Restaurant tipping

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Gropes & Ray
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Gropes & Ray » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 am

flyingbison wrote:Referrals are not at all like tips. Regardless, I have had both excellent and terrible service from all types of workers - tipped and not-tipped, high paid and low paid. If tipping is expected as a norm (and clearly it is in the US), then it provides no greater incentive than the wages that other workers receive. I have never worked in job where I receive tips. Somehow, though, I manage to provide effective services to my clients.
Referrals are very much like tips in the sense that some of the compensation, or expectation for future compensation, is dependent on a determination of the quality of service, which is made after the service is rendered. I generally disagree with most of what you said, but I don't think we'll resolve this because our disagreement is clearly born out of different life experiences with the level of service we receive. I find that people in a one-off transaction, or whose compensation is not affected by my decision making, don't put in much effort. Waiters are one class of workers who I think put in more effort to make me happy, despite the fact that there are relatively low odds that I'll ever be served by that waiter again. You seem to have experienced a world where people give good or bad service independent of your ability to affect their compensation. Have you ever received good service at the DMV?

flyingbison
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by flyingbison » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:19 am

Gropes & Ray wrote: You seem to have experienced a world where people give good or bad service independent of your ability to affect their compensation. Have you ever received good service at the DMV?

Correct. And yes, I have received good service at the DMV, just as I have sometimes received very bad service from servers who relied on tips.

Norris
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Norris » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:42 am

William Million wrote:Honestly, these many debates on tipping never go anywhere. Some posters are self-righteous about tipping, others about not tipping.

Morality aside, tipping 20% pre-tax, post-discount for decent service is now the societal norm. We should either accept it, or not eat out at restaurants requiring table service. This is not because tipping is a good idea or a bad idea (I personally think it's a bad idea), but because that's how the system works.
I agree with everything you said!

Norris
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knpstr
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by knpstr » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:55 am

I am always a little confused on the basis of tipping on bill amount.

For example. Go to "normal" restaurant say $20 on bill then 20% tip is then $4.
Go to a fancy restaurant say $60 on bill 20% then tip is then $12.

The same waiter doing the same job one makes 3x the other. Why not just tip a "set" amount.
(the numbers used doesn't really matter, but for illustration):
$15 for excellent service
$10 for average
$5 for poor

Why is it based on the price of food/drinks? In theory if restaurants all charged the same for food/drinks then a larger bill would indicate more service rendered ergo, higher tip is justified... but often times that isn't the case.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

Flashes1
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Flashes1 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:05 am

I'm fascinated by how much passion tipping stirs up on this board. There are true believers on both sides of the argument and people really take it personally. The typical Boglehead is a millionaire----yet we quibble about should we tip 20% of the pre-tax or post-tax amount. :D

jpelder
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jpelder » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:11 am

My general rule is that if the service was bad enough for the server to deserve <15% tip, then it was bad enough to talk to the manager about. Otherwise, you're not being helpful, just cheap

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William4u
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by William4u » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:24 am

jpelder wrote:My general rule is that if the service was bad enough for the server to deserve <15% tip, then it was bad enough to talk to the manager about. Otherwise, you're not being helpful, just cheap
Yup. I give 20% typically. 15% if it was mediocre but not "talk to manager" bad. Below 15% and there is something that will cause problems for future patrons and needs to be addressed by a manager.

amateurnovice
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by amateurnovice » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:34 am

I'm of the mind that servers earn less than they deserve. I think the hourly wages here are around $2.20/hr plus tips, so I tend to tip generously. I would say that provided there were no major catastrophes brought on by the service (not necessarily the meal itself), I leave anywhere from 18% - 25%. If the server does not seem to care about our service, slow in-between times for re-fills, general discourteousness, etc., I won't leave more than 14 - 17%.

Only once in my life did I make it a point to leave a poor tip and I didn't leave any actually. Terribly slow service (it was a Saturday night, but this was a pizza place and it had been over an hour), rude server, rude management, had to wait extremely long while someone stood next to the fountain (which was behind the counter) without refilling my beverage. LITERALLY STOOD THERE LOOKING AT ME WITH THEIR ARMS CROSSED (this was the manager I came to find out). This was one of those chic hipster places where you're expected to cope with angst and entitlement. I told the server (a young girl, probably 19 or 20), I wanted to speak with a manager. She told me the manager was having a bad night. My response was, "I don't give a shit!" Hers was, and I totally understand why, "Don't talk to me that way!" I overreacted a little, but I made my point. I'm never going back there.

tj
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by tj » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:54 am

To all these people who apparently live places where tipped employees have special minimum wages (is this also true for hairstylists and such?), would you have the same tipping philosophy if the tipped employees in your state make normal minimum wage?


My philosophy is that tipping on the $$ amount is done (it shouldn't make a difference if I order a free water or a $12 shot) - I'll usually tip 15%-20%, but I suppose I manage it by not going to expensive places or ordering the $12 shots.

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Abe
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Abe » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:58 am

This thread demonstrates the problems ingrained in the tipping system.
Slow and steady wins the race.

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JonnyDVM
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by JonnyDVM » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:00 am

knpstr wrote:I am always a little confused on the basis of tipping on bill amount.

For example. Go to "normal" restaurant say $20 on bill then 20% tip is then $4.
Go to a fancy restaurant say $60 on bill 20% then tip is then $12.

The same waiter doing the same job one makes 3x the other. Why not just tip a "set" amount.
(the numbers used doesn't really matter, but for illustration):
$15 for excellent service
$10 for average
$5 for poor

Why is it based on the price of food/drinks? In theory if restaurants all charged the same for food/drinks then a larger bill would indicate more service rendered ergo, higher tip is justified... but often times that isn't the case.
Your server at a fancy restaurant should be better than at a cheaper restaurant. They should know the menu inside and out and should be able to make wine recommendations ect. Typically, they will be taking your order without writing it down and everything will be entered correctly. They should frequently check on you to make sure your dining experience is up to par. Also, they will have less tables to wait on because they are receiving more in tips then a server at a more economical eatery. A large party (>8) should have two servers to make sure everyone enjoys their experience. A well run high end restaurant generally will not hire anyone without some previous food service experience. I used to work at a food runner for Ruth's Chris working my way up from server assistant. I made $12-$14/hr (mid 2000's). It is hard work. No one is getting rich. Sometimes trash would come in, order $99 worth of food order the staff around like a pharaoh and pay with a $100 gift certificate. If your service is not up to the standard it should be at a nice restaurant then don't tip 20%. If it is, you should be tipping appropriately or not eating at a nice place.

In addition, I used to work as a caddy in high school, and later running the beverage cart and food counter at a different golf course. These are also hard jobs where tips are generally given. Imagine carrying two golf bags(one on each shoulder) for a pair of older ladies who have never carried their own bags and have no concept of how absurdly heavy theirs are compared to every one else's. A nice tip makes the day a lot more enjoyable. You have no idea how much a few bucks means to a kid in high school/college unless you've been on the other side of the service industry. I tip generously. I tip generously in the United States and I tip generously when traveling abroad. It makes people happy. That's why I get so perturbed when I hear about frugal Bogleheads stiffing their servers. You are taking the opportunity to make someone's day a little brighter and instead going out of your way to ruin it. There's a Dicken's novel with a character just like many of you.
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Gropes & Ray
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Gropes & Ray » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:10 am

In response to tj:

Waiters in my state make $2.83/hr. If they were increased to minimum wage, it would be around an $8,000 raise. I'm guessing waiters' incomes are around $30-35k. So, even if they got a raise to minimum wage, we would still have to tip, but maybe I would tip 18% instead of 20%. For waiters to maintain their incomes without tips, I think they would have to make $15-17/hr.

I think (but I'm not certain) that any tipped employees can be paid $2.83/hr in my state, as long as tips make up the difference.

fund
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by fund » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:17 pm

Flashes1 wrote:I'm fascinated by how much passion tipping stirs up on this board. There are true believers on both sides of the argument and people really take it personally. The typical Boglehead is a millionaire----yet we quibble about should we tip 20% of the pre-tax or post-tax amount. :D
Is this true? Not challenging, just asking. I'm certainly not anywhere close to typical, if that's accurate.

JonnyDVM wrote: ... I used to work at a food runner for Ruth's Chris working my way up from server assistant. I made $12-$14/hr (mid 2000's). It is hard work. No one is getting rich. Sometimes trash would come in, order $99 worth of food order the staff around like a pharaoh and pay with a $100 gift certificate. If your service is not up to the standard it should be at a nice restaurant then don't tip 20%. If it is, you should be tipping appropriately or not eating at a nice place.

In addition, I used to work as a caddy in high school, and later running the beverage cart and food counter at a different golf course. These are also hard jobs where tips are generally given. Imagine carrying two golf bags(one on each shoulder) for a pair of older ladies who have never carried their own bags and have no concept of how absurdly heavy theirs are compared to every one else's. A nice tip makes the day a lot more enjoyable. You have no idea how much a few bucks means to a kid in high school/college unless you've been on the other side of the service industry. I tip generously. I tip generously in the United States and I tip generously when traveling abroad. It makes people happy. That's why I get so perturbed when I hear about frugal Bogleheads stiffing their servers. You are taking the opportunity to make someone's day a little brighter and instead going out of your way to ruin it. There's a Dicken's novel with a character just like many of you.
Similar story here: I was a busboy in high school. Very hard work, especially double shifts. We shared in the tips given to the wait staff and bartenders, and that was a lot of money to a high school kid. My regular hourly pay rate was around $2/hr or something like that. Tips were what made the job worth it. I still remember this job, even all these years later, to the point that I'll stack dishes and silverware neatly and hand them to the busboys or wait staff to help out. And of course we leave good tips. However folks may feel about tipping in the United States, it seems safe to assume that most, though by no means all, forum members are located here. That's the system we have. I sort of wonder if there aren't other things of more pressing concern to get so fired up about. Like Flashes1, I'm also fascinated by the level of passion this topic has incited. We're on page 4 already, and another forum member posted a long list of other threads on this same topic.

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knpstr
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by knpstr » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:48 pm

JonnyDVM wrote: Your server at a fancy restaurant should be better than at a cheaper restaurant.
Not that I ever dine at extremely fancy places, but in my experience in dining out I have found no such correlation of price of food sold as having a better wait staff.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

fareastwarriors
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by fareastwarriors » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:19 pm

fund wrote:
Flashes1 wrote:I'm fascinated by how much passion tipping stirs up on this board. There are true believers on both sides of the argument and people really take it personally. The typical Boglehead is a millionaire----yet we quibble about should we tip 20% of the pre-tax or post-tax amount. :D
Is this true? Not challenging, just asking. I'm certainly not anywhere close to typical, if that's accurate.

JonnyDVM wrote: ... I used to work at a food runner for Ruth's Chris working my way up from server assistant. I made $12-$14/hr (mid 2000's). It is hard work. No one is getting rich. Sometimes trash would come in, order $99 worth of food order the staff around like a pharaoh and pay with a $100 gift certificate. If your service is not up to the standard it should be at a nice restaurant then don't tip 20%. If it is, you should be tipping appropriately or not eating at a nice place.

In addition, I used to work as a caddy in high school, and later running the beverage cart and food counter at a different golf course. These are also hard jobs where tips are generally given. Imagine carrying two golf bags(one on each shoulder) for a pair of older ladies who have never carried their own bags and have no concept of how absurdly heavy theirs are compared to every one else's. A nice tip makes the day a lot more enjoyable. You have no idea how much a few bucks means to a kid in high school/college unless you've been on the other side of the service industry. I tip generously. I tip generously in the United States and I tip generously when traveling abroad. It makes people happy. That's why I get so perturbed when I hear about frugal Bogleheads stiffing their servers. You are taking the opportunity to make someone's day a little brighter and instead going out of your way to ruin it. There's a Dicken's novel with a character just like many of you.
Similar story here: I was a busboy in high school. Very hard work, especially double shifts. We shared in the tips given to the wait staff and bartenders, and that was a lot of money to a high school kid. My regular hourly pay rate was around $2/hr or something like that. Tips were what made the job worth it. I still remember this job, even all these years later, to the point that I'll stack dishes and silverware neatly and hand them to the busboys or wait staff to help out. And of course we leave good tips. However folks may feel about tipping in the United States, it seems safe to assume that most, though by no means all, forum members are located here. That's the system we have. I sort of wonder if there aren't other things of more pressing concern to get so fired up about. Like Flashes1, I'm also fascinated by the level of passion this topic has incited. We're on page 4 already, and another forum member posted a long list of other threads on this same topic.

I worked as a busboy at a restaurant in high school. The work sucked and it was hard. I was dead tired by the end of the shift most of the time. I was paid minimum wage and tips. I worked hard and did well because it was my job. I didn't work harder/better just because someone gave a bigger tip. I tried to do my best every shift regardless.

When I visit restaurants these days, I am reminded of my past. The job is not that hard. I did it before so you can too. In fancier places, my expectations are even higher but yet often I'm disappointed. When the service is good, to me, that is just doing your job. It should be good all the time.
I tip 10-20%. I know I'm not crazy generous but I don't think I'm a miser either. Some service people just suck but yet it seems they demand high tips. Yea right.

DaftInvestor
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by DaftInvestor » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:40 pm

I'm in the "If the service isn't good tip 15% but don't return" camp. If the service is good - I'll do 20%.
My only exception is if I spend a lot of time somewhere and my bill isn't high I'll go higher. For instance - I'm at an airport and don't feel like buying alcohol. I might sit at a bar or restaurant at the airport - order a salad and club soda - and then have the waiter or bar tender refill my club soda 3 or 4 times. Paying only a $3 tip because the bill is only $15 seems unfair so I'll be generous and dole out a few more dollars....

hudson
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by hudson » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:44 pm

I used to work as a bellhop when I was in my 20s. Tips made it worthwhile to drive 50 miles of bad roads nightly...and to be sleepy in class the next day. I tip at least 20%. I do like to read your rationales for tipping and your systems. I could very well read your rationale and change my system.

Crow Hunter
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Crow Hunter » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:28 pm

We don't eat out at "nice" restaurants at all.

To my wife and myself, "nice" is a O'Charley's or Logan's.

If I have very poor service, I don't tip at all. If I have barely adequate service, I tip 10%. If I have good service, I tip 20%. If I have exemplary service I tip way more.

I have one instance of each of the normal curve tails in the last 10 years.

Once was at a Corky's barbecue. The server only came by our table one time to get our order. Never refilled our drinks after bringing them with the meal. Stood around talking the rest of the time in plain view. When we finally received our food, 30 min after it should have been delivered, it was cold. The baked beans had formed a "skin" over the top. Obviously it had been sitting for a while. I asked to see the manager, neither the manager nor the server ever showed back up. I left a dime for a tip. The server, who couldn't be bothered to bring us our food did manage to follow me out to bring back my dime after I left the building and said in a sarcastic tone that I had "forgotten something". I thanked her very politely and told her that she was right, I hadn't actually meant to leave a tip at all. Apparently she thought that she was entitled to a tip for actually doing nothing. I never went back and it promptly shut down.

The other outlier was at a Logan's. I have never had such good service. The gentleman who was our server literally never let an empty glass hit the table. He was there with refills without prompting. He was extremely polite and talkative and our orders were perfect and he checked on us multiple times to make sure everything was okay. At the end of the meal, I asked him if I could see the manager. He had the most horrified look on his face. When the manager came over I told him that I had never had such excellent service before and that the young man was the best server that I had ever had. The manager laughed and said that he heard that a lot and that the young man was actually an accountant full time that had recently graduated from college and continued to work there on the weekends because he enjoyed it and to earn extra money. Who knows, he may actually be a Boglehead. :D I gave him what amounted to a 100% tip.

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Random Musings
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Random Musings » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:36 pm

Crow Hunter wrote:I have one instance of each of the normal curve tails in the last 10 years.

Once was at a Corky's barbecue. The server only came by our table one time to get our order. Never refilled our drinks after bringing them with the meal. Stood around talking the rest of the time in plain view. When we finally received our food, 30 min after it should have been delivered, it was cold. The baked beans had formed a "skin" over the top. Obviously it had been sitting for a while. I asked to see the manager, neither the manager nor the server ever showed back up. I left a dime for a tip. The server, who couldn't be bothered to bring us our food did manage to follow me out to bring back my dime after I left the building and said in a sarcastic tone that I had "forgotten something". I thanked her very politely and told her that she was right, I hadn't actually meant to leave a tip at all. Apparently she thought that she was entitled to a tip for actually doing nothing. I never went back and it promptly shut down.

The other outlier was at a Logan's. I have never had such good service. The gentleman who was our server literally never let an empty glass hit the table. He was there with refills without prompting. He was extremely polite and talkative and our orders were perfect and he checked on us multiple times to make sure everything was okay. At the end of the meal, I asked him if I could see the manager. He had the most horrified look on his face. When the manager came over I told him that I had never had such excellent service before and that the young man was the best server that I had ever had. The manager laughed and said that he heard that a lot and that the young man was actually an accountant full time that had recently graduated from college and continued to work there on the weekends because he enjoyed it and to earn extra money. Who knows, he may actually be a Boglehead. :D I gave him what amounted to a 100% tip.
Exactly. You reward good behavior. If you reward bad behavior, where is the incentive to change?

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tj
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by tj » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:01 pm

One of the things that frustrates me in the industry is when they just refill without asking. Maybe I only want one soda and want to switch to water. I don't tip less for this though.

Unless I am with friends, I generally eat at places where I fill up my own drink, and thus don't feel compelled to leave a tip. It is annoying when some of the places have lines for tips on the receipt though. (anything that's not a huge chain)

I purposefully eat at the "take out" place (or take it to go) rather than order delivery so that i don't have to tip (I used to deliver pizzas), so it's a bit frustrating, that a lot of those places have tip spots on the receipt.

Frugal or not - If I was a millionaire, I would probably just order delivery more and tip appropriately.

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kenyan
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by kenyan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:16 pm

fareastwarriors wrote: When I visit restaurants these days, I am reminded of my past. The job is not that hard. I did it before so you can too. In fancier places, my expectations are even higher but yet often I'm disappointed. When the service is good, to me, that is just doing your job. It should be good all the time.
I tip 10-20%. I know I'm not crazy generous but I don't think I'm a miser either. Some service people just suck but yet it seems they demand high tips. Yea right.
I have a friend who has worked for most of her life as a waitress or bartender. She believes that they deserve 25% as a minimum, up to 50% for good service.

I can't speak to whether or not she delivers poor service personally, but I do know that she has been fired in the past for doctoring credit card receipts for larger tips. That seems like it would qualify for "suck."

I've worked a couple of minimum wage jobs as well - one was easy, but the other was at a sub shop and was nonstop for 8 hours (8:15 less a 15 minute meal taken outside of the rush periods). I did not work any less hard in that job than wait staff at other restaurants, but I never received a dime in tips - don't think tip jars were common back then. I'm not sure why people seem to be equating generous tipping with treating someone with respect or humanity. If you are a complete jerk to a waiter, and then spring a 25% tip on them, does that make your actions ok?

I certainly would be fine with abolishing tips and increasing wages (and prices) in restaurants to compensate.
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kenyan
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by kenyan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:19 pm

tj wrote: I purposefully eat at the "take out" place (or take it to go) rather than order delivery so that i don't have to tip (I used to deliver pizzas), so it's a bit frustrating, that a lot of those places have tip spots on the receipt.
The tip line has been a peeve of mine for many years, though it bothers me less nowadays (and I no longer feel bad about crossing it out or ignoring it altogether). One pizza place that has annoyed me lately is a large chain that allows for payment online, but when I show up they make me sign the receipt - in essence signing it twice - in order to try to guilt me into tipping for my pickup order.
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by linenfort » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:29 pm

amateurnovice wrote: Hers was, and I totally understand why, "Don't talk to me that way!" I overreacted a little, but I made my point. I'm never going back there.
Well, the silver lining to that experience is that your post made me laugh out loud. I like to read through some of these posts before I go to a restaurant. For some reason, it gives me perspective in case I get bad service or things go sour.

I do think William Million and a few posters before him are absolutely right. Tipping a minimum of 15-20% for a reasonable amount of satisfactory service might not be technically compulsory, but it is the system.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by tj » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:56 pm

linenfort wrote:
amateurnovice wrote: Hers was, and I totally understand why, "Don't talk to me that way!" I overreacted a little, but I made my point. I'm never going back there.
Well, the silver lining to that experience is that your post made me laugh out loud. I like to read through some of these posts before I go to a restaurant. For some reason, it gives me perspective in case I get bad service or things go sour.

I do think William Million and a few posters before him are absolutely right. Tipping a minimum of 15-20% for a reasonable amount of satisfactory service might not be technically compulsory, but it is the system.
I've always believed that 20% is for amazing, 15% is standard, 10% is for medicore and 0% is for crap. :) - crap being the waitress who never brought us our bill after like 30 minutes....

If 20% is for "satisfactory", then I wonder how much some of you people tip for excellent service, and also wonder the dollar amounts of what you order.... ;)

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by linenfort » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:01 pm

tj wrote:If 20% is for "satisfactory", then I wonder how much some of you people tip for excellent service, and also wonder the dollar amounts of what you order.... ;)
Like a poster above, I definitely avoid ordering a $12 shot. Better to treat myself to the occasional shot at home.

TravelerMSY
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by TravelerMSY » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:24 pm

I vote for service included and let the employees duke it out with their employers instead of us. I'm alright with tipping but it would fairer if it were just built into the pricing, Why should my above-average tips subsidize those who leave less? Or nothing.

TravelerMSY
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by TravelerMSY » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:33 pm

And it the US tipping system is so great- why is it that none of the diners can come up with an argument of how it benefits them financially, rather than the empathy/social justice arguments? The only real advocates seem to be servers and former servers who have some emotional justification for it.

Gropes & Ray
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Gropes & Ray » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:30 am

TravelerMSY wrote:And it the US tipping system is so great- why is it that none of the diners can come up with an argument of how it benefits them financially, rather than the empathy/social justice arguments? The only real advocates seem to be servers and former servers who have some emotional justification for it.
I have argued that compensating the waiter after receiving service leads to better service. Others disagreed. I didn't intend to argue that I think it's a great system, but I do think tipping leads to better service on average that we would have without it. My issue with tipping is that it causes those of us who participate in the system to subsidize those who simply refuse to tip, despite the fact that they chose to eat in a restaurant where tipping is an expected part of the system. If I did not tip, I certainly wouldn't become a regular anywhere unless I liked the taste of spit...

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Johno » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:56 am

Gropes & Ray wrote:
TravelerMSY wrote:And it the US tipping system is so great- why is it that none of the diners can come up with an argument of how it benefits them financially, rather than the empathy/social justice arguments? The only real advocates seem to be servers and former servers who have some emotional justification for it.
I have argued that compensating the waiter after receiving service leads to better service. Others disagreed. I didn't intend to argue that I think it's a great system, but I do think tipping leads to better service on average that we would have without it. My issue with tipping is that it causes those of us who participate in the system to subsidize those who simply refuse to tip, despite the fact that they chose to eat in a restaurant where tipping is an expected part of the system.
I agree. I don't like the system, seems few diners do at least in this unscientific sample. But that's because downside outweighs upside from my subjective POV, not because it's 100% downside. It's naive IMO to assume the system has *no* positive impact on how nicely tipped workers will treat you or see to your needs. As in the earlier exchange 'have you ever been treated well at the DMV?', I'd also say yes I have, sometimes, and I'm personally pretty indifferent to stuff like that anyway unless it's pretty extreme. But that doesn't overcome basic common sense micro-economics that a service worker will tend to be more conscious of the customer's evaluation of their performance if there's something directly in it for them to do so.

It somewhat reminds me of car shopping debates. Few people like car shopping either, but 'no haggle' pricing is generally set higher than what you can get as a hard nosed haggler. Likewise in the European Utopia (that's what EU stands for, right? :wink: ) there's less haggling over car prices, and people typically pay considerably more. Again basic social/cultural outlook tends to come to the fore: 'I don't care if I get poorer value as long as everyone else also does and fewer feelings are hurt', yes or no? But restaurant tipping system is a fairly trivial issue. In fact people who work in restaurants can work at a fairer one, or do something else in the long run, if the system is *really* unfair to them, and difference in tipping % is a pretty small part of most diners' budgets. But again that's another basic social/cultural difference, whether state interference in the economy should be the first resort for anything that doesn't strikes one's fancy just right, or a last resort for really serious problems with no other solution.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:08 pm

Gropes & Ray wrote:Have you ever received good service at the DMV?
Absolutely yes I have. When I lived in upstate NY the DMV I used to go to rarely had more than a 5 minute line, and the people at the desk there were super helpful in explaining to me as a new resident of NY how everything worked. More than once I had to run out to my car to get some paperwork I forgot, and they sat there patiently holding my spot and were nothing other than cheerful. They were patient, understanding, and forgiving. They recognized that filling out a bunch of paperwork isn't fun, and used humor and good spirit to make the best of the situation.

I also went to the Staten Island DMV where I had to wait 4 hours just to talk to someone and they weren't rude, but were obviously stressed out and not quite as cheerful.

My doctor is always cheerful whenever I go to see her, and I believe she provides excellent service to me. I don't tip her.

I receive excellent service from most cashiers I encounter, with the exception being Walmart where they all seem like they're going to commit suicide any moment. The guy behind the counter at McDonald's is super cheerful. The girl behind the counter at the frozen yogurt place I frequent is always smiling and always willing to go out of the way to provide excellent service. I never tip any of these people.

What I find is that when you smile first, a genuine, true, honest smile, you're going to get perfectly decent service 90% of the time. Use "please" and "thank you" and speak clearly, and be friendly. I very rarely have poor customer service experiences.
Last edited by toto238 on Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:11 pm

I don't see any difference in behavior from tipping vs non-tipping establishments. As someone who used to work on tips, I know the size of the tip gave me absolutely no motivation to work harder. Because 99% of people THINK they tip based on service, but they actually don't. They get a first impression of you in the first 30 seconds, and unless you screw up royally, they're going to give you what they were already planning on giving you. There's absolutely zero motivation to go "above and beyond". Your manager doesn't like it when you go "above and beyond" because it usually means you had to waste resources by offering to replace a food the customer didn't like or something along those lines. The client very rarely if ever recognizes that you worked harder than you were supposed to.

Basically, as a waiter, you're going to encounter one of two types of people.

1. People who are in a great mood, and as long as you don't screw up royally, you'll get a decent tip from them.
2. People who are not in a great mood, are probably rarely in a good mood, and are going to screw you on the tip no matter. They're going to ruin your night, humiliate you, try to get free stuff out of you, and take away your attention from the tables you actually want to help.

Your waiter has figured out which one you are within 30 seconds, just as you've subconsciously decided what you're going to tip them in that same time period.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Johno » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:33 pm

toto238 wrote:
Gropes & Ray wrote:Have you ever received good service at the DMV?
What I find is that when you smile first, a genuine, true, honest smile, you're going to get perfectly decent service 90% of the time. Use "please" and "thank you" and speak clearly, and be friendly. I very rarely have poor customer service experiences.
I'm sure everyone appreciates your lessons in how to deal with people as much as I do Toto, thanks for them, but it still doesn't convince me water flows up hill in the basic and simple micro-econ situation where a person can do a bit better (monetarily), on average, at the margin, by being more pleasant to get a bigger tip. If your idea is based on that not being true, at all, it's kind of out to lunch IMO but there's no point in going back and forth on it repeatedly. And there's a lot of apples and oranges in your examples but those are also pretty much irrelevant. When it comes down to it tipping in restaurants is a social convention. It's obvious the world doesn't come to a halt where the convention doesn't apply, but it's very far from obvious to me it would rise to the level of something the state should use its coercive powers to change. And if not, then conventions/customs tend to change slowly, or just not change. And again my solution is basically just to tip in the 20% range without much variation, and not pay much attention to what others do, when it's not my business. I don't however think that makes me a superior human being, nor does it have much to do one way or another with how polite or respectful I am. I think you're just mixing up different things there mainly.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by deanbrew » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:36 pm

Basically, as a waiter, you're going to encounter one of two types of people.

1. People who are in a great mood, and as long as you don't screw up royally, you'll get a decent tip from them.
2. People who are not in a great mood, are probably rarely in a good mood, and are going to screw you on the tip no matter. They're going to ruin your night, humiliate you, try to get free stuff out of you, and take away your attention from the tables you actually want to help.

Your waiter has figured out which one you are within 30 seconds, just as you've subconsciously decided what you're going to tip them in that same time period.
I've never worked as a waiter, so I can't refute this on that basis, but I can certainly refute it from my own standpoint. What I leave as a tip varies based on a number of factors, and the quality of service is at the top of the list. My tip varies by a large amount based on service, as in I'll leave 10% or even less for lousy service and 20% or even more for great service.

Having said that, I do believe that a lot of people are predisposed to leave lousy tips ("I don't get paid tips at my job", "you don't have to leave a tip, it's extra") or great tips ("I used to work as a server, and know how hard it is", "20% is the expected amount for average service", "boy, she's cute and smiled at me"). And, yes, it seems that there are people who are just perpetually in a bad moods, and they probably are lousy tippers.

I'll also cop to not completely tipping based on price. I tend to more often go to places that have $8 sandwiches and $3.00 beers than places that have $16 sandwiches and $6 beers. I'll leave a larger tip, on a percentage basis, at the cheaper place. In other words, my tip doesn't double just because the menu prices do.
"The course of history shows that as the government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by German Expat » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:12 pm

I go with the flow, since tipping is part of how the system works in the US I tip between 15% and 25%.

After having moved to Switzerland tips here are very low and people make a living wage. Service is not worse either. Just went to Italy and went to a Michelin star restaurant. Service was excellent and tipping not required, actually a lot of Italian's don't tip at all, I left 10 Euro. Best service I tend to get is in Japan and no tipping either, last time the taxi driver gave me money back because he missed a turn and had to take a (very short) detour. China tipping used to not exist, it has changed a bit over the years but you would bargain for free fruits at the end rather then paying a tip.

I did have bad service as well in multiple countries regardless of tipping or not. Even in the US I can leave a lower tip but I also tend to not go back because bad service is usually lousy management (and its the managements job to deal with bad waiters and not mine doing this via a tip) because at the end the restaurant owner will loose out.

Either way works for me, tip or not tip, its just different culturally. A bit annoying sometimes though when you go to a new country and have to find out the local customs first.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:58 pm

Johno wrote:
toto238 wrote:
Gropes & Ray wrote:Have you ever received good service at the DMV?
What I find is that when you smile first, a genuine, true, honest smile, you're going to get perfectly decent service 90% of the time. Use "please" and "thank you" and speak clearly, and be friendly. I very rarely have poor customer service experiences.
I'm sure everyone appreciates your lessons in how to deal with people as much as I do Toto, thanks for them, but it still doesn't convince me water flows up hill in the basic and simple micro-econ situation where a person can do a bit better (monetarily), on average, at the margin, by being more pleasant to get a bigger tip. If your idea is based on that not being true, at all, it's kind of out to lunch IMO but there's no point in going back and forth on it repeatedly. And there's a lot of apples and oranges in your examples but those are also pretty much irrelevant. When it comes down to it tipping in restaurants is a social convention. It's obvious the world doesn't come to a halt where the convention doesn't apply, but it's very far from obvious to me it would rise to the level of something the state should use its coercive powers to change. And if not, then conventions/customs tend to change slowly, or just not change. And again my solution is basically just to tip in the 20% range without much variation, and not pay much attention to what others do, when it's not my business. I don't however think that makes me a superior human being, nor does it have much to do one way or another with how polite or respectful I am. I think you're just mixing up different things there mainly.
From a micro-econ situation, consider the real estate agent who is selling your house for you. The real estate agent gets paid a % of what she sells your house for, so you THINK it's in her best interest to get the highest price possible. Not so. What's in her best interest is to sell yours for a decent price asap, then spend her attention on the next person. Freakonomics does a good explanation of this if you want to research it further.

This same logic applies to waiters. A waiter knows that if he does twice as much work as he usually does, he'll get 22% instead of 18%. Maybe. If the customer doesn't turn out to be a jerk. As a waiter, I would rather get 18% doing a mediocre job at two tables than 22% from one table I worked twice as hard on. The cost of working harder is very high and there's very little reward to it. You maximize your revenue by waiting on a lot of tables getting a mid-level tip for each one. About once a week you maybe, just MAYBE might get a 30% tip from someone who wants to feel like a good person. But in the 3-4 years I spent waitering I never noticed any pattern between those people and the level of service I provided. In fact, it was the people that required the least amount of service that tended to tip the most.

Tips don't motivate waiters to provide exceptional service. They motivate waiters to provide the minimum acceptable service to get an acceptable tip, and then get you heck out so they can put new customers in your seats.

That's just straight economics.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:01 pm

deanbrew wrote:
Basically, as a waiter, you're going to encounter one of two types of people.

1. People who are in a great mood, and as long as you don't screw up royally, you'll get a decent tip from them.
2. People who are not in a great mood, are probably rarely in a good mood, and are going to screw you on the tip no matter. They're going to ruin your night, humiliate you, try to get free stuff out of you, and take away your attention from the tables you actually want to help.

Your waiter has figured out which one you are within 30 seconds, just as you've subconsciously decided what you're going to tip them in that same time period.
I've never worked as a waiter, so I can't refute this on that basis, but I can certainly refute it from my own standpoint. What I leave as a tip varies based on a number of factors, and the quality of service is at the top of the list. My tip varies by a large amount based on service, as in I'll leave 10% or even less for lousy service and 20% or even more for great service.

Having said that, I do believe that a lot of people are predisposed to leave lousy tips ("I don't get paid tips at my job", "you don't have to leave a tip, it's extra") or great tips ("I used to work as a server, and know how hard it is", "20% is the expected amount for average service", "boy, she's cute and smiled at me"). And, yes, it seems that there are people who are just perpetually in a bad moods, and they probably are lousy tippers.

I'll also cop to not completely tipping based on price. I tend to more often go to places that have $8 sandwiches and $3.00 beers than places that have $16 sandwiches and $6 beers. I'll leave a larger tip, on a percentage basis, at the cheaper place. In other words, my tip doesn't double just because the menu prices do.
I think it's pretty subconscious. I think everyone THINKS they tip based on service, and to a certain extent they probably do. But the vast majority of the tip is decided by subconscious factors.

Keep in mind, you are providing a tip AFTER getting service from the waiter. Waiter are used to getting stiffed on tips. They have no way of knowing for sure if you are going to leave them a good tip until the meal is over. If you tipped them well at the beginning, then they would know to provide good service. If you tipped them poorly at the beginning, they know the level of service you expect. But when they have no idea how generous someone is feeling, why should they bother doing twice as much work on the off chance that this is going to be the 1 in 100 table that would reward them with a 30% tip instead of 20%?

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Gropes & Ray » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:09 pm

toto238 wrote:Keep in mind, you are providing a tip AFTER getting service from the waiter. Waiter are used to getting stiffed on tips. They have no way of knowing for sure if you are going to leave them a good tip until the meal is over. If you tipped them well at the beginning, then they would know to provide good service. If you tipped them poorly at the beginning, they know the level of service you expect. But when they have no idea how generous someone is feeling, why should they bother doing twice as much work on the off chance that this is going to be the 1 in 100 table that would reward them with a 30% tip instead of 20%?
I don't think "twice as much work" is ever an issue. It's not like they're going to bring me a second complimentary steak. It's just little things like bothering to smile, being attentive to drinks or little things like that. I'm not even saying I get lousy service at the majority of non-tipped service places. I'm saying 95% of waiters are cheerful and attentive, while 60% of other service performers, in my experience, are as cheerful and attentive. And the people at my local DMV couldn't possibly care less if I am happy when I leave.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:24 pm

Gropes & Ray wrote:
toto238 wrote:Keep in mind, you are providing a tip AFTER getting service from the waiter. Waiter are used to getting stiffed on tips. They have no way of knowing for sure if you are going to leave them a good tip until the meal is over. If you tipped them well at the beginning, then they would know to provide good service. If you tipped them poorly at the beginning, they know the level of service you expect. But when they have no idea how generous someone is feeling, why should they bother doing twice as much work on the off chance that this is going to be the 1 in 100 table that would reward them with a 30% tip instead of 20%?
I don't think "twice as much work" is ever an issue. It's not like they're going to bring me a second complimentary steak. It's just little things like bothering to smile, being attentive to drinks or little things like that. I'm not even saying I get lousy service at the majority of non-tipped service places. I'm saying 95% of waiters are cheerful and attentive, while 60% of other service performers, in my experience, are as cheerful and attentive. And the people at my local DMV couldn't possibly care less if I am happy when I leave.
That's unfortunate for you. I find I get much better service usually from NON-TIPPED workers. And the people at my local DMV were very kind to me and provided me with great service. I would say over 90%+ of all my interactions with service industry workers I feel I've received good to excellent service.

It's a two way interaction. It's not solely the waiter who decides whether you're going to enjoy your meal. I fail to understand how so many people have so many horror stories from the service industry, when I have so rarely had anything but pleasant experiences. I must be the luckiest man in the world.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by gkaplan » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:33 pm

I have a good friend who is deaf. When we were undergraduates, she worked as a server in a fairly upscale restaurant. She was a very competent server and made a lot of tips, even though she couldn't serve liquor because she wasn't of age.

One Monday night (Monday Night Football night), she was serving a table full of preppies. They held the table for about two hours and gave her a difficult time for most of the two hours, made fun of her behind her back, as if she didn't know what was going on. They left a quarter tip.

I have a feeling that some of the posters in this thread were those preppies.
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:37 pm

gkaplan wrote:I have a good friend who is deaf. When we were undergraduates, she worked as a server in a fairly upscale restaurant. One Monday night (Monday Night Football night), she was serving a table full of preppies. They held the table for about two hours and gave her a difficult time for most of the two hours, made fun of her behind her back, as if she didn't know what was going on. They left a quarter tip.

I have a feeling that some of the posters in this thread were those preppies.
I believe that 100%, because I have about a million horror stories just like that. People don't even realize sometimes how rude they can be when they're in a restaurant.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by fareastwarriors » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:59 pm

gkaplan wrote:I have a good friend who is deaf. When we were undergraduates, she worked as a server in a fairly upscale restaurant. She was a very competent server and made a lot of tips, even though she couldn't serve liquor because she wasn't of age.

One Monday night (Monday Night Football night), she was serving a table full of preppies. They held the table for about two hours and gave her a difficult time for most of the two hours, made fun of her behind her back, as if she didn't know what was going on. They left a quarter tip.

I have a feeling that some of the posters in this thread were those preppies.

I'm sorry those dudes were mean to your friend. That was not nice at all, not cool. I do have a problem with how those guys treated your friend but I have no problem with them leaving the 25 cents tip. Tipping is optional right?

Let say those same dudes left a Fat tip (50%+). Does that justify what they did?

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Springs1 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:09 am

cherijoh wrote:Part of the problem is that it is often difficult to separate out the service components. Food can also be slow because of the kitchen, not the wait staff. Although getting food at different times for a party of 2 is bad - how much time between the delivery of the order? I have had the kitchen screw up my order and the wait staff catch the problem therefore delaying my meal - would I have rather gotten the wrong order quicker and then had to have sent it back? In those cases the wait staff did stop by and explain the issue.
Most of the time you actually KNOW *WHO* has caused your issue in general if you think with some common sense even if nobody has informed you of anything and also if you have actually watched what was going on as to where your server headed for example after taking your order. Did they stop by 3 tables and then finally put in your food orders or did they go straight to the computer?

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Springs1 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:05 pm

TheTimeLord wrote:To be honest unless you have been a waiter you probably can't really tell if sub par service is the waiter's fault or another problem in the restaurant even a trouble customer.
You can if you have and think with common sense. For example, your server brings you the wrong side dish, even if your server put in the order right, they can still see what they are bringing you for something obvious that is wrong like that.

You can notice if they go to other tables before putting in your order that did not call them over.

If they forget anything and if they overcharged you(which me and my husband have experienced this quite a number of times during the years), those things you know are the server's fault.

No one has to be a server to know these things.
I don't know if I can think of a reason to leave 0% or even 5%, I mean if the food is bad you still pay the bill. But if your service is bad enough that you honestly start thinking I want to stiff someone making $2.13/hr then I would call the manager over instead.
How is paying them well still going to help anything? I do both. I have gotten 3 servers fired over the years. I am glad I got what they deserved. Two of them were rude, one actually stole a lot like refused to give $9 of change to one of the people in my party and purposely decided to give me the empty gift card of the 2 of them I gave her.

Leaving nothing and reporting it does better. Reporting it doesn't do anything at all if they know they still got to pay their bills, duh. I mean really, you aren't "teaching" them anything nor would there be any incentive to try harder any.

You have to do positive and negative reinforcement. So you think not punishing them will serve a purpose? If my boss told me I had people complain about me if I were a server, but they still paid me 20% anyways? Do you honestly think my ways of serving would change? No, it wouldn't. It could strive for me to try harder, but if that's as much as they are going to tip no matter what, nothing I would do could change that.

My husband and I have left over 30% tips to nothing. It all depends on the service. If they know they make $2.13/hr, they might decide to change their ways of serving if they couldn't get paid. Doing it your way, they won't change a thing.

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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Springs1 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:07 pm

toto238 wrote:If a waiter/waitress does something so horrible that it deserves speaking to a manager I'll speak to a manager. I have never had to do this before ever.
You don't go out to eat enough then.
I usually bring up the issue to the waiter/waitress and they get on fixing it immediately. I go out relatively often, yet somehow I haven't had any of these "horrible restaurant experiences" that people are always talking about.
Let me ask you some questions:

1. Do you compare your check prices to the menu prices before you decide to pay?
2. Do you make sure your billed correctly(extra items, wrong items, etc.)?
3. Do these fixes include your server apologizing at all?
4. Keep my orders simple. My rule is one modification max per entree. So ordering the Western Burger, but minus the mushrooms is fine. But ordering the Western burgen, minus the mushrooms, extra bacon, guacamole on the side, and romaine lettuce instead of iceberg... C'mon.
Why c'mon? Why go out to eat and pay a tip if you can't get what you want for your hard earned money, huh? I have many modifications when I order. My server's job is to try to get my order right for things they can control. Usually condiments forgotten will be the #1 thing forgotten.
People have this attitude coming into a restaurant a lot where they are entering a situation where they are going to be the "master" and their waiter is going to be their "slave". A lot of people rationalize it by saying "Oh but i'm a KIND master! I tip well if they are a good slave!"
This is what a serving job is. It is to be at the customer's beck and call getting WHATEVER they want for that tip they want at the end. The server is at the customer's mercy to get the tip they want. That's how it works. That's why the tip is not at the beginning nor is it on the bill for only a party of 2.
For me, when I'm going to a restaurant, I'm entering someone else's place of work.
But they expect *ME* to PAY them, therefore, I am their boss so I should get things how *I* ONLY want them, NOT the way they want them. Why am I paying a tip otherwise? What's the point of the tip if I can't get things my way?
Their sole purpose in being is not to treat me as their "master".
No one said ANYTHING about being mean to anyone. I am not treating them poorly, if anything I am NICER than they are to me in most cases with a lot of servers not saying they are sorry when they have messed up.
They are human beings trying to do their jobs as best they can.
That's BS and you know it. Most servers are too lazy to even write your order down, much less write down other request like refills, boxes, bags, etc. that we have had forgotten before. They also don't compare the written orders to the food for obvious errors *BEFORE* they leave the kitchen in most cases. Also, I don't know one server that compares the menu prices to the check prices before giving you your check, so we end up seeing the price wrong on our check when we weren't supposed to have to check all the prices since we aren't getting paid a tip to do anything but be customers as we are supposed to be.

They aren't trying their best in most cases. Most servers are lazy, selfish, and uncaring people in general.
Many of them have already been working for 10 hours straight before you got there.
NO, because I go at 11a.m. when it's just opening in most cases. So NO, that's certainly not true.
So I always tip 20% at least,
That's why service is so bad today a lot of times, because of people like you that will NOT base their tip on service. It won't improve if there's no incentive to change their behavior for the better.
Ask yourself this. If you were in their shoes, what amount of money would you want to receive in exchange for an hour of your time?
But in that hour of time, they aren't serving you in that whole hour. That is just very unknowable to say such a thing. In all honesty, you are probably only served 20 minutes or so if you added up each time they come to your table. WHERE do you get an hour from? During the time you wait for your food and don't need anything, they are serving OTHER PEOPLE.
So I simply ask myself why do I think I'm better than this other human being?
I don't, but a lot of servers think their money is more important than ours is. I had a waitress at Denny's say when I NICELY told her that the price was $9.29 not $9.49 as we were charged, she said "I DON'T DO PRICES" instead of apologizing. I had to tell her "But you can see it BEFORE me and get it fixed from your manager BEFORE you serve us the check." Do you see how she thought her money was ABOVE OURS?

Another example, a waitress overcharged us on some prices($21.99 add crawfish $4.99), charged us $28.48 which was the total on our check for that item, but was supposed to charge us $26.98. Even without a calculator, you can estimate 22 plus 5 is 7, not 8, therefore, she could have done this in 5 seconds tops to have noticed this was wrong. When the overcharged happened we mentioned it, I was pissed that she didn't catch this and she said back to me "I DON'T ADD IT UP." She PROVED that she didn't* try her best to compare the menu prices to the check prices. I know she can't change the prices in the computer, but just like when you have wrong side dish you get another member of the team to fix the correct one, you do the SAME with *ANY* mistake in the restaurant that you can't fix yourself. You get the manager yourself without the customer's help. It's not my job as a customer to check if I am charged correctly on prices, that's my server's job to charge me correctly 100%. My point of this story is that she thought our money didn't matter to **ADMIT** she didn't ***CARE*** if she was overcharging us or not.

In both situations, their money was above ours instead of being *EQUALLY* important.

So when you say better, all the servers act like their money is more important than the customer's money not to compare the menu prices to the check prices. It's not our job to do this. It's their job to *CHARGE* us correctly no matter how much *EFFORT* they have to put into the job that.

They sure don't care about us. The Denny's story I stiffed her she only had 2 prices to check since the soft drink prices weren't listed on the menu, but the other 2nd story with the crawfish $21.99 and $4.99 story we left $4 on $85 and something cent check. I should have stiffed the waitress. She was a [(removed) --admin LadyGeek]. So in both situations, NEITHER server *****CARED******* about our money.

How can you act like we have to bow down to them like they are more important when they aren't even treating us like human beings? They should have both admitted fault and both have tried to catch these.

Most servers are lazy, uncaring, and selfish jerks.
Why should they be paid any less than I would be expected to be paid doing the same job?
I would only expect a good tip if I tried my best and I was nice. I wouldn't expect a tip at all if I would have been the server in these situations. My customer's money should be just as important as my income if I were a server. I wouldn't have been so lazy and done my job by finding these issues well before the customers had their food even. The manager would have fixed the situations well before check time.
Another thing people also need to bear in mind is that a lot of a waiter/waitress's time is spent when customers aren't there. They're cleaning, sweeping, restocking, refilling, etc. constantly, and they're getting paid $2.13 for it. Your tip isn't just covering the time they spent with you. It's also covering the significant amount of time they spent with no tables still working.
NO, you are 100% wrong. WRONG, WRONG!! NO ONE is paying for things that aren't in service. My tip is not paying for my server to restock, sweep, mop, etc. I worked at a donut shop/diner back in 1998-2002 off and on a little over 2yrs worth. We served not just donuts, but burgers, sandwiches, etc. We had 2 booths, the counter, some 2 seater tables and a drive-thru. I made min. wage plus tips at first and then went up in only a month and a half 35 cents raise from $5.15/hr which was min. wage back then to $5.50 an hour plus tips. I ended up getting to $6/hr eventually when I left there plus tips. I NEVER, EVER, EVER EXPECTED nor thought I would deserve a tip for any side work. That's not tippable. Nobody tipped me for that, since that wasn't service. Especially drive-thru. I had to restock the drive-thru area and refill the ice bin as well as restock cups for soft drinks and coffee, sweeteners, sugars, etc. NOBODY tipped me for these things. The tip is NOT covering ANY of that. I don't tip my server for doing these things. I tip them for THEM getting me things like my order, refills, the check, bags, boxes, etc. THAT is what the tip is for. It is NOT to do side work. HOW is them making a fresh batch of iced tea and cutting lemons befitting me if I only order a coke? Even if they do it while I am there, that part since I am not ordering any of those items, I am not benefiting from to tip based on. These are non-service issues.

I didn't get tipped based on these issues nor do I tip based on them. They'd refill the ice bin whether or not I got a coke or not for example even. They aren't just refilling the ice bin JUST FOR ME. A tip is for JUST FOR ME is what a tip is based on. The things they are doing JUST FOR ME, PERSONALLY, NOT for the restaurant's upkeep or for other customers. No customers tip based on side work.
Treat human beings like human beings. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to go out to eat.
I agree 100% with BOTH of these statements, but it also goes both ways as far as treat human beings like human beings as far as our money counts too and we also want apologies as well when things get messed up as customers.

jridger2011
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jridger2011 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Now I've got to ask this, is it just a NY thing that there is a rule for 18% tip mandatory for parties greater than 6? I am not against it but was wondering if other states have this going on.

Springs1
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Springs1 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:05 pm

jridger2011 wrote:Now I've got to ask this, is it just a NY thing that there is a rule for 18% tip mandatory for parties greater than 6? I am not against it but was wondering if other states have this going on.
Here(Louisiana) we have even as little as 5 people automatic gratuity. It depends on the restaurant. Some restaurants don't have any automatic gratuity, while others set theirs to 8 or 6 or as I said even as low as 5 people.

I am not in favor of it since it leads to doing the minimum for you. I was in a large party(10 or more can't remember how many people we were), our waitress said to me "You might have to remind me" as I was giving her the order and she was writing down some of it. It leads to LAZINESS. There shouldn't be a server putting it on the customer to remind them, because it's the server's job to remind themselves with their written order as to why they write it down in the first place. She knew she was getting 20% no matter what, so she didn't care. So I am very glad I am not in a large group like that very often. There's no incentive this way.

jridger2011
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jridger2011 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:19 pm

Springs1 wrote:
jridger2011 wrote:Now I've got to ask this, is it just a NY thing that there is a rule for 18% tip mandatory for parties greater than 6? I am not against it but was wondering if other states have this going on.
Here(Louisiana) we have even as little as 5 people automatic gratuity. It depends on the restaurant. Some restaurants don't have any automatic gratuity, while others set theirs to 8 or 6 or as I said even as low as 5 people.

I am not in favor of it since it leads to doing the minimum for you. I was in a large party(10 or more can't remember how many people we were), our waitress said to me "You might have to remind me" as I was giving her the order and she was writing down some of it. It leads to LAZINESS. There shouldn't be a server putting it on the customer to remind them, because it's the server's job to remind themselves with their written order as to why they write it down in the first place. She knew she was getting 20% no matter what, so she didn't care. So I am very glad I am not in a large group like that very often. There's no incentive this way.
I can agree it is not a perfect system for various reasons depending on location. I live in a heavy tourist city so a lot of restaurants stay in business with bad food and bad service if they're in the right location. Tourists keep coming and they don't need return visits since there's always new people coming. For residents, we have to go out of our way to find a good restaurant that's worth going out to eat in.

tj
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by tj » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:32 pm

jridger2011 wrote:Now I've got to ask this, is it just a NY thing that there is a rule for 18% tip mandatory for parties greater than 6? I am not against it but was wondering if other states have this going on.

I think it varies based on restuarant and server. In Califronia, this is common, but sometimes the server well guess that you're a good tipper and not require it...sometimes they guess wrong. :-/

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Lon
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Lon » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:22 pm

I grew up living with my mother from age 11 to 18. She worked as a waitress and cashier. I remember her coming home and counting her tips on the kitchen table. My tipping today is fairly generous because of this personal experience.

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deanbrew
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by deanbrew » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:12 pm

I HATE the automatic gratuity for "large" parties. More often than not, it results in bad service for a too-large tip, as they try to spread one or two servers too thin. I have, on occasion, requested that it be removed, but not as often as I should.
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