[Any risk in] Paying cash for services [when offered a discount]

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
wrongfunds
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:27 pm

OP must have signed an actual contract before the work started. Did it mention anything about paying cash for the work?

flyingbison
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by flyingbison » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:46 pm

wrongfunds wrote:OP must have signed an actual contract before the work started. Did it mention anything about paying cash for the work?


Must have? Why?

Doom&Gloom
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by Doom&Gloom » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:32 pm

Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.


+1

I thought we'd never get here. :sharebeer

davebo
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by davebo » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:55 pm

I just had a guy quote me 450 dollars if I paid by check and 400 if I paid cash. I took him up with it because I knew the guy. Not sure if I would do it with a company I didn't know as well.

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dm200
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by dm200 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:21 pm

Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.


While it may be primarily moral/ethical, if the amount of the "cash" is large (perhaps over $10,000), this may trigger reporting requirements. Depending on how a large amount (perhaos over $10,000) is raised, other, more serious, reports may be filed. These reports may relate to the OP, as well as the contractor. In other words, this may turn into a legal issue for the OP, depending on the details of the "cash". I am NOT providing "legal advice", but rather relating what know about such reporting requirements.

Doom&Gloom
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by Doom&Gloom » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:57 pm

dm200 wrote:
Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.


While it may be primarily moral/ethical, if the amount of the "cash" is large (perhaps over $10,000), this may trigger reporting requirements. Depending on how a large amount (perhaos over $10,000) is raised, other, more serious, reports may be filed. These reports may relate to the OP, as well as the contractor. In other words, this may turn into a legal issue for the OP, depending on the details of the "cash". I am NOT providing "legal advice", but rather relating what know about such reporting requirements.


Please provide a link or citation regarding this being an illegal action for a customer such as OP.

Rupert
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by Rupert » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:09 am

dm200 wrote:
Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.


While it may be primarily moral/ethical, if the amount of the "cash" is large (perhaps over $10,000), this may trigger reporting requirements. Depending on how a large amount (perhaos over $10,000) is raised, other, more serious, reports may be filed. These reports may relate to the OP, as well as the contractor. In other words, this may turn into a legal issue for the OP, depending on the details of the "cash". I am NOT providing "legal advice", but rather relating what know about such reporting requirements.


I was referring to the previous posters who told OP he was potentially committing fraud under a conspiracy or aiding and abetting theory, which is completely ridiculous. But I'm not sure your theory is correct either. OP would just be taking his money out of the bank to pay a contractor for services rendered. So someone at the bank asks OP a question or asks him to fill out a report (I'm completely unfamiliar with those laws but am just using common sense here) -- why are you withdrawing this money from the bank? OP says, "I'm withdrawing the money to pay my contractor for fixing my plumbing." Where's the crime? He's being honest on the report, isn't he? It's the contractor who may (or may not, we really don't know) be doing something sketchy here, not OP.

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prudent
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by prudent » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:46 am

Doom&Gloom wrote:
dm200 wrote:
Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.


While it may be primarily moral/ethical, if the amount of the "cash" is large (perhaps over $10,000), this may trigger reporting requirements. Depending on how a large amount (perhaos over $10,000) is raised, other, more serious, reports may be filed. These reports may relate to the OP, as well as the contractor. In other words, this may turn into a legal issue for the OP, depending on the details of the "cash". I am NOT providing "legal advice", but rather relating what know about such reporting requirements.


Please provide a link or citation regarding this being an illegal action for a customer such as OP.


I think the distinction is this: one can theoretically get embroiled in a mess even though nothing illegal was done.

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dm200
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by dm200 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:27 am

Rupert wrote:
dm200 wrote:
Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.

While it may be primarily moral/ethical, if the amount of the "cash" is large (perhaps over $10,000), this may trigger reporting requirements. Depending on how a large amount (perhaps over $10,000) is raised, other, more serious, reports may be filed. These reports may relate to the OP, as well as the contractor. In other words, this may turn into a legal issue for the OP, depending on the details of the "cash". I am NOT providing "legal advice", but rather relating what know about such reporting requirements.

I was referring to the previous posters who told OP he was potentially committing fraud under a conspiracy or aiding and abetting theory, which is completely ridiculous. But I'm not sure your theory is correct either. OP would just be taking his money out of the bank to pay a contractor for services rendered. So someone at the bank asks OP a question or asks him to fill out a report (I'm completely unfamiliar with those laws but am just using common sense here) -- why are you withdrawing this money from the bank? OP says, "I'm withdrawing the money to pay my contractor for fixing my plumbing." Where's the crime? He's being honest on the report, isn't he? It's the contractor who may (or may not, we really don't know) be doing something sketchy here, not OP.


I certainly see your point of view. I am very familiar with the kinds of reporting that may be done, is done and/or is required to be done when dealing with cash at certain levels and by different entities. Many of such reports make no accusations of wrongdoing, but some do indicate (to varying degrees) that an activity is "Suspicious". Many financial institutions and staff (as well as the federal government agencies) have a very low threshhold of defining "Suspicious". In many cases involving financial institutions, the situation described might be deemed "Suspicious". Any "cash" (currency/coin) transaction in or out of over $10,000 would be reported on a CTR (currency transaction report). The OP did not state the dollar amount, but from the description it might be over $10,000.

So, if the OP went to his/her bank or credit union and withdrew over $10,000 cash, the bank or credit union would file a CTR. They would probably inform him/her and, perhaps, ask for some information. A CTR is no accusation of wrondoing. If, however, the person at the bank/credit union was overly cautious and the OP stated this narrative, a SAR (Suspicious activity report) might be filed. The OP would not be informed. Also, if the OP tried to avoid a CTR (or was perceived as doing so), a SAR would be filed. perhaps the OP went to one branch and took out $5,000 and then went to another branch and took out $5,100.

One thing I do not know is whether an individual like the OP would need to report (CTR) a cash transaction of ovver $10,000.

Let me also add that "Common Sense" is 100% completely irrelevant. In complying with the reporting and compliance with these matters of cash transactions, threshholds, rules for different entities, reporting "Suspicious" activity. To be in compliance with all of these complex, confusing and sometimes contradictory rules, regulations, enforcement, etc. you have to do your best (sometimes even more) to ignore "Common sense". Some banks and credit unions have gotten into significant trouble for not following the letter of these complex rules/regulations - perhaps because they used "common sense" vs following the "letter" of the law.

Rupert
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by Rupert » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:59 am

dm200 wrote:
Rupert wrote:
dm200 wrote:
Rupert wrote:OP, you are getting some really bad legal advice from some prior posters. You are simply paying a contractor for services actually rendered using the national currency. This is a moral/ethical, not a legal, issue for you. If you feel bad about it, write the guy a check. If you don't, pay cash, take the discount, and go on with your life.

While it may be primarily moral/ethical, if the amount of the "cash" is large (perhaps over $10,000), this may trigger reporting requirements. Depending on how a large amount (perhaps over $10,000) is raised, other, more serious, reports may be filed. These reports may relate to the OP, as well as the contractor. In other words, this may turn into a legal issue for the OP, depending on the details of the "cash". I am NOT providing "legal advice", but rather relating what know about such reporting requirements.

I was referring to the previous posters who told OP he was potentially committing fraud under a conspiracy or aiding and abetting theory, which is completely ridiculous. But I'm not sure your theory is correct either. OP would just be taking his money out of the bank to pay a contractor for services rendered. So someone at the bank asks OP a question or asks him to fill out a report (I'm completely unfamiliar with those laws but am just using common sense here) -- why are you withdrawing this money from the bank? OP says, "I'm withdrawing the money to pay my contractor for fixing my plumbing." Where's the crime? He's being honest on the report, isn't he? It's the contractor who may (or may not, we really don't know) be doing something sketchy here, not OP.


I certainly see your point of view. I am very familiar with the kinds of reporting that may be done, is done and/or is required to be done when dealing with cash at certain levels and by different entities. Many of such reports make no accusations of wrongdoing, but some do indicate (to varying degrees) that an activity is "Suspicious". Many financial institutions and staff (as well as the federal government agencies) have a very low threshhold of defining "Suspicious". In many cases involving financial institutions, the situation described might be deemed "Suspicious". Any "cash" (currency/coin) transaction in or out of over $10,000 would be reported on a CTR (currency transaction report). The OP did not state the dollar amount, but from the description it might be over $10,000.

So, if the OP went to his/her bank or credit union and withdrew over $10,000 cash, the bank or credit union would file a CTR. They would probably inform him/her and, perhaps, ask for some information. A CTR is no accusation of wrondoing. If, however, the person at the bank/credit union was overly cautious and the OP stated this narrative, a SAR (Suspicious activity report) might be filed. The OP would not be informed. Also, if the OP tried to avoid a CTR (or was perceived as doing so), a SAR would be filed. perhaps the OP went to one branch and took out $5,000 and then went to another branch and took out $5,100.

One thing I do not know is whether an individual like the OP would need to report (CTR) a cash transaction of ovver $10,000.

Let me also add that "Common Sense" is 100% completely irrelevant. In complying with the reporting and compliance with these matters of cash transactions, threshholds, rules for different entities, reporting "Suspicious" activity. To be in compliance with all of these complex, confusing and sometimes contradictory rules, regulations, enforcement, etc. you have to do your best (sometimes even more) to ignore "Common sense". Some banks and credit unions have gotten into significant trouble for not following the letter of these complex rules/regulations - perhaps because they used "common sense" vs following the "letter" of the law.



No offense, but there is a no factual basis to support the conclusion that OP is considering structuring cash withdrawals to avoid reporting requirements. (For a good discussion of the structuring laws, Google Dennis Hastert). That's an intentional crime. So, while the information you have shared is interesting, I don't think it's relevant to the actual discussion in this thread.

Doom&Gloom
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Re: Paying cash for services

Post by Doom&Gloom » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:06 pm

I've had many CTR's filed and presumably even more SAR's. It is a requirement for financial institutions to file them, and there has been a much stronger emphasis for them to do so within the past few years under the "know your customer" banner. Usually the customer is unaware that either has been filled out or filed.

Presumably, if an individual can show legitimate origins of the currency involved, there should be no issue. As far as I am aware, there is no legal prohibition for using cash for one's personal transactions. However, it is always possible that "stuff happens."

Alex Frakt
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Re: [Any risk in] Paying cash for services [when offered a discount]

Post by Alex Frakt » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:19 pm

Locked. The topic has been exhausted and speculating on other people's motives is beyond the scope of our forum.

Locked