Timeshares, again

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wahnfried
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Timeshares, again

Post by wahnfried » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:05 pm

dear bogleheads,
We're currently staying in Maui (Hyatt) and of course we attended the ubiquitous timeshare promotions , both from Hyatt and Marriott .
I managed to say no and walked away unscathed , but it sounds awfully tempting/attractive .
What are your thoughts ?

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:17 pm

You did not walk away unscathed if you're feeling tempted. Bad idea.

123
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by 123 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:21 pm

If you planned ahead on the presentation I hope you had a disposable phone number to give them for enrollment etc. Whatever phone number they have will go on a list of potential future customers to be shared with who knows who else. Don't worry you'll be given plenty of chances to buy a timeshare again. (Even if they don't have a phone number they'll track you down, that's what the internet is for these days.)
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.

letsgobobby
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:39 pm

I'm happy to give them my number, they keep calling and offering great deals for hotel stays, like 5 nights at Hilton Waikoloa with a rental minivan for around $500, 5 nights at Westin Kaanapali with a rental car for $700, 5 nights at Westin Princeville Kauai with a rental car, and so on. I think we've done 4 of these over the years. Totally worth it. But never buy one of these from a developer. Buy resale for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price, or rent from other owners like at tug2 dot net and redweek dot com. We're going to Hilton Hawaiian Village for a week in October for $400 per night, not bad for a 2 BR 2 BA on Waikiki and I didn't have to take ownership of the unit to do it.

lazydavid
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by lazydavid » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:16 pm

letsgobobby wrote:Buy resale for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price
Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.

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Watty
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Watty » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:25 pm

I just looked at eBay and there are 469 timeshares for sale for a dollar or less.

Be careful.

barnaclebob
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by barnaclebob » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:40 pm

Timeshares are prepaid and forced vacations.

The only people on here that have been satisfied with them are those that have been happy going to the same place every year forever. Or some that are happy on the Disney money extraction machine.

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stratton
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by stratton » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:57 pm

People that inherit timeshare have been known to disclaim them, "No, I don't want it."

That's what I'd do if I somehow inherited one or someone tried to give me one.

Paul
...and then Buffy staked Edward. The end.

NMJack
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by NMJack » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:10 am

Timeshares!! hahahahaha

I read an article recently that suggested that the only reliable way to get out of a timeshare contract is to die. I think the article is correct.

"Managed to say no?" Run!!!

I killed an afternoon in Vegas a few years ago by agreeing to participate in a timeshare pitch. Those clowns didn't know what they were dealing with. I have no emotion. I am totally analytical. I rarely spend $100 without days of thought (hyper boglehead?). They thought they could play a fancy video and get me to sign up for a lifetime commitment in a few short hours??

I took their free lunch. I took their free show tickets. I took their $50 match play in the casino (turned it into about 53 real bucks playing video blackjack, how bout that!).

My assigned sponsor was great. He was a really smart guy and quickly figured out that we weren't buying. We proceeded to have fun walking through the various steps and I actually felt a bit sorry for wasting his time. I think he sensed that as he let me know, "hey, don't worry, you're almost done here." Great guy. Crappy business.

These outfits are thieves. If you can't walk in like I did, then run away (fast).

Personally, it was a lot of fun and I scored some cash, show tickets, food and priceless entertainment. That is the ONLY way to engage a timeshare pitch.

Now you've got me looking forward to doing it again.... 8-) :sharebeer

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peterinjapan
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by peterinjapan » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:24 am

Personally, the only timeshare worth looking at is sub-letting from some poor chump who fell for it, on a one-time basis. I plan to do this with those Disneyworld timeshares someday.

My motto is, if some company has set up a complex network of employees to push something, be it car leases or timeshares or whatever, they're doing it for a reason. Therefore, it's in their best interests and not yours, so don't under any circumstances agree.

letsgobobby
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:54 am

lazydavid wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:Buy resale for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price
Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.
Not for Marriott, Westin, or Hilton. Those are 40-60% typically, and lower than that are subject to right of first refusal by the developers.

For instance, list price for a 2/2 at HHV might be $40k-$90k depending on week, view, etc. You will not find those for $500, or $2400. The cheapest on the resale market last I looked was around $20k and it was off season, city view.

If you will be very happy going to the same place at the same time every year (or every other year if you have an EOY deed) then a resale timeshare can be a good deal for you. We've done much better combining rentals and specials from the developers.

traveltoomuch
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by traveltoomuch » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:59 am

barnaclebob wrote:Timeshares are prepaid and forced vacations.

The only people on here that have been satisfied with them are those that have been happy going to the same place every year forever.
Not only do I not want to go back to the same place every year, I don't want to commit to dates many, many months in advance.

I bit on one of Hilton's teaser packages some years ago, only to find that among the (undisclosed) terms for the teaser was "book X days/weeks in advance". That's not nearly as restrictive as a real timeshare, and it's still more than I want. I want the flexibility to plan a trip for next week or the week after next.

neilpilot
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by neilpilot » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:14 am

barnaclebob wrote:Timeshares are prepaid and forced vacations.

The only people on here that have been satisfied with them are those that have been happy going to the same place every year forever. Or some that are happy on the Disney money extraction machine.
Well we've owned 2 weeks at the same resort at Hilton Head for many years, and are happy with them. Bought as resales. We go to HHI maybe 1 week every 2 years. The other 3 weeks the past 2 years have been in England and Spain. Recent exchanges have also been to Portugal, China. St Marteen, Dominican Republic and Paris. Has worked well for us. And the dates are all over the place, when we wanted to travel.

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Toons
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Toons » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:16 am

Food For Thought....
Just Sayin,,,,,,,, :mrgreen:

Timeshares

https://investorjunkie.com/91/why-buyin ... -bad-idea/
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee

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cfs
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by cfs » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:48 am

Remember Nancy.

No way no how. When tempted to get involved in timeshares just remember Nancy Reagan and . . . JUST SAY NO!

Thanks for reading.
~ Your Money, Your Portfolio, Your Decision ~

SimonJester
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by SimonJester » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:20 am

letsgobobby wrote:I'm happy to give them my number, they keep calling and offering great deals for hotel stays, like 5 nights at Hilton Waikoloa with a rental minivan for around $500, 5 nights at Westin Kaanapali with a rental car for $700, 5 nights at Westin Princeville Kauai with a rental car, and so on. I think we've done 4 of these over the years. Totally worth it. But never buy one of these from a developer. Buy resale for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price, or rent from other owners like at tug2 dot net and redweek dot com. We're going to Hilton Hawaiian Village for a week in October for $400 per night, not bad for a 2 BR 2 BA on Waikiki and I didn't have to take ownership of the unit to do it.

Goto enough of these presentations and eventually you will be a timeshare owner...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:40 am

SimonJester wrote: Goto enough of these presentations and eventually you will be a timeshare owner...
Nope

When first married, my wife and I went to a different island every year and attended at least one time share presentation to get the restaurant/speedboat/cash/whatever prize and the free lunch. At the end of one hard sell, the sales person threw out the "Is there anything that would get you to buy today?". I said no. He complained that if we were not even open to buying, we should say so at the start of the presentation so he could move on to the next people. We went to another timeshare the next year following a promo handed to us as we entered at the airport. They'd give us a restaurant voucher for some $$ and pay for the taxi. Following the last salesman's plea, as we walked from the welcome center to start our tour, the salesman asked "If I can show you how to save money and vacation every year, would you consider that?". Obvious first question to get us to say yes to a series of questions. I said no. He stopped. "So why did you come?" "Because your airport promo said to come and get free restaurant voucher". He walked into the office in a huff. Came back with our restaurant voucher and $10 taxi fare.....all in change. I laughed and we walked to our rental car.

We've never bought a time share, ever. Never considered one ever. I will say that those in Aruba are the softest sell of any we ever went on. Also the easiest for us. They ask why we won't consider buying and I reply that my parents had 12 weeks in a 3000 sq ft beachfront unit at Costa Linda and we could stay for free. What are they going to say to that? We finish our sandwiches, get the t shirts and restaurant voucher and go on our way.

We've been to several dozen time share presentations. Never once tempted to buy anything.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:00 am

We don't take that many vacations, and we will die someday. I'm not wasting any of our precious time on being talked at by someone who wants to sell us something we don't need. The thought is as bizarre as watching infomercials for hours; would you do that at any time, much less on vacation?

Years ago, before I learned better, I tried to sell timeshares as part of an eBay consignment business. I literally could not give them away. Maybe some are worth $20k, but the ones I got would go on auction at $1,no reserve, and not get a bid.

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HomerJ
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by HomerJ » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:21 am

lazydavid wrote:Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.
They can, and will, raise maintenance fees any time they want. My wife owned a timeshare before I met her. We used it a few times, traded it for other locations, etc. But all the fees kept going up, and eventually it cost just as much or more than just renting a place for a week.

She sold it for a big loss (because you have to find another sucker who is willing to pay those maintenance fees, and you don't have a team of salesmen like they do)

That's why timeshares are, in general, a terrible idea.

Ron Ronnerson
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:18 am

I've gone to a bunch of timeshare presentations for the free stuff and money. I've never been tempted to buy and just consider timeshare presentations a potential source of income. I tell them that I want to reserve the option to never go on a vacation again so can't commit to a timeshare. I also tell them I don't like to spend money but instead receive it; I say that I am open to the prospect of them writing me a check and giving me some money as that would make me happy. I do this politely. They usually look confused or shocked. Some have just sent me off quickly with my reward in hand. There have been others who kept at it a while longer with a look of frustration but eventually realized that nothing would work and finally gave up.

If the reward is worth the time I have to spend in their office plus travel time, I sign up for the presentation. Under no circumstances would I buy. There is nothing that they could say. However, I will happily take their gifts - which, by the way, are being funded directly from those who have bought a timeshare from them.

If you might be tempted to buy, I would not go to a timeshare presentation again. They are looking for that crack. I do realize there are exceptions to the rule and that some people love their timeshares. Most people who buy end up regretting the purchase. I mean this is a thing you sometimes can't even give away after you've bought it. That should say something.

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Watty
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Watty » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:29 pm

NMJack wrote:I read an article recently that suggested that the only reliable way to get out of a timeshare contract is to die. I think the article is correct.
Probably not, I would expect for them to just come after the estate for all the ongoing fees.

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Nicolas
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Nicolas » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:15 pm

We did the timeshare presentation twice, just for the free hotel nights. We never bought anything. But we won't do it again as it's just not worth the unpleasant scene when we refuse to buy. I can afford to pay the full price of a hotel stay now anyway.
There’s many a slip ‘twixt the cup and the lip.

michaeljc70
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by michaeljc70 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:17 pm

HomerJ wrote:
lazydavid wrote:Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.
They can, and will, raise maintenance fees any time they want. My wife owned a timeshare before I met her. We used it a few times, traded it for other locations, etc. But all the fees kept going up, and eventually it cost just as much or more than just renting a place for a week.

She sold it for a big loss (because you have to find another sucker who is willing to pay those maintenance fees, and you don't have a team of salesmen like they do)

That's why timeshares are, in general, a terrible idea.
Unlike a condominium association, timeshare owners have virtually no say in the running of the property. You are at the developer's mercy.

Some presentations I have been to, they push the "you can exchange it and go anywhere" stuff. The fees are almost as much as staying at a hotel!

neilpilot
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by neilpilot » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:24 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:The fees are almost as much as staying at a hotel!
Yes they are almost as much as a hotel, but way less than a 2-bedroom hotel suite with your own kitchen.

Shallowpockets
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Shallowpockets » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:15 pm

Why would anyone ever take up their vacation time by going to a timeshare presentation just to get something for free.
I spent a lot of time arranging my life so that retirement would be good. There is absolutely no reason for me to try and get a free meal, or tickets, or anything in exchange for sitting down to a boring and aggressive salesman talking at me when I should be out doing what I had planned (or nothing at all).

Timeshares, when they first came out, were a significant piece of oneupmanship. Yeah, sure, we have a timeshare in the Cayman Islands. We're almost like locals.
Hows that thing going for you now?

denovo
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by denovo » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:19 pm

cfs wrote:Remember Nancy.

No way no how. When tempted to get involved in timeshares just remember Nancy Reagan and . . . JUST SAY NO!

Thanks for reading.
+1

letsgobobby
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:57 pm

Shallowpockets wrote:Why would anyone ever take up their vacation time by going to a timeshare presentation just to get something for free.
I spent a lot of time arranging my life so that retirement would be good. There is absolutely no reason for me to try and get a free meal, or tickets, or anything in exchange for sitting down to a boring and aggressive salesman talking at me when I should be out doing what I had planned (or nothing at all).

Timeshares, when they first came out, were a significant piece of oneupmanship. Yeah, sure, we have a timeshare in the Cayman Islands. We're almost like locals.
Hows that thing going for you now?
It's more than a free meal.

As an example, we stayed at the Westin Kaanapali for 5 nights for $700 including a rental car. The car would have been $200 on its own so that was about $100 per night in the Westin timeshare - probably worth $300 per night considering the comparable cost of a straight Westin Hotel room in the same area, or $400-$500 per night for the true timeshares. So that's a saving of $200-$400 per night, or $1000-$2000 for 5 nights, for a presentation. That's a pretty good ROI. In this particular case, the presentation was optional (not even required) and we would have received an additional $100 for going - we didn't.

In some cases the presentation is required. As soon as you mention tug2.net to the salesperson, they sigh and more or less give up.

Tug2.net is like the bogleheads.org of timeshares. How to do it right, how to do it cheapest, how not to get burned by a salesperson.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:30 pm

I attended a sales pitch once, around two decades ago, which surprised me by being one-on-two. I was vacationing with an old friend who, by that time, lived hundreds of miles away from me. The salesperson assumed we were married. I explained we weren't and weren't going to be. It's nearly always a good idea to violate salespeoples' expectations.

I told the person we were only there for the freebies, that it was worth it to us (as we'd previously agreed) to spend that amount of time for them, but there were no circumstances under which either of us would buy the timeshare. The person started the canned presentation.

It included an entirely invalid financial analysis, which the person didn't understand so there was no point arguing. Anyhow, salespeople are trained to move into the objection-handling phase, in which the customer gives reasons not to buy, so the person can, as the term is, handle them. The point is to create a social expectation that your saying "I won't buy because" translates to "I would buy if." That's the trick. It works very well on people who don't know it. Now everybody reading does.

The whole thing was structured like a confidence game, in which the faux analysis showed we would be pulling something over on the very company that was trying to sell the timeshare to us in the first place.

A long interval was set aside for objection handling, but what with our not raising any, and simply repeating we wouldn't buy, the person, after less than half the stated time, got the manager to give us each the cash and get us out of there.

Nisiprius has posted calling it trying to steal cheese from a mousetrap, and perhaps he's correct. I wouldn't do it again because I didn't feel right wasting the time of somebody so desperate for any job they stoop to doing such a thing in the first place. When I think what it would have to come to for me to apply, I shudder.

My wasting their time won't make a significant dent in the number of rubes who fall for the con. As with picking pockets I'm against it, but like princes, potentates, democratic governments, and police forces everywhere I am powerless to end it, so all I can do is render myself a bad mark.

PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

michaeljc70
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by michaeljc70 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:40 pm

Shallowpockets wrote:Why would anyone ever take up their vacation time by going to a timeshare presentation just to get something for free.
I spent a lot of time arranging my life so that retirement would be good. There is absolutely no reason for me to try and get a free meal, or tickets, or anything in exchange for sitting down to a boring and aggressive salesman talking at me when I should be out doing what I had planned (or nothing at all).

Timeshares, when they first came out, were a significant piece of oneupmanship. Yeah, sure, we have a timeshare in the Cayman Islands. We're almost like locals.
Hows that thing going for you now?
Speaking for myself, but I'm sure others are the same, when I went I was much younger and a free meal or whatever meant something because I didn't have a lot of money. A lot of Bogleheads are frugal so that is another reason. Timeshares also tend to be in resort areas so you are not missing seeing the Eiffel Tower going to a 1 or 2 hour presentation.

island_girl
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by island_girl » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:11 pm

Do NOT consider purchasing a timeshare. After my father retired, my parents bought five timeshares over the years (two Pueblo Bonito timeshares in Mexico, one at Wapato Point in E. WA, one Wyndham timeshare in Branson, MO and one Wyndham timeshare in SF). As a family we enjoyed some vacations at the Wapato unit as it was only 2.5 hours of where most of us lived. They never used the Branson timeshare and tried unsuccessfully to sell it several times. My parents enjoyed a few years of using the Mexico units (one in Cabo and one in Mazatlan) until my father passed away 7 years ago. My mother continued to use the Cabo unit, but not the others, but continued to pay maintenance fees until she passed away two years ago. She did do some trading of points through Wyndham and RCI to extend her time in Cabo and do a couple of cruises, but I believe she had to pay additional $ even to do that. I was the PR for her estate and had to deal with trying to get rid of the timeshares. My siblings and I were not interested in them (one of my sisters spends 3 months a year at her timeshares in Cabo already that she ended up purchasing by attending those presentations while staying with my Mom in her Cabo unit).
Being responsible for handling my mother's estate, I investigated trying to sell the units, but quickly learned how difficult it is to sell timeshares on the secondary market. I tried to give them away, but no one was interested. So, I contacted the timeshare agencies to return the units. The Wapato unit was easy to return due to death and probate in same state (WA). The Mexico units took lots of phone calls and emails, but both were finally returned at no cost to the estate. The two Wyndham timeshares were the most difficult. They consistently provided bad information, would lose legal documents that I sent, didn't return phone calls or respond to emails. I was constantly transferred between departments. I finally got in touch with someone that was willing to help me at Wyndham and after several false starts due to bad information they were provided by their own company, I ended up going through a probate process in both states to return the units. I had to use and pay for attorney services in both states to get this done, meanwhile having to pay an additional year of maintenance fees. I burned a lot of hours and had many sleepless nights in fear of not being able to unload these two units. It took me over a year to get rid of all the timeshares. I could not close out the estate and disburse inheritance $ until I could prove the title for the units were out of my mother's name. My parents were middle class and unfortunately were an easy target for these companies. They paid full price for each of the timeshares and upgraded the Mexico units several times paying additional $. I was so sad to see how much money they spent on the units while going through the paperwork and documents. They were definitely taken advantage of by these timeshare companies. I know that my parents would have been saddened to see the time, energy and heartache I went through to get rid of these units.
Please think about the long term consequences of buying a timeshare. They are boat anchors.

NMJack
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by NMJack » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:24 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Goto enough of these presentations and eventually you will be a timeshare owner...
No way. This may be true of a large portion of the population, but there are likely many of us who are totally immune. We're just not weak to this sort of thing.

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ruralavalon
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by ruralavalon » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:34 pm

Never ever under any circumstances buy a timeshare from the developer. It's always a very bad deal.

If you buy on the secondary market, do so only at a very deep discount and only if you intend to use it every year. We bought a timeshare on Maui on the secondary market at a good price, used it for 20 years, and enjoyed it very much.
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inbox788
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by inbox788 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:15 am

Watty wrote:I just looked at eBay and there are 469 timeshares for sale for a dollar or less.

Be careful.
They're worth less than a dollar. You'll have to pay to get rid of it, and in the meantime, you're stuck with paying annual maintain fees and more. Just hope the next one time adjustment isn't due soon. Most, if not all, of these are with companies you can't walk away from. Don't do it!

Valuethinker
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:21 am

wahnfried wrote:dear bogleheads,
We're currently staying in Maui (Hyatt) and of course we attended the ubiquitous timeshare promotions , both from Hyatt and Marriott .
I managed to say no and walked away unscathed , but it sounds awfully tempting/attractive .
What are your thoughts ?
Do not. Don't. Don't go there. Bad idea.

My brief experience of cult-like behaviour is that, given enough time, they can get anyone.

Timeshare sales are like cults. Given enough time, they will get you.

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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:24 am

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:I attended a sales pitch once, around two decades ago, which surprised me by being one-on-two. I was vacationing with an old friend who, by that time, lived hundreds of miles away from me. The salesperson assumed we were married. I explained we weren't and weren't going to be. It's nearly always a good idea to violate salespeoples' expectations.

I told the person we were only there for the freebies, that it was worth it to us (as we'd previously agreed) to spend that amount of time for them, but there were no circumstances under which either of us would buy the timeshare. The person started the canned presentation.

It included an entirely invalid financial analysis, which the person didn't understand so there was no point arguing. Anyhow, salespeople are trained to move into the objection-handling phase, in which the customer gives reasons not to buy, so the person can, as the term is, handle them. The point is to create a social expectation that your saying "I won't buy because" translates to "I would buy if." That's the trick. It works very well on people who don't know it. Now everybody reading does.

The whole thing was structured like a confidence game, in which the faux analysis showed we would be pulling something over on the very company that was trying to sell the timeshare to us in the first place.

A long interval was set aside for objection handling, but what with our not raising any, and simply repeating we wouldn't buy, the person, after less than half the stated time, got the manager to give us each the cash and get us out of there.

Nisiprius has posted calling it trying to steal cheese from a mousetrap, and perhaps he's correct. I wouldn't do it again because I didn't feel right wasting the time of somebody so desperate for any job they stoop to doing such a thing in the first place. When I think what it would have to come to for me to apply, I shudder.

My wasting their time won't make a significant dent in the number of rubes who fall for the con. As with picking pockets I'm against it, but like princes, potentates, democratic governments, and police forces everywhere I am powerless to end it, so all I can do is render myself a bad mark.

PJW
Support all of the above

The Nisiprius "trying to steal cheese from a mousetrap" is a classic line.

These salespeople do this every day, know all the resistance points and how to overcome them. You? The Mark? You do this maybe 2-3 times in a lifetime.

SwampDonkey
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by SwampDonkey » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:28 am

We purchased a timeshare on ebay a few years ago. So far, we've been very happy with it. We've used their various locations for both vacations and as a home base when across the country on business. The hotels are always much nicer with separate bedrooms from the living rooms (nearly a "must have" when travelling with little kids).

Bottom line, we'd do it all over again.

spitty
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by spitty » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:06 am

We owned in Cancun for probably 12 years and maintenance fees will gradually creep up. And since you will want to exchange your weeks, membership in a company like RCI is necessary--requiring a yearly fee--and each exchange you do requires a fee. You'll also usually want to visit a 5-star resort elsewhere which means you need to own a 5-star to have good "exchange power". And switching to a 5-star in peak season may still be tough! We were lucky to sell out about 10 years ago and have since bought several individual weeks at www.tug2.com. The latter is a great site that also has unit listings for sale. So only consider buying if you can get a fire sale price, and even then I wouldn't---too many other fees, not easy to sell, and you can go almost anywhere renting from those who are stuck with their units! Final thought is airfare. You'll buy "air only" tickets which means no package deals. When StL-Cancun got up to $700 in Feb, that was the wake-up call.

Valuethinker
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:45 am

From this discussion:

the *owner* of the unit has an undefined and uncapped liability to fees, which can increase?

Therefore you are taking on an unquantifiable liability. For which you can be sued if you fail to pay? Ie it has recourse. And you may not be able to dispose of it even at zero price.

*Never* take on an unquantifiable liability. Most especially (primarily) if it has recourse to youl

It's one of the first laws of personal finance.

Google "Lloyds Names scandal" (or read the piece by Mervyn Bragg, in The New Yorker, Letters from London, back in the 1990s).

http://www.truthaboutlloyds.com/fraud/timeline.html

one should understand the fraud was alleged, not proven-- many or most of the plaintiffs are no doubt now dead. The timeline above is not complete post 1997. But see how many Americans were swept up in this.

wahnfried
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by wahnfried » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:23 am

thank you everybody for your thoughts,
the urge is subsiding , not the least due to your warnings!
appreciative, wahnfried

lazydavid
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by lazydavid » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:55 am

letsgobobby wrote:
lazydavid wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:Buy resale for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price
Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.
Not for Marriott, Westin, or Hilton. Those are 40-60% typically, and lower than that are subject to right of first refusal by the developers.

For instance, list price for a 2/2 at HHV might be $40k-$90k depending on week, view, etc. You will not find those for $500, or $2400. The cheapest on the resale market last I looked was around $20k and it was off season, city view.
Then don't buy those properties. All are subject to right of first refusal, but in practice they never do. They don't want the inventory back. But I think you're mistaken. Here are a few Hilton contracts for a dollar (there are a lot more, and tons more if you're willing to spend a few hundred or few thousand):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hilton-Points-S ... OSwSdZWdEz~
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-400-HILTON-PO ... SwJcZWdGz2
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3BR-Rci-POINTS- ... SwboVXO3DX

Here are a few Marrotts for a dollar (there are a lot more, and tons more if you're willing to spend a few hundred or few thousand):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-Marriotts-S ... Sw~otWgurX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-St ... Sw9mFWM7fo
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARRIOTTS-Grand ... SwAPlXhoRS

Here are a few Westins for a dollar:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-BEDROOM-Avo ... SwqrtWmS0e
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-WESTIN-Dese ... SwuR5XP14R

I found less than 30 total Westin contracts for sale, which is why there were only two for a buck.

I stand by my statement that paying even high 4-figure sums for a resale is foolishness, let alone 5 figures.
letsgobobby wrote:If you will be very happy going to the same place at the same time every year (or every other year if you have an EOY deed) then a resale timeshare can be a good deal for you. We've done much better combining rentals and specials from the developers.
This is nonsense. I've only ever been to one of the three locations I've owned at--now only own two, but still haven't been to the second in the 8 years I've owned it. So far this year I or my parents (joint owners) have gone to or have future bookings for seven different locations, plus another half-dozen through RCI exchanges. Only two of those ~13 locations have either of us ever owned.

mikep
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by mikep » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:02 am

Marriott has been actively buying through first right of refusal, they want to convert as much possible inventory to the point system.

lazydavid
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by lazydavid » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:08 am

HomerJ wrote:
lazydavid wrote:Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.
They can, and will, raise maintenance fees any time they want. My wife owned a timeshare before I met her. We used it a few times, traded it for other locations, etc. But all the fees kept going up, and eventually it cost just as much or more than just renting a place for a week.

She sold it for a big loss (because you have to find another sucker who is willing to pay those maintenance fees, and you don't have a team of salesmen like they do)

That's why timeshares are, in general, a terrible idea.
While this is true, and ours have gone up very slightly every couple of years, at well-run resorts they are based on ACTUAL operating costs. The two we've chosen, in Las Vegas and Tennessee, are long-established properties with low operating costs and limited natural disaster risk, which is a frequent cause of "surprise" increases. I purposely avoided very cheap contracts in places like Myrtle Beach (and got rid of my one in Florida) for exactly this reason. MF are both high and have a history of increasing by large amounts.

Selling for a big loss generally only applies to contracts you buy from a developer. Since resales are cheap to begin with, the "loss" is already baked in at the price you paid. Maybe you can sell it for a bit more, perhaps a bit less. But there's no way of losing tens of thousands of dollars when you sell something you purchased for hundreds of dollars.

ponyboy
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by ponyboy » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:14 am

My in laws thought it would be a great idea to own a timeshare...they purchased for the low price of around $15k directly from a resort in hilton head.

Fast forward 5 years and they were doing everything in their power to get out of this great contract that they found themselves in. It required then hiring a lawyer...but they did get out of the contract. Its the only time ive heard of someone successfully getting rid of a timeshare without death or selling it.

letsgobobby
Posts: 10973
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:46 pm

lazydavid wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:
lazydavid wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:Buy resale for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price
Resales should be purchased for pennies on the dollar, not quarters. The more expensive of our two resales cost us $2400, and I think we overpaid, but I specifically wanted that property due to the low Maintenance fees, and got almost a full year of MF prepaid as part of the deal. List price for that contract from the developer is $110k.
Not for Marriott, Westin, or Hilton. Those are 40-60% typically, and lower than that are subject to right of first refusal by the developers.

For instance, list price for a 2/2 at HHV might be $40k-$90k depending on week, view, etc. You will not find those for $500, or $2400. The cheapest on the resale market last I looked was around $20k and it was off season, city view.
Then don't buy those properties. All are subject to right of first refusal, but in practice they never do. They don't want the inventory back. But I think you're mistaken. Here are a few Hilton contracts for a dollar (there are a lot more, and tons more if you're willing to spend a few hundred or few thousand):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hilton-Points-S ... OSwSdZWdEz~
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-400-HILTON-PO ... SwJcZWdGz2
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3BR-Rci-POINTS- ... SwboVXO3DX

Here are a few Marrotts for a dollar (there are a lot more, and tons more if you're willing to spend a few hundred or few thousand):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-Marriotts-S ... Sw~otWgurX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-St ... Sw9mFWM7fo
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARRIOTTS-Grand ... SwAPlXhoRS

Here are a few Westins for a dollar:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-BEDROOM-Avo ... SwqrtWmS0e
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-WESTIN-Dese ... SwuR5XP14R

I found less than 30 total Westin contracts for sale, which is why there were only two for a buck.

I stand by my statement that paying even high 4-figure sums for a resale is foolishness, let alone 5 figures.
letsgobobby wrote:If you will be very happy going to the same place at the same time every year (or every other year if you have an EOY deed) then a resale timeshare can be a good deal for you. We've done much better combining rentals and specials from the developers.
This is nonsense. I've only ever been to one of the three locations I've owned at--now only own two, but still haven't been to the second in the 8 years I've owned it. So far this year I or my parents (joint owners) have gone to or have future bookings for seven different locations, plus another half-dozen through RCI exchanges. Only two of those ~13 locations have either of us ever owned.
Lazydavid, you should retake Logic. The fact that you succeed owning and going elsewhere is not the negation of my statement that if you can be happy going to the same place annually then a timeshare can be a good fit for you. There are other ways to successfully and happily own.

Lazydavid, perhaps you should go back and study how Ebay works. You have linked to be a number of unsuccessful posted items with a starting bid of a dollar. Can you link me to any completed auctions at those prices?

lazydavid
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by lazydavid » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:17 pm

letsgobobby wrote: Lazydavid, you should retake Logic. The fact that you succeed owning and going elsewhere is not the negation of my statement that if you can be happy going to the same place annually then a timeshare can be a good fit for you. There are other ways to successfully and happily own.
Now you're being obtuse. There was a clear implication in your statement that going to the same place every year was the only way to be happy, especially coming just a few posts after barnaclebob said this explicitly. I could have quoted his post also, but chose not to. Consider that a flaw in logic if you wish. But we can agree to disagree.
letsgobobby wrote:Lazydavid, perhaps you should go back and study how Ebay works. You have linked to be a number of unsuccessful posted items with a starting bid of a dollar. Can you link me to any completed auctions at those prices?
They were "closing soon" when I posted them, and apparently had ended without sale by the time you followed the links. To revisit the topic of logic, it's even more damning that they couldn't find a buyer at a measly $1, if the "right price" was indeed 1/3 to 2/3 of retail. You or I or anyone could have bought them for $1. Try these, all of which closed for under $25 (winning bid in parens):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VACATION-VILLAG ... Swq19XB8Tf ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westin-Mission- ... SwHnFVpoyh ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Westin-Miss ... SwQupXWbN8 ($19)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westin-Kierland ... SwFNZWvPj2 ($10.50)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westin-RIVERFRO ... Sw3YNXX9tR ($2.25, odd year)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Westin-Miss ... SwQupXWbN8 ($20.50)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... Sws4JW8aVL ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... SwzgRWwie8 ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Bedroom-MAR ... SwsFpWR2GM ($11.01 after 12 bids)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... Sws4JW8aVL ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... SwzgRWwie8 ($1)

All are from the first page of "Sold listings" results for the relevant developer name, for searches exectued at approximately 10:15pm Central Time on August 1, 2016. To be fair, there were certainly many in the hundreds or even low thousands. But not many for much more than $3k, and very few for tens of thousands.

Are you done with the condescension?

letsgobobby
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:24 pm

lazydavid wrote:
letsgobobby wrote: Lazydavid, you should retake Logic. The fact that you succeed owning and going elsewhere is not the negation of my statement that if you can be happy going to the same place annually then a timeshare can be a good fit for you. There are other ways to successfully and happily own.
Now you're being obtuse. There was a clear implication in your statement that going to the same place every year was the only way to be happy, especially coming just a few posts after barnaclebob said this explicitly. I could have quoted his post also, but chose not to. Consider that a flaw in logic if you wish. But we can agree to disagree.
letsgobobby wrote:Lazydavid, perhaps you should go back and study how Ebay works. You have linked to be a number of unsuccessful posted items with a starting bid of a dollar. Can you link me to any completed auctions at those prices?
They were "closing soon" when I posted them, and apparently had ended without sale by the time you followed the links. To revisit the topic of logic, it's even more damning that they couldn't find a buyer at a measly $1, if the "right price" was indeed 1/3 to 2/3 of retail. You or I or anyone could have bought them for $1. Try these, all of which closed for under $25 (winning bid in parens):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VACATION-VILLAG ... Swq19XB8Tf ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westin-Mission- ... SwHnFVpoyh ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Westin-Miss ... SwQupXWbN8 ($19)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westin-Kierland ... SwFNZWvPj2 ($10.50)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Westin-RIVERFRO ... Sw3YNXX9tR ($2.25, odd year)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Westin-Miss ... SwQupXWbN8 ($20.50)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... Sws4JW8aVL ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... SwzgRWwie8 ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Bedroom-MAR ... SwsFpWR2GM ($11.01 after 12 bids)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... Sws4JW8aVL ($1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2BR-MARRIOTT-Hi ... SwzgRWwie8 ($1)

All are from the first page of "Sold listings" results for the relevant developer name, for searches exectued at approximately 10:15pm Central Time on August 1, 2016. To be fair, there were certainly many in the hundreds or even low thousands. But not many for much more than $3k, and very few for tens of thousands.

Are you done with the condescension?
lazydavid,

Do you know what right of first refusal is?

ROFR on Westin Kaanapali is in the mid $30,000 to low $40,000 range.

Can't speak for the others off hand, but it is highly unlikely to be have been $1, or $25.

inbox788
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by inbox788 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:56 am

letsgobobby wrote:ROFR on Westin Kaanapali is in the mid $30,000 to low $40,000 range.

Can't speak for the others off hand, but it is highly unlikely to be have been $1, or $25.
No cheap ones yet, but these things cost $60-80k new, and when they first came out, I think maintenance fees and taxes were $1000-2000/year and now they're over $3000. Won't be long before they're $4000/year and you'll see the ROFR go down. When the fees go above $5000 (I'm guessing less than a decade), see how much they're worth and have depreciated by then.

letsgobobby
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:03 am

inbox788 wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:ROFR on Westin Kaanapali is in the mid $30,000 to low $40,000 range.

Can't speak for the others off hand, but it is highly unlikely to be have been $1, or $25.
No cheap ones yet, but these things cost $60-80k new, and when they first came out, I think maintenance fees and taxes were $1000-2000/year and now they're over $3000. Won't be long before they're $4000/year and you'll see the ROFR go down. When the fees go above $5000 (I'm guessing less than a decade), see how much they're worth and have depreciated by then.
very hard to predict the future, but ROFR on WKOVR is going up, not down.

I'm paying almost $3000 to rent HHV for 1 week. I had to work pretty hard to get the week I wanted and it was the only unit available that particular week (not a peak week). The advantage of ownership is you get exactly the week you want, every week, forever. In other words, a MF of $3000 or even $4000 may be worth it to some who want the guarantee of a certain week at a certain location. I'm sure there is a price above which that is not true.

However, MFs are not as high as you say. HHV is $1600 this year for a 2/2. Some places are under $1000:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233428

inbox788
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by inbox788 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:19 am

letsgobobby wrote:very hard to predict the future, but ROFR on WKOVR is going up, not down.

I'm paying almost $3000 to rent HHV for 1 week. I had to work pretty hard to get the week I wanted and it was the only unit available that particular week (not a peak week). The advantage of ownership is you get exactly the week you want, every week, forever. In other words, a MF of $3000 or even $4000 may be worth it to some who want the guarantee of a certain week at a certain location. I'm sure there is a price above which that is not true.

However, MFs are not as high as you say. HHV is $1600 this year for a 2/2. Some places are under $1000:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233428
HHV isn't WKOVR. And $3000 a week seems a little high for HHV. If that's the going rental rate, you might consider buying.
Listing Price $10,500
Maintenance Fees $1,336
http://timeshare-resale.com/resort-list ... 336-14489/

For WKOVR, if you model $40,000 and a 5% opportunity cost, that's $2000+$3000 maintenance, so about $5000 annual ownership cost (and a couple of extra grand for the original buyer).
For HHV, it's more like $500+$1300, or $1800, so renting it for $3000 is good for the owner.

Or if you got one of the units or time periods selling for $40,000 now, then you did good as a renter. http://www.sellmytimesharenow.com/times ... 6247/sale/

You take your chances on the appreciation or depreciation. Where do you track ROFR rates? It goes up and down based on economy, but I think the trend is downward as the property ages and maintenance costs take over. I'm guessing similar to a used car in some ways, eventually bottoming out and then climbing once it's considered a classic. And like many old cars, run of the mill timeshares are just taken out and shot. Prime locations like Hawaii are more like your Mustangs, Porches and Ferraris.

letsgobobby
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Re: Timeshares, again

Post by letsgobobby » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:57 am

I track ROFR and MFs at tug2.net. One proposed strategy is to submit for inspection at the end of a company's fiscal year, when the "ROFR budget" has been used up. No idea if there's viability in that strategy.

That's a pretty nice price on a 2/2 at Lagoon. Mostly they run higher than that, $15k and up. I wonder whether HGVC would exercise ROFR on that unit? You're tempting me... (We have family that lives just 3 miles way so we go almost every year). What has always held me back on timeshares is that I don't tend to plan my trips 12 months in advance. For Hawaii, that's essential (barring luck).

No doubt Hawaii is one of the most popular timeshare locations in the world. People buy there even with the higher MFs because they want guaranteed access in a guaranteed season. My point isn't that most timeshares are a good deal (they're not), almost the opposite - certain locations are prime locations and can be worth the (resale) price to those understanding what they are buying.

Locked