Travel to Greece

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caseynshan
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Travel to Greece

Post by caseynshan »

Planing vacation for summer 2016
It sounds like it is likely (no one knows the future for sure) to be a good time to travel to Greece

Assuming Greece leaves the Euro a dollar should go much farther than it does today. I don't think the touristy things.. (will spend 90% of time on islands) will be significantly chaotic.

disagree?
livesoft
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by livesoft »

Since 2016 is ages from now, why waste time speculating? You will know soon enough how the story turns out.

I thought this thread might be about a 4th of July in Greece. That ought to be interesting. I will speculate that one's ATM card might not work. :twisted:
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caseynshan
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by caseynshan »

Because I will be booking my flights next week. (Frequent Flyer nerd)
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Rainier
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Rainier »

Would be cheaper on a Greek airline after a conversion. In theory.

Hotels might not be a good deal. Dining out and local goods would be. Bringing dollars and euros to exchange on the black market would be your best bet. Being there during the first few weeks after an exit would be very chaotic and probably a little dangerous with massive civil unrest.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by livesoft »

Rainier wrote:Would be cheaper on a Greek airline after a conversion.
If a Greek airline still exists after few months.
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denovo
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by denovo »

caseynshan wrote:Because I will be booking my flights next week. (Frequent Flyer nerd)

Then you're taking a risk. All anyone can give you is utter speculation. Maybe go for trip insurance or delay booking? But not sure what that covers or how they define insurable risks.
Last edited by denovo on Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sidney
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Sidney »

What's the risk? Based on history, Greek civilization will still be there in 2016. They've been around longer than we have.
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Rainier
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Rainier »

Sidney wrote:What's the risk? Based on history, Greek civilization will still be there in 2016. They've been around longer than we have.
Biggest risk is you pay full price in Euros I think.

Next biggest is massive civil unrest and strikes. Either way, life will go on in Greece. The sooner they take their medicine the sooner they can start to get better.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by denovo »

Sidney wrote:What's the risk? Based on history, Greek civilization will still be there in 2016. They've been around longer than we have.
Sure, but what if Greece goes through a deeper economic collapse that leads to civil unrest, major crime wave, etc, military coup? It's not a matter of Greece being around, more of a matter if one will be comfortable traveling.
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killjoy2012
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by killjoy2012 »

Assuming you're flying from the US to Athens and beyond, what's the financial risk anyway? You're much more likely to be booking AA, Delta/KLM, United, etc. with USD or FF miles -- not Olympic or Aegean Air using Euros.

Greece will still be there in 2016. Although, I would probably hold off on booking hotels until the currency concern clarifies.
denovo wrote: Sure, but what if Greece goes through a deeper economic collapse that leads to civil unrest, major crime wave, etc, military coup? It's not a matter of Greece being around, more of a matter if one will be comfortable traveling.
Even if that was to be the case a year from now, all that would mean to me is stay out of Syntagma Square, and spend your time out on the isles, where you should be anyway!

Plus, someone who is booking an international flight 12 months in advance is already agreeing to take on the risk of some uncertainty.
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Watty
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Watty »

Planing vacation for summer 2016
From everything I have read the Greek Islands can be pretty hot, crowded, and peak prices in the summer when all the Europeans are on vacation. I was there in mid-September a few years ago before the problems started and the weather was wonderful and there were no crowds.

If possible you might want to go in the shoulder season. Most of the time I was able to get nice mid range hotels for around $60 a night on the less popular islands like Naxos and Paros. I looked up one hotel that we stayed in for about $60 in late September and it was around $200 a night in August, and I think we got an upgraded room too. Sanatorini was still busy but we were able to get reasonablly priced hotes there too.

The problem though is that the Greek Islands are at the end of the supply chain and if there are disruptions then there might not be riots there, but they may have supply problems and prices could go up instead of going down.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by harrychan »

There are so many places to go. Greece would not make my top 20 list considering the circumstance.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by michaelsieg »

I would definitely book the flight - it might make sense to pay for travel insurance. We spent a few weeks on the islands years ago (before kids) and it is great - the hotels will still be there, no idea what currency you will need to pay for things, at any rate, they will likely accept Euros, even if they have their own currency by then.
Lifesoft, do you still think equities in Europe might go up with the likely default this Monday ? I transferred some cash to VG in case we have a RBD, hopefully I can take advantage of it....
Looking through the European press, the saga and negotiations might not quite be over, but who knows...
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by dbr »

Middle/end of summer, especially August, is not a good time to visit Greece no matter what the circumstances. September would be better or even a little into October. It is true that traditionally things begin to shut down around the end of September.

We were in a little restaurant in the Peloponnese at the end of September and they got their first rain. The owner was running around saying "Winter is here. Time to close up."
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by livesoft »

The Greeks may all be on migrant boats to Africa by then.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by HongKonger »

I live next door to Greece and I wouldn't book anything before next Wednesday.
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Rainier
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Rainier »

WSJ now reporting Greek banks will not open on Monday. The first stage in an uncontrollable collapse.

What would travel insurance get you? How would you make a claim?
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ResearchMed
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by ResearchMed »

caseynshan wrote:Because I will be booking my flights next week. (Frequent Flyer nerd)
What are the FF terms about putting points back in the "bank"?

If it's possible with just a small penalty, then you've got this as Plan B.

But note any deadlines for changing.

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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by jebmke »

Rainier wrote:WSJ now reporting Greek banks will not open on Monday. The first stage in an uncontrollable collapse.
Could be. Countries are different. I was in Argentina the week they un-pegged from the USD (January, 2001, I think; peso went from 1:1 to 4:1 in one day). They closed the banks for a couple days and put in currency and capital controls. Tighter than I've seen in a developed country since. Surprisingly, things were fairly calm, life went on. The locals got hammered but we had USD (I had taken a wad of 20 dollar bills expecting to pick up some bargains). While there were some protests and a few scuffles in the financial district (which was what the US television showed), most of BA was business as usual.

If Greece was on my short list for travel I'd still plan to go.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by dodecahedron »

Rainier wrote:WSJ now reporting Greek banks will not open on Monday. The first stage in an uncontrollable collapse.
Closing the banks is not necessarily the first stage of an uncontrollable collapse.

Great Britain had an emergency bank closure during the so-called "Sterling Crisis of 1968" when the country was in the course of going off the gold standard. As far as I know, tourists continued to have a jolly good time visiting the country without undue disruption. If I recall correctly, some of my family members traveled there that year without any particular difficulties.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by jebmke »

People bringing money in is not their problem. :)
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by john94549 »

If you want to go to Greece, I'd recommend gobs and gobs of US dollar singles. Stuff your pants, as it were.

Still waiting to see if the new Drachma trades above or below the old Zimbabwean currency. I so love Zimbabwe; its currency was worth less than the paper it was printed upon.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

harrychan wrote:There are so many places to go. Greece would not make my top 20 list considering the circumstance.
Whatever happens, Greece is likely to be a *lot* cheaper in 2016.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

livesoft wrote:The Greeks may all be on migrant boats to Africa by then.
Not.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

john94549 wrote:If you want to go to Greece, I'd recommend gobs and gobs of US dollar singles. Stuff your pants, as it were.

Still waiting to see if the new Drachma trades above or below the old Zimbabwean currency. I so love Zimbabwe; its currency was worth less than the paper it was printed upon.
The American bias of this forum sometimes grates.

The visitor should take lots of Euros. Euros will be the scarce currency, if there is a Grexit (and, in fact, if there is not).

People in Europe value Euros not Dollars. It's been a long time since the dollar was anything but an inconvenient currency you have to convert (within the EU- -Eastern Europe post communism was a little different).

An American might wish to save themselves double currency translation fees, but that doesn't mean you will get good rates on the dollar into the New Drachma (or the Euro) in Greece itself.

The New Drachma could easily be worth half the Euro, yes. BUT Greece is running the largest primary budget surplus in Europe right now (excess of government revenue over spending excluding interest and repayment on public debt). And considerably better than the US or UK.

Given the size of the Greek output gap (actual GDP vs. potential) the steep fall in the Drachma will lead to a one-off surge in inflation. But with 25%+ unemployment, there's not likely to be any kind of wage push on inflation.

Greece is not Zimbabwe. It's not even Argentina, yet. More like Iceland on the brink.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

Rainier wrote:WSJ now reporting Greek banks will not open on Monday. The first stage in an uncontrollable collapse.

What would travel insurance get you? How would you make a claim?
The first stage in a Grexit, yes.

Uncontrollable collapse? No.

Travel insurance presumably pays out in the currency of the country in which you take it out?
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

Just to understand.

The disruption to the financial system of a Grexit is a risk. But that is to some extent "in the price"-- we haven't had a bank run so much as a very fast bank walk, but the Greeks have pulled a large chunk of their personal savings out of the banking system-- much of the deposit base is now ECB money.

Critical imports could be disrupted-- particularly oil, medical supplies. But Greece is not now a country living beyond its means-- it has a 5% primary budget surplus which is much higher than the German one, say (or did before the latest uncertainties). They will find a way to pay for necessary imports (olive oil prices are up anyways due to blight).

Lots of tourists who were going to go to Tunisia will rebook for the northern side of the Med, and Greece post Grexit would suddenly be a whole lot cheaper.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

denovo wrote:
Sidney wrote:What's the risk? Based on history, Greek civilization will still be there in 2016. They've been around longer than we have.
Sure, but what if Greece goes through a deeper economic collapse that leads to civil unrest, major crime wave, etc, military coup? It's not a matter of Greece being around, more of a matter if one will be comfortable traveling.
The crime wave has already happened, making Athens no less safe than other major European cities, I suspect. Military coup? Very unlikely.

Civil unrest? Again already happened. But this will look to the Greek people like something the EU did to them, and their government went the extra mile trying to compromise. Syriza has played it well that way-- even putting the proposed deal to a Referendum. Well played.

Yes Syntagma Square will no doubt have riots (as it has already).

For the average tourist, things are not going to be that different *once* something is done-- right now the banking system is at breaking point. The ECB either stumps up more cash, or there is Grexit. Next couple of weeks could be messy.

One caveat: if you are not white. Golden Dawn has been picking up support. The usual mutterings about Jews and foreigners and gypsies. There have been violent assaults on foreign immigrants. I think there is possibly more risk for a non-white tourist in the large cities.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

Another thing which should be understood.

Greece is at its limit. You don't impose a 25% fall in GDP on a modern democracy, outside of wartime or an extraordinary circumstance like the fall of the USSR (thinking the Baltic Republics), and get away with it. At least not if you then promise them even more pain.

But it's a family oriented society. Most people do at least some gardening and so have domestic food supplies. There are lots of families that still have land in the countryside as well as a city home. 2 and 3 generations live together under one roof. The national health service is not in good shape, but it still functions and delivers universal care. There is a vast and successful diaspora of Greeks everywhere in Europe, in Canada, USA and Australia. Upper middle class Greeks will have assets sitting in London or Swiss bank accounts. The Greek billionaire shipping industry is fully globally diversified. Young Greeks can (and do) go and get jobs all over Europe (I know some in London).

This is not the USA-- a highly atomized individualistic society where people just fall through the cracks. In Greece, they still have family and community (a similar effect has cushioned Spain and Portugal since 2008).

There are ructures in Greek society and politics (Golden Dawn) which are pretty frightening. Mr Putin is out there ready and waiting to lend a hand.

But the chaos which you would see in the USA under similar circumstances, just won't happen in Greece unless things really spiral out of control.

In or out of the Euro, life will go on for Greece and the Greeks.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by bcjb »

Thanks for all your analysis, Valuethinker, also in the other thread.

Greece is almost certainly going to be an excellent travel destination in 2016. If there are riots, they will most likely be confined to central Athens (Syntagma Square), and tourists will be able to stay far away. In all likelihood, the situation will also have calmed down by then.

In 2016, Greece will still be a cheap alternative to Italy, and, depending on what happens in the common months, possibly also a cheap alternative to Turkey and the Maghreb. (Right now, in the middle of this crisis, Turkey is still better value than Greece. Seems crazy, but there you have it.)
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Rainier »

Valuethinker wrote:
Rainier wrote:WSJ now reporting Greek banks will not open on Monday. The first stage in an uncontrollable collapse.

What would travel insurance get you? How would you make a claim?
The first stage in a Grexit, yes.

Uncontrollable collapse? No.

Travel insurance presumably pays out in the currency of the country in which you take it out?
By collapse I mean grexit.

Terrorism is covered, financial collapse is not typically covered by travel insurance.

I'd go, weak currencies are great for travelers.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Rainier »

dodecahedron wrote:
Rainier wrote:WSJ now reporting Greek banks will not open on Monday. The first stage in an uncontrollable collapse.
Closing the banks is not necessarily the first stage of an uncontrollable collapse.

Great Britain had an emergency bank closure during the so-called "Sterling Crisis of 1968" when the country was in the course of going off the gold standard. As far as I know, tourists continued to have a jolly good time visiting the country without undue disruption. If I recall correctly, some of my family members traveled there that year without any particular difficulties.
I agree, the punishment is for the citizens, not travelers. But Greece has no currency and they need one. They need to be able to print their own money.

As a traveler with usd or euros you will be fine.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by dodecahedron »

I am reminded of the fascinating story of what happened in Georgia during the Depression. (Perhaps it happened other places too, I just don't know if it is as well documented.) Municipalities just started printing their own unauthorized local currencies ("scrip") and it became a de facto form of circulating currency,a lifeblood enabling the local economies to function better than it could have otherwise.)

More details of how it worked in this Federal Reserve publication (pages 17 and following.)
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/publ ... 199009.pdf

Sea Island, Georgia, a luxury island resort that fell on hard times in the Depression, managed to survive when the resort owner/major employer issued their own "Sea Island" dollar currency.

The human drive to have a reasonably workable medium of exchange and store of value when normal channels fail is apparently very powerful. The human spirit is an amazing thing.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by john94549 »

dodecahedron wrote:
The human drive to have a reasonably workable medium of exchange and store of value when normal channels fail is apparently very powerful. The human spirit is an amazing thing.
Whether Euros or dollars, I strongly suspect the preferred medium, going forward, will not be the new Zimbabwean currency. The "old" Zimbabwean currency, as I understand, was used in lieu of charcoal.

One thing we can all agree on: the "new Drachma" will have the picture of a person wearing no tie.
Last edited by john94549 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by VictoriaF »

livesoft wrote:
Rainier wrote:Would be cheaper on a Greek airline after a conversion.
If a Greek airline still exists after few months.
They will change emergency Exit signs on airplanes to Grexits.

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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by michaelsieg »

Terrorism is covered, financial collapse is not typically covered by travel insurance.
What would travel insurance get you? How would you make a claim?
I think with many of these insurances you can cancel a flight and get your expense for the flight ticket reimbursed, in case you decide not to take the trip (if the situation there would make a vacation trip undesirable).
Going there is probably the best support one can do for their economy, as it is a large propotion of their economy is (was?) based on tourism ( and I guess with Syriza's repeated verbal attacks against Germany, many German tourists will feel unwelcome and go elsewhere). So it is unlikely to be crowded there next summer.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by celia »

We've been in Greece and were thinking of going back last year to take advantage of the "bargains". But after we considered civil unrest, frequent local transportation strikes/outages, and having had a wallet pickpocketed on the first trip, we decided against it.

Just because something seems like a "good deal", consider why it is a "good deal".
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by HongKonger »

Valuethinker wrote:
john94549 wrote:If you want to go to Greece, I'd recommend gobs and gobs of US dollar singles. Stuff your pants, as it were.

Still waiting to see if the new Drachma trades above or below the old Zimbabwean currency. I so love Zimbabwe; its currency was worth less than the paper it was printed upon.
The American bias of this forum sometimes grates.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by bberris »

Sidney wrote:What's the risk? Based on history, Greek civilization will still be there in 2016. They've been around longer than we have.
The one they have now is not the one they had then.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by bberris »

AP says foreigners will have no limits on ATM withdrawals (presumably from their foreign accounts), and ATMs will open today but with 60 euro limit for domestic accounts.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by TradingPlaces »

HongKonger wrote:I live next door to Greece and I wouldn't book anything before next Wednesday.
About 80 years ago, Germans would bomb everything down.

Nowadays, different type of bomb has been dropped in Greece.

Unless you can recoup a lot of your points back cheaply, I would not book now. Or in 2 weeks. On in 2 months.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by ResearchMed »

michaelsieg wrote:
Terrorism is covered, financial collapse is not typically covered by travel insurance.
What would travel insurance get you? How would you make a claim?
I think with many of these insurances you can cancel a flight and get your expense for the flight ticket reimbursed, in case you decide not to take the trip (if the situation there would make a vacation trip undesirable).
Going there is probably the best support one can do for their economy, as it is a large propotion of their economy is (was?) based on tourism ( and I guess with Syriza's repeated verbal attacks against Germany, many German tourists will feel unwelcome and go elsewhere). So it is unlikely to be crowded there next summer.
Careful about characterizing "these insurances" [travel insurance].

Most travel insurance will NOT reimburse anything if one just "changes one's mind because a trip becomes undesirable".

At best, in most cases, there is an additional-cost coverage Cancel For Any Reason (CFAR) that can add up to 50% of the premium (and sometimes has restrictions on when it can be purchased), and even then, the coverage is typically for 75%, making the traveler share the cost burden of simply "changing one's mind".

(Some packages or cruises might offer 100%, but only as a credit with the same company.)

Whatever coverage one hopes for in travel insurance (any insurance, actually), it is critical to make sure it includes what you want, AND to read the fine print.

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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by sambb »

I wouldn't go based on the total of news
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

TradingPlaces wrote:
HongKonger wrote:I live next door to Greece and I wouldn't book anything before next Wednesday.

About 80 years ago, Germans would bomb everything down.

Nowadays, different type of bomb has been dropped in Greece.

That is an offensively bad use of reasoning by false analogy.


I don't excuse it because Greek politicians have been using it either-- more Greeks were killed post the Nazi occupation (horrible though that was) in the civil war than under Nazi occupation.

The Germans being part of a coalition of European states refusing to lend more money to Greece (that they won't get back) is not the same thing as Hitler and WW2. Whatever the Daily Express thinks. The structure of the Eurozone allowed Greece to borrow too much-- a flaw in macroeconomic design. That's totally different from an armed invasion by a fascist dictatorship (Italy, as it happened, Germany got dragged in very much against its will because of the vulnerability of their southern flank and their ambitions against USSR).
Unless you can recoup a lot of your points back cheaply, I would not book now. Or in 2 weeks. On in 2 months.
Foolish panick. If there is Grexit, many of the problems are already manifest and known. If there is not, then things will shamble along in the current 'normal'.

There is of course the possibility of a breakdown of normal importing and supply chains, particularly of vehicle fuel. But it's likely that foreign exchange mechanisms will emerge quite quickly if there is a New Drachma.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

bcjb wrote:Thanks for all your analysis, Valuethinker, also in the other thread.

Greece is almost certainly going to be an excellent travel destination in 2016. If there are riots, they will most likely be confined to central Athens (Syntagma Square), and tourists will be able to stay far away. In all likelihood, the situation will also have calmed down by then.

In 2016, Greece will still be a cheap alternative to Italy, and, depending on what happens in the common months, possibly also a cheap alternative to Turkey and the Maghreb. (Right now, in the middle of this crisis, Turkey is still better value than Greece. Seems crazy, but there you have it.)
There is a much greater risk of a terrorist outrage against Turkish tourist resorts than against Greek. And as we have seen, Tunisia is also not good. Morocco may be OK (and I hope Tunisia is) but this is the second major attack against tourists in Tunisia in a short period. Over 30 dead.

Egypt is always going to be vulnerable given what is going on there.

Turkey is better value than Greece because it has devalued its currency (given its current account deficit, the strategic situation on its eastern border, the politics in play in Ankara, and the property bubble, Turkey looks very macroeconomically exposed, reminding me of Mexico before the 1994 crisis).
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

On travel insurance.

I was not thinking about trip cancellation.

I was thinking about health care. As long as you have health insurance in place that pays out in Euros or the New Drachma (should it exist), there will be a hospital willing to take you. And an insurer (based in the USA or elsewhere) to honor that claim.
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Wolkenspiel »

john94549 wrote:If you want to go to Greece, I'd recommend gobs and gobs of US dollar singles. Stuff your pants, as it were.
Have you ever traveled outside of the US? You might want to try some time.

To the OP:I would not cancel a Greek trip planned for later this year. Maybe bring some more cash (Euros...) than I would typically do and expect a bit more hassle, but Greece isn't just going to disappear in chaos (and in particular, the tourism industry will be the last sector of the economy standing).
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

dodecahedron wrote:I am reminded of the fascinating story of what happened in Georgia during the Depression. (Perhaps it happened other places too, I just don't know if it is as well documented.) Municipalities just started printing their own unauthorized local currencies ("scrip") and it became a de facto form of circulating currency,a lifeblood enabling the local economies to function better than it could have otherwise.)

More details of how it worked in this Federal Reserve publication (pages 17 and following.)
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/publ ... 199009.pdf

Sea Island, Georgia, a luxury island resort that fell on hard times in the Depression, managed to survive when the resort owner/major employer issued their own "Sea Island" dollar currency.

The human drive to have a reasonably workable medium of exchange and store of value when normal channels fail is apparently very powerful. The human spirit is an amazing thing.
Good spot! Thank you.

Yes other places in the Great Depression did this.

As did Argentine local and state governments before the default of 2002.

Greece could do something similar. But a New Drachma would seem more likely. But a scrip that was redeemable against government tax obligations alone, would immediately give it value.

Tale in today's Guardian of a neighbourhood helping to install a trailer for a brother and sister, in their 60s, who lost their job and their apartment. People giving them money to hook up water.

That's Greece, and Greeks. A tough and traditional people, who still have community values.

I fear the rise of Golden Dawn. I fear what this will do to Europe-- all sides.

The Greeks? They will survive.
Valuethinker
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Valuethinker »

Wolkenspiel wrote:
john94549 wrote:If you want to go to Greece, I'd recommend gobs and gobs of US dollar singles. Stuff your pants, as it were.
Have you ever traveled outside of the US? You might want to try some time.

To the OP:I would not cancel a Greek trip planned for later this year. Maybe bring some more cash (Euros...) than I would typically do and expect a bit more hassle, but Greece isn't just going to disappear in chaos (and in particular, the tourism industry will be the last sector of the economy standing).
+1

It's hard to predict exactly what will break down in a Grexit. But Greece is not on the edge of civil war nor collapse. This is not a highly armed and fragmentary society.
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Steelersfan
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Re: Travel to Greece

Post by Steelersfan »

You won't want to make plane reservations until 3 - 4 months, that being the usual best lead time to get a good air fare.

Since you're asking about summer of 2016, check back in early 2016 when the situation is way better known. Trying to predict something as volatile as the Greek situation this far in advance is impossible, and whatever the situation is on the ground today will be very different then.
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