surface street or freeway commute?
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surface street or freeway commute?
This is not a hypothetical question but an actual choice.
Two essentially identical teaching jobs with identical salaries and benefits at two fairly similar schools. To the extent that they are different I wouldn't be able to find out before starting anyway.
School A is 25 miles away on a 100% reverse commute freeway drive that google maps and traffic pegs at 30-32 minutes during peak traffic times. I've been checking every morning and afternoon at what would be my normal commute times. I'd basically be starting at the northern edge of the metro area and driving further north against all the commuter traffic every day. Because of the urban growth boundaries I don't expect the counter flow traffic to change all that much in the near future. I'd be getting on the freeway 2 minutes from my house and not getting off until 2 minutes from my destination.
School B is a 15 mile commute across the suburban area on entirely surface streets. So 5 lane boulevards of suburban sprawl with traffic lights every mile or so. Google maps pegs it at 25-27 minutes every day during the same commuting times. There are no freeway options at all along this route. My perception is that the area is infilling with development pretty rapidly, certainly faster than the road grid can keep up so traffic is likely to get worse faster than on the freeway commute.
I've never lived with either of these two types of commutes before. My inclination is that the 5 minute longer freeway commute is going to be less stressful than the stop and go cross town surface street commute, even though the surface street commute is substantially closer.
So you commuting veterans. Would you rather spend 30 minutes each way on a relatively open freeway commute or 25 minutes each way on a suburban sprawl surface street commute? I'm currently working across the country in another state and have been interviewing for these jobs via skype and don't have the chance to actually test-drive either commute or visit either job location before accepting one or the other position.
Two essentially identical teaching jobs with identical salaries and benefits at two fairly similar schools. To the extent that they are different I wouldn't be able to find out before starting anyway.
School A is 25 miles away on a 100% reverse commute freeway drive that google maps and traffic pegs at 30-32 minutes during peak traffic times. I've been checking every morning and afternoon at what would be my normal commute times. I'd basically be starting at the northern edge of the metro area and driving further north against all the commuter traffic every day. Because of the urban growth boundaries I don't expect the counter flow traffic to change all that much in the near future. I'd be getting on the freeway 2 minutes from my house and not getting off until 2 minutes from my destination.
School B is a 15 mile commute across the suburban area on entirely surface streets. So 5 lane boulevards of suburban sprawl with traffic lights every mile or so. Google maps pegs it at 25-27 minutes every day during the same commuting times. There are no freeway options at all along this route. My perception is that the area is infilling with development pretty rapidly, certainly faster than the road grid can keep up so traffic is likely to get worse faster than on the freeway commute.
I've never lived with either of these two types of commutes before. My inclination is that the 5 minute longer freeway commute is going to be less stressful than the stop and go cross town surface street commute, even though the surface street commute is substantially closer.
So you commuting veterans. Would you rather spend 30 minutes each way on a relatively open freeway commute or 25 minutes each way on a suburban sprawl surface street commute? I'm currently working across the country in another state and have been interviewing for these jobs via skype and don't have the chance to actually test-drive either commute or visit either job location before accepting one or the other position.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
I'd take the reverse commute freeway if I can just put cruise control on and listen to music/podcast/etc.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
This is correct, in my experience. The freeway commute will also be easier on your vehicle.texasdiver wrote:My inclination is that the 5 minute longer freeway commute is going to be less stressful than the stop and go cross town surface street commute, even though the surface street commute is substantially closer.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Assuming the freeways aren't toll roads my personal preference would be the freeway. Even though freeways can also be stop and go at busy times, at least when the guy ahead of you moves a few feet you can too. You didn't say where in TX, but some of the red lights are very long in the Dallas area. I hate waiting on reds when nobody's coming the other way.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Definitely the freeway. But although you characterize yourself as 'texasdiver' if this is in Texas there can still be adverse weather conditions of freezing rain, sleet, etc. and it would be good to understand what happens to those two routes in bad weather. Where I live urban freeways get first attention for snow and ice measures, including even bridges that have de-icing systems installed on the bridge. Arterial streets are cleaned up quickly, but residential and side streets can be awhile before plowing, sanding, etc.
PS Modern adaptive cruise control systems are really helpful in stop and go freeway traffic but not recommended in heavy urban traffic.
PS Modern adaptive cruise control systems are really helpful in stop and go freeway traffic but not recommended in heavy urban traffic.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
We are in Texas now and moving to the northwest.cheese_breath wrote:Assuming the freeways aren't toll roads my personal preference would be the freeway. Even though freeways can also be stop and go at busy times, at least when the guy ahead of you moves a few feet you can too. You didn't say where in TX, but some of the red lights are very long in the Dallas area. I hate waiting on reds when nobody's coming the other way.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Freeway.
Just imagine the money you will be saving in brake pads.
Just imagine the money you will be saving in brake pads.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Having lived with both types of commutes, I prefer the freeway option. Easier on your car, definitely less stressful. There are restaurants we don't visit any longer because to get there we had to use a "surface street highway" - 3 lanes each direction but many traffic lights. And the area at the restaurant end of the journey was getting more and more built up, similar to your description. Too many drivers weaving in and out of lanes to try to get ahead, people turning right on red or leaving a parking lot to enter the road forcing cars already on the road to hit their brakes, cars slowing to turn right into offices/shops all the time. And if a pedestrian hit the button to trigger the walk light, that was another 45 seconds sitting at a red.
I can't even imagine how much lane changing would be going on with 5 lanes.
I can't even imagine how much lane changing would be going on with 5 lanes.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
On surface streets you could be sharing the road with pedestrians and bicyclists so you have to be alert for that. That might make the commute less relaxing than a freeway drive.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
My boo boo. I should have guessed you were in TX based on your ID.texasdiver wrote:We are in Texas now and moving to the northwest.cheese_breath wrote:Assuming the freeways aren't toll roads my personal preference would be the freeway. Even though freeways can also be stop and go at busy times, at least when the guy ahead of you moves a few feet you can too. You didn't say where in TX, but some of the red lights are very long in the Dallas area. I hate waiting on reds when nobody's coming the other way.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
That's my inclination too. BTW, I'm not talking about 5 lanes in each direction (that sounds like Buenos Aires) but rather 5 lanes total, two in each direction with a center turning lane.prudent wrote:Having lived with both types of commutes, I prefer the freeway option. Easier on your car, definitely less stressful. There are restaurants we don't visit any longer because to get there we had to use a "surface street highway" - 3 lanes each direction but many traffic lights. And the area at the restaurant end of the journey was getting more and more built up, similar to your description. Too many drivers weaving in and out of lanes to try to get ahead, people turning right on red or leaving a parking lot to enter the road forcing cars already on the road to hit their brakes, cars slowing to turn right into offices/shops all the time. And if a pedestrian hit the button to trigger the walk light, that was another 45 seconds sitting at a red.
I can't even imagine how much lane changing would be going on with 5 lanes.
I think my own personality will be more irritated by stop and go surface traffic, getting caught at lights for multiple light cycles due to traffic backup, and so forth compared to the occasional freeway slow down. It just seems more wearying to fight surface street traffic every day and more likely to get on my nerves, even if the total commute times are somewhat similar.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
If possible, take the freeway route for sure.
In addition to the aggravation of numerous stop and go's, it is also more dangerous driving in such a situation. And there may be many red light cameras to catch you (and your wallet) off guard.
In addition to the aggravation of numerous stop and go's, it is also more dangerous driving in such a situation. And there may be many red light cameras to catch you (and your wallet) off guard.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
I would say Freeway because the stop/go/crazy intersections, plus School Bus/Commuter Buses will be very slow in bad weather conditions.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
No brainer, the freeway.
I've never had less than a 45min commute each way to work no matter the location and any portion than involved surface streets, traffic lights or stop and crawl past school zones were the worst, always felt longer and more prone to a jam up.
A 30 min commute is a piece of cake.
Good luck with your job selection!
I've never had less than a 45min commute each way to work no matter the location and any portion than involved surface streets, traffic lights or stop and crawl past school zones were the worst, always felt longer and more prone to a jam up.
A 30 min commute is a piece of cake.
Good luck with your job selection!
- Doom&Gloom
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
If that is the deciding factor: freeway--and it's not even close.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
When I used to live in New Orleans, there were school zones and traffic cameras all over the place. My preference would be freeway.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
I used to do 1hr commute reverse freeway traffic. It was quite nice in that it was very consistent and predictable to the point I started noticing some of the same cars every morning if I left on time.
- Epsilon Delta
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
In my experience Google maps is often wildly optimistic in these type of commutes. IMHO 15 miles in 25-27 minutes requires pretty light traffic, certainly nothing that resembles a traffic jam or stopping at every light, let alone needing to wait more than a single cycle at any lights. If there is actual congestion it may take much longer than 27 minutes.texasdiver wrote:School B is a 15 mile commute across the suburban area on entirely surface streets. So 5 lane boulevards of suburban sprawl with traffic lights every mile or so. Google maps pegs it at 25-27 minutes every day during the same commuting times. There are no freeway options at all along this route. My perception is that the area is infilling with development pretty rapidly, certainly faster than the road grid can keep up so traffic is likely to get worse faster than on the freeway commute.
I'd look for a second opinion. Of course Google could also be wrong about how congested the freeway is, but there is often better data available for freeways.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
If I was moving, I would find a place closer to work.
But yeah, reverse freeway vs surface streets is a no brainer.
But yeah, reverse freeway vs surface streets is a no brainer.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Well I think the surface street commute is shorter and will use less gas and not need a freeway type car. You can use a total electric car. Plus IMO over a long time line (many years) this commute will stay stable at around 25 minutes. It may even get better if you go at off times. Plus if there is a wreck you can go around it on other available side streets. So not a lot of variability. Oh and with the short distance you don't feel bad about going home and coming back in the evening for some activity or teacher conference.
For sure the 30 mile commute uses more gas. It requires a freeway type car. Never work far away from you home. Plus I suspect that the 30 mile freeway commute may actually get a lot worse over time. It is 30 minutes right now at a average speed of 60 mph. That is really fast for any freeway in any city. What happens if more people start going this way over the years? I suspect the speed will go down to 30 mph and maybe down to 15mph on some days when there is a wreck. So are you going to be happy when commuter explodes to 60 minutes regularly and 2 hours when there is wreck?
Just thinking about the issues.
For sure the 30 mile commute uses more gas. It requires a freeway type car. Never work far away from you home. Plus I suspect that the 30 mile freeway commute may actually get a lot worse over time. It is 30 minutes right now at a average speed of 60 mph. That is really fast for any freeway in any city. What happens if more people start going this way over the years? I suspect the speed will go down to 30 mph and maybe down to 15mph on some days when there is a wreck. So are you going to be happy when commuter explodes to 60 minutes regularly and 2 hours when there is wreck?
Just thinking about the issues.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
You're moving to the Northwest? Bicycle!
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Over my 35 year career, I probably made over 16,000 trips to and from work. I often think that if I had bought a house just one mile closer to my work it would have made a huge difference in the long run.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Reverse freeway doesn't necessarily mean relaxing. I've been doing a 15-mile reverse commute since 2007 and in that time I've been gently bumped from behind once, nearly rear-ended several times, run over a ladder once, been narrowly missed more times than I can count, and generally developed a morbid fear of dying in a freeway accident. It doesn't help that the speed limit was recently raised to 70mph, leading many people now to drive at 75 to 80. I don't listen to podcasts and I keep the radio strictly off--I try to be aware of what traffic is doing at all times, and that means no distractions.
Which is not to say that surface streets would be better; they have their own problems. But at least your accident will occur at a lower speed.
Which is not to say that surface streets would be better; they have their own problems. But at least your accident will occur at a lower speed.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Thanks guys, I'm leaning towards the freeway commute.
Finding a closer position isn't necessarily happening but I am trying. Unlike most other professions, schools are pretty evenly dispersed throughout each metro area and you pretty much have to cast your net fairly wide unless you are living someplace with big teacher shortages which is not the case here, more the opposite.
I would love to line up a job next door but that isn't necessarily happening. Over a year ago my wife and I decided to relocate from Texas back to our home region in the Northwest. Finding her a job to her liking was the first step as she a physician and the primary bread winner and there is much more disparity between work situations for her. Last summer and fall a couple different places wined and dined her and we looked at a variety of options and she picked the group she was most comfortable with and that most suited her philosophy. They were willing to sign her to a contract 9 months out and so we nailed that down. Since about December we have been house hunting remotely and taking a few trips out in person to get to know the area, visit schools and communities, and finally nailed down a house with some luck that is in a great neighborhood in the school system we wanted and very convenient to my wife's new employer. The housing market is crazy there so that was no small accomplishment.
That took care of everything but me. The annual hiring cycle for teachers is only just getting into full swing so it was impossible for me to know where I might be working at the time we were looking at jobs for my wife and houses and schools for the kids. I've just been taking it on faith that something would come up or I could do some kind of work from home gig. So far no closer teaching jobs have come up. One closer job was withdrawn because they filled it with an internal hire. Another I interviewed for but didn't get. Others I've applied to but haven't heard back. So it's probably going to mean sucking up some kind of commute or just not teaching next year. Or turning down the farther away jobs in the hope that something closer will pop up this summer but there is zero guarantee of that happening. I have entertained going back to doing administrative work of some sort for my old Federal agency but even if I found a position, the headquarters office way downtown and the commutes there would be with the traffic and much longer and stressful. And frankly I like teaching better anyway.
So I'm leaning strongly towards the freeway commute and thinking about picking up a new Prius for the daily drive to replace the 2004 Sienna sitting in my driveway that has 280,000 miles on it. I'm not built for the life of leisure. As long as my younger wife keeps working I pretty much need to as well, just to keep busy and productive. My salary will pretty much go 100% to pay for the oldest daughter's college tuition. The math works about exactly like that. I know a number of her female colleagues who have stay home Dad husbands who don't do much and I just can't see myself doing that.
Teaching jobs are pretty much the same everywhere. If I do find the commute too much after a while I figure I can always look for positions closer to home in another year or two. My wife is making the bigger and longer term commitment to the group she signed on with, so having her work/home geography figured out was the higher priority and I think we did that. She will have the 10 minute commute. She is hopeful that this is where she will work until she retires so we wanted to get that part right.
Finding a closer position isn't necessarily happening but I am trying. Unlike most other professions, schools are pretty evenly dispersed throughout each metro area and you pretty much have to cast your net fairly wide unless you are living someplace with big teacher shortages which is not the case here, more the opposite.
I would love to line up a job next door but that isn't necessarily happening. Over a year ago my wife and I decided to relocate from Texas back to our home region in the Northwest. Finding her a job to her liking was the first step as she a physician and the primary bread winner and there is much more disparity between work situations for her. Last summer and fall a couple different places wined and dined her and we looked at a variety of options and she picked the group she was most comfortable with and that most suited her philosophy. They were willing to sign her to a contract 9 months out and so we nailed that down. Since about December we have been house hunting remotely and taking a few trips out in person to get to know the area, visit schools and communities, and finally nailed down a house with some luck that is in a great neighborhood in the school system we wanted and very convenient to my wife's new employer. The housing market is crazy there so that was no small accomplishment.
That took care of everything but me. The annual hiring cycle for teachers is only just getting into full swing so it was impossible for me to know where I might be working at the time we were looking at jobs for my wife and houses and schools for the kids. I've just been taking it on faith that something would come up or I could do some kind of work from home gig. So far no closer teaching jobs have come up. One closer job was withdrawn because they filled it with an internal hire. Another I interviewed for but didn't get. Others I've applied to but haven't heard back. So it's probably going to mean sucking up some kind of commute or just not teaching next year. Or turning down the farther away jobs in the hope that something closer will pop up this summer but there is zero guarantee of that happening. I have entertained going back to doing administrative work of some sort for my old Federal agency but even if I found a position, the headquarters office way downtown and the commutes there would be with the traffic and much longer and stressful. And frankly I like teaching better anyway.
So I'm leaning strongly towards the freeway commute and thinking about picking up a new Prius for the daily drive to replace the 2004 Sienna sitting in my driveway that has 280,000 miles on it. I'm not built for the life of leisure. As long as my younger wife keeps working I pretty much need to as well, just to keep busy and productive. My salary will pretty much go 100% to pay for the oldest daughter's college tuition. The math works about exactly like that. I know a number of her female colleagues who have stay home Dad husbands who don't do much and I just can't see myself doing that.
Teaching jobs are pretty much the same everywhere. If I do find the commute too much after a while I figure I can always look for positions closer to home in another year or two. My wife is making the bigger and longer term commitment to the group she signed on with, so having her work/home geography figured out was the higher priority and I think we did that. She will have the 10 minute commute. She is hopeful that this is where she will work until she retires so we wanted to get that part right.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Keep looking for that third option: The school you can bike or walk to everyday.
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
+1 to this.chx wrote:Keep looking for that third option: The school you can bike or walk to everyday.
The freeways here are a nightmare if anything goes wrong. (Accident, bad weather, construction.) Give me a nice 35 MPH suburban commute any day where I can roll down the windows and relax.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
I would say freeway also.
Just make sure there are side roads one can take WHEN (not IF) it gets congested or has other problems. Inevitably you'll need to know these and it helps to insure that there's a plan B.
I would say that if is a major metro area it should have a traffic camera system that you could examine early morning commute patterns on the highway-- most do have some that are easily followed and have cameras at the usual choak points or nearby. Examining them for a few days may give you some indication of how bad it might be versus the mapquest estimates. (I'd say investigate the morning commute since you need to be there for your students first; getting home, while important, is secondary.
(Before retirement, my commute was at least 45 in and one hour 15 back--without problems; and I learned most every way out and checked traffic on such cameras/ web sites to know which route to take. When I had to use the slower arterial route, it was very aggravating and unpredictable especially near school zones or areas of high red light camera/speed trap zones. )
Just make sure there are side roads one can take WHEN (not IF) it gets congested or has other problems. Inevitably you'll need to know these and it helps to insure that there's a plan B.
I would say that if is a major metro area it should have a traffic camera system that you could examine early morning commute patterns on the highway-- most do have some that are easily followed and have cameras at the usual choak points or nearby. Examining them for a few days may give you some indication of how bad it might be versus the mapquest estimates. (I'd say investigate the morning commute since you need to be there for your students first; getting home, while important, is secondary.
(Before retirement, my commute was at least 45 in and one hour 15 back--without problems; and I learned most every way out and checked traffic on such cameras/ web sites to know which route to take. When I had to use the slower arterial route, it was very aggravating and unpredictable especially near school zones or areas of high red light camera/speed trap zones. )
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Give them each a test run in the morning
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
You don't mention buses or carpooling. Are neither an option? Not driving would make for good paper grading time!
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Re: surface street or freeway commute?
.Pharmacist wrote:Give them each a test run in the morning
The OP noted in initial post that they're across the country from the area, so couldn't do that.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
Investigating alternative routes was also going to be my suggestion. In California, when freeways have issues, the gridlock can quickly trickle around to all of the side streets too, as people seek alternative routes. And there are some routes that don't have many alternatives, particularly if you need to cross rivers or mountains between home and work. So if the freeway is gridlocked, the alternatives might also be gridlocked.Nearing_Destination wrote:I would say freeway also.
Just make sure there are side roads one can take WHEN (not IF) it gets congested or has other problems. Inevitably you'll need to know these and it helps to insure that there's a plan B.
Re: surface street or freeway commute?
I've done both, have a 32 mile against the grain highway commute now. The wife uses more suburban and surface streets for 35 miles. I like my commute much better. She routinely gets caught in long backups at lights (during construction especially), school buses, trash trucks. I see none of that on a highway. Also some roads are closed for high water on her route. Interstate and state highways (at least around here) are not bothered by high water. I would chose the highway route.
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