic and conventional) that are really, really good. My entire car smells like coffee on the drive home, and when you open the bag, you can see all of those wonderful coffee oils on the beans. It's also not super expensive (it's less at my store than in the price below...and that's for a two-pack). Really, really smooth-tasting coffee.

http://www.costco.com/San-Francisco-Bay ... 39920.html
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simplesimon
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by simplesimon »

KlangFool wrote:
simplesimon wrote:Do you have a Costco by you?
simplesimon,

Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.

KlangFool
I'm not picky about coffee, so I don't know if Costco is really good or really bad. I buy a big cheap bag of ground coffee for home and drink the free stuff at work (W.B. Mason Shazam Columbian, anyone?) For someone like the OP, who is switching from diet soda, Costco would be a very cost effective option if he's not picky either.
lazydavid
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by lazydavid »

KlangFool wrote:Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.
That's because--with the exception of the few lucky locations that have an in-store roastery--Costco outsources their coffee roasting to Starbucks. And unfortunately, despite decades of experience, Starbucks still has no clue how to properly roast coffee beans.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

KlangFool wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:Coming from Coke Zero must be a shock to your taste buds, but following on to what Klang Fool suggested, you probably want fresh roasted beans. I have a container I got from Amazon that holds the beans, but they don't last too long anyway in my house. I dont store more than a 2-week supply.
TomatoTomahto,

http://beanfruit.com/blogs/news/1515277 ... coffee-bag

Is it an air-tight container or it has a one-way valve?

KlangFool
I actually have two, one air-tight that I seldom use anymore except for overflow, and one with a one-way valve that I use.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
mw1739
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by mw1739 »

We use the Costco House Blend (http://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signatur ... 32740.html). It does taste remarkably like Starbucks, for a tiny fraction of the price.

I might have to try some of the other Costco coffee recommended here.
tigermilk
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by tigermilk »

A couple of local roasters. One is down the road in my town, the other has a facility but also provides stock to one of the better grocery stores. I make it a point to buy within a few days of the roast date.
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Morik
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Morik »

TomatoTomahto wrote:Coming from Coke Zero must be a shock to your taste buds, but following on to what Klang Fool suggested, you probably want fresh roasted beans. I have a container I got from Amazon that holds the beans, but they don't last too long anyway in my house. I dont store more than a 2-week supply.
Well, I also drink black coffee anyway. I would often have coke zero for the first bit after waking up, then get black coffee a few hours later, or a Flat White (latte with less milk).
So my taste buds are ok :).

BTW my new setup does have a burr grinder with a large range. It can grind coarse enough for drip. (I don't make espresso at home because I am terrible at it compared to the baristas who make my espresso-based drinks.)
lazydavid wrote:
KlangFool wrote:1) Unless you consume a lot more than 5 pounds per month, I would rather pay the $5.95 shipping and get the coffee fresher. They roasted their coffee fresh every week.
I'll second (edit: third) this. In coffee, there is the so-called "rule of 15s". It states that coffee must be:

--Roasted within 15 months of harvest
--Ground within 15 days of roasting
--Brewed within 15 minutes of grinding

Or it is stale. If you care about the taste of your coffee, you want it to be as fresh as practical. Buying 3 months worth of roasted beans to save a couple of bucks on shipping is a false economy.

Yeah I try to keep it fresh.
I only drink about 15-20 oz of coffee at home per day. (If I need more it will be at work.)

Depending on how tired I expect to be in the morning, I will sometimes grind before I go to bed and set the coffeemaker up to brew 30 minutes or so before I get up. It brews into a very insulated steel carafe--the 30 minutes is enough time for it to cool sufficiently for me to drink comfortably, while still staying hot throughout the consumption period.

But if I can help it I'll grind in the morning and wait for it to brew, then have to wait for it to cool a bit before consuming (I brew at 205 C).

I certainly won't go through 5lb in 15 days. I'm still working through ~2lb of beans I got at whole foods a little over 15 days ago now...
I'd say 1 lb would last me about 15 days.

The prices around here aren't that bad, generally $11-$15/lb for organic beans at wholefoods.




I do have a costco near me; I can check out their coffee sometime.
691175002
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by 691175002 »

You can freeze beans and defrost 1-2 weeks worth at a time.

There have been several double-blind tastings that could not detect staling in frozen coffee.
KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

lazydavid wrote:
KlangFool wrote:Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.
That's because--with the exception of the few lucky locations that have an in-store roastery--Costco outsources their coffee roasting to Starbucks. And unfortunately, despite decades of experience, Starbucks still has no clue how to properly roast coffee beans.
lazydavid,

My Costco has an in-store roastery. But, they roast coffee at a very large batch. In order to ensure all coffee beans are roasted, they burned a few coffee beans in the process. I can taste the difference. Hence, I only buy roasted coffee beans from the coffee roaster that roast coffee in a small batch.

KlangFool
Totrep
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Totrep »

Morik wrote: I live in suburbs of Boston, which makes me think there must be lots of local roasters around. (If not in my suburb, certainly somewhere around Boston.)
Give barismo (http://www.barismo.com) a try!
smackboy1
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by smackboy1 »

Morik wrote:Are there any other places I should check out for buying whole coffee beans?
Life is short, don't waste it drinking bad coffee! Buying coffee online is easy. Whole roasted beans can be frozen airtight and kept for a few months with little degradation. These are some of my favorite roasters in no particular order:

https://counterculturecoffee.com/

https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/

https://www.metropoliscoffee.com/

https://www.klatchroasting.com/

http://redbirdcoffee.com/

Here are some coffee forums:

http://www.home-barista.com/

http://coffeegeek.com/
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Argus714
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Argus714 »

I purchase beans green and roast my own (I have a detached garage - so I don't smoke up the house) and love the results. I've found a couple very environmentally responsible importers who visit the farms from where the beans are grown. These companies also sell roasted coffee:

Sweet Maria's https://www.sweetmarias.com/

And

Dean's Beans https://deansbeans.com/ I almost exclusively buy from Dean's because their a local Massachusetts small business.
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

I buy them here :wink:
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Nicolas
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Nicolas »

I roast my own and buy the green beans here: http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com
You have to register but it's free. One of the distributors is local so I pick it up in person and avoid shipping charges.
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Rob5TCP
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Rob5TCP »

I found CoffeeAM on this site a couple of years ago and have been buying from them since. Every once in awhile I try another roaster, but always ending up coming back to them. I I buy in smaller amounts than 5 lbs so it's always fresh.
Reasonable prices and free freight if you buy over $50.
1995Roadmaster
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by 1995Roadmaster »

Costco
badger42
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by badger42 »

Peets beans from the Costco. About half the price of buying the same beans from Peets, and they work well for hot and iced coffee.
daveatca
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by daveatca »

4 miles from my house at the roastery
http://novocoffee.com/contact-locations/
Green Nut
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Green Nut »

http://redbirdcoffee.com/ been buying from them for years. I've tried others time and again and always go back to Redbird.
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Toons
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Toons »

If I buy them
Walmart.
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Theseus
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Theseus »

TN_Boy
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by TN_Boy »

lazydavid wrote:
KlangFool wrote:Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.
That's because--with the exception of the few lucky locations that have an in-store roastery--Costco outsources their coffee roasting to Starbucks. And unfortunately, despite decades of experience, Starbucks still has no clue how to properly roast coffee beans.
No. :happy Starbucks uses a dark roast for most of their beans (they do have at least one medium roast now). As does Peets. Some people dislike Starbuck beans, and think they taste "burned;" others (millions and millions in fact) like them just fine. Some people don't like any dark roast, for that matter. But that's a taste preference, not a "don't know how to roast beans" issue.

The best coffee: the bean or blend you like, roasted the way you like. There is not a "best" coffee or roaster.
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by jebmke »

daveatca wrote:4 miles from my house at the roastery
http://novocoffee.com/contact-locations/
I used to live about a mile from a small, local roastery. When the wind was from the right direction we could smell the roasting coffee. We still buy from them mail order.
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KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

TN_Boy wrote:
lazydavid wrote:
KlangFool wrote:Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.
That's because--with the exception of the few lucky locations that have an in-store roastery--Costco outsources their coffee roasting to Starbucks. And unfortunately, despite decades of experience, Starbucks still has no clue how to properly roast coffee beans.
No. :happy Starbucks uses a dark roast for most of their beans (they do have at least one medium roast now). As does Peets. Some people dislike Starbuck beans, and think they taste "burned;" others (millions and millions in fact) like them just fine. Some people don't like any dark roast, for that matter. But that's a taste preference, not a "don't know how to roast beans" issue.

The best coffee: the bean or blend you like, roasted the way you like. There is not a "best" coffee or roaster.
TN_Boy,

<<No. :happy Starbucks uses a dark roast for most of their beans (they do have at least one medium roast now). As does Peets. Some people dislike Starbuck beans, and think they taste "burned;" o>>

1) I tasted burned coffee beans even with their medium roasted coffee.

2) I had tasted dark roasted coffee from better coffee roaster and they do not taste "burned"

3) I had tasted 100+ coffee from coffee roasters all over the world. So, I believe I know the difference between "burned" coffee and dark roasted coffee.

<<not a "don't know how to roast beans" issue.>>

4) I do not claim that Starbuck does not know how to roast coffee. They roast coffee at a very large batch. It is very hard to roast evenly. Hence, some coffee bean will be burned in the process. A small coffee roaster that roasts 50 pounds of coffee bean at a time could do a better job.

KlangFool
quantAndHold
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by quantAndHold »

Local roaster, where I can control how fresh the beans are. The best places have a date stamp on the bag.

If I couldn't do that, I'd mail order from one of the mail order places smackboy1 listed. Life is too short to worry about how much my coffee beans cost.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
TN_Boy
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by TN_Boy »

KlangFool wrote:
TN_Boy wrote:
lazydavid wrote:
KlangFool wrote:Costco tends to over-roasted their own coffee beans and produce a burned taste.
That's because--with the exception of the few lucky locations that have an in-store roastery--Costco outsources their coffee roasting to Starbucks. And unfortunately, despite decades of experience, Starbucks still has no clue how to properly roast coffee beans.
No. :happy Starbucks uses a dark roast for most of their beans (they do have at least one medium roast now). As does Peets. Some people dislike Starbuck beans, and think they taste "burned;" others (millions and millions in fact) like them just fine. Some people don't like any dark roast, for that matter. But that's a taste preference, not a "don't know how to roast beans" issue.

The best coffee: the bean or blend you like, roasted the way you like. There is not a "best" coffee or roaster.
TN_Boy,

<<No. :happy Starbucks uses a dark roast for most of their beans (they do have at least one medium roast now). As does Peets. Some people dislike Starbuck beans, and think they taste "burned;" o>>

1) I tasted burned coffee beans even with their medium roasted coffee.

2) I had tasted dark roasted coffee from better coffee roaster and they do not taste "burned"

3) I had tasted 100+ coffee from coffee roasters all over the world. So, I believe I know the difference between "burned" coffee and dark roasted coffee.

<<not a "don't know how to roast beans" issue.>>

4) I do not claim that Starbuck does not know how to roast coffee. They roast coffee at a very large batch. It is very hard to roast evenly. Hence, some coffee bean will be burned in the process. A small coffee roaster that roasts 50 pounds of coffee bean at a time could do a better job.

KlangFool
I've tasted coffee from a lot of roasters as well, from all over the world, and have access to several local excellent roasters. You think Starbucks taste "burned." I don't think they taste burned; it's just a different flavor. Why is one of us right?

Many roasters roast in large quantities I"m sure.
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

TN_Boy wrote:
Many roasters roast in large quantities I"m sure.
TN_Boy,

But, what should I buy from them? I only buy from the coffee roaster that roast at a small batch. I can taste the difference.

KlangFool
TN_Boy
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by TN_Boy »

KlangFool wrote:
TN_Boy wrote:
Many roasters roast in large quantities I"m sure.
TN_Boy,

But, what should I buy from them? I only buy from the coffee roaster that roast at a small batch. I can taste the difference.

KlangFool
My point is relatively modest; to you, Starbucks beans taste "burned." They do not taste that way to me (I usually drink espresso with sugar and a small amount of cream, incidentally, not a latte with a little bit of coffee and a whole lot of milk). I don't think you should buy from Starbucks if you don't like their beans.

I'm just saying I don't think the flavor of their beans is because they don't know how to roast them, or for that matter because they roast in large batches. You are assuming the difference is large versus small batch sizes, which strikes me as sort of a guess.

Starbucks is not my favorite choice of beans, or even favorite espresso (though I find their espresso decent and surprisingly consistent across shops all over the country). But I don't think they taste "burned;" a good espresso from Starbucks has a mild smoky flavor I like. It's just a taste preference.

Imagine how successful Starbucks would be if they could only roast beans better. :happy

Mild tangent: I wonder how coffee drinkers would fare in blind taste tests, picking one coffee versus another. Wine snobs, err drinkers, including "experts," seem to do poorly at such tests.
KlangFool
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by KlangFool »

TN_Boy wrote:
KlangFool wrote:
TN_Boy wrote:
Many roasters roast in large quantities I"m sure.
TN_Boy,

But, what should I buy from them? I only buy from the coffee roaster that roast at a small batch. I can taste the difference.

KlangFool
My point is relatively modest; to you, Starbucks beans taste "burned." They do not taste that way to me (I usually drink espresso with sugar and a small amount of cream, incidentally, not a latte with a little bit of coffee and a whole lot of milk). I don't think you should buy from Starbucks if you don't like their beans.

I'm just saying I don't think the flavor of their beans is because they don't know how to roast them, or for that matter because they roast in large batches. You are assuming the difference is large versus small batch sizes, which strikes me as sort of a guess.
TN_Boy,

I do not drink espresso. I am a pour over / cold brew/ aeropress type of coffee drinker. I either go for medium roast and / or light roasted coffee.

<<You are assuming the difference is large versus small batch sizes, which strikes me as sort of a guess. >>

Yes, I am guessing. But, over the sample size of 100+ coffee that I tasted over many coffee roasters, the coffee roaster that roasted their coffee bean in small batches tend not to have the "burned" taste problem.

KlangFool
davidsorensen32
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by davidsorensen32 »

+1 The peets holiday blend (red carton) from Costco
badger42 wrote:Peets beans from the Costco. About half the price of buying the same beans from Peets, and they work well for hot and iced coffee.
Green Nut
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Green Nut »

Am I wrong with the fact there is a big espresso misconception? Espresso doesn't have to be with a dark roast, love mine with a medium roast. Espresso is the process, not the bean.
bloom2708
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Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by bloom2708 »

I like that the interweb has made so many coffee options available.

Places like this in wee little Fargo are pretty cool:

https://20below.coffee/

It was not -20 this morning. It was closer to 0. A good coffee day.

I have a bag of the Single Origin Costa Rica Don Pepe that is pretty good in a pour over. :D
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Michread
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:50 am

Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Michread »

Market Basket

Market Basket carries Vermont Roasting Company brand of organic whole bean coffee at $10/lb - light, medium or dark roasted - very good imho :D

http://www.vermontcoffeecompany.com/Ver ... offee.html
Early retirement 2018
Dagda
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:15 pm

Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Dagda »

I buy my beans from BJs, their store brand is Wellsley Farm. They have several varieties available, including organic (if that's your thing) and seem to be reasonably priced at $11-13 for 40oz of beans. If you want their Kona Blend, I think that's like $16 for 32oz of beans.

They do the job just fine and I don't fret about making a decision about this so I can focus on other things.
Broken Man 1999
Posts: 5334
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am
Location: West coast of Florida, inland on high ground!

Re: Where do you buy coffee beans?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

I buy my coffee beans at Costco, like so many others here.

Currently I'm enjoying Costco's Kirkland brand of Sumatran dark roast. Prior to this coffee I had San Francisco Bay French roast. I have tried many coffee beans at Costco, and thus far none have disappointed.

I used to buy coffee at Orleans Coffee, their selection is great, but I didn't think the coffee was twice as good as the various Costco coffee beans I have bought.

Coffee, like so many other consumables, is not "good" or "bad" because of where you buy it, where it was grown, how it is roasted, or how much it costs. It's "good" or "bad" because of your individual tastes. :idea:

Fortunately, it seems as though my taste buds are perfectly satisfied with lower priced coffee beans. And, believe me, I have tried many coffees in my lifetime. I have a well-worn Saeco automatic in my pantry, retired when I bought my $20 Mr. Coffee. My automatic was way too needy. My time is too valuable to mess with it.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain
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