Any Porsche 911 owners here?

[BruDude]

I am waiting for the 997.2 Turbo PDK Cab (Porsche lingo for really fast flappy paddle convertible) to hit the bottom of the depreciation curve. 2010 was the first year for that model. I am guessing about 2018-19 will be about right. This way I can keep my Boglehead credentials and my car guy credentials.

997.2 turbos are holding pretty strong due to PDK availability vs tiptronic on the 997.1's. I'd expect that to continue for a while. Some of the 991 turbos are almost getting to the 997.2 turbo S price range now.

hoping to find time for a test drive in the next day or two. does it sit so low to the ground that getting in and out is a chore? i read the 991.2 sits higher up than before. i get low back issues periodically. also working on getting in better shape

I'm a young guy and will say that it is rather difficult to get in and out of compared to a "normal" car. My dad was interested in 911's until he tried to sit in one and could barely get in and out of it, decided he didn't want to deal with that every day and got a Panamera instead which sits much higher.

i've been in the market for a new car for a while now. i've taken a few sedans out for a test drive (a7, s550, 750i, panamera). i always thought i wanted to get a nice big sedan (2 kids). but now i'm rethinking things and considering the new 911 since my wife has an SUV and we do all our weekend trips in her car. planning for a test drive this week to check it out. if i got a 911, i'd probably get the 4 or 4s given the climate i live in. seems like options really drive the price up.

Options easily increase the cost of a 911 30% or more.

One method is to use the configurator to make the car as desirable as reasonable from your perspective, then prioritize to get the price down to something you'd actually pay. Figure an 8% discount from MSRP. Keep in mind that all options are essentially worthless once the car is registered, so consider higher end models if some of the options you are considering in a baser model come standard.

Expensive options that I got that I never use include ACC, sports chrono, seat ventilation / heating, Bose and the others that I got that I don't even remember what they are. The only must haves IMHO are surround parking assist and lane change assist. Oh, and PDK.

Sport chrono is a must for any PDK car since it gets you the Sport and Sport Plus modes. It's also a huge boost to resale value. Most guys won't even look at a used PDK car that doesn't have SC.


IMO, the most desirable options are Sport Chrono, Sport Exhaust, PDCC, full leather interior (makes a huge difference, I've had both full leather and standard and the standard feels cheap by comparison), and the Aerokit or SportDesign kit. Most cars have the Bose equipped, the Burmester is a lot better but harder to find.

[absolutFinance]

thanks - the new panamera looks great to me too. the interior looks the best to me in comparison to any other car i've looked at and i love the exterior revisions. i was hoping to figure something out by the end of the year but i don't think the panameras start arriving at dealers until january. and i'm guessing it will be some time before they start taking points off MSRP.

[BruDude]

thanks - the new panamera looks great to me too. the interior looks the best to me in comparison to any other car i've looked at and i love the exterior revisions. i was hoping to figure something out by the end of the year but i don't think the panameras start arriving at dealers until january. and i'm guessing it will be some time before they start taking points off MSRP.

If you're buying new, just be aware that Panamera resale value is absolutely terrible. You'll probably lose $30k driving it off the lot. I'd suggest looking at a used Panamera GTS or Turbo instead of buying new...the interior of the current generation is very luxurious with the full leather option. I don't even like the new ones with all the digital screens and stuff instead of actual buttons, I think it's going to look very dated after a few years when new technology comes out and will be hard on resale values, sort of like navigation units in cars from 2000-2010ish.

[erik265]

My lease just ended on 1 2014 911s cabrio nice car white with classic rims and tan leather had to ship up to NY from down south was the only one i could find with combo i liked
retail on it was 127,000 i got a good deal
lease was $1250 a month plus 15,000 down based on a price of 114,000 so got 13,000 off sticker
Only problem porches arent like a toyota its hard to find just the right mix of colors and options that you want
If you can i would build one and wait 3 to 4 months on delivery its best way to get exactly what you want
Def get launch control option its pretty cool
About the car its larger then previous model but its def not a big car I am 6 2 230lbs so seats are snug fit getting in and out of car takes a little effort
I wouldnt want this to be my only car i have an rx450 lexus for every day its alot more comfortable and better in all weather
Pros
its fast off the line esp with launch control around 4 sec because engine is over rear wheels has off the line edge but other fast cars will catch you as you speed up look out for that M4 haha Raced a bunch of cars late night on west side hway in Manhattan its like a big drag strip of exotic cars haha
Handling is exceptional thats where car really has advantage i hear mid engine models might even be a tad better
Alot of fun to drive esp with top down had some great rides going out to Montauk Li on clear nights
Gets attention for sure but its not a show stopper you will need a ferrari italia 348 spyder or Lambo for that haha but thats around $350,000
Back seat small but come in handy at times squeeze a friend back there or a few bags lots of sports cars are 2 seaters I still really love the 2+2 layout

Cons if your a big guy seats are narrow
performance profile tires blow out very easily went through 4 tires in 2 years and expensive $400 front over $500 rear cant remember exactly you will save money going to tire shop but they will have to special order make sure they have tire machine that can fit such a wide tire Porsche wont want you to patch tires even for a nail its really lame but i did it anyways but had to a good place cost me $50 not $500 its bc tires are so thin porsche feels patches can blow out but luckily it didnt
Back seat is a joke con and pro haha

Last but not least girl factor haha
depends on the girl some spoiled girls will prefer a mazerati gran tourismo its bigger inside and has more presence oustide then 911 but its more of a cruiser than a true sports car
but dont worry porche still holds its own esp when u launch off the line and you have top down i recommend putting a cute blonde next to u on a warm summer night she will like it haha

[absolutFinance]

good to know about resale but i keep my cars for a long time. my current car is 11 years old. will probably keep the next one for about as long. i don't drive a ton, 76k on the current one.

the interior cabin on the current panameras feels pretty dated to me. just personal opinion i guess. the major issue is the console software - it's ancient compared to some of the new things out there.

i'm hoping the '17 911 console software system is similar to what the new panameras will have.

[Jack FFR1846]

hoping to find time for a test drive in the next day or two. does it sit so low to the ground that getting in and out is a chore? i read the 991.2 sits higher up than before. i get low back issues periodically. also working on getting in better shape

If you find any Porsche ever made to be difficult to get in/out, never look at any Lotus ever made. The last time I drove a 911 (a 997 4S), I found it to be as close to my old B5 Audi S4 as I could imagine. Like getting in/out of a Chevy Malibu.


I saw you commented on options. While on that same test drive, I looked over the stickers of a number of showroom cars. Several had total MSRP that well over double that of the base price of just the car. Sort of like a 1960's Chevrolet. You want stitching on your optional colored wheel center caps? Sure, just add another $130 to the $343 colored center cap option price.

[c078342]

I'm a young guy and will say that it is rather difficult to get in and out of compared to a "normal" car.

I'm not a young guy -- 67 and not as spry as I once was. Getting in and out of my Boxsters requires a method but I don't find it too difficult. Having the top down makes things easier. I've always thought of entry as being like an aircraft carrier landing -- a controlled crash. You kinda get your right leg in and then fall in. Getting out is a bit more tricky. Move the seat all the way rearward. Open the door fully. The left leg goes out easily, but I kinda have to drag the right one out. Then you just stand up. The driving experience, though, is thoroughly worth it. Buy the 911 cognizant of the fact it's not inexpensive to own, but if you keep the miles reasonable, it's only primarily going to be oil changes. But if you're looking at one 10-15 years old, be aware of the IMS problem.

[BruDude]

good to know about resale but i keep my cars for a long time. my current car is 11 years old. will probably keep the next one for about as long. i don't drive a ton, 76k on the current one.

the interior cabin on the current panameras feels pretty dated to me. just personal opinion i guess. the major issue is the console software - it's ancient compared to some of the new things out there.

i'm hoping the '17 911 console software system is similar to what the new panameras will have.

'17 911 is turbo though....no N/A = no go for me. Need that sweet sweet N/A sound.

[absolutFinance]

I'm a young guy and will say that it is rather difficult to get in and out of compared to a "normal" car.

I'm not a young guy -- 67 and not as spry as I once was. Getting in and out of my Boxsters requires a method but I don't find it too difficult. Having the top down makes things easier. I've always thought of entry as being like an aircraft carrier landing -- a controlled crash. You kinda get your right leg in and then fall in. Getting out is a bit more tricky. Move the seat all the way rearward. Open the door fully. The left leg goes out easily, but I kinda have to drag the right one out. Then you just stand up. The driving experience, though, is thoroughly worth it. Buy the 911 cognizant of the fact it's not inexpensive to own, but if you keep the miles reasonable, it's only primarily going to be oil changes. But if you're looking at one 10-15 years old, be aware of the IMS problem.

helpful!

[Kitty Telltales]

I own a 2003 Boxster S and love it. Not cheap to maintain as it ages but gets pretty decent gas mileage and no more expensive to maintain (or minimally more) than any other European brand. I wanted a convertible and felt the Boxster was better than the 911 since it was purpose-built and had a more pure sports car feel rather than a GT feel. Didn't need the tiny back seats.

I still miss my Boxster, which I bought 4 years old used. When I separated from my husband and moved to Germany, I left it in the driveway, in NJ. He promptly tried to trade it in for the down payment on a new 911. Fortunately I took the title along with me, so he finally had to fess up and paid me half of the trade in value. I still wish I had stored it elsewhere, or shipped it over to Germany.

I should add that I now drive a little red convertible Peugeot 206CC, bought 5 years old used with 56000 Kilometers. Love this car too!!

[CoAndy]

I am a MAJOR car guy and have wanted a 911 since I was a kid, as have many. I cant tell you how much time I have spent on rennlist reading, researching, drooling. So, here is a scenario for you guys. I am probably what you would categorize as high income, low net worth!! Sounds negative, but I am under 40 and early in my career. I would love to get a 911 though it would have to come on credit. It is very tempting given low interest rates. Now, before everyone starts screaming your crazy a little background. Mortgage is only debt (and less than income), max 401k annually (52k with current value in mid 6 figures), max Roth IRAx2, max HSA, additional 50-75k annual to taxable acct, 20k annual for 1 kids college, 6 monthly expenses in savings. First reliable daily driver is paid off. Plenty of left over monthly income to make payments, say 1k or so. Would buy used to minimize depreciation and perhaps CPO.

What say you? Crazy? Or YOLO? I came close to a 997 GT2 about 3 years ago. Should have purchased as they have skyrocketed in value!!

With all that money going to savings, I would definitely get your dream car. I would save up for at least a 20% down payment though. I feel the same as you, only I want a new Corvette Z06 Stingray.

[Cyclesafe]

Sport chrono is a must for any PDK car since it gets you the Sport and Sport Plus modes. It's also a huge boost to resale value. Most guys won't even look at a used PDK car that doesn't have SC.

IMO, the most desirable options are Sport Chrono, Sport Exhaust, PDCC, full leather interior (makes a huge difference, I've had both full leather and standard and the standard feels cheap by comparison), and the Aerokit or SportDesign kit. Most cars have the Bose equipped, the Burmester is a lot better but harder to find.

Not surprisingly, when viewing Porsche USA CPO's for 2014-2016 the prevalence of the above mentioned performance options depend on whether one is considering a base Carrera or a "S".

Of the 132 base C2's listed on the site below 37 or 28% have SC. Sports Chrono appears on 33 (60%) of the 87 C2S's.

Likewise PSE is on 11% of the C2's, 38% of the C2S's; and PDCC is on zero of the C2's and a full 46% of the C2S's.

So, what I would conclude is that for the base model, not ticking the performance options is perfectly fine and that a performance-oriented buyer would be buying the C2S anyway, then likely piling on with at least some of the performance enhancements.

I would agree that if paying $12000 more for the S, one might as well step up with $2500 more to get SC. They don't call SC the "Porsche button" for nothing.

http://locator.porsche.com/ipl-customer ... .ipl?cid=2

[BruDude]

Sport chrono is a must for any PDK car since it gets you the Sport and Sport Plus modes. It's also a huge boost to resale value. Most guys won't even look at a used PDK car that doesn't have SC.

IMO, the most desirable options are Sport Chrono, Sport Exhaust, PDCC, full leather interior (makes a huge difference, I've had both full leather and standard and the standard feels cheap by comparison), and the Aerokit or SportDesign kit. Most cars have the Bose equipped, the Burmester is a lot better but harder to find.

Not surprisingly, when viewing Porsche USA CPO's for 2014-2016 the prevalence of the above mentioned performance options depend on whether one is considering a base Carrera or a "S".

Of the 132 base C2's listed on the site below 37 or 28% have SC. Sports Chrono appears on 33 (60%) of the 87 C2S's.

Likewise PSE is on 11% of the C2's, 38% of the C2S's; and PDCC is on zero of the C2's and a full 46% of the C2S's.

So, what I would conclude is that for the base model, not ticking the performance options is perfectly fine and that a performance-oriented buyer would be buying the C2S anyway, then likely piling on with at least some of the performance enhancements.

I would agree that if paying $12000 more for the S, one might as well step up with $2500 more to get SC. They don't call SC the "Porsche button" for nothing.

http://locator.porsche.com/ipl-customer ... .ipl?cid=2

Yeah the base market C2 is different because it's more show than go, I was referring to the C2S model and higher. I drove a C2 and it felt so slow in comparison, and a lot of the C2 cars out there are pretty bare bones. Anyone that actually likes to have fun driving and drives a PDK car with SC versus one without it will certainly make it a priority when looking at cars to buy. If you remove the manual cars that lack SC, I'll bet those percentages change too. SC isn't really necessary on a manual since all it does is add the rev matching on downshifts and the chrono software package which is relatively useless. For PDK cars it's a must though.

[opus360]

To me, I prefer the 911 over the Boxster/Cayman, as it felt more special. On a race track, the non-turbo Boxster / Cayman GTS just did not have enough power compared with the 911 S. (I haven't driven the turbo ones nor the Cayman GT4.) The Panamera to me is too big outside given its interior space. I much prefer the Macan over the Panamera.

[Cyclesafe]

Yeah the base market C2 is different because it's more show than go, I was referring to the C2S model and higher. I drove a C2 and it felt so slow in comparison, and a lot of the C2 cars out there are pretty bare bones. Anyone that actually likes to have fun driving and drives a PDK car with SC versus one without it will certainly make it a priority when looking at cars to buy. If you remove the manual cars that lack SC, I'll bet those percentages change too. SC isn't really necessary on a manual since all it does is add the rev matching on downshifts and the chrono software package which is relatively useless. For PDK cars it's a must though.

Actually, of the 132 C2's listed, 106 have PDK and only 29 of these have SC (27%). If one expects to regularly drive in a "spirited" fashion, or better yet, plans to go to the track from time to time, IMHO a C2S with SC has utility. Otherwise, the base Carrera without SC is plenty fast enough - especially the 991.2 with all the torque available at the low end.

[rallycobra]

The dealer can add the sport and sport plus modes for a PDK car. Also, make sure the PDK has real shift paddles, not the thumb buttons. Each is a ~$1k upgrade. I did a 09 997.2 CPO with PDK and had them change the steering wheel to get paddles. My car already had the sport chrono. In addition, I will only own sports cars with a limited slip differential. If you are going to track the car, that is another box to check on the selector.

[absolutFinance]

took a 911 991.2 c4s cab on a test drive today. the didn't have a non-cab available for a drive. all i have to say is WOW. actually maybe a bit more to say.

it was incredible... i'd love to put in an order on a c4. now i have to see if my wife will object

[Cyclesafe]

AF

Hopefully they didn't spoil you for a C4. Test driving the ~$20k more C4S cab might have been a mistake.

[absolutFinance]

AF

Hopefully they didn't spoil you for a C4. Test driving the ~$20k more C4S cab might have been a mistake.

not for me. i'm not interested in a cab at all.

[sambb]

what is the current sweet spot for 991.1 ?

[azanon]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

[wrongfunds]

I suspect the snobs will be laughing uncontrollably at you comparing your "front wheel drive appliance car" to the iconic 911

[stoptothink]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

Totally different level of performance, albeit completely useless on the street and beyond the driving capabilities of the vast majority of those contributing to this thread even on a closed track.

[alfaspider]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

If you are a fan of power oversteer, that's something you are never going to get on a VW or Audi. You can get the same amount of speed with tuning- but not the same driving characteristics.

[azanon]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

Totally different level of performance, albeit completely useless on the street and beyond the driving capabilities of the vast majority of those contributing to this thread even on a closed track.

Depends on what model. A 2018 Audi TT RS would wreck any of the non-turbo 911s.

[azanon]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

If you are a fan of power oversteer, that's something you are never going to get on a VW or Audi. You can get the same amount of speed with tuning- but not the same driving characteristics.

As I just told stoptothink, the base Audi TT RS off the lot, no tune, would outrun any of the non-turbo 911s. So you'd need the 161K retail or higher 911 to even beat the stock TT RS.

Even on the track (twisties), it's really close: http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4gnfuucr6146 Verdict: "There is no clear winner in this comparison."

I'm out

[stoptothink]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

Totally different level of performance, albeit completely useless on the street and beyond the driving capabilities of the vast majority of those contributing to this thread even on a closed track.

Depends on what model. A 2018 Audi TT RS would wreck any of the non-turbo 911s.

I was referring to your GTI, not the Audi. I'm on your side; whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

[erik265]

HI,
I owned a 2014 911s cabrio in white black top tan leather also had sports chrono.
Pros
Great handling
Fast
Very recognizable
Fun to drive
Convertible top is very well made no seams and fast to open and close
Cons
Small narrow seats if you are a big guy can feel pretty tight
Can feel a little light like you can take of into the air haha bc of its light weight rear engine config
Low like all sports cars hard to get in and out
Very expensive
Car is good looking but small wont get as much attention as a larger sports car like a Mazerati Granturismo

I did enjoy my 911s but thank god I had a second car not good in bad weather and not very practical in general. Tires are performance rated will blow out over pot holes etc so be careful they are expensive to replace. My favorite time with my Porsche was in the Hamptons heading out to Montauk in the summers. Top down listening to cold play under the stars was really special. It is a great car to drive on winding roads in good weather. If you have a second car and live in an area that can utilize the cars capabilities and have some extra money to burn why not haha There are some other good options out there it may not be flashiest car but its overall fun to drive is hard to beat.
Hope this helps

[FireSekr]

whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

Don't think this is fair.

The 911 does have capabilities that far exceed what is legal in the US on public road for sure.

BUT...not many cars produced today provide the level of enjoyment the 911 does. You cant use the full capabilities, but driving a 911 on angels crest highway on a Saturday morning at 6/10ths its capabilities is more fun than most modern cars. I know many people who wear crap clothes, eat at crappy restaurants or don't even go out much, but drive 911 because they just like how it feels. If they cared about image, they wouldn't be wearing free t-shirts they got at random work conferences.

The list of cars that are fun to drive and currently in production isn't huge. Basic formula - small, rear wheel drive, manual transmission.
Mazda MX-5
Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86
BMW 230/240/M2
Porsche Cayman
Porsche 911
Alfa 4c - okay cant get manual on this or the one below, but damn it looks sexy and sounds amazing and reviews are spectacular
Alfa Giula Quadrofologio

GTI - Kind of fun but front wheel drive, so not really great
Camaro - eh....drives well, but kind of bulky and large, hard to place compared to the cars above

BMW 3 used to be a ringer for that list, but the steering feel sucks and the turbo engine is boring compared to older versions. M3 isn't bad but I have driven all of the cars above except the Alfas and they are more fun than the M3

[stoptothink]

whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

Don't think this is fair.

The 911 does have capabilities that far exceed what is legal in the US on public road for sure.

BUT...not many cars produced today provide the level of enjoyment the 911 does. You cant use the full capabilities, but driving a 911 on angels crest highway on a Saturday morning at 6/10ths its capabilities is more fun than most modern cars. I know many people who wear crap clothes, eat at crappy restaurants or don't even go out much, but drive 911 because they just like how it feels. If they cared about image, they wouldn't be wearing free t-shirts they got at random work conferences.

The list of cars that are fun to drive and currently in production isn't huge. Basic formula - small, rear wheel drive, manual transmission.
Mazda MX-5
Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86
BMW 230/240/M2
Porsche Cayman
Porsche 911
Alfa 4c - okay cant get manual on this or the one below, but damn it looks sexy and sounds amazing and reviews are spectacular
Alfa Giula Quadrofologio

GTI - Kind of fun but front wheel drive, so not really great
Camaro - eh....drives well, but kind of bulky and large, hard to place compared to the cars above

BMW 3 used to be a ringer for that list, but the steering feel sucks and the turbo engine is boring compared to older versions. M3 isn't bad but I have driven all of the cars above except the Alfas and they are more fun than the M3

I don't know how it isn't fair, I did not say it was the only factor, but when there is a $50k+ delta between the "fun cars" lower down the list (not to mention basic maintenance which is in another stratosphere) it is hard to deny. I don't know about the difference in "fun factor", I've driven variations of all the above mentioned cars on the street sans the Alfas and even at 6/10ths (which with modern performance cars is seriously pushing it on any public road, including Angeles Crest), the differences in driving dynamics would be very difficult to discern. But, if you can afford it, who cares? When I get to the point where $50k+ is a rounding error, I might do the same.

[FireSekr]

whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

Don't think this is fair.

The 911 does have capabilities that far exceed what is legal in the US on public road for sure.

BUT...not many cars produced today provide the level of enjoyment the 911 does. You cant use the full capabilities, but driving a 911 on angels crest highway on a Saturday morning at 6/10ths its capabilities is more fun than most modern cars. I know many people who wear crap clothes, eat at crappy restaurants or don't even go out much, but drive 911 because they just like how it feels. If they cared about image, they wouldn't be wearing free t-shirts they got at random work conferences.

The list of cars that are fun to drive and currently in production isn't huge. Basic formula - small, rear wheel drive, manual transmission.
Mazda MX-5
Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86
BMW 230/240/M2
Porsche Cayman
Porsche 911
Alfa 4c - okay cant get manual on this or the one below, but damn it looks sexy and sounds amazing and reviews are spectacular
Alfa Giula Quadrofologio

GTI - Kind of fun but front wheel drive, so not really great
Camaro - eh....drives well, but kind of bulky and large, hard to place compared to the cars above

BMW 3 used to be a ringer for that list, but the steering feel sucks and the turbo engine is boring compared to older versions. M3 isn't bad but I have driven all of the cars above except the Alfas and they are more fun than the M3

I don't know how it isn't fair, I did not say it was the only factor, but when there is a $50k+ delta between the "fun cars" lower down the list and the 911 it is hard to deny. I don't know about the difference in "fun factor", I've driven variations of all the above mentioned cars on the street sans the Alfas and even at 6/10ths (which is seriously pushing it on any public road, including Angeles Crest), the differences in driving dynamics would be very difficult to discern. Performance, virtually impossible. But, if you can afford it, who cares? When I get to the point where $50k+ is a rounding error, I might do the same.

I get what you're saying. For some people, I'm sure the brand is a big factor. I have as much fun in the cheap cars on that list as I do in the more expensive ones. For me, and a lot of my friends the MX-5 and BRZ are somewhat harsh cars to drive on an everyday basis. I tried to daily a BRZ for a year and the road noise and seat comfort ride etc just made it too draining to drive every day. It was so much fun that I tried to ignore it, but it took a lot out of me and finally gave up on it.

Moving up to a BMW 2 or Porsche Cayman does add to the fun a bit, but the bigger difference is in refinement and comfort. I'd rather spend a bit more and get a Cayman and drive the car every day than to save $40k and have a BRZ that sits in my driveway 6 days a week and drive a civic the rest of the time

Everyone's reasons are different, but I see BMW and Audi drivers as people who care more about the badges (and that's coming from a BMW driver)...Some people driving 911 do too for sure, but I think a much larger portion of P-car drivers do appreciate the performance and fun they get out of them. A large majority of people I know who have Porsche (excluding Macan and Cayenne) go to Porsche club track days. Much smaller percentage of BMW drivers go to BMW CCA events. Nobody I know with an Audi has seen a track even on TV.

[Incendiary]

You forgot Corvette on your list.

[stoptothink]

whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

Don't think this is fair.

The 911 does have capabilities that far exceed what is legal in the US on public road for sure.

BUT...not many cars produced today provide the level of enjoyment the 911 does. You cant use the full capabilities, but driving a 911 on angels crest highway on a Saturday morning at 6/10ths its capabilities is more fun than most modern cars. I know many people who wear crap clothes, eat at crappy restaurants or don't even go out much, but drive 911 because they just like how it feels. If they cared about image, they wouldn't be wearing free t-shirts they got at random work conferences.

The list of cars that are fun to drive and currently in production isn't huge. Basic formula - small, rear wheel drive, manual transmission.
Mazda MX-5
Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86
BMW 230/240/M2
Porsche Cayman
Porsche 911
Alfa 4c - okay cant get manual on this or the one below, but damn it looks sexy and sounds amazing and reviews are spectacular
Alfa Giula Quadrofologio

GTI - Kind of fun but front wheel drive, so not really great
Camaro - eh....drives well, but kind of bulky and large, hard to place compared to the cars above

BMW 3 used to be a ringer for that list, but the steering feel sucks and the turbo engine is boring compared to older versions. M3 isn't bad but I have driven all of the cars above except the Alfas and they are more fun than the M3

I don't know how it isn't fair, I did not say it was the only factor, but when there is a $50k+ delta between the "fun cars" lower down the list and the 911 it is hard to deny. I don't know about the difference in "fun factor", I've driven variations of all the above mentioned cars on the street sans the Alfas and even at 6/10ths (which is seriously pushing it on any public road, including Angeles Crest), the differences in driving dynamics would be very difficult to discern. Performance, virtually impossible. But, if you can afford it, who cares? When I get to the point where $50k+ is a rounding error, I might do the same.

I get what you're saying. For some people, I'm sure the brand is a big factor. I have as much fun in the cheap cars on that list as I do in the more expensive ones. For me, and a lot of my friends the MX-5 and BRZ are somewhat harsh cars to drive on an everyday basis. I tried to daily a BRZ for a year and the road noise and seat comfort ride etc just made it too draining to drive every day. It was so much fun that I tried to ignore it, but it took a lot out of me and finally gave up on it.

Moving up to a BMW 2 or Porsche Cayman does add to the fun a bit, but the bigger difference is in refinement and comfort. I'd rather spend a bit more and get a Cayman and drive the car every day than to save $40k and have a BRZ that sits in my driveway 6 days a week and drive a civic the rest of the time

Everyone's reasons are different, but I see BMW and Audi drivers as people who care more about the badges (and that's coming from a BMW driver)...Some people driving 911 do too for sure, but I think a much larger portion of P-car drivers do appreciate the performance and fun they get out of them. A large majority of people I know who have Porsche (excluding Macan and Cayenne) go to Porsche club track days. Much smaller percentage of BMW drivers go to BMW CCA events. Nobody I know with an Audi has seen a track even on TV.

Another FWIW anecdote, both my brothers are exactly, to a "T", the type of guys you described. They literally dress like bums, couldn't care about how they physically look, yet they drive high-end performance cars (both have owned Porsches, currently both have AMGs) and it is very clear that it is 100% wealth signaling. Neither is a "car guy" in the least, couldn't tell you anything about their cars and don't have a clue how to drive them, but they love being seen in their German sports cars and telling people what they drive. They also, from a financial aspect, have no business whatsoever driving cars that cost that much; they can "afford" them from a cash flow aspect, but I am pretty sure their networth is less than the MSRP of every car they've "owned" in the past decade.

Everybody has their own reasons and it is nobody else's place to judge, I was simply providing my viewpoint. From a "fun" aspect, it is really hard to justify spending that much to drive a car on the road, because it is objectively very difficult to discern any difference unless you are pushing it well beyond public road legal limits with the capabilities of modern day vehicles. In that respect, it is little different than a watch, but it is you who has the problem if you care about what someone else drives and why.

[midareff]

Not to hijack the thread but...... had two new Porsche's, a 1998 Boxster and a 2000 Boxster S. Both cars needed the dealer every 7 weeks or so for a vast collection of sensor issues which totally excluded any thought of keeping either of them past their warranty period. Have a Mercedes C350 for the last 5 years and it's been perfect so I ordered a 2018 AMG C63S. .. due end of Feb to beginning March. .. another day another dollar.

[Lonestarz]

I’ve driven a number of cars but why would you consider RWD>AWD? I mean, a motorcycle is fun too but I’d rather have a car that grips the road better as you add HP. Where is the wrx-sti on the list?

Yea I notice the torque steer on the compact performance market but can’t recall when I needed hard acceleration when cornering - that sounds like a bad combination.

The times I’ve driven Porsche or bmw was always underwhelmed. Though those models were more about heavy lux than performance. Every time I see a fancy car I always think they are either super rich or living paycheck to paycheck. Most of the cars I see racing around Houston are 50-100k plus mods, 95% of the AMG/Porsche S are doing the speed limit in the left lane.

They may be fun to drive but I see a hard time arguing the majority are purchased for brand recognition.

[azanon]

I imagine a 911 is a wonderful German car, but I've got to say, I'm having a blast with my German MKVI VW GTI Autobahn edition that I've taken to Stage 2 with Unitronic aftermarket parts (My particular GTI was also assembled in Germany). As modified, I feel like I can smoke most of what I pull up to (and it scares me a little bit when I get all the way on it).

Now if I wanted/want to take a serious upgrade in elegance, performance, etc, I'd probably be easily satisfied by an Audi TTRS which I see retails for ~ $65K, or perhaps the new RS3.

So I guess my thought is I'm sure a 911 is awesome, but maybe awesome enough German sports car fun can be had for a lot less?

Totally different level of performance, albeit completely useless on the street and beyond the driving capabilities of the vast majority of those contributing to this thread even on a closed track.

Depends on what model. A 2018 Audi TT RS would wreck any of the non-turbo 911s.

I was referring to your GTI, not the Audi. I'm on your side; whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

Ok yeah that's definitely true. I'm going to stage "2+ Unitronic" this year (adding golf r turbo) which according to forums can allow me to clock a high 12 second quarter mile time (~ 12.7 ish) if I launch it right, but yeah compared to either the Porsche or Audi TT RS, I'll never come close to that level of either speed or maneuverability on a track. But I thought it was still worth bringing up my GTI because the level of performance that it does bring "to the street" as you say, is so much that it would be hard to be in a street situation where the GTI can't give you what you're looking for. By my eye poll, I can smoke 99% of what pulls up next to me (but yeah sure, I'm counting every car I see).

So it sounds like we basically agree, it's not about performance that makes someone chose a Porsche over a GTI in most cases, it's more about status. Because the GTI is plenty of fun, and modified, even its overkill for legal streets. And that's even more true on a vs. Audi TT RS, because that car basically matches the base model 911s performance, it's only shy on the status symbol comparison.

[azanon]

Yea I notice the torque steer on the compact performance market but can’t recall when I needed hard acceleration when cornering - that sounds like a bad combination.

Torque steer is not just limited to cornering. My GTI torque steers now sometime when I floor it driving in a straight line (it'll want to jump in the next right lane if I loose grip the wheel). It's not that bad, but I've learned to grip the steering wheel tight before I mash that pedal to the floor. I never noticed that before I modded it, but with all this new power on a front-wheel drive car, it does introduce that issue.

[tbill1]

Have a 2005 911 Carrera that was purchased new. Had for 13 years an have had zero issues other than routine maintenance from a indy mechanic. I take all vehicles to mechanic who has history with high-end brands. Less hourly costs than dealer.

Before that I purchased a 2004 Cayenne S, which I just last month traded off after 183000 miles-some issues, but still strong at that mileage and # of years.

I think the Porsche brand is a great one an I continue to purchase the brand. (2015 Macan S, 2018 Macan S and last year purchased a 1988 air-cooled 911 3.2.) If a brand of whatever product you purchase gives long-term reliability I would argue that is a good purchase.

Can't deny I enjoy being seen in a Porsche, but mostly I just delight in the "Porsche experience"

[azanon]

I will say, if I was going for status, I probably would stick to a 911 or maybe something a little less common like the Panamera. But those Cayennes or Macans? They're all over the place here in Little Rock, so i can only imagine how much more common they must be in wealthier states. I hardly bat an eye when 1 or 2 minutes pass and I see yet another Porsche SUV. I know of at least 3-4 in my subdivision of ~ 200K dollar homes.

[RRAAYY3]

Porsche does seem like Bogleheads most guilty pleasure ... may have to check one out sometime

[alfaspider]

whether they want to admit it or not, wealth signaling is by far the most influential factor in anybody purchasing a P-car (or any anything of the like) to drive on the street.

Don't think this is fair.

The 911 does have capabilities that far exceed what is legal in the US on public road for sure.

BUT...not many cars produced today provide the level of enjoyment the 911 does. You cant use the full capabilities, but driving a 911 on angels crest highway on a Saturday morning at 6/10ths its capabilities is more fun than most modern cars. I know many people who wear crap clothes, eat at crappy restaurants or don't even go out much, but drive 911 because they just like how it feels. If they cared about image, they wouldn't be wearing free t-shirts they got at random work conferences.

The list of cars that are fun to drive and currently in production isn't huge. Basic formula - small, rear wheel drive, manual transmission.
Mazda MX-5
Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86
BMW 230/240/M2
Porsche Cayman
Porsche 911
Alfa 4c - okay cant get manual on this or the one below, but damn it looks sexy and sounds amazing and reviews are spectacular
Alfa Giula Quadrofologio

GTI - Kind of fun but front wheel drive, so not really great
Camaro - eh....drives well, but kind of bulky and large, hard to place compared to the cars above

BMW 3 used to be a ringer for that list, but the steering feel sucks and the turbo engine is boring compared to older versions. M3 isn't bad but I have driven all of the cars above except the Alfas and they are more fun than the M3

I think the list is overly restrictive. Certainly, small manual and rear wheel drive is a pretty good combo, but not every RWD manual car is all that much fun and not every AWD or FWD car is a snooze. I've driven a manual 228i- it's OK, but I wouldn't call it "fun" with a capital F. I've also driven an M2- and it was merely ok- the M3 is a lot more fun even though it is bigger. The problem with the M2 is that the engine just doesn't have the "motorsport" feel to it- the N55 doesn't rev like the S55.

In any event, I think my Subaru STI is more fun than either the M2 or the M3 even though it can't power oversteer. I haven't driven an Civic type R, but all reports are that it's a ton of fun. For me, it's all about the sense of a direct connection to the machine- which is not dependent on drivetrain layout.

[alfaspider]

As I just told stoptothink, the base Audi TT RS off the lot, no tune, would outrun any of the non-turbo 911s. So you'd need the 161K retail or higher 911 to even beat the stock TT RS.

Only if you don't include the GT3 in your list of non-turbo 911s. Those will about pace the TT-RS in a straight line and leave them in the dust on a road course. But, like I said, it's just a different feel and a different experience. My vintage Alfa is downright slow by comparison to any of these cars being discussed, but it's provides driving enjoyment that's very hard to top with any of these newer faster cars.

In any event, if you just want the fastest all around car for the least money, you should be looking at Corvettes. They are pretty hard to top in that category.

[azanon]

As I just told stoptothink, the base Audi TT RS off the lot, no tune, would outrun any of the non-turbo 911s. So you'd need the 161K retail or higher 911 to even beat the stock TT RS.

Only if you don't include the GT3 in your list of non-turbo 911s. Those will about pace the TT-RS in a straight line and leave them in the dust on a road course. But, like I said, it's just a different feel and a different experience. My vintage Alfa is downright slow by comparison to any of these cars being discussed, but it's provides driving enjoyment that's very hard to top with any of these newer faster cars.

In any event, if you just want the fastest all around car for the least money, you should be looking at Corvettes. They are pretty hard to top in that category.

So yeah I'm not going to go model by model of the 911s, cause I admit I'm not an aficionado of 911 variants, I merely was originally correcting the notion that any new 911 is in a whole new performance class than the Audi TT RS. To the contrary, the base Audi TT RS (there's only one anyway), and the base 911 perform more or less the same; the TT RS being a bit faster, but the 911 being every-so-slightly faster on a track (less than 1 second difference on a 3 minute run; see link above), with the conclusion being that they essentially provide the same (German) performance.

I bought up GTIs and Audis cause they're German, and actually owned by the same company as Porsche. For Vettes, gosh start a new thread! But power/money ratio, I'm not doing too bad with a modded GTI.