Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

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FB01
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Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by FB01 »

Hi,

My Camry has Check Engine Light on since couple of day. The mechanic diagnosed and gave the below details

Code P0057 : Heated Oxygen Sensor(Bank 2 Sensor) - Heater Circuit Low Input - Automatic Transmission
Code P0161 : Heated Oxygen Sensor(Bank 2 Sensor) - Heater Circuit Malfunction - Automatic Transmission

He said 2 sensor are not working and has given a quote of 300 dollars including everything.

Do I need to repair these sensors soon or I can wait for sometime?
What can be reason these started malfunctioning. My car is 9 years old but only 70K miles.

Any suggestion thought is appreciated.

-JR
Thanks, | FB
rustymutt
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by rustymutt »

It's built into the newer cars, and trucks to remind you that you engine needs service. I don't like it myself. I find it annoying, and unnecessary for someone such as myself. I"m very organized with my maintenance.

Take it by your dealer, and they will punch in a code on the instrument panel controls that removes that warning, til next time.
They might share that information with you on how to do it. It's quite simple actually. I don't know the coding sequence for your model. Might try a internet search. Let us know how it turns out.
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Jack FFR1846
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Depending on how the Toyota ECU reacts to what it's seeing, it could put the car into a safe running mode. This could be to richen the fuel mixture to maximum. Check your fuel mileage. If you're used to 30 mpg and are now getting 6 mpg, you're pretty soon going to spend the money in gas that you would have for the repair. I would assume that the proposed fix is to replace that particular O2 sensor. At 9 years old, I'm not all that surprised that it's gone.

The repair shouldn't take all that long. I don't know what Toyota O2 sensors go for.
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PowDay
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by PowDay »

O2 sensors are very common to replace at 10 years, I would do the repair.

At the same time, consider picking up a $20 bluetooth OBD2 reader, this way you can pull codes yourself and research before heading to the mechanic.
DSInvestor
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by DSInvestor »

I have an ODBII scanner but if you don't you can take the car to an AutoZone store and borrow theirs.
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oldcomputerguy
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by oldcomputerguy »

In addition to the other discussion here, I'd point out that if you happen to live in an area that does emission testing on your vehicle, your vehicle likely won't pass the test if the Check Engine light is on.
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Michread
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by Michread »

Did you do a google search? We have a 2005 Camry v6 and 2 different lights were on, one was check engine. Many sources on google search said replace the gas cap. We did (Amazon cheap one for our make model) and then had mechanic turn dash lights off during oil change and that solved the problem since (1 yr ago).
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alfaspider
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by alfaspider »

rustymutt wrote:It's built into the newer cars, and trucks to remind you that you engine needs service. I don't like it myself. I find it annoying, and unnecessary for someone such as myself. I"m very organized with my maintenance.

Take it by your dealer, and they will punch in a code on the instrument panel controls that removes that warning, til next time.
They might share that information with you on how to do it. It's quite simple actually. I don't know the coding sequence for your model. Might try a internet search. Let us know how it turns out.
You are confusing the check engine light with the service light. The check engine light should be renamed "check emissions", as the majority of codes it throws are emissions systems related.

If the car seems to be running fine, it's highly unlikely that a check engine light is a big deal, but if you live in a state with emissions inspections, and illuminated check engine light is an auto-fail.

Oxygen sensors can be used for both emissions and non-emissions reasons. Usually there's a primary that is used to help the computer calculate air/fuel ratios, and a secondary for catalytic converter efficiency.

As a final note, an OBDII scanner should be in every car owner's tool box. You can get cheap bluetooth units that will work with a smartphone for $10-15 or stand alone units for $50. The internet can be helpful for translating the code into a diagnosis.
mouses
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by mouses »

I am clueless about cars, and this is probably not pertinent, but whatever. When my car was in for service a year or so ago, the dealer replaced the gas cap, saying that that was needed for some reason I forget. Perhaps to pass the emissions test.

That gas cap was an invention of the devil. I could not get it off by myself and had to ask whatever male person happened to be around when I got gas. Finally I bought an old style cap off the web.

Now when I get gas, it is not unusual for the check engine light to come on afterwards, until I park the car. Then the next time I drive the car, the light is off and stays off until I get gas again.

(If anyone knows what is going on then, I would be interested to know. Fumes left over that dissipate?)

This is kind of like the caps on gas containers. I had an old gas container for my lawn mower, and it was perfectly usable for years. Then the cap fractured and it turns out the new containers have caps that are supposed to control vapors. The problem is that you can't get gas out of the container now without spilling it. I do not think this is an advance.
Oilburner
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by Oilburner »

The short answer is you can wait to fix this if you do not have to pass an emissions test. You might get slightly reduced fuel economy, but it should not harm your engine.

What this code is telling you is the small heating element (filament) in the heated oxygen sensor failed. The sensor is heated to help it reach operating temperature quicker to begin "closed loop" mode, which further reduces emissions. The oxygen sensor needs to be replaced to fix this (there is a remote possibility it is a wiring problem. You can eliminate or confirm this possibility by checking the suspect oxygen sensor plug/connector using an ohm meter on the correct 2 pins. Ohm meters are inexpensive ($10 - 20 for a basic one and a Google search will bring up YouTube videos on how to do this and which two pins.).

"Bank 1" and "Bank" 2 give the location of the oxygen sensor in question (if this is a 4-cylinder Camry there should be only two and if a v-6 perhaps three oxygen sensors, not sure (I work on VWs and th e"bank" terminology is not used). An internet search on "Camry" and the P-codes you have will tell you which sensor it is. One oxygen sensor is ALWAYS post catalytic converter and one or two (4 or 6 cylinder) are pre-catalytic converter in the exhaust pipe or manifold. Their purpose is to a) trim the fuel mixture, based on the "richness" of the exhaust gases and b) to check the efficiency of the catalytic converter in removing unburnt hydrocarbons (the ECU (control unit) compares the oxygen content values between the pre-and post-catalytic converter sensors).

A Word of Caution: I learned this helping my neighbor with these very same codes on his Camry: The oxygen sensors ARE different depending on if the car has California emissions or US emissions controls. Several states have adopted California's limits, so where the car was bought originally will not tell you. Look at the Emissions Compliance label on the underside of the hood or around the hood latch area. It will be evident, as it will say "Meets California Emissions" or similar wording, or will simply say US Emissions Compliant." Then, when you look up the replacement sensor, it will say in the description "For California Emissions, or "Not for California Emissions". The connectors are different between the two, so if you get the wrong one, you will not be able to plug in its wring connector. Expect to pay $50 - $75 for one. Bosch makes a good aftermarket (OEM) one. Auto parts stores carry them. You do not need the dealer part.

To replace it you may need a special (slotted, deep seating socket $5 to $10 at any auto parts store). Some oxygen sensors are siezed from rust and some are a bear to get to, but give it a shot if you are inclined.
jharkin
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by jharkin »

Few thoughts.


#1 - Those codes are both about failures in the heater circuit for one of the oxygen sensors. The sensors have preheaters in them to bring them up to temp faster on a cold start to start generating a reading. Ignoring this code means that the car will stay on the less efficient open loop fuel map on startup a little longer until the sensor warms naturally from exhaust heat. Its possible you might experience some mild driveability issues (like rough idle or hesitation) when the engine is cold.

If It starts throwing an additional codes indicating the sensor itself is not reading (typically P0162/0163/0164) then that means the sensor has failed altogether (which will noticeably hurt fuel economy).

As mentioned if you are in an emissions state you HAVE to get this fixed to pass your next inspection. Even if not I would get it fixed becuase its just going to keep the CEL lit and if something else brakes you wont know to pull the codes again.



#2 - What is the mechanic planning to do to fix it? The code just says the heater circuit isnt returning a reading. It could be the sensor itself needs replacing, or it could be some of the circuity that connects to it and powers the heater element in the sensor. Do you know if he did additional diagnostics to confirm that it was the sensors itself that are broken or is he just going to slap new ones in there and hope that fixes it?



#3 (Mouses) - The gas cap on a modern car is designed to seal airtight to prevent gas vapors from leaking out. The filler neck assembly is connected to a charcoal canister that is part of the evap emissions system that collects these vapors and condenses them. There is a pressure sensor that will detect the loss of pressure/vacuum from a loose cap and will throw an emissions code.

If your cap broke, get a proper OEM replacement. You will continue to have trouble until you do, and will fail your next emissions inspection.


#4 OBD II scanners. Its not really necessary for people who don't do DIY repairs to own one. You can take your car to any chain auto parts store (Autozone, Advance, Pep boys,etc) and they scan for free.

For those of you that do your own work, I recommend a bluetooth OBD dongle (I use a PLX devices Kiwi) then you can link it to your smartphone and download the Torque Pro app. This allows you to read the codes and look at all the sensor outputs in realtime - you get professional shop level capabilities at a fraction of the cost of a pro level scan tool.
nominalBob
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by nominalBob »

I don't know why "Automatic Transmission" is at the end of both of the codes. That should not be there. One of the downstream O2 sensors' heater circuit has failed. The downstream sensors just monitor the catalytic convertor performance and does not affect the operation of the engine (though Toyota does have a patent on using the downstream sensor for active control, I don't think that is commonly used it if at all.) So you do not need to fix this unless your state requires it to pass emissions inspection. It won't even affect your emissions because if the convertor fails, it will be picked up after the sensor gets to operating temperature. The sensor still works after it gets to operating temperature, which is delayed because the heater is not working. It could also be a wiring or connector issue, though less common.
The problem is if something else goes wrong that would light the MIL, you wouldn't become aware of that immediately.
Edit: I guess "Automatic Transmission" is there because the same failure would give a different code for non-automatic.
Last edited by nominalBob on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oilburner
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by Oilburner »

mouses wrote:I am clueless about cars, and this is probably not pertinent, but whatever. When my car was in for service a year or so ago, the dealer replaced the gas cap, saying that that was needed for some reason I forget. Perhaps to pass the emissions test.

That gas cap was an invention of the devil. I could not get it off by myself and had to ask whatever male person happened to be around when I got gas. Finally I bought an old style cap off the web.

Now when I get gas, it is not unusual for the check engine light to come on afterwards, until I park the car. Then the next time I drive the car, the light is off and stays off until I get gas again.

(If anyone knows what is going on then, I would be interested to know. Fumes left over that dissipate?)

This is kind of like the caps on gas containers. I had an old gas container for my lawn mower, and it was perfectly usable for years. Then the cap fractured and it turns out the new containers have caps that are supposed to control vapors. The problem is that you can't get gas out of the container now without spilling it. I do not think this is an advance.
Part of the emissions check the car performs is for evaporative emissions, i.e., does the fuel system have a leak that lets gasoline vapors escape. The car has a small air pump that pressurizes the fuel tank when the car is started and a pressure sensor that checks that the pressure holds. Usually a check engine light and related evaporative emissions code is because the gas cap was left loose, off, or its seal/gasket is bad.
alshayed
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by alshayed »

I disagree with some of the people saying it won't cause problems. It might not cause the engine itself to get damaged, but the computer does adjust the fuel/air mix based on oxygen sensor data. If that mix is bad, it could damage the catalytic converters which would be a much more expensive repair than the O2 sensor itself. Get a second opinion on it if you want, but I'd get it fixed sooner rather than later.
nominalBob
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by nominalBob »

alshayed wrote:I disagree with some of the people saying it won't cause problems. It might not cause the engine itself to get damaged, but the computer does adjust the fuel/air mix based on oxygen sensor data. If that mix is bad, it could damage the catalytic converters which would be a much more expensive repair than the O2 sensor itself. Get a second opinion on it if you want, but I'd get it fixed sooner rather than later.
What you say is true for an upstream sensor, which this is not.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

nominalBob wrote:I don't know why "Automatic Transmission" is at the end of both of the codes. That should not be there. One of the downstream O2 sensors' heater circuit has failed. The downstream sensors just monitor the catalytic convertor performance and does not affect the operation of the engine (though Toyota does have a patent on using the downstream sensor for active control, I don't think that is commonly used it if at all.) So you do not need to fix this unless your state requires it to pass emissions inspection. It won't even affect your emissions because if the convertor fails, it will be picked up after the sensor gets to operating temperature. The sensor still works after it gets to operating temperature, which is delayed because the heater is not working. It could also be a wiring or connector issue, though less common.
The problem is if something else goes wrong that would light the MIL, you wouldn't become aware of that immediately.
Edit: I guess "Automatic Transmission" is there because the same failure would give a different code for non-automatic.

I would agree except I'd expect he'd have a p0420 code for cat efficiency low. That's super common and fixed with spark plug defoulers modified to bring the downstream O2 sensor out and away from the exhaust flow, lowering the temp it's sensing.
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nominalBob
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by nominalBob »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: I would agree except I'd expect he'd have a p0420 code for cat efficiency low. That's super common and fixed with spark plug defoulers modified to bring the downstream O2 sensor out and away from the exhaust flow, lowering the temp it's sensing.
But the cat efficiency is not low, or the sensor would have pick that up. The sensor must be working to detect P0420, and the sensor is working. If a P0420 condition did exist, the sensor would not pick it up in short trips ( <~5 min.) because of the failed heater.
The fouler works not because of lower temp, but because it averages the O2 reading seen by the sensor. In a failed cat, the O2 level varies in step with the O2 level seen by the corresponding upstream sensor. Averaging the O2 reading is what the cat does when it it working properly.
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saltycaper
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by saltycaper »

Just get it fixed so you can stop wondering about it. $300 sounds reasonable, and it's a very common failure. I replaced an O2 sensor before and am at best of average mechanical inclination. DIY cost me maybe $175 instead of the $400 I was quoted. I only did it myself because when you opened the hood, the sensor was right there with no obstructions. I wouldn't have attempted otherwise. I did need to spray some stuff on the old sensor to get it to loosen up. I borrowed some tools from Advanced or AutoZone or wherever I was and changed it right in the parking lot. They did make me pay for the socket adapter/extender though. If you DIY, don't forget to apply anti-seizing compound on the new part if it instructs you to do so.
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barnaclebob
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by barnaclebob »

This could be a very easy DIY job if your sensor is easy to get too. Pop the hood and look at the exhaust to see if you can reach it yourself. You might be able to fix it for $80 and 20 min of effort.
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sunny_socal
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by sunny_socal »

No rush, it's just an annoying light. You can do this yourself if you want to save a few bucks, but $300 is not that bad. It's a maintenance item, I'd expect those sensors to fail eventually on any car.
an_asker
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by an_asker »

FB01 wrote:Hi,

My Camry has Check Engine Light on since couple of day. The mechanic diagnosed and gave the below details

Code P0057 : Heated Oxygen Sensor(Bank 2 Sensor) - Heater Circuit Low Input - Automatic Transmission
Code P0161 : Heated Oxygen Sensor(Bank 2 Sensor) - Heater Circuit Malfunction - Automatic Transmission

He said 2 sensor are not working and has given a quote of 300 dollars including everything.

Do I need to repair these sensors soon or I can wait for sometime?
What can be reason these started malfunctioning. My car is 9 years old but only 70K miles.

Any suggestion thought is appreciated.

-JR
Do you drive on freeways a lot? A little? Not at all? What about speeds? How fast do you drive it?

The reason I am asking is that my car has the check engine light permanently on as well. When it first came on, that was when I drove on the freeways at about 60 mph ... I observed that my tachonmeter used to read 3000+ rpms, which was much higher than normal (about 1500 rpms). Per my mechanic, the check engine light indicated overdrive issues with the automatic transmission. So, I cannot use it while driving high speeds. As a result, I don't use it on the freeways anymore.
FRANK2009
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by FRANK2009 »

You didn't say how old your Camry is but the Oxy sensors may be covered by warranty for 150k/15 years if you live in a PZEV state. PZEV is Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle. I think it covers California, a lot of the east coast, and probably other states. I'd say spend a few minutes on the Google machine before you spend any money.
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bottlecap
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by bottlecap »

Stuff wears out after 9 years regardless of mileage. While your car likely won't run as efficiently until fixed, it is also unlikely that not fixing it will cause any damage. Nonetheless, I'd get it fixed on the off chance that it will shorten the life of any other component.

I've learned that it's just best to fix these things and not wait.

JT
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lthenderson
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by lthenderson »

I've had those codes before and your vehicle is still drive-able. What I would worry about though if you choose to continue driving it regularly with the check engine light on, in the off chance that a more serious code occurs that could damage your vehicle, you are unlikely to know about it.
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FB01
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by FB01 »

Hi all,

Considering the advice given, I went ahead and repaired it. Check engine light is gone now...

Thanks for all the suggestion...

JR
Thanks, | FB
dbr
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by dbr »

FB01 wrote:Hi all,

Considering the advice given, I went ahead and repaired it. Check engine light is gone now...

Thanks for all the suggestion...

JR
The mean time to the light being on again is probably less than thirty days.
Millennial
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by Millennial »

rustymutt wrote:It's built into the newer cars, and trucks to remind you that you engine needs service.
I think there's some confusion here, this statement is 100% false. Check Engine Lights (CEL) have been present on cars for more than 20 years, and they do not come on at an interval. The CEL is illuminated when there is a specific issue that the car's diagnostic system finds with the way the car is running. Some are serious, and some less so, but there is always a specific reason.

You're thinking of a service interval light, but that's not the subject of this post.
dbr
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Re: Any Car expert out there : Check Engine Light on

Post by dbr »

Millennial wrote:
rustymutt wrote:It's built into the newer cars, and trucks to remind you that you engine needs service.
I think there's some confusion here, this statement is 100% false. Check Engine Lights (CEL) have been present on cars for more than 20 years, and they do not come on at an interval. The CEL is illuminated when there is a specific issue that the car's diagnostic system finds with the way the car is running. Some are serious, and some less so, but there is always a specific reason.

You're thinking of a service interval light, but that's not the subject of this post.
There is always a specific reason but it can indeed happen that the specific reason is sporadic and not traceable to a repairable component. CEL can light on detecting a condition rather than a component failure and some conditions can clear themselves.
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