Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by TomatoTomahto »

555 wrote:It's a switch and bait scam.
if the price were a penny higher than agreed, or any options were missing, I'd agree. Facts can be a PITA, eh?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
edge
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by edge »

555 wrote:It's a switch and bait scam.
OK, explain how.
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bottlecap
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by bottlecap »

TIAX wrote:
bottlecap wrote:
TIAX wrote:This is a financial forum and my advice is strictly that. The OP can decide any moral issues on his own and I'm sure he doesn't need your help.
If you read my post, I did not offer a moral opinion to the OP, so you are way off base.
You certainly did. How else would you interpret your statement that "this thread is a great example of how lawyers get a bad rap when it is, in fact, an unprincipled society that drives the need for lawyers." The only reasonable interpretation is that the breach (and any advice to breach) is a symptom of an "unprincipled" society. That's certainly not financial advice.
in no wayshape or form was I giving OP moral advice. I simply made a comment based on the many responses that the responsibility to pay was somehow related to the identity (and character) of the other party, even if it was an agreed upon deal. My use of "unprincipled" was intentional and, I would submit, not the same as moral. Being principled is not the same as being moral, but one can be principled because of adherence to morals.
TIAX wrote:
bottlecap wrote: As to your point, I guess I have no idea why you raised the idea of efficient breach (perhaps you, too, subconsciously need a moral justification?), but that was off base as well.
Do read the first sentence of the wiki article on Efficient breach.
For S&G's, I did at your request. The notion of an efficient breach is not necessarily off base. What I'm saying that you lack an understanding of it and it is inapplicable to the facts described.
TIAX wrote: And if you had read my post, you would have seen that I stated that "Of course you should check whether the contract provides attorneys' fees to the prevailing party and speak to a lawyer licensed in your state." That is, unless there is a meritorious defense, it may not be a great idea to litigate a breach of contract case with an attorneys' fees provision.

I'll note that many jurisdictions have small claims night court, so you wouldn't need to take time off work.

As far as whether the contract has an attorneys' fees provision, I have no idea, nor do you. I don't see why there would an attorneys' fees when provision when the car was being paid for in full but perhaps you're right. As I stated, that should certainly be taken in into account when determining whether to breach.
I did read your post and responded to it, to which you replied that what made the most financial sense is to fight it, that he didn't even need an attorney, and that he need not be afraid of punitive damages. This ignores the qualifications in your other post (which I forgive, being that you were all outraged at my seemingly "moral" advice!) My point was that attorneys fees and costs will be about as much as punitive damages. Do I know if the contract includes them? No, but if it doesn't the dealer's lawyer will be fired.

And so I'm not accused of not fully responding, while it is true that some jurisdictions run court at night, we don't know that the OP doesn't work the night shift :wink: My point is that there are other costs and hassles involved.

JT
drawpoker
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by drawpoker »

edge wrote:This is totally unrelated. A rebate program facilitated by a credit card company in conjunction with merchants is not the same as a mistake on a bill. If this is the best parallel to be drawn you should probably stop.
Put on your reading glasses, neighbor.

The OP has stated this is Not a "mistake on a bill". The dealer applied a different rebate when he picked up the car.

Now, the dealer is trying to weasel out of his (the dealer's) mistake, and make the OP pay.

As other businessmen on the board have posted, when a business, (whether a car dealer or a Widget Big Box operation) makes a mistake - yep, they get to eat it. They don't go back and harass the customer.
555
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by 555 »

edge wrote:
555 wrote:It's a switch and bait scam.
OK, explain how.
It's a very clever scam. A lot of people here are fooled.
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bottlecap
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by bottlecap »

drawpoker wrote: Put on your reading glasses, neighbor.

The OP has stated this is Not a "mistake on a bill". The dealer applied a different rebate when he picked up the car.
I try not to be snarky for this very reason. OP has not stated this. I don't wear glasses.

OP said the dealer incorrectly applied a rebate to the invoice that did not apply to this car. Nor did the OP say he relied on the rebate to negotiate the contract price. He got an accidental windfall due to what can only be described as a mistake at this point. His only articulated reason for believe he is entitled to this is that he felt the dealer's initial offer was unfair.

But your analogy does not work in either circumstance.

JT
555
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by 555 »

For all intents and purposes, any kind of dealer "mistake" is beyond the realm of possibility.
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bottlecap
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by bottlecap »

555 wrote:
edge wrote:
555 wrote:It's a switch and bait scam.
OK, explain how.
It's a very clever scam. A lot of people here are fooled.
If this is true, call the manufacturer and make them sort it out for you.
Jozxyqk
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Jozxyqk »

bottlecap wrote:
drawpoker wrote: Put on your reading glasses, neighbor.

The OP has stated this is Not a "mistake on a bill". The dealer applied a different rebate when he picked up the car.
I try not to be snarky for this very reason. OP has not stated this. I don't wear glasses.

OP said the dealer incorrectly applied a rebate to the invoice that did not apply to this car. Nor did the OP say he relied on the rebate to negotiate the contract price. He got an accidental windfall due to what can only be described as a mistake at this point. His only articulated reason for believe he is entitled to this is that he felt the dealer's initial offer was unfair.

But your analogy does not work in either circumstance.

JT
Try this:

Dealer signed a document (seemingly inadvertently) agreeing to accept $1,500 less than what the parties originally settled on.

If OP had signed a document without reading it, paid the amount indicated on that document, accepted the car, and then later realized his "mistake" and asked for take-backsies, how generous would you be to him?

My guess is that a lot of these posters would be demanding that he own his mistake and accept the consequences of his failure to read before signing his sacred name.
drawpoker
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by drawpoker »

bottlecap wrote:
drawpoker wrote: Put on your reading glasses, neighbor.

The OP has stated this is Not a "mistake on a bill". The dealer applied a different rebate when he picked up the car.
I try not to be snarky for this very reason. OP has not stated this. I don't wear glasses.

OP said the dealer incorrectly applied a rebate to the invoice that did not apply to this car. Nor did the OP say he relied on the rebate to negotiate the contract price. He got an accidental windfall due to what can only be described as a mistake at this point. His only articulated reason for believe he is entitled to this is that he felt the dealer's initial offer was unfair.

But your analogy does not work in either circumstance.

JT
So, the dealer "incorrectly applied a rebate to the invoice that did not apply to this car". I am quoting you correctly, aren't I, counselor?

So, my question, what's the difference? A businessman (the car dealer) makes a mistake that costs him money.

Any businessman who knows anything about being in B U S I N E S S recognizes this is something he will have to eat.

Why? Not just to retain the goodwill of his customers, but to avoid the kind of fallout and negative publicity this will get when the OP tells his family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, the children's teachers, his softball teammates, the guy sitting next to him on the light rail, the butcher, the candle stick maker, and on and on.

Get the idea?
CFM300
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by CFM300 »

555 wrote:For all intents and purposes, any kind of dealer "mistake" is beyond the realm of possibility.
This is correct. The dealer tried to apply rebates in a manner that would maximize profit, not honor a contract with the buyer. That was the dealer's choice. The dealer was not trying to do any favors for the buyer. The attempt to apply the rebates failed, and the dealer may in fact have received a slap on the wrist from the manufacturer. That the dealer tried to get more out of the deal (by working the manufacturer, rather than buyer) does not change the fact that the dealer decided to let the car go out the door at a different price than originally agreed. If the buyer (the OP) has paperwork signed by the dealer with the lower price and a balance of zero, I would not feel obligated to make the dealer whole on their failed attempt to squeeze more profit from the manufacturer.

But the main point by 555 is correct, there's almost literally no chance that this was some sort of clerical error or that the dealer did not intend to sell the car to the buyer at the price he paid, rather than the price he previously agreed to.
drawpoker
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by drawpoker »

This ^ 1
miles monroe
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by miles monroe »

drawpoker wrote: Why? Not just to retain the goodwill of his customers, but to avoid the kind of fallout and negative publicity this will get when the OP tells his family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, the children's teachers, his softball teammates, the guy sitting next to him on the light rail, the butcher, the candle stick maker, and on and on.
nah. that goes in one ear and out the other. we expect to get screwed over by a dealer.
drawpoker
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by drawpoker »

miles monroe wrote:

nah. that goes in one ear and out the other. we expect to get screwed over by a dealer.
True. But, certainly not to the extent here.

How often do you hear about a respected new car dealership selling a car, letting the customer drive off with a big smile, a hearty handshake, then a week later, calls them up, harassing them and demanding more money for the car?

T H A T is what takes the cake here. :shock:
Browser
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Browser »

You all are shinnying up the wrong tree. It makes no difference whatsoever what the dealer's "intent" was or the reason for the mischarge. It could have been a clerical error or pure evilness. The only thing that makes a difference is what the "mutual understanding of and agreement to the terms of the transaction" were. That's what contracts are for - to establish legal documentation of mutual understanding and agreement. That's why you're supposed to read them and make sure you understand the terms. When you sign a contract you have certified that you do understand and agree to the terms. When the other party signs they have certified the same. Now, if for some reason the transaction is completed in non-accordance with the terms, the contract is breached and either party can seek redress. The problem in this case is that it appears that the original Purchase Agreement is still in force and has not been superseded by a subsequent contract with revised terms. What the OP should have done is to bring the discrepancy to the dealers attention and request a revision or notation to the original contract stating the changed purchase price. Without that, there is no legal evidence that he and the dealer shared a mutual understanding and agreement to the actual terms of the transaction. Of course, the OP didn't want to do that because he thought he might not get away with the lower price because the salesman had made a mistake. I'm afraid that's just how a legal proceeding would view it also and concur that there is no documentation that both parties actually understood and agreed to the revised price. The mere fact that the dealership took the OPs money and transferred the title means nothing in and of itself.
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Gropes & Ray
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Gropes & Ray »

I think the wording of the invoice is very important here. Also any language in the contract that describes the purpose of the invoice. No one can give a definitive answer without reading the agreements.
edge
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by edge »

555 wrote:
edge wrote:
555 wrote:It's a switch and bait scam.
OK, explain how.
It's a very clever scam. A lot of people here are fooled.
Ok, explain it
Browser
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Browser »

Gropes & Ray wrote:I think the wording of the invoice is very important here. Also any language in the contract that describes the purpose of the invoice. No one can give a definitive answer without reading the agreements.
What is this said "invoice" anyway? I never have gotten an invoice with my vehicle purchase. Only thing I left with was a copy of the Purchase Agreement. I seriously doubt that anything called an "invoice" has the legal standing of a contract. Since the OP is clammed up I guess we're left in the dark.
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CFM300
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by CFM300 »

Browser wrote:The problem in this case is that it appears that the original Purchase Agreement is still in force and has not been superseded by a subsequent contract with revised terms.
You don't know that. The OP stated that he has a "final invoice" showing the price of the car at $1,500 less than the prior "contract".

As I have pointed out a couple of times, the OP's invoice might well state that it supersedes all previous written agreements.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by edge »

Your understanding is totally wrong and it is you who should be re-reading.

1) A price X was agreed and the customer signed a contract for price X.
2) A bill /invoice came that was X-1500$ and the customer paid X-1500$.
3) The dealer realized the error and asked for 1500 to get the total price back to X.

This is a mistake on the bill. Why the mistake was made is irrelevant - I would not be surprised if the dealer was trying to game the manufacturer and keep certain rebates to themselves and it backfired on them. However, the customer agreed to X.

If the invoice supercedes the contract then he has legs to stand on. I have never seen such a thing but I am sure it exists.
drawpoker wrote:
edge wrote:This is totally unrelated. A rebate program facilitated by a credit card company in conjunction with merchants is not the same as a mistake on a bill. If this is the best parallel to be drawn you should probably stop.
Put on your reading glasses, neighbor.

The OP has stated this is Not a "mistake on a bill". The dealer applied a different rebate when he picked up the car.

Now, the dealer is trying to weasel out of his (the dealer's) mistake, and make the OP pay.

As other businessmen on the board have posted, when a business, (whether a car dealer or a Widget Big Box operation) makes a mistake - yep, they get to eat it. They don't go back and harass the customer.
Last edited by edge on Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Browser
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Browser »

CFM300 wrote:
Browser wrote:The problem in this case is that it appears that the original Purchase Agreement is still in force and has not been superseded by a subsequent contract with revised terms.
You don't know that. The OP stated that he has a "final invoice" showing the price of the car at $1,500 less than the prior "contract".

As I have pointed out a couple of times, the OP's invoice might well state that it supersedes all previous written agreements.
Color me amazed if that's the case. BTW, I was wondering just how the car loan was handled. If the OP walked into the dealership with a lender check for the contract amount, how was that handled by the dealer? Did they give him $1,500 in change? Don't you think somebody would have noticed that something was amiss with that? I'm not sure we've heard the whole story from the OP. Maybe there's more than one scammer involved here.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by CFM300 »

Browser wrote:What is this said "invoice" anyway? I never have gotten an invoice with my vehicle purchase. Only thing I left with was a copy of the Purchase Agreement.
In my case, I had what I thought was an "invoice", which is the word I originally used, but it turns out that maybe it was in fact a "purchase agreement". As I stated above, my document -- whatever it actually is -- included two different phrases: "Buyer's Order" and "Purchase Deal".

My simple point remains that the OP may have signed and received a copy of a document on the day he actually paid for the car, and that document -- whatever its name ("invoice", "final invoice", "purchase agreement", etc.) -- may state unequivocally, that it supersedes all prior agreements.

If the OP has such a document, then I do not believe that he is legally obligated to pay any additional money.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by drawpoker »

drawpoker wrote:
....How often do you hear about a respected new car dealership selling a car, letting the customer drive off with a big smile, a hearty handshake, then a week later, calls them up, harassing them and demanding more money for the car......
Allow me to make a correction here. Amend my post to remove an oxymoron that I inadvertently wrote.

I meant to say "a well-established new car dealership".

Please note the corrected post, and accept my sincere apologies for the error.

Thank you.

:wink:
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Browser »

CFM300 wrote:
Browser wrote:What is this said "invoice" anyway? I never have gotten an invoice with my vehicle purchase. Only thing I left with was a copy of the Purchase Agreement.
In my case, I had what I thought was an "invoice", which is the word I originally used, but it turns out that maybe it was in fact a "purchase agreement". As I stated above, my document -- whatever it actually is -- included two different phrases: "Buyer's Order" and "Purchase Deal".

My simple point remains that the OP may have signed and received a copy of a document on the day he actually paid for the car, and that document -- whatever its name ("invoice", "final invoice", "purchase agreement", etc.) -- may state unequivocally, that it supersedes all prior agreements.

If the OP has such a document, then I do not believe that he is legally obligated to pay any additional money.
Why are we speculating about this? I'm ringing off this thread until the OP is willing to share some simple information with the posters. This is ridiculous.
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555
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by 555 »

edge wrote:
555 wrote:
edge wrote:
555 wrote:It's a switch and bait scam.
OK, explain how.
It's a very clever scam. A lot of people here are fooled.
Ok, explain it
You explain why not.
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Aptenodytes
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Aptenodytes »

CFM300 wrote:
Browser wrote:The problem in this case is that it appears that the original Purchase Agreement is still in force and has not been superseded by a subsequent contract with revised terms.
You don't know that. The OP stated that he has a "final invoice" showing the price of the car at $1,500 less than the prior "contract".

As I have pointed out a couple of times, the OP's invoice might well state that it supersedes all previous written agreements.
Sorry -- I called it an "invoice" in my original post without having the document in front of me. The document I received at the final transaction didn't have any label or title on it at all, so it is a no-name document.
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Aptenodytes
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Aptenodytes »

Browser wrote:
CFM300 wrote:
Browser wrote:What is this said "invoice" anyway? I never have gotten an invoice with my vehicle purchase. Only thing I left with was a copy of the Purchase Agreement.
In my case, I had what I thought was an "invoice", which is the word I originally used, but it turns out that maybe it was in fact a "purchase agreement". As I stated above, my document -- whatever it actually is -- included two different phrases: "Buyer's Order" and "Purchase Deal".

My simple point remains that the OP may have signed and received a copy of a document on the day he actually paid for the car, and that document -- whatever its name ("invoice", "final invoice", "purchase agreement", etc.) -- may state unequivocally, that it supersedes all prior agreements.

If the OP has such a document, then I do not believe that he is legally obligated to pay any additional money.
Why are we speculating about this? I'm ringing off this thread until the OP is willing to share some simple information with the posters. This is ridiculous.
I will have to look at the document tonight to see if it has any language that says anything about whether or not it supersedes prior agreements.

Radio silence from dealer last 48 hours. Not sure what that means.
CFM300
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by CFM300 »

Aptenodytes wrote:Sorry -- I called it an "invoice" in my original post without having the document in front of me. The document I received at the final transaction didn't have any label or title on it at all, so it is a no-name document.
You might be in luck. My document has no title either, and the phrases "Purchase Agreement" and "Buyer's Order" were buried in a tiny font. As was the language about the document superseding all other agreements. Please do keep us updated.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by LadyGeek »

The same points are getting rehashed multiple times and the thread is getting bent out of shape.

This thread is locked for a 24 hour cool-down period.

The OP can PM me if he wants to reopen the thread sooner.


Update: See below.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by LadyGeek »

OK, I waited 23 hours.

This thread is now unlocked to resume the discussion. Please stay focused on the OP's situation.

Aptenodytes - Someone already PM'd me wanting to know what happened. Do you have an update?
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by hudson »

What is there to learn from this discussion when we buy our next vehicle?

I learned that I'm going into the "closing" with a short simple "cheat sheet" with all the details that I want to check before I pay.
maybe including...the out the door price, warranty details, any free service offers etc.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by Aptenodytes »

Good timing. I was thinking about PMing everyone who chipped in and wasn't looking forward to that.

I want to repeat my thanks to everyone who offered insights. And I wish I didn't have such an anticlimactic "update" but the fact is there is just no movement. To reiterate the sequence:

1) Dealer called me Monday morning to pose the issue / I said let's talk later when I'm not driving. I had a very busy day full of meetings and wasn't able to call, and had the phone on silent during several incoming calls.

2) I thought things over in my own mind, with my wife, and in the context of all your insights. I chose a course of action.

3) Called the dealer twice the next day, getting voicemail both times. Left messages "let's talk" both times. No replies.

4) Crickets since then.

LadyGeek, I'm happy for your to close the thread down again, as I see no need for any further guidance. If someone wants to start a new thread to pursue a question that is gnawing at them, they should do so.

In this current state of limbo and in light of the public nature of this forum I do not feel comfortable either stating what my chosen course of action was nor identifying the brand of the car. I've mentioned many times that I live in the NY metro area so that already narrows the state down to a few contenders, so there's little harm in going ahead and saying that the state in question is NY.
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Re: Car dealer wants me to compensate for underpayment

Post by LadyGeek »

Aptenodytes wrote:...In this current state of limbo and in light of the public nature of this forum I do not feel comfortable either stating what my chosen course of action was nor identifying the brand of the car.
Normally, we would keep the thread open. However, the OP is simply not comfortable discussing this any further. One of our guidelines is:
We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones.
Therefore, let's call this done and relock the thread.

Aptenodytes - Thanks for replying. If you wish to reopen the thread at some later time, please PM me.
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