anyone have experience with water softeners?

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schmitz
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anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by schmitz »

Had our annual water heater checkup and, as I expected, the guy gave me a sales pitch for a water softener.

Now, to his defense, our location (south orange county, California) has notoriously hard water and yes we can see mineral deposits on our faucets so I know its there. But I'm always weary of sales men - I don't like being "had" or told what to buy (like most people, I assume). So even though he made a lot of good points and I know our water is hard, my gut tells me something is wrong. Plus it was for $3000!

So for those who have one, what are your thoughts and experiences on it? Do you remember how much you paid?

Is hard water a serious issue or just something they can use to scare customers into large purchases?
hmw
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by hmw »

I live in TX and the water here is really bad. Have RO for drinking and also installed a water softener. I paid a little over $1400 for a water softner unit a few months ago, installed by Nymbus. Callagan's was a lot more expensive. A friend told me afterwards that I could do it cheaper if I bought a unit on my own, and get a plumber to install it. Not sure if that is true. Water softner is very common where I live.
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fishnskiguy
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by fishnskiguy »

Do your own research. Google around.

Most water softeners remove Calcium and Magnesium but add a ton of Sodium which is bad for the heart. Plus, you will spend half of forever trying to wash off soap in the shower. Not only are they expensive, but most water softener manufacturers recommend you not drink the softened water!

Reverse Osmosis units remove everything including the many minerals that are healthy. :(

Check out the Eddy Electronic Water Descaler on Amazon. At 200 bucks and a one year money back guarantee it might be worth a try. It doesn't remove any minerals but it does claim to prevent scale build up. One caveat: I'm a retired nuclear engineer with a good chemistry background, and still can't figure out how the damn thing works. That said, I'm going to put one in our new house and see what happens.

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bhtomj
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by bhtomj »

We live in Lakewood, CA - close to OC and also well known for hard water. We had deosits on sink hardware, poor results with dishwasher, clothes washer, shower soap and shampoo. Our plumber recommended we get a softener and whole house filter. Last year we ended up purchasing through Costco partner (cannot remember the company).

We are extremely happy with our choice as it really solved all the issues I mentioned. The system included the under sink filters for drinking water. The softener and filter is one unit + the salt unit. Cycles every 7 - 10 days and is pretty loud when it does. We have used sodium and potassium and seen no difference in taste or performance.

Paid around $6800 for everything. We also recieved 10% back on a Costco gift card.
littlebird
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by littlebird »

I lived most of my life in a moderately soft water area, then moved to a moderately hard water area. There was a big difference in dish washing results, in my opinion, and in the condition of plumbing equipment, for the worse. But I didn't really believe in or care for a water softener.

After 18 years with the hard water, we moved to a near-by house that had a water softener already installed and it has made a big difference in those two areas. A few months ago, I noticed that when soaking peanut buttered knives overnight, they were not coming out of the soak almost clean as they did in the soft water area and as they had been doing since we moved into the water softer equipped house. Sure enough, I discovered a detached wire at the softener unit, probably caused 2 weeks earlier when I had the service man change out the by-pass valve. Even he was surprised that I had noticed the difference so soon. I am now convinced! About a year ago, I had the 20-year-old tank (but not the plumbing) replaced and it cost $1000.

If you water your plants from the hose bibs,(or will soon be doing so) make sure that you have a way of by-passing the unit when you do, otherwise you'll be buying salt constantly. In-ground watering systems are in line before the softener unit, so that's generally not a problem.
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deanbrew
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by deanbrew »

fishnskiguy wrote:Do your own research. Google around.

Most water softeners remove Calcium and Magnesium but add a ton of Sodium which is bad for the heart. Plus, you will spend half of forever trying to wash off soap in the shower. Not only are they expensive, but most water softener manufacturers recommend you not drink the softened water!
Yes, please do your own research. Water softeners do add some sodium to your water, but far from "a ton". The amount added is very small and no problem for nearly everyone (and their hearts). Even if you drink a lot of tap water, the amount of sodium will be miniscule compared to most prepared foods and snacks, for example.

As for washing soap off, it does feel different when you have soft water, but you use much less soap, shampoo, laundry detergent and dishwashing soap and liquid. A $3,000 price quote seems exorbitant. I was quoted $1,500 for a system, but I'm pretty sure I'll buy a $400 to $500 unit at Sears and install it myself. Even adding a few hundred for installation should keep you under a thousand bucks.
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lthenderson
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by lthenderson »

I grew up with hard water but bought a whole house water softener unit plus osmosis water filtration system for around $500. I installed it myself on a weekend and have used it ever since.

Soft water feels different when you shower, almost like you have a residue left over but you get used to it quickly. You also have to periodically buy salt to put in the box but those are the two disadvantages that I can think. The advantages are a lot. Soft water cleans so much better than hard water whether it be soaking pans in the sink or in the dishwasher. You won't every have to spend time scrubbing stains off your sinks, toilets, etc. Hard water is hard on water heaters, humidifiers, water dispensers, etc. The money you spend on a water softener will be quickly offset by the increased life you get out of the rest of your water using appliances.
BahamaMan
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by BahamaMan »

fishnskiguy wrote: Plus, you will spend half of forever trying to wash off soap in the shower.
As opposed to having the soap scum stick to your skin?
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bertilak
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by bertilak »

I went with Culligan. I had enough things to think about while having my house built so didn't want to invest much time and energy in evaluating all the various types of water softeners. I'm pretty sure some of them are over-priced (semi?) scams so considered it a risk I'd end up with something no good if I rushed into something off the beaten path.

Culligan has been around forever (well beaten path) so I took the easy way out and went with them. No regrets so far (seven years).
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retiredjg
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by retiredjg »

I spent 11 years in very hard water in Utah. At first, I had a water softener that didn't work. Scum was everywhere. The toilets were particularly bad. I finally broke down and got a new water softener and things were definitely better in terms of mineral scum everywhere. Particularly nice to see the improvement in the toilets.

My understanding is that the cold water line in your kitchen sink is usually plumbed so that it has regular water, not softened water. It appeared so in my case.
jeff1949
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by jeff1949 »

I installed my own system since I am pretty handy at most things.

This is the model that I chose:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_416874-43353-WH ... facetInfo=

It has been 5 years now and I have had zero issues with the unit.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by hicabob »

fishnskiguy wrote:Do your own research. Google around.

Most water softeners remove Calcium and Magnesium but add a ton of Sodium which is bad for the heart. Plus, you will spend half of forever trying to wash off soap in the shower. Not only are they expensive, but most water softener manufacturers recommend you not drink the softened water!

Reverse Osmosis units remove everything including the many minerals that are healthy. :(

Check out the Eddy Electronic Water Descaler on Amazon. At 200 bucks and a one year money back guarantee it might be worth a try. It doesn't remove any minerals but it does claim to prevent scale build up. One caveat: I'm a retired nuclear engineer with a good chemistry background, and still can't figure out how the damn thing works. That said, I'm going to put one in our new house and see what happens.

Chris

Changing water chemistry via sending it through magnetic fields is dubious at best. The fact that it would be so easy to test efficacy by running water through the magnetic field into a beaker, evaporating the water and examining the scale vs water from the same source not sent through the electromagnet then evaporated and that the purveyor does not demonstrate this adds to the scam smell imo.
If it actually changed the chemistry one would think phd dissertations would be abundant. But then, I never believed the magnetic insoles stuff either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_water_treatment
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/magnetic_ ... m_science/
DFrank
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by DFrank »

I live in SoCal, and yes the water is very hard here. We have a water softener, it's the type where we have a service that comes every couple weeks to change the tank. It was there when we bought the house, and I prefer soft water so we've continued to buy the service. I would have to look up what the cost is, but I want to guess it's about $40/month.

Soft water will feel different in the shower, some like it, others do not. I grew up with soft water so I don't like taking a shower in hard water. As I said, it's personal preference.

Another benefit of soft water is it greatly reduces the scale and mineral deposits on your shower, tub, etc.

It may help your water heater lifetime, but I think regular draining/flushing and replacing the anode rod when needed will do more for water heater lifetime than simply changing to soft water.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by deanbrew »

DFrank wrote:I live in SoCal, and yes the water is very hard here. We have a water softener, it's the type where we have a service that comes every couple weeks to change the tank. It was there when we bought the house, and I prefer soft water so we've continued to buy the service. I would have to look up what the cost is, but I want to guess it's about $40/month.
You say "change the tank". Have you ever watched the service people? Are you sure they aren't just adding salt to your tank? I just add salt (the 40-pound bags you see at hardware stores and Sam's Club) every month or two. It costs about $3.50-$4.50 a bag, so the recurring cost of salt averages about $8 a month. If your water is very hard and/or you have high water usage, it could cost a bit more.

I'm not questioning you having a service do it for you, or whether it is worth it to you to have it done that way. I just thought I would post my experience regarding the monthly cost of salt.

And for those who might be thinking that we are adding 80 pounds of salt to our water every month, that's not how it works. The salt brine solution is used to clean the water softener beads, and the vast majority of the salt goes down the drain, not into the water we drink and use for other purposes.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by BahamaMan »

deanbrew wrote:You say "change the tank". Have you ever watched the service people? Are you sure they aren't just adding salt to your tank?
As you said the purpose of the salt is just to clean the beads and 're-charge' them. When folks have their tanks changed, they probably don't even have a Salt reservoir or charging system. The service people just bring in a freshly charged tank. The tank is where the beads are, usually the salt reservoir is a plastic tub next to it.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by bertilak »

BahamaMan wrote:When folks have their tanks changed, they probably don't even have a Salt reservoir or charging system. The service people just bring in a freshly charged tank.
Is that a common practice?

I can see how it might help in cases where people have nowhere to direct the discharge from the regeneration process.

I ran up against that situation unknowingly. The builder of my house simply directed the WS discharge into my septic tank, a real no-no. The septic system failed (not because of the water softener) and when I replaced it the county would not approve the new system unless I redirected the WS discharge. The replacement system no longer used the original drain field (that's what actually failed) so I redirected the discharge into the now otherwise unused old drain field, bypassing the tank. If that was not possible perhaps I could have used that tank replacement option.
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blurryvision
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by blurryvision »

Keep the replies coming. Me and my wife are also looking into a whole house water softener system for our home in the OC. I'm surprised by the range of price quotes.

For those that installed yourself, was it difficult?
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by DFrank »

deanbrew wrote:
DFrank wrote:I live in SoCal, and yes the water is very hard here. We have a water softener, it's the type where we have a service that comes every couple weeks to change the tank. It was there when we bought the house, and I prefer soft water so we've continued to buy the service. I would have to look up what the cost is, but I want to guess it's about $40/month.
You say "change the tank". Have you ever watched the service people? Are you sure they aren't just adding salt to your tank? I just add salt (the 40-pound bags you see at hardware stores and Sam's Club) every month or two. It costs about $3.50-$4.50 a bag, so the recurring cost of salt averages about $8 a month. If your water is very hard and/or you have high water usage, it could cost a bit more.
Yes, I have watched them, and they do replace the tank. It's a metal tank, about 10" in diameter, and it's not immediately obvious to me how you would open it to dump in salt. They come around with a truck load of tanks and replace the one on your house. The tank is located outside the house (we don't have basements here in SoCal).

This is very different than the system I remember from the house I grew up in back east where there was a large plastic tank about 24-30 inches in diameter that you dumped bags of salt in periodically.

It very well may be possible to soften water more cost effectively on a recurring basis, but I don't know what the cost of installing a different type of system would be, and what the resulting payback period would look like. We're planning to sell in 15 months, so we won't be making that investment. :wink:
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by DFrank »

bertilak wrote:
BahamaMan wrote:When folks have their tanks changed, they probably don't even have a Salt reservoir or charging system. The service people just bring in a freshly charged tank.
Is that a common practice?

I can see how it might help in cases where people have nowhere to direct the discharge from the regeneration process.

I ran up against that situation unknowingly. The builder of my house simply directed the WS discharge into my septic tank, a real no-no. The septic system failed (not because of the water softener) and when I replaced it the county would not approve the new system unless I redirected the WS discharge. The replacement system no longer used the original drain field (that's what actually failed) so I redirected the discharge into the now otherwise unused old drain field, bypassing the tank. If that was not possible perhaps I could have used that tank replacement option.
Well that probably explains why we have the type of system we have (tank replacement). We are on a septic system (yes, even in the metro SoCal area there are places where people are on septic systems), and finding somewhere to run the water softener discharge would be difficult.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by deanbrew »

DFrank wrote: Yes, I have watched them, and they do replace the tank. It's a metal tank, about 10" in diameter, and it's not immediately obvious to me how you would open it to dump in salt. They come around with a truck load of tanks and replace the one on your house. The tank is located outside the house (we don't have basements here in SoCal).

This is very different than the system I remember from the house I grew up in back east where there was a large plastic tank about 24-30 inches in diameter that you dumped bags of salt in periodically.

It very well may be possible to soften water more cost effectively on a recurring basis, but I don't know what the cost of installing a different type of system would be, and what the resulting payback period would look like. We're planning to sell in 15 months, so we won't be making that investment. :wink:
Interesting. Thanks for that information and description. That is clearly a different system than I have, which is what you remember from "back east". I have a plastic tank that I dump salt into once every month or two, just as you describe. Just goes to show one can't assume based on personal experience.

My system was in my house when I bought it, so it has to be more than 15 years old, and I'm still using the same beads. From what I understand, the beads themselves last a long time, though I don't know how much longer I can expect. I am on municipal water and sewer systems, so the salty regeneration water gets flushed into my drains and into the town's drainage system.
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adamthesmythe
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by adamthesmythe »

I had a house that came with a system that had been bypassed. I left it that way and eventually removed it.

>Changing water chemistry via sending it through magnetic fields is dubious at best.

It's not dubious (sic) it's totally bogus.

Everybody knows that magnetic fields are for improving gas mileage.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by Bengineer »

adamthesmythe wrote:I had a house that came with a system that had been bypassed. I left it that way and eventually removed it.

>Changing water chemistry via sending it through magnetic fields is dubious at best.

It's not dubious (sic) it's totally bogus.

Everybody knows that magnetic fields are for improving gas mileage.
... and athletic performance.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by hicabob »

adamthesmythe wrote:I had a house that came with a system that had been bypassed. I left it that way and eventually removed it.

>Changing water chemistry via sending it through magnetic fields is dubious at best.

It's not dubious (sic) it's totally bogus.

Everybody knows that magnetic fields are for improving gas mileage.

Yeah, but we strive to be polite :happy .
Now - time to get back to work on my magnet/gravity powered perpetual motion machine.
cudaman
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by cudaman »

I recently bought a whole house water softener/particulate filters/plumbing from Culligan and I'm happy so far. 3,200 smackers. :) The house we recently bought is on well water & the appliance stains were a bunch of work to get clean (as in had to chip them off). I believe it was mostly from manganese. The softener I bought was the HE series capable of not only hard water correction (calcium and magnesium), but iron and manganese as well. That's my conclusion from a bunch of research.

I agree with the above poster regarding salt content of the water. It should be considered as a part of your regular diet in regard to sodium. Also, the better systems do not regenerate that often, thereby minimizing any concern of adverse impact on a septic system. I have a septic system, so do others I know with no impact.

Anyways, time will tell for me. I like the water. :happy
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by littlebird »

[quote=". My system was in my house when I bought it, so it has to be more than 15 years old, and I'm still using the same beads. From what I understand, the beads themselves last a long time, though I don't know how much longer I can expect. I am on municipal water and sewer systems, so the salty regeneration water gets flushed into my drains and into the town's drainage system.[/quote]

My system is like yours. When it was about 20 years old the flow of water from my taps became very restricted on some mornings (right after regen?). I was told that's about the normal life span and usual symptom signaling replacement time has arrived.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by vitaflo »

I've never lived in a house without a water softener. Well except for the month or so we lived in our new house (that didn't come with one). Very hard water here.

My recommendation, having had many different types of units, is get one with the brine tank separate from the mineral tank. The all-in-one units certainly save space, but it's much harder to clean out the brine tanks. When they're separate you can just take the brine tank itself outside and hose it down.

That said of course you may not need one. If you're fine how things are, then there isn't a reason for one. If you get calcium deposits all of your pans after you put them in the dishwasher (like we did) or your hair is flat and lifeless all the time, then you probably want a water softener. It's mostly a quality of life thing, though I can see why the water heater guy wanted to sell it to you, hard water will reduce the effective life of your water heater, since it will build up calcium inside of it without a water softener (assuming you actually do have hard water).

It's easy enough to get your water tested to see how hard it is and then decide.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by lthenderson »

blurryvision wrote:For those that installed yourself, was it difficult?
If you can do some basic plumbing and read installation directions, it isn't difficult at all, especially if you have PVC piping. If you have PEX or copper, you need some more specialized skill sets but they are pretty easy to pick up with some practice. You also need to have some knowledge of your current water and sanitary system though so you can get things plumbed in the correct places.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by bertilak »

lthenderson wrote:If you have PEX or copper, you need some more specialized skill sets ...
And, with PEX, some specialized tools. For example: http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=pex+tool
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by cheese_breath »

We don't need a softener where we live now but had a Kinetico system at a previous home and really liked it. It was completely water powered, no electrical hookups required. And it had two tanks so one could be softening water while the other was recharging. It was more expensive because of the double tanks but IMO worth it. It's been quite awhile so I don't know if they're still as good as they were then, but may be worth looking into. Last time I was at Home Depot I noticed them selling Kineticos there.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by bertilak »

cheese_breath wrote:We don't need a softener where we live now but had a Kinetico system at a previous home and really liked it. It was completely water powered, no electrical hookups required. And it had two tanks so one could be softening water while the other was recharging. It was more expensive because of the double tanks but IMO worth it. It's been quite awhile so I don't know if they're still as good as they were then, but may be worth looking into. Last time I was at Home Depot I noticed them selling Kineticos there.
Do you know if there are any disadvantages to a Kinetico or other water powered systems?

I had one of those (not sure of brand, but it wasn't Kinetico) from the late '70s through the early '90s and had no problems with it. Regen was adjustable based on the amount of water that passed through it. I think it even had a water-powered wind-up clock so that it would only regen during the night. I now have a conventional, electrically powered, WS (with some built-in computer to regulate a variety of things).
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by cheese_breath »

bertilak wrote:
cheese_breath wrote:We don't need a softener where we live now but had a Kinetico system at a previous home and really liked it. It was completely water powered, no electrical hookups required. And it had two tanks so one could be softening water while the other was recharging. It was more expensive because of the double tanks but IMO worth it. It's been quite awhile so I don't know if they're still as good as they were then, but may be worth looking into. Last time I was at Home Depot I noticed them selling Kineticos there.
Do you know if there are any disadvantages to a Kinetico or other water powered systems?
....
I didn't even know there were other water powered systems. As I said, this was quite awhile ago, late 70s to be exact.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by hicabob »

bertilak wrote:
lthenderson wrote:If you have PEX or copper, you need some more specialized skill sets ...
And, with PEX, some specialized tools. For example: http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=pex+tool
That's nice to see the PEX tools are readily available now. About 15 years ago I had so re-plumbing done with PEX and the plumber said you had to go to a class and be "certified" before being able to purchase them and the PEX itself. He gave me the 2 minute class and let me do a few connections with his tools and it seemed easy enough.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by ShenziNation »

You can order from here: http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/wa ... teners.htm

I almost ordered from them, but found an installer who buys from them (matched the online price) and his installation cost was about $200, considering that he had to run the drain pipe into the attic to connect to the master drain. His knowledge of siting the softener and other items was invaluable, since I would have installed in a worse location. Kinda hard to explain in words, but if you were in my garage you would agree.

That site above was recommended by a co-worker who installed his softener by himself. Said it was very easy especially if you have an existing softener, or if in a newer home the builder has installed the pipes for this optional installation.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by cjking »

I have hard water, am about to replace a boiler at vast expense (because repair guy tells me it's scaled up and this is causing constant failures) and wondered about a softener. I came across the Kinetico web site, so I can confirm they are still in business. What has put me off is the requirement to regularly add salt. If I had a unit installed I would literally have to squeeze past pipes then stand on a small stepladder at the back of a large cupboard to get at the only location it would fit. I wouldn't want to do that regularly.

I did come across a Wikipedia page that said electronic/magnetic descaler products were essentially scams. I see someone else got there first, in pointing that out.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by davebo »

We had REALLY hard water at our old house and I was seeing the effects almost immediately after moving into the house. I had a Culligan salesman and one other similar company come out and give me a quote and it as somewhere in the $2,000 range. One of these salesman made a cold-call door to door and my wife asked a couple questions and told him to come back later. I think he thought that a sale was a sure thing when he came back, but I started asking him to tell me specifically why his unit was better than a Sears one that was about 30% of the cost. The only thing he could say was that Sears was junk and I'd end up throwing it out in a few years.

I ended up buying a Sears unit for like $400 and it worked great for the 7 years I lived there. I installed it (with the help of my dad) and I don't remember it being that hard, but I'm sure it's pretty cheap to have a pro do it as well.

The only thing I would recommend would be to make sure to buy a unit that will only recharge i.e. use salt, based on the amount of water you consume and not just on a set schedule.
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deanbrew
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by deanbrew »

cjking wrote:I have hard water, am about to replace a boiler at vast expense (because repair guy tells me it's scaled up and this is causing constant failures) and wondered about a softener. I came across the Kinetico web site, so I can confirm they are still in business. What has put me off is the requirement to regularly add salt. If I had a unit installed I would literally have to squeeze past pipes then stand on a small stepladder at the back of a large cupboard to get at the only location it would fit. I wouldn't want to do that regularly.

I did come across a Wikipedia page that said electronic/magnetic descaler products were essentially scams. I see someone else got there first, in pointing that out.
One thought comes to mind. You can buy softeners which are all-in-one units (the salt tub surrounds the softener), like at Sears, or softeners which have a salt tank that is separate from the softener. The salt tank is connected to the softener with a plastic tube and doesn't require plumbing or power. Could you install the salt tank somewhere nearby that is more convenient to add salt?
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by cheese_breath »

bertilak wrote: Do you know if there are any disadvantages to a Kinetico or other water powered systems?

I had one of those (not sure of brand, but it wasn't Kinetico) from the late '70s through the early '90s and had no problems with it. Regen was adjustable based on the amount of water that passed through it. I think it even had a water-powered wind-up clock so that it would only regen during the night. I now have a conventional, electrically powered, WS (with some built-in computer to regulate a variety of things).
Not to beat a dead horse too much more, but the only disadvantage I recall to the Kinetico was the price because of it having two tanks. But that insured you had softened water whenever you needed it. With a timer controlled recharge if the single tank discharges completely you end up using hard water until the recharge cycle kicks in. That may not be a concern to many, but my wife and I had a blended family with five children between us. That's up to seven showers a day plus normal uses such as dishwasher and clothes washing. And with five children there's a lot of clothes washing. :D I also had a hose bib installed in the garage so I could wash the cars with soft water. It was comforting to know if one tank discharged the Kinetico would automatically switch over to the charged tank.
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cjking
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by cjking »

deanbrew wrote:
cjking wrote:I have hard water, am about to replace a boiler at vast expense (because repair guy tells me it's scaled up and this is causing constant failures) and wondered about a softener. I came across the Kinetico web site, so I can confirm they are still in business. What has put me off is the requirement to regularly add salt. If I had a unit installed I would literally have to squeeze past pipes then stand on a small stepladder at the back of a large cupboard to get at the only location it would fit. I wouldn't want to do that regularly.

I did come across a Wikipedia page that said electronic/magnetic descaler products were essentially scams. I see someone else got there first, in pointing that out.
One thought comes to mind. You can buy softeners which are all-in-one units (the salt tub surrounds the softener), like at Sears, or softeners which have a salt tank that is separate from the softener. The salt tank is connected to the softener with a plastic tube and doesn't require plumbing or power. Could you install the salt tank somewhere nearby that is more convenient to add salt?
The back of the cupboard is separated from a bedroom by a single layer of drywall, I guess I could make a hole in the wall and pour in salt from the bedroom side. In fact there is a walled off void above the bedroom built-in cupboards that the boiler flue runs through, maybe the water pipework could be diverted into that and the whole softener sit in a higher cupboard of its own.

Part of the huge expense of installing a new boiler is that I'm going to have to create access to the flue, anyway. Not just for installing the new one, but apparently new legal requirements say I have to have an inspection hatch.

Apparently the framers of the new law think I am going to be safer from carbon monoxide poisoning if I creating an opening between the flue void and the bedroom I sleep in. :?

(The boiler previous to the now-expiring one died when the flue corroded and the boiler started choking on its own exhaust fumes sucked in from halfway down the flue.)
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by anil686 »

I had a Fleck system installed in Indiana when I lived there with well water - at the time about $800 - was very good and had no problems...
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by Jonathan »

FIRST - buy some hard water testing strips and test your water hardness yourself. This $10 kit from Amazon is fine. Get an understanding of how many grains per gallon your water has, rather than just thinking of it as hard vs. soft.

Water softener TL;DR - hard water flows through a tube/tank which contains resin that softens the water; the resin in the tube/tank occasionally needs to be "recharged" by exposing it to heavily-salted water.


-$3K is high. The total cost should be closer to half that, for a high quality softener, installed. Installation by a trusted plumber of a unit you purchased will be cheaper than going with a specialty water filtration company.

-"Water softeners add unhealthy amounts of sodium to your water" = myth.

-"Water softeners can't drain into septic systems" = possibly a myth; at very least, a questionably-substantiated claim. This possible myth may be related to the fact that, ideally, there should be an air gap or some sort of backflow prevention in place on your softener drain such that, if your septic system backs up, sewage doesn't flow back into the softener tank.

-Add an undersink reverse osmosis water filtration unit for drinking water, like this one: http://www.purewaterproducts.com/reverse-osmosis/ . You can also pipe it to your icemaker for crystal-clear ice. Replace the first cheap filter frequently (6 months), and the others very infrequently (years).

-After installing the water softener, unscrew all sink faucet screens and soak overnight in vinegar to eliminate previous scale. You can do the same with some types of shower heads.

-Softener appears to be running properly, but water is still hard? Most common problem is a "salt bridge". Carefully poke around in the salt tank with a broomstick to loosen up any hardened salt crust. Avoid by not filling your salt tank completely with salt.

-Magnets are for curing cancer, not softening water.
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by bertilak »

Jonathan wrote:-"Water softeners can't drain into septic systems" = possibly a myth; at very least, a questionably-substantiated claim. This possible myth may be related to the fact that, ideally, there should be an air gap or some sort of backflow prevention in place on your softener drain such that, if your septic system backs up, sewage doesn't flow back into the softener tank.
In my case, the overriding concern was county approval and that disallowed discharging into the septic system.

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Jonathan
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Re: anyone have experience with water softeners?

Post by Jonathan »

bertilak wrote:In my case, the overriding concern was county approval and that disallowed discharging into the septic system.
I wonder if the county is concerned about a backed-up septic system coupled with an incorrectly-installed softener drain causing sewage to flow back into the softener tank, which is a reasonable concern. Or that they believe that the discharge brine is harmful to the septic system, which is the less-substantiated position.
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