Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

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Saving$
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Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by Saving$ » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:45 am

Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?

Many people remark that before coming to this site they were so confused about investing, thinking it was really complicated. They have read all sorts of financial newsletters, and just get more confused. Then they get the three fund portfolio and set and forget.

For some, diet and nutrition is like that - lots of theories, lots of complication. Is there something like Bogleheads for a healthy diet and nutrition? Both for losing weight and then maintaining? Simple, not some fad, not the nutrition version of the newsletter of the month. The three fund portfolio of diet and nutrition?

Ideally, something like this would have a weekly grocery shopping list, that can then be used to make what I hope would be exceedingly easy to prepare meals.

surfhb
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by surfhb » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:56 am

Just like the 3 fund Portfolio - Make it Simple: Eat some fruit, vegetables and a small portion of protein at every meal. Throw in some beans and rice once in awhile and snack on nuts and berries

Example:

Breakfast:
Cantaloupe, Sauteed Spinach and a small Turkey breast

Lunch:
Strawberries, Grilled Carrots and Grilled Orange Roughy

Dinner:
Kiwi Fruit, Salad, Pork/veggie Stew

I spend no more than $50 a week on food, eating simply.

Dont over think your cooking. Just simple and fresh

AlohaJoe
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by AlohaJoe » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:04 am

There was a thread with a nearly identical question back in February that went for 7 pages. I didn't read it, so I'm not sure it actually answered the question you're asking. But you might check it out: viewtopic.php?t=185166

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cinghiale
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by cinghiale » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:30 am

There are contending viewpoints about what constitutes an optimum diet... even among Bogleheads. Picking up on what surfhb already wrote, I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.

Here's a good one-page description of the three recommendations: http://strongertogether.coop/food-lifes ... for-eating

I would also recommend http://www.nutritionfacts.org. It reviews current nutritional research with daily, 3-4 minute videos, and you can search it for coverage of topics and areas that interest you. It leans heavily toward the "mostly plants" side of things, but provides the kind of information that helps you make good dietary choices.
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by denovo » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:59 am

In before the lock!
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

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cinghiale
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by cinghiale » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:53 am

In before the lock?

Huh?

Go to the link provided by AlohaJoe. That thread had 340+ posts and wasn't locked.

While the OP does not explicitly touch on the substance of investing, s/he does inquire about diet and nutrition in a way that parallels the process of it as articulated in this forum: Is there a quick and simple way to understand eating, similar to Mr. Bogle's 12 Pillars or Taylor's advocacy of the three fund portfolio? If things stay civil, there's no reason to put a boot on the tire here.
"We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are." Anais Nin | | "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious." George Orwell

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Svensk Anga
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by Svensk Anga » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:46 am

This book is my guide to what science says is the best way to eat: Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy: The Harvard Medical School Guide to Healthy Eating, Walter C. Willett. The author is an MD and a professor of epidemiology at Harvard and ran the Nurses Health Study. The Harvard School of Public Health has an email newsletter with updates from the field.

It is very difficult to do reliable science on the long term effects of diet on health. Much depends on people self reporting food intake, which could be unreliable or unstable over time. Adverse outcomes may not show up for decades. Dr. Willett's book describes what science can say and admits what is questionable, based largely on the long-term nurses health studies, but also other research in the field. He also provides guidance on interpreting reports on studies seen in the mainstream media. This helps to tune out the noise. The book is getting a bit dated though.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by dm200 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:59 am

Svensk Anga wrote:This book is my guide to what science says is the best way to eat: Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy: The Harvard Medical School Guide to Healthy Eating, Walter C. Willett. The author is an MD and a professor of epidemiology at Harvard and ran the Nurses Health Study. The Harvard School of Public Health has an email newsletter with updates from the field.
It is very difficult to do reliable science on the long term effects of diet on health. Much depends on people self reporting food intake, which could be unreliable or unstable over time. Adverse outcomes may not show up for decades. Dr. Willett's book describes what science can say and admits what is questionable, based largely on the long-term nurses health studies, but also other research in the field. He also provides guidance on interpreting reports on studies seen in the mainstream media. This helps to tune out the noise. The book is getting a bit dated though.
I like this book as well, but I think there are better onw.

"How Not to Die" by Dr Michael Greger
www.nutritionfacts.org

"The Okinawa Program"
"Younger next Year"
"Thinner this year"

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:04 am

cinghiale wrote:I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

Danzangdc
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by Danzangdc » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:29 am

low carbs
med protein
high fat

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by soboggled » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:40 am

VictoriaF wrote:
cinghiale wrote:I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
Too complicated IMO. Just stick to fresh produce and animals, no processed foods. Pollan's advice is perfect, though one could eliminate "not too much" because if you follow the first two you will not need a lot of food. (The problem with the pro-biotics advice/fad is that many people think that means specialty products rather than sticking to produce, just as they think vitamins means a supplement).

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:10 am

soboggled wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
cinghiale wrote:I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
Too complicated IMO. Just stick to fresh produce and animals, no processed foods. Pollan's advice is perfect, though one could eliminate "not too much" because if you follow the first two you will not need a lot of food. (The problem with the pro-biotics advice/fad is that many people think that means specialty products rather than sticking to produce, just as they think vitamins means a supplement).
Continuing with the Three-Fund analogy, my "avoid" items are equivalent to avoiding investment products that mask as Bogleheads-like but carry high fees or require an adviser (e.g., DFA).

My interest in pro-biotics and pre-biotics is similar to the Bogleheads interest in I bonds and TIPS, which introduce some complexity but have unique features that make this complexity worthwhile. Pro-biotics and pre-biotics include some foods that are not produce, e.g., yogurt and kefir, and some some processing of produce in the form of fermentation, e.g., kimchi.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by Barefootgirl » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:13 am

Dietary plannning/advice in this country has risen to the level of fetishism.

I think it's simple. Eat foods as close as possible, to the form they came directly from nature - obviously some peeling, cooking or minimal prep is involved (such as those of traditional pre-modern human populations) Not interested in nitpicking this one.
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:21 am

VictoriaF wrote:
cinghiale wrote:I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
As a nutrition/health researcher and professional, the more I learn the more I agree with Pollan's very basic principles. The mention of Walter Willett is also good; he's one of the very few in public health who actually looks at the research instead of spinning it for a preconceived agenda - it's been interesting to see his perspectives on diet change over the past two decades. FWIW, part of my job is overseeing and contributing to a health/nutrition/exercise blog which gets 1m+ hits a month; for the sake of anonymity and forum rules (I think), I won't provide a link, but it will be on the first few pages of a basic search if you want to search for my (evidence-based) opinions.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by climber2020 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:22 am

Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?
Go see a nutritionist/dietitian. It will be far more useful than the anecdotal "evidence" you'll get here or anywhere else online. Everyone's an expert.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by finite_difference » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:30 am

surfhb wrote:Just like the 3 fund Portfolio - Make it Simple: Eat some fruit, vegetables and a small portion of protein at every meal. Throw in some beans and rice once in awhile and snack on nuts and berries

Example:

Breakfast:
Cantaloupe, Sauteed Spinach and a small Turkey breast

Lunch:
Strawberries, Grilled Carrots and Grilled Orange Roughy

Dinner:
Kiwi Fruit, Salad, Pork/veggie Stew

I spend no more than $50 a week on food, eating simply.

Dont over think your cooking. Just simple and fresh
You could probably eat as much as you wanted of the above and still be thin. Unfortunately I am not yet nearly that disciplined :)
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:38 am

climber2020 wrote:
Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?
Go see a nutritionist/dietitian. It will be far more useful than the anecdotal "evidence" you'll get here or anywhere else online. Everyone's an expert.
Bill Bernstein says that if you know how to select a financial adviser you don't need an adviser.
The same is true for nutrition.

The value of discussing nutrition in the Bogleheads Forum is that you know various frequent posters and develop respect for some of them based on the quality of their analysis. For example, cinghiale has been consistently a high-quality poster on a variety of topics, and I am interested in his opinion. stoptothink is an expert in this area and I appreciate how he walks a fine line between helping out without violating Forum's rules.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:43 am

VictoriaF wrote:
climber2020 wrote:
Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?
Go see a nutritionist/dietitian. It will be far more useful than the anecdotal "evidence" you'll get here or anywhere else online. Everyone's an expert.
Bill Bernstein says that if you know how to select a financial adviser you don't need an adviser.
The same is true for nutrition.

The value of discussing nutrition in the Bogleheads Forum is that you know various frequent posters and develop respect for some of them based on the quality of their analysis. For example, cinghiale has been consistently a high-quality poster on a variety of topics, and I am interested in his opinion. stoptothink is an expert in this area and I appreciate how he walks a fine line between helping out without violating Forum's rules.

Victoria
I agree completely, and thanks for the vote of confidence.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by SpaethCo » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:51 am

Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?

The three fund portfolio of diet and nutrition?
You just described the basis of IIFYM (If It Fits Your Macros) http://www.iifym.com

You have 3 basic macronutrients your body needs: carbohydrates, protein, and fat.

You establish a Calorie budget based on your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE), taking into account your goals of shrinking, maintaining, or growing your ... uh, portfolio. Your food selection to fill that budget isn't about whether a food is considered "good" or "clean", but rather about keeping a balance between the nutrients (for health) and choosing foods that allow you to keep to your Calorie budget while still feel full/satisfied to manage your risk of adhering to the plan.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by soboggled » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:53 am

VictoriaF wrote:
soboggled wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
cinghiale wrote:I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
Too complicated IMO. Just stick to fresh produce and animals, no processed foods. Pollan's advice is perfect, though one could eliminate "not too much" because if you follow the first two you will not need a lot of food. (The problem with the pro-biotics advice/fad is that many people think that means specialty products rather than sticking to produce, just as they think vitamins means a supplement).
Continuing with the Three-Fund analogy, my "avoid" items are equivalent to avoiding investment products that mask as Bogleheads-like but carry high fees or require an adviser (e.g., DFA).

My interest in pro-biotics and pre-biotics is similar to the Bogleheads interest in I bonds and TIPS, which introduce some complexity but have unique features that make this complexity worthwhile. Pro-biotics and pre-biotics include some foods that are not produce, e.g., yogurt and kefir, and some some processing of produce in the form of fermentation, e.g., kimchi.

Victoria
The problem with yogurt is that most yogurt people buy contains a lot of added sugar.
The problem with kimchi is it contains nitrates and similar chemicals which some studies indicate cause stomach cancer, a big problem in Asia.
The principle of avoiding processed foods covers this: Avoiding processed foods means making your own without added ingredients or reading all labels to reject those with added ingredients.
PS: I do not agree with minimizing fresh fruits, although vegetables are arguably more important if that's all you mean.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by BW1985 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:55 am

climber2020 wrote:
Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?
Go see a nutritionist/dietitian. It will be far more useful than the anecdotal "evidence" you'll get here or anywhere else online. Everyone's an expert.
This is the equivalent of telling someone to go see a financial adviser. (for general knowledge, not for treatment)

As true with many things, the best way is to research, gather knowledge and experiment yourself making adjustments as needed.

I like Pollan and Gregor's stuff who have already been mentioned.
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by jay22 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:16 am

Pollan's advice is absolutely perfect. Each vegetarian food (in sane quantity) 70-75% of the time and you'll be fine.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:16 am

soboggled wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
soboggled wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
Too complicated IMO. Just stick to fresh produce and animals, no processed foods. Pollan's advice is perfect, though one could eliminate "not too much" because if you follow the first two you will not need a lot of food. (The problem with the pro-biotics advice/fad is that many people think that means specialty products rather than sticking to produce, just as they think vitamins means a supplement).
Continuing with the Three-Fund analogy, my "avoid" items are equivalent to avoiding investment products that mask as Bogleheads-like but carry high fees or require an adviser (e.g., DFA).

My interest in pro-biotics and pre-biotics is similar to the Bogleheads interest in I bonds and TIPS, which introduce some complexity but have unique features that make this complexity worthwhile. Pro-biotics and pre-biotics include some foods that are not produce, e.g., yogurt and kefir, and some some processing of produce in the form of fermentation, e.g., kimchi.

Victoria
The problem with yogurt is that most yogurt people buy contains a lot of added sugar.
The problem with kimchi is it contains nitrates and similar chemicals which some studies indicate cause stomach cancer, a big problem in Asia.
The principle of avoiding processed foods covers this: Avoiding processed foods means making your own without added ingredients or reading all labels to reject those with added ingredients.
PS: I do not agree with minimizing fresh fruits, although vegetables are arguably more important if that's all you mean.
- To make it explicit, I buy and recommend only PLAIN yogurt and kefir.
- Good point about nitrates in kimchi. I'll look into it.
- The purpose of minimizing fruits is to reduce associates sugar. Modern fruits have been cultivated to be much sweeter than they have been in the past.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by FreeAtLast » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:20 am

Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?

Many people remark that before coming to this site they were so confused about investing, thinking it was really complicated. They have read all sorts of financial newsletters, and just get more confused. Then they get the three fund portfolio and set and forget.

For some, diet and nutrition is like that - lots of theories, lots of complication. Is there something like Bogleheads for a healthy diet and nutrition? Both for losing weight and then maintaining? Simple, not some fad, not the nutrition version of the newsletter of the month. The three fund portfolio of diet and nutrition?

Ideally, something like this would have a weekly grocery shopping list, that can then be used to make what I hope would be exceedingly easy to prepare meals.
Within reason, I eat what I want when I want to. For example, if I have a craving for barbecue potato chips, I will have some. "Reason" means I will not consume an entire 16 ounce bag at one sitting.

The absolutely best thing I ever learned about myself and diet was that I don't need to eat three meals a day. It took me a while to believe this because I am a vigorous, daily exerciser and I thought I would simply collapse from hypoglycemia without the three meals. Instead, one decent-sized lunch and maybe a small snack (cheese and crackers) at night and I feel great as far as satiety goes. So to you, OP, I recommend that you try eating only when you really feel hungry.....and not just because you are bored and have nothing else to do. As far as what you eat: I am a big fan of the Mediterranean diet, that is, chicken and fish and lean red meat combined with of pasta and beans and a good insalata. But I can tell you right now based on previous threads that Bogleheads greatly differ as to what constitutes a healthy, satisfactory diet. Good luck to you.
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:28 am

FreeAtLast wrote:
Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?

Many people remark that before coming to this site they were so confused about investing, thinking it was really complicated. They have read all sorts of financial newsletters, and just get more confused. Then they get the three fund portfolio and set and forget.

For some, diet and nutrition is like that - lots of theories, lots of complication. Is there something like Bogleheads for a healthy diet and nutrition? Both for losing weight and then maintaining? Simple, not some fad, not the nutrition version of the newsletter of the month. The three fund portfolio of diet and nutrition?

Ideally, something like this would have a weekly grocery shopping list, that can then be used to make what I hope would be exceedingly easy to prepare meals.
The absolutely best thing I ever learned about myself and diet was that I don't need to eat three meals a day. It took me a while to believe this because I am a vigorous, daily exerciser and I thought I would simply collapse from hypoglycemia without the three meals. Instead, one decent-sized lunch and maybe a small snack (cheese and crackers) at night and I feel great as far as satiety goes. So to you, OP, I recommend that you try eating only when you really feel hungry.....and not just because you are bored and have nothing else to do.
Something else that I have come to understand, everybody is different - there are basic principles of nutrition, but individuals can have vastly different metabolic capabilities and respond totally different to the same protocols. The "3 meals a day" is definitely not a law, like you, I find I perform better on fewer (but larger) meals and I am a large man and a lifelong competitive athlete. I practice a lot of intermittent fasting and have even had fantastic training sessions on 24hrs+ without food. If you are really concerned about how you feel and perform, you need to discover what works best for you through experience.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by HomerJ » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:36 am

surfhb wrote:Just like the 3 fund Portfolio - Make it Simple: Eat some fruit, vegetables and a small portion of protein at every meal. Throw in some beans and rice once in awhile and snack on nuts and berries

Example:

Breakfast:
Cantaloupe, Sauteed Spinach and a small Turkey breast

Lunch:
Strawberries, Grilled Carrots and Grilled Orange Roughy

Dinner:
Kiwi Fruit, Salad, Pork/veggie Stew

I spend no more than $50 a week on food, eating simply.

Dont over think your cooking. Just simple and fresh
Heh, simple eh? I love making sautéed Spinach while getting the kids ready for school in the morning.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by BW1985 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:44 am

VictoriaF wrote: - To make it explicit, I buy and recommend only PLAIN yogurt and kefir.
- Good point about nitrates in kimchi. I'll look into it.
- The purpose of minimizing fruits is to reduce associates sugar. Modern fruits have been cultivated to be much sweeter than they have been in the past.

Victoria
Have you tried Kombucha? My favorite is GT's multi-green.
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by jackietreehorn » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:27 pm

Arthur Jones is the Jack Bogle of exercise. Look to his right hand man, Dr. Ellington Darden for nutrition advice.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:52 pm

jackietreehorn wrote:Arthur Jones is the Jack Bogle of exercise. Look to his right hand man, Dr. Ellington Darden for nutrition advice.
Arthur Jones of nautilus fame? Wouldn't exactly say his exercise principles reflect contemporary exercise science.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by jackietreehorn » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:01 pm

stoptothink wrote:
jackietreehorn wrote:Arthur Jones is the Jack Bogle of exercise. Look to his right hand man, Dr. Ellington Darden for nutrition advice.
Arthur Jones of nautilus fame? Wouldn't exactly say his exercise principles reflect contemporary exercise science.
OP's question was about diet/nutrition, so I pointed him/her to Darden. In regards to Jones, most professional sports teams implement some form of High Intensity Training, this includes Crossfit and Interval training. Jones brought High Intensity Training or HIT to the exercise world in the '70s. The biggest kicker of Nautilus, is that the owner invented it as a hobby, he was already wealthy!!!!

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by FreeAtLast » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:07 pm

[/quote]Something else that I have come to understand, everybody is different - there are basic principles of nutrition, but individuals can have vastly different metabolic capabilities and respond totally different to the same protocols. The "3 meals a day" is definitely not a law, like you, I find I perform better on fewer (but larger) meals and I am a large man and a lifelong competitive athlete. I practice a lot of intermittent fasting and have even had fantastic training sessions on 24hrs+ without food. If you are really concerned about how you feel and perform, you need to discover what works best for you through experience.[/quote]

Excellent words of dietary wisdom, stoptothink. One should never underestimate the heterogeneity of the human race's biological systems. When I used to run competitive 5K's, I would often not eat for 20-24 hours before a race. Never had a problem with feeling weak or shaky. Another benefit of regular and vigorous exercise is that it teaches you about your body's real needs and limits, including those related to diet and nutrition.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by JustinTime » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:22 pm


JoinToday
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by JoinToday » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:55 pm

stoptothink wrote:....

FWIW, part of my job is overseeing and contributing to a health/nutrition/exercise blog which gets 1m+ hits a month; for the sake of anonymity and forum rules (I think), I won't provide a link, but it will be on the first few pages of a basic search if you want to search for my (evidence-based) opinions.
I did a search. How do I know which one on the first few pages is yours?

PM me with a link if you can, or give us a few more hints to help us.
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by Ninnie » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:53 pm

I second, or third, meeting with a nutritionist. A good one will help you customize to your preferences and health issues/goals. Online everyone has a different opinion.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by TRC » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:30 pm

Just eat real food. Veggies, fruits and healthy, pasture raised meat. Don't eat stuff from packages.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by jackietreehorn » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:09 pm

I'd like to apologize in advance for beating this dead horse, I know this topic comes up a lot, and I truly respect everyone's opinion here, but this topic really sticks in my side. If your the type of person that is truly clueless about diet/exercise, then yes, hire a nutritionist/trainer. Just understand it's an unnecessary expense. A person really doesn't need to go any further than Google to find a reasonable diet to follow. It's that simple.

There is just as much if not more diet/nutrition/exercise baloney out there, as there is financial baloney. All of the "science" of these diets changes every couple of years. Tune it out.

I'm familiar with Greger's work (I think he's a bit of a wacko) and Pollan's (I agree more with him), they have good advice. Guess what? Jack Lalanne, yes Jack Lalanne, has been preaching the same advice since 1950. Nothing new, just wrapped up different and sold again.

A comment was made by stoptothink about my previous post in regards to Arthur Jones. I love Jones/Darden. Yes, I do think Jones' principles are relevant today. Hardwork, strict form, high intensity. This formula worked back in the day and it works today. It also works for extremely fit people and not so fit people, health permitting.

The original question was a Boglehead style diet. Eat naturally occurring food, mostly vegetables, some fruit and lean meat. Workout with strict form and high intensity for a short period of time. It's what Jack Lalanne and Arthur Jones have been saying for all these years.

Best :happy

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by pondering » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:29 pm

How much discretion do you have over your diet?

The thing that needs to be avoided is sugar.
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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by pondering » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:30 pm

How much discretion do you have over your diet?

The thing that needs to be avoided is sugar.
--Robert Sterbal | 412-977-3526 call/text, I find speech easier than writing

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by Crimsontide » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:36 pm

surfhb wrote:Just like the 3 fund Portfolio - Make it Simple: Eat some fruit, vegetables and a small portion of protein at every meal. Throw in some beans and rice once in awhile and snack on nuts and berries

Example:

Breakfast:
Cantaloupe, Sauteed Spinach and a small Turkey
One word on this breakfast, yuck :confused

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by njboater74 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:18 pm

1. Come up with a desired asset allocation of Fats/Proteins/Carbohydrates based on your tolerance for less tasty foods balanced with your desire to lose/maintain weight.
2. Keep costs low - no fancy gurus or diet pills
3. Stay the course - especially Thanksgiving through Christmas

If it were only this easy :sharebeer
When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world - 'No, YOU move'--Captain America, Boglehead

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by CFM300 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:19 pm

jackietreehorn wrote:In regards to [Arthur] Jones, most professional sports teams implement some form of High Intensity Training, this includes Crossfit and Interval training.
The "high intensity training" (HIT) of Arthur Jones is not used by professional sports teams, colleges, or any serious strength and conditioning program, athough perhaps some bodybuilders still favor his approach. (I honestly don't know, as I'm not in tune with that subculture.)

And Jones's brand of HIT has absolutely nothing in common with CrossFit's prescription of "high intensity, constantly varied, functional movement". Sure, both use the phrase "high intensity", but they mean completely different things by it. Completely different.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by CFM300 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:27 pm

stoptothink wrote:Something else that I have come to understand, everybody is different - there are basic principles of nutrition, but individuals can have vastly different metabolic capabilities and respond totally different to the same protocols.
I agree 100% and would add that there's also tremendous variance among people with respect to behavioral issues and compliance. Some people like clearly laid out meals so no decisions are involved. Others do better with intermittent fasting, which involves windows of eating where nothing is restricted. Others prefer to just eat particular types of food, but as much as they want (e.g., vegetarian or paleo). Any of these approaches, as well as others, can work. But there's no single best protocol for everyone. People have to experiment and find a diet that work best for them.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by surfhb » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:42 pm

Crimsontide wrote:
surfhb wrote:Just like the 3 fund Portfolio - Make it Simple: Eat some fruit, vegetables and a small portion of protein at every meal. Throw in some beans and rice once in awhile and snack on nuts and berries

Example:

Breakfast:
Cantaloupe, Sauteed Spinach and a small Turkey
One word on this breakfast, yuck :confused
Ah heck! ok....replace the turkey breast with 2 eggs and you can call it breakfast :happy But its ok to cook sausage in gravy and pour it over biscuits....talk about disgusting! 8-) The western (American) breakfast has always perplexed me

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by jackietreehorn » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:02 pm

CFM300 wrote:
jackietreehorn wrote:In regards to [Arthur] Jones, most professional sports teams implement some form of High Intensity Training, this includes Crossfit and Interval training.
The "high intensity training" (HIT) of Arthur Jones is not used by professional sports teams, colleges, or any serious strength and conditioning program, athough perhaps some bodybuilders still favor his approach. (I honestly don't know, as I'm not in tune with that subculture.)

And Jones's brand of HIT has absolutely nothing in common with CrossFit's prescription of "high intensity, constantly varied, functional movement". Sure, both use the phrase "high intensity", but they mean completely different things by it. Completely different.
Arthur Jones' exact form of HIT is not used. You'd be hard pressed to find a gym with all original equipment in it, but I'm sure some exist. SOME FORM of Jones' HIT is absolutely used. 1-2 sets of an exercise, with 48-60 seconds of TUT (time under tension) meaning 6-10 reps, to momentary muscle failure is absolutely used. It's not the exact same workout, but it is a version. Concepts are the same. There is a lot more emphasis on speed for players nowadays as well, so workouts are naturally different.

Training to momentary muscle failure is a concept that Jones pioneered. Training to 80% failure was popular during that time period.

I may have mis-worded my Crossfit comment. The idea behind CF (high intensity, constantly varied, and functional movement) are the exact reason Jones created his Nautilus machines and workouts. He had multiple workouts, not just one constantly repeated. The design of the equipment gave the specific muscle the correct motion to be trained. This goes hand in hand with functional movement.' Intensity goes without saying.

Interval training is exactly what Jones did, so I don't really understand that point.

I do agree with the everybody is different comment by stoptothink and yourself. High Volume Training may work better for some people, but once a muscle is stimulated correctly, HVT is just wasting time. A Boglehead workout would be more efficient.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Jones and his research. If you're interested, I'd recommend reading up on some of his accomplishments. I'm guessing you have some form of involvement with weight training, you may not even realize Jones could be responsible for what you do. Thanks for commenting.

Best.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by bogleenigma » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:40 pm

soboggled wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
cinghiale wrote:I would point you to Michael Pollan's seven word approach, found in his book, In Defense of Food:

--Eat food.
--Mostly plants.
--Not too much.

That's the dietary equivalent of the three fund portfolio.
I agree that Pollan's three criteria are the closest equivalent to Taylor's three-fund portfolio. My variation of Pollan's criteria is:
--Avoid sugar and other carbohydrate-rich foods
--Avoid juices, smoothies, power bars, and other processed foods marketed as "healthy"
--Maximize vegetables, minimize fruits
--Have a lot of pro-biotics and pre-biotics

Victoria
Too complicated IMO. Just stick to fresh produce and animals, no processed foods. Pollan's advice is perfect, though one could eliminate "not too much" because if you follow the first two you will not need a lot of food. (The problem with the pro-biotics advice/fad is that many people think that means specialty products rather than sticking to produce, just as they think vitamins means a supplement).
Some of us make sure that we eat some sort of lactofermented food every day. I'm not sure I would call that part of a fad diet. It's sensible nutrition given the research we have regarding the gut microbiome.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by bogleenigma » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:43 pm

I second that. Paul Jaminet's diet is pretty great for the average person. I think it's a bit carbohydrate rich for folks with significant obesity. But it's based on very sound nutritional principles.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by bogleenigma » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:48 pm

Saving$ wrote:Is there a Boglehead like site or philosophy for Diet and Nutrition?
Many folks have recommended consultation with a dietician/nutritionist. I would take that further, and recommend a nutritionist that has passed their Certified Nutrition Specialist exam and ideally is a member of the American College of Nutrition. Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics tends to be a little bit behind on their recommendations in terms of following where the research is now.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by stemikger » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:43 pm

I eat what makes me happy. When I see myself gaining weight I just eat less.

No food is off limits but the amount is.

I also try to walk 30 minutes a day on the treadmill and some form of isometrics for strength.
Choose Simplicity ~ Stay the Course!! ~ Press on Regardless!!!

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by CFM300 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:56 pm

jackietreehorn wrote:
CFM300 wrote:
jackietreehorn wrote:In regards to [Arthur] Jones, most professional sports teams implement some form of High Intensity Training, this includes Crossfit and Interval training.
The "high intensity training" (HIT) of Arthur Jones is not used by professional sports teams, colleges, or any serious strength and conditioning program, athough perhaps some bodybuilders still favor his approach. (I honestly don't know, as I'm not in tune with that subculture.)

And Jones's brand of HIT has absolutely nothing in common with CrossFit's prescription of "high intensity, constantly varied, functional movement". Sure, both use the phrase "high intensity", but they mean completely different things by it. Completely different.
Arthur Jones' exact form of HIT is not used. You'd be hard pressed to find a gym with all original equipment in it, but I'm sure some exist. SOME FORM of Jones' HIT is absolutely used. 1-2 sets of an exercise, with 48-60 seconds of TUT (time under tension) meaning 6-10 reps, to momentary muscle failure is absolutely used. It's not the exact same workout, but it is a version. Concepts are the same. There is a lot more emphasis on speed for players nowadays as well, so workouts are naturally different.

Training to momentary muscle failure is a concept that Jones pioneered. Training to 80% failure was popular during that time period.

I may have mis-worded my Crossfit comment. The idea behind CF (high intensity, constantly varied, and functional movement) are the exact reason Jones created his Nautilus machines and workouts. He had multiple workouts, not just one constantly repeated. The design of the equipment gave the specific muscle the correct motion to be trained. This goes hand in hand with functional movement.' Intensity goes without saying.

Interval training is exactly what Jones did, so I don't really understand that point.

I do agree with the everybody is different comment by stoptothink and yourself. High Volume Training may work better for some people, but once a muscle is stimulated correctly, HVT is just wasting time. A Boglehead workout would be more efficient.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Jones and his research. If you're interested, I'd recommend reading up on some of his accomplishments. I'm guessing you have some form of involvement with weight training, you may not even realize Jones could be responsible for what you do. Thanks for commenting.

Best.
I trained at a Nautilus facility in my youth, and am very familiar with Jones's work. I think you're being too generous to Jones by regarding two sets of an exercise performed to failure as being "some form" of his HIT program. Jones also had workouts in which a lifter performed 3 sets of reps in a 10, 8, 6 scheme. But that's hardly what people mean when they talk about Jones, Nautilus, and HIT.

With respect to CrossFit, you're way off the mark. CrossFit would regard NONE of the Nautilus exercises as functional movements, and intensity in CrossFit is defined as power, in the strict physics sense of the term (force x distance / time). That has nothing to do with muscular failure, which is how Jones defined intensity.

By the way, both CrossFit's definition of intensity and Jones's are at odds with how the term is customarily used in the strength training literature, where intensity is defined as the percentage of 1 rep max used in an exercise. A 2-rep set of squats at 95% of 1RM would be a customary example of high intensity in the strength literature, though neither CrossFit nor Jones would regard it as such, though again for entirely different reasons. CrossFit: low intensity because low power because too slow. Jones: low intensity because didn't go to failure.

Finally, intervals are sometimes used in CrossFit, but that's not the hallmark of their program. Indeed, those are exceptions. The vast majority of their metcons, and the ones for which they are famous, are either task-priority (finish X amount of work as fast as possible) or time-priority (do as much work as possible in Y amount of time). No prescribed rest intervals whatsoever and the fittest work continuously.

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Re: Bogleheads for Diet/Nutrition?

Post by jackietreehorn » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:52 am

This will be my last reply, in respect for hijacking the thread. CFM300, you have a well informed opinion, I respectfully disagree with some of it.

Muscle fatigue is muscle fatigue. Whether it's task priority or lots of work in a short period of time, like with Crossfit, or a HIT session, or even running hills, one can achieve muscle fatigue. Jones wouldn't like Crossfit. It is the opposite of what he preached. It still achieves muscle fatigue, just in a different manner. The concept of muscle fatigue is something Jones' research was in the forefront of. Safely training a bicep, in its correct range of motion on a Nautilus machine, or any equipment for that matter, will directly translate to functional strength. That bicep will turn a door handle, lift a canned good or raise a glass to your mouth. Crossfit's functional strength concept is the same thing, achieved in a different manner.

The fitness industry looked vastly different then, compared to today. Jones' Nautilus was a major contributor to the boom of private gyms in the 80's. The fact that we're even discussing this, can be attributed to Jones and the other early pioneers of personal fitness. It just wasn't that popular.

If you do not agree with this, there's nothing I can do. You have a well thought out argument, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Sorry for the long post. Thank you for reading.

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