Guns for hunting/defense

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alter
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by alter » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:49 pm

Well I'd like to start out by saying, I've read a lot of forum posts from this site, which seems to contain many personal finance enthusiasts to say the least, which I'm interested in but this post is actually what caught my attention and provoked me join....So thanks!

My firearms are as follows:
DPMS AR15
Beretta 92FS
SKS (carbon fiber stock)
Ruger 10/22 (also in a synthetic stock with rails)

My next purchase will be a compact 9mm. I'm searching for a very compact one with a small rail like the Keltec pf9 or M&P Shield.

carolinaman
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by carolinaman » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:19 am

I have a S&W 38 snub note revolver and Ruger 32 semi automatic. I keep 38 at home for defense and have concealed carry and can easily conceal the 32 when I am going somewhere I feel it might be necessary (usually travel situations).

I also have a Remington 22 semi automatic rifle

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:33 pm

As a result of someone linking to a website article on handgun stopping power, the discussion took a left turn to gun ownership in Australia, crime in the UK; along with a brief mention of school shooting situations. I removed the entire sequence of posts.

Please stay on-topic, which is about firearms.
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zaplunken
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by zaplunken » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:46 pm

drawpoker wrote:zaplunken , there is so much wisdom, so much good advice in what you wrote, you deserve some sort of Boglehead accolade - the Academy award for absolute best supreme guns for self defense screenwriting...! :sharebeer

(Would dearly love to steal another's poster;s tag line

"When seconds count, the police take minutes"

But I guess that would be plagiarizing original material.... :oops:
Thanks drawpoker, I spend a lot of time on gun forums and do a lot of reading but I am far from an expert!

I see you are the person that has Keinbock and racking the slide is difficult. I have a suggestion - perhaps a Springfield Amory XDm in 9mm would be a good choice IF your state allows the purchase of a gun with a mag that can hold more than 10 rounds (forget CA, CT, MD, NY, MA and perhaps NJ, RI, DC IL). Here's why - it has a 19 round mag and with 1 in the pipe that's 20 shots. If you can have someone rack the slide for you and leave it as it should be kept loaded with one in the pipe then all you need to do is shoot. 20 rounds may not be enough but 1 shot may be all that is needed, as I said all situations are unique. Also having another 19 round mag would allow you to drop the empty mag, insert the fully loaded mag and "drop the slide release" as this will chamber the 1st round in the newly loaded mag and does not require you to rack the slide using your strength. It has a 4.5" barrel so the bullet stays in there and develops more power than say my subcompct with a 3" barrel, 4.5" is almost the longest semi auto barrel length made. I'll include a link to it at Bud's Gun Shop in KY.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/56442

Guns can be cleaned by you, it is easy there's no need to have a gun shop clean and check the gun in fact many people have several thousands of rounds through various SA XD pistols and have not cleaned them one time, SA has a wonderful reputation for quality, dependability and customer service. IMO revolvers are a simpler gun than a semi auto (I don't know why you think they are more complex and require all kinds of tools to clean) and more reliable for that reason but limited ammo capacity. Cleaning is simply field stripping, some people do totally disassemble their semi autos but that is not required. Everything you need to clean a handgun would fit in a box that's a 6 or 7" cube even less really, that's where my stuff is.

I believe Smith & Wesson has a 357 magnum/38 Special revolver that holds 7 rounds, it is a large and heavy gun but does hold 1 more than 6. Ruger makes a GP100 in the same calibers and that holds 6 which is common. A Youtube video shouldn't take more than 3-4 minutes to show you how to clean a handgun revolver or semi auto, a 20 minute video must have a lot of fluff in it!

ThereAreNoGuru's advice on a DA/SA is a good idea too! 1911's are that type, have a manual safety you must remember to disengage. The 1st shot is DA and the trigger is heavy to pull but after that it's going to be VERY light in SA! People LOVE 1911's, it almost borders on fanatical the love 1911's get. I don't own one, I've considered a SA Range Officer in 45 ACP, but that love and respect is no doubts well deserved.

You must practice, don't just buy it and forget it. Being familiar with handing it is important. You don't have to shoot every month but at least a few times a year would be good.

And VERY importantly here are the 4 rules of gun safety:
EVERY GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED!
NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WISH TO DESTROY.
ALWAYS KNOW YOUR TARGET.
ALWAYS KNOW WHAT IS BEYOND YOUR TARGET.

I applaud the mods for letting this thread run, I have seen these shut down fast in the past.

drawpoker you can PM me if you want as I don't want to monopolize the thread, I hope I have helped you. Oh and BTW, a 38 Special (there are several 38 calibers so I always state Special as that is the correct name of what I am talking about) is very adequate for SD don't believe you must use a 45. Heck a poorly placed shot with a 45 can do nothing and a well placed 22 can stop the BG instantly. As I stated in my other post shot placement is everything.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Atilla » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:29 pm

No handgun ammunition will have the stopping power of a decent rifle caliber or 12 or 20 ga. shotgun.

20 gauge for a shotgun is plenty sufficient and less dramatic than 12 ga. for home defense. Easier to handle the blast/recoil.

Realistically the best gun for self defense in the home would be an AR15 with a short 16" barrel and collapsible stock. .223 ammo has low recoil and excellent stopping ability while not overly threatening innocent bystanders who might be in another room. 30 round magazines are standard. Throw a laser on that gun and ideally a suppressor and you really can't do better.

Noise and muzzle blast in your house at night in a stressful situation are not to be ignored. I would not want to fire a short barrel .357 in my hallway at night. I'm toying with the idea of putting a threaded barrel on the Glock 22 and going through the hassle of getting the tax stamp for a suppressor for it. It would make a pretty ideal nighttime home defense hand gun.

I'm a fan of .38 special. Buffalo bore makes a wide variety of .38 special ammo. They make a 158 grain +p round that is just brutal as well as a +p copper hollow point in 110 grain specially made for short barrel revolvers. All using a powder formulated for low flash in dark environments. All of my carry/self defense guns except the Glock have Buffalo Bore ammo in them. The Glock apparently isn't designed to handle it, so I go with law enforcement Gold Dot hollow points.
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larsm
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by larsm » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:34 pm

S&W 686 Plus, four inch barrel. Plus meaning 7 rounds in the wheel. Need more than that and like the man said on BREAKING BAD, then in you are into spray and pray.

nm451
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by nm451 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:18 pm

white_water wrote:A rifle or shotgun isn't a good choice inside a house IMO as distances are typically very close. Unless you live in a very large house you'll probably be confronting the BG at 5-15'. Pointing a rifle or shotgun or coming around a corner is putting that long barrel far in front of you and you may well find the end of it grabbed and now wrestling to get control of it. Not good! A short barrel rifle is better and if you're opting for a long gun I'd chose an AR15 if legal in your state. High capacity magazines (30 rounds should be way more than enough), light weight, light recoil, potent power make it a good choice but over penetration inside a house can be problematic with almost any firearm.
This was the best advice that I got when taking my first Self Defense course. Walk through your house with your unloaded weapon to see if you encounter any issues and also look for blind spots. I live in a relatively cramped home and with my AR/Shotgun I kept hitting things. So I decided on a handgun as the go to home defense weapon. I decided on a revolver by shooting about 600 of the dirtiest bullets I could find through my 357 S&W and Glock 17 without cleaning either over the course of about 3 months. I never had a failure in my Smith and about 2-3 with my Glock, so I went with the revolver with 38 Special +P loads (I am able to get off more rounds accurately than with 357 Mag loads).
A couple other things that were helpful to me. Practice shooting one handed, that way you can use the other hand to hold your flashlight if necessary. Practice shooting and reloading from different positions you never know what situation you may find yourself in.

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LadyGeek
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:36 pm

zaplunken wrote:And VERY importantly here are the 4 rules of gun safety:
EVERY GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED!
NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WISH TO DESTROY.
ALWAYS KNOW YOUR TARGET.
ALWAYS KNOW WHAT IS BEYOND YOUR TARGET.
Several years ago, automatically following the above rules drilled into my head since I was teenager saved me from a bad scene.

A girlfriend of mine wanted to show me her HEK (Heckler & Koch) 9 mm and brought it to my house. She took it out of the holster, pulled back the slide, then squeezed the handle to drop the clip magazine so that the gun was safe to handle.

Question: What's wrong with this scenario?

Continuing, I held the gun in my hand and thought "the gun is always loaded..." and aimed it high above the furniture to an outside wall that had nothing in direct line of sight. I pulled the trigger. It fired.

Answer: The sequence to clear a gun is (1): drop the clip magazine, then... (2): clear the chamber by pulling back on the slide. She swapped the order. It mattered. It was one of those brain farts that you wonder how it could have happened. Other than that, she was always super safety conscious. Except for the 5 seconds here.

I have not patched the drywall where the bullet passed as a life-long reminder about the 4 rules of gun safety.

Update: Corrected terminology from "clip" to "magazine", see below.
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Gropes & Ray
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Gropes & Ray » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:44 pm

Good story LadyGeek. We all need to be reminded from time to time that the safety rules are important. And, it reminds us that it's always a good idea to check if a gun is loaded when it's handed to you. I will look in the chamber or open the cylinder every time someone hands me a gun, even if I just watched them unload it.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:00 pm

Thanks. The other part of that story is that I'm very protective of my hearing - my ears were ringing for quite a while. I gladly took the trade-off of my ears ringing vs. the alternative. To be clear, no person was in danger - just property.

I'd also like to mention that I've heard people refer to 9 mm as a "girl gun" and would agree on that point. Larger calibers are too difficult for me to handle accurately (repeat shots, good aim). Smaller caliber seems a bit light.

This is not a "macho" sport, meaning the larger the better. You can be effective in any caliber.
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whomever
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by whomever » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:28 pm

I have an instructor friend who does the class room segment, then when the class goes to the range he does exactly that - show chamber empty, drop slide, then remove mag. Than he suggests to the class 'So, the gun is unloaded, right?'. It's rare for anyone to call him on it. Then he points it down range and fires. Hopefully, it drives the point home.

"I believe Smith & Wesson has a 357 magnum/38 Special revolver that holds 7 rounds, it is a large and heavy gun but does hold 1 more than 6"

The 7 shot one is, e.g., a 686 plus. It's actually a couple of ounces lighter than the 6 shot one (because the cylinder has one more hole). The 686 (6 shot) and 686 plus (7 shot) are the same size externally - what's called an 'L frame'.

S&W also makes larger 'N frame' 357s that hold 8 rounds. Those are bigger and heaver (if made from the same material; they make alloy ones that are similar in weight to the 686).

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TxAg
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by TxAg » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:32 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
zaplunken wrote:And VERY importantly here are the 4 rules of gun safety:
EVERY GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED!
NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WISH TO DESTROY.
ALWAYS KNOW YOUR TARGET.
ALWAYS KNOW WHAT IS BEYOND YOUR TARGET.
Several years ago, automatically following the above rules drilled into my head since I was teenager saved me from a bad scene.

A girlfriend of mine wanted to show me her HEK (Heckler & Koch) 9 mm and brought it to my house. She took it out of the holster, pulled back the slide, then squeezed the handle to drop the clip so that the gun was safe to handle.

Question: What's wrong with this scenario?

Continuing, I held the gun in my hand and thought "the gun is always loaded..." and aimed it high above the furniture to an outside wall that had nothing in direct line of sight. I pulled the trigger. It fired.

Answer: The sequence to clear a gun is (1): drop the clip, then... (2): clear the chamber by pulling back on the slide. She swapped the order. It mattered. It was one of those brain farts that you wonder how it could have happened. Other than that, she was always super safety conscious. Except for the 5 seconds here.

I have not patched the drywall where the bullet passed as a life-long reminder about the 4 rules of gun safety.
Thanks for sharing. A lot of people wouldn't have admitted that. It is a learning lesson for sure.

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Matigas
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Matigas » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:35 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
zaplunken wrote:And VERY importantly here are the 4 rules of gun safety:
EVERY GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED!
NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WISH TO DESTROY.
ALWAYS KNOW YOUR TARGET.
ALWAYS KNOW WHAT IS BEYOND YOUR TARGET.
Several years ago, automatically following the above rules drilled into my head since I was teenager saved me from a bad scene.

A girlfriend of mine wanted to show me her HEK (Heckler & Koch) 9 mm and brought it to my house. She took it out of the holster, pulled back the slide, then squeezed the handle to drop the clip so that the gun was safe to handle.

Question: What's wrong with this scenario?

Continuing, I held the gun in my hand and thought "the gun is always loaded..." and aimed it high above the furniture to an outside wall that had nothing in direct line of sight. I pulled the trigger. It fired.

Answer: The sequence to clear a gun is (1): drop the clip, then... (2): clear the chamber by pulling back on the slide. She swapped the order. It mattered. It was one of those brain farts that you wonder how it could have happened. Other than that, she was always super safety conscious. Except for the 5 seconds here.

I have not patched the drywall where the bullet passed as a life-long reminder about the 4 rules of gun safety.
Magazine, NOT clip!!!!

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:03 pm

Matigas wrote:...Magazine, NOT clip!!!!
You are absolutely correct, I updated my post.

For reference: 9 Most Misused Gun Terms
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Summit111
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Summit111 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:30 pm

All,

When taking an advanced defensive pistol course, the instructor said something I'll never forget.

"There is no such thing as an accidental shooting...someone doesn't follow correct firearm handling protocol. That's what really happens."

So, next time you read about an accidental shooting in the newspaper, think about what went wrong in that scenario and what could have prevented the "Accidental" shooting...

Summit

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TxAg
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by TxAg » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:37 pm

Atilla wrote:No handgun ammunition will have the stopping power of a decent rifle caliber or 12 or 20 ga. shotgun.

20 gauge for a shotgun is plenty sufficient and less dramatic than 12 ga. for home defense. Easier to handle the blast/recoil.

Realistically the best gun for self defense in the home would be an AR15 with a short 16" barrel and collapsible stock. .223 ammo has low recoil and excellent stopping ability while not overly threatening innocent bystanders who might be in another room. 30 round magazines are standard. Throw a laser on that gun and ideally a suppressor and you really can't do better.

Noise and muzzle blast in your house at night in a stressful situation are not to be ignored. I would not want to fire a short barrel .357 in my hallway at night. I'm toying with the idea of putting a threaded barrel on the Glock 22 and going through the hassle of getting the tax stamp for a suppressor for it. It would make a pretty ideal nighttime home defense hand gun.

I'm a fan of .38 special. Buffalo bore makes a wide variety of .38 special ammo. They make a 158 grain +p round that is just brutal as well as a +p copper hollow point in 110 grain specially made for short barrel revolvers. All using a powder formulated for low flash in dark environments. All of my carry/self defense guns except the Glock have Buffalo Bore ammo in them. The Glock apparently isn't designed to handle it, so I go with law enforcement Gold Dot hollow points.

If using a 20 gauge, a person needs to be more cognizant of shot distance and bullet choice. I certainly wouldn't want to be shot with one, but I've heard/read some stories of people surviving 20 gauge shots without much of a problem. Please don't take that to mean that I'm advocating killing people, but "stopping the threat" means more than just "deterring" the threat. I'm not taking any chances inside my home with my family.

That said, I would like a new 12 gauge. I don't have one.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by bottlecap » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:39 pm

Honestly, the best thing for home defense is a pistol in or near the nightstand. A .38, 9mm. .40 or .45 will do. What ever you're comfortable with.

The problem with a rifle or a shotgun is that you are really not going to be keeping it near where you sleep, especially if you have a wife or kids, so they're not practical. Securing them during the day and removing them to place by your bedside a night is just not something you are going to do every day. I have a short pump action shot gun and an M4gery. In the ideal situation, I'd prefer either to a pistol. In reality, I put the pistol in the nightstand. Much less of a hassle to secure every morning.

I think it would be hard to go wrong with the Springfield XD mentioned above. It is an easy to use gun and very accurate. I don't own one, largely because I think they're ugly, but I went to the range with a friend who had one a few years back and I have to say I was impressed by it's performance, particularly the accuracy. Another series worth taking a look at is the M&P by Smith & Wesson. It is accurate and isn't quite as ugly. Again, I don't own one, but used tried out a friend's at the range.

Of course, it goes without saying that safety is paramount. Aside from proper storage, the two most important things are to treat it as if it is always loaded and to never point it (or put anything in front of the muzzle) that you wouldn't want to see dead or destroyed.

Good luck,

JT

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Atilla » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:58 pm

If a rifle was our home defense weapon it would definitely be loaded and ready to go by the bedside.

An unloaded or not immediately accessible gun is useless for defense. Gimme 5 seconds no matter where I am in the house and I'll have a gun in my hand ready to go. Sounds crazy to some, but hey - our neighborhood is what it is.
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by zaplunken » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:47 pm

Summit111 wrote:All,

When taking an advanced defensive pistol course, the instructor said something I'll never forget.

"There is no such thing as an accidental shooting...someone doesn't follow correct firearm handling protocol. That's what really happens."

So, next time you read about an accidental shooting in the newspaper, think about what went wrong in that scenario and what could have prevented the "Accidental" shooting...

Summit
Very true. Accidental discharge? Nope, sorry, on gun forums we call them negligent discharges because that's what they are.

I'll add another safety tip when carrying my handguns (ie not holstered) in the house or outside I never think about other things. I always am "talking to myself" in my head about things but when handling firearms I always clear my thoughts and pay strict attention to all my movements and where I am pointing the muzzle. Once I put it down or holster it then I resume my mental gymnastics. It's too easy to get day dreaming about something and forget you have a deadly weapon in your hand. It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway (!), never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

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Summit111
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Summit111 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:12 pm

All,

One other thing, in my defensive shooting course, the instructor also emphasized having a shooting plan for your house in case of an intruder. Pre plan a "shoot don't shoot direction" for your home.

Example, if you're in the house, what is a safe direction to shoot where you won't fire into an occupied bedroom and hit a family member. The instructor said to walk thru and plan some defensive scenarios.

Summit

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by mak1277 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:47 pm

bottlecap wrote:Honestly, the best thing for home defense is a pistol in or near the nightstand. A .38, 9mm. .40 or .45 will do. What ever you're comfortable with.

The problem with a rifle or a shotgun is that you are really not going to be keeping it near where you sleep, especially if you have a wife or kids, so they're not practical.
I'm the last person to be accused of being a feminist, but even I think this bit is sexist. I wouldn't have any loaded gun in my bedroom if I wasn't sure my wife could handle it. I do agree on the kids part though.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Crow Hunter » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:16 am

zaplunken wrote:
<snip>If you can have someone rack the slide for you and leave it as it should be kept loaded with one in the pipe then all you need to do is shoot. 20 rounds may not be enough but 1 shot may be all that is needed, as I said all situations are unique. Also having another 19 round mag would allow you to drop the empty mag, insert the fully loaded mag and "drop the slide release" as this will chamber the 1st round in the newly loaded mag and does not require you to rack the slide using your strength. <snip>



<snip>ThereAreNoGuru's advice on a DA/SA is a good idea too! 1911's are that type, have a manual safety you must remember to disengage. The 1st shot is DA and the trigger is heavy to pull but after that it's going to be VERY light in SA! People LOVE 1911's, it almost borders on fanatical the love 1911's get. I don't own one, I've considered a SA Range Officer in 45 ACP, but that love and respect is no doubts well deserved. <snip>

Just a couple of minor disagreements that I have with what you posted. :D

On your first point. I wouldn't advise depending on someone else to rack the slide. You have to be capable of performing remedial action in case of malfunction. Most remedial action drills on a semiautomatic involve operating the slide. Your first round could be a dud and you won't know for sure until you actually pull the trigger. If you get a *click* when you are expecting a *BANG*, you need to quickly and instinctively do a Tap/Rack. If you can't easily perform the rack portion, you are putting yourself at a serious disadvantage from the get go.

Second point. The 1911 isn't a DA/SA. :wink: It is a SA all the time and must be kept in Condition 1, round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on to be ready to go without needing to rack the slide.(Cocked and Locked) Although there is a way to have a hammer down on a loaded chamber it requires manually thumbing the hammer back at it is very unsafe to let the hammer down manually and on some 1911 designs the weapon can fire (Series 70) if the hammer is struck. While I like the 1911, I don't personally recommend it for someone that isn't an enthusiast. They require quite a bit of maintenance, even when you get an expensive reputable maker, compared to your average Glock/S&W M&P/Sig Sauer/etc.

I agree completely with the rest of your post though. Especially the 4 rules. :sharebeer

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by WHL » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:44 pm

All of my firearms were lost in a tragic boating accident last year. Before they sank to the bottom of Lake Erie, however, I had the following:

Glock 19 (9mm compact) for HD / carry
Remington 870 - 18" barrel for HD, 28" barrel for clays / bird hunting
Savage 93 .17hmr bolt gun for varmint / plinking
Ruger 10/22 for plinking
Ruger buckmark .22lr pistol for plinking

I also had a really nice silencerco sparrow multi caliber can...that was a lot of fun! I always wanted a really nice over/under 12 gauge for hunting and clays but I am not a good enough shot to justify a $2000 shotgun. The 870 worked fine.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by zaplunken » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:42 pm

Crow Hunter wrote:
zaplunken wrote:
<snip>If you can have someone rack the slide for you and leave it as it should be kept loaded with one in the pipe then all you need to do is shoot. 20 rounds may not be enough but 1 shot may be all that is needed, as I said all situations are unique. Also having another 19 round mag would allow you to drop the empty mag, insert the fully loaded mag and "drop the slide release" as this will chamber the 1st round in the newly loaded mag and does not require you to rack the slide using your strength. <snip>



<snip>ThereAreNoGuru's advice on a DA/SA is a good idea too! 1911's are that type, have a manual safety you must remember to disengage. The 1st shot is DA and the trigger is heavy to pull but after that it's going to be VERY light in SA! People LOVE 1911's, it almost borders on fanatical the love 1911's get. I don't own one, I've considered a SA Range Officer in 45 ACP, but that love and respect is no doubts well deserved. <snip>

Just a couple of minor disagreements that I have with what you posted. :D

On your first point. I wouldn't advise depending on someone else to rack the slide. You have to be capable of performing remedial action in case of malfunction. Most remedial action drills on a semiautomatic involve operating the slide. Your first round could be a dud and you won't know for sure until you actually pull the trigger. If you get a *click* when you are expecting a *BANG*, you need to quickly and instinctively do a Tap/Rack. If you can't easily perform the rack portion, you are putting yourself at a serious disadvantage from the get go.

Second point. The 1911 isn't a DA/SA. :wink: It is a SA all the time and must be kept in Condition 1, round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on to be ready to go without needing to rack the slide.(Cocked and Locked) Although there is a way to have a hammer down on a loaded chamber it requires manually thumbing the hammer back at it is very unsafe to let the hammer down manually and on some 1911 designs the weapon can fire (Series 70) if the hammer is struck. While I like the 1911, I don't personally recommend it for someone that isn't an enthusiast. They require quite a bit of maintenance, even when you get an expensive reputable maker, compared to your average Glock/S&W M&P/Sig Sauer/etc.

I agree completely with the rest of your post though. Especially the 4 rules. :sharebeer
Crow Hunter thanks for the clarification and correction. You are correct 1911's are SA only. Your other point is valid, FTF would require racking the slide, something drawpoker says he can't do. I know on my XD9sc if I had the FTF you describe I can pull the slide back just a short distance, maybe 1/4 to 3/8" to recock it but I don't know if all semi autos function like that though I assume they do. But the safest thing to do would be to rack the slide and rechamber a new round in an emergency, at the range you could experiment.

Thanks for pointing these things out, a semi auto probably is not a good choice for drawpoker based upon his disability. The choice of a 5, 6 or 7 shot revolver vs say a short barreled AR15 (30 round mags) probably is his alternatives. There are pros and cons to both.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Crow Hunter » Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:24 pm

All striker fired guns will work with the action you describe. (Most semiautomatic handguns without a visible hammer fall into this category) The distance for the striker tail to snap over the sear may be a little different but it will work. With DA/SA guns (and some striker guns), you can just pull the trigger again, however, most good trainers will tell you that you are better off getting the offending round out of the gun and a fresh round in the chamber by racking the slide via the Tap/Rack/Bang drill. (Some put in an Assess between the Rack and the Bang)

For those not familiar with the jargon:
-Tap the magazine base firmly the heel of your off hand confirm it is seated and locked into the weapon
-Rack the slide to chamber a new round
-Then you should hopefully get a "Bang"

That is one of the advantages of a revolver. Just going through the act of pulling the trigger automatically places a fresh round (and chamber) in line with the hammer and forcing cone/barrel.

I think revolvers are exceptionally well suited for home defense situations. Particularly for persons who may have some disability preventing them from or do not get to practice weapon manipulations. They are both easier to maintain and safer for many people.

:sharebeer

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by nwrolla » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:03 pm

This thread has a lot of good information. Great to see so many contributors and different ideas. I will throw my $.02 into the mix.

Daily carry : Kimber solo carry 6+1 hollow point. Extended mag on backorder.

Night stand pistol : Springfield XD 45 13+1 hollow point.

Other guns : Spikes tactical AR15 style rifle with plenty of accessories.
Modern AK clone from M&M probably my favorite gun to shoot, it is a tank In terms of reliability.

Wishlist for next rifle: SBR 300 blackout with suppressor. Perfect for all close quarters situations. 9 inch barrel + suppressor won't ruin your hearing indoors. Most SD situations people do not have ear protection on hand or already in their ears.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by toddanderson » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:22 am

I am looking at one of these also for home defense, does anyone else have an opinion ?
2nd can you use any other type of shot like buckshot, rock salt, etc
mak1277 wrote:We have a Taurus Circuit Judge for home defense. 18.5" barrel, 5 shot revolver that can fire .410 shot shells and/or .45 long colt ammo. Very light recoil (my wife can shoot from the hip with accuracy when using the .410 shells). I quite like it.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Atilla » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:24 am

My dad has a Taurus Judge as his night stand gun. I've shot it and the recoil is quite mild. The spread when you shoot .410 is large so it's only good at very close range - across the room. Personally I'm not a super huge fan of the gun but I see it's appeal.

Here's a good review and demonstration:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by mak1277 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:31 am

Atilla wrote:My dad has a Taurus Judge as his night stand gun. I've shot it and the recoil is quite mild. The spread when you shoot .410 is large so it's only good at very close range - across the room. Personally I'm not a super huge fan of the gun but I see it's appeal.

Here's a good review and demonstration:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0

I'm assuming the spread for the Judge (handgun) is greater than it is for the Circuit Judge (rifle). The first time I shot the Circuit Judge my target was a coffee can at 25 yards and it was basically impossible to miss.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by BTDT » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 am

bottlecap wrote:
I think it would be hard to go wrong with the Springfield XD mentioned above. It is an easy to use gun and very accurate. I don't own one, largely because I think they're ugly,

JT
When it comes to self defense, I think the uglier the better. Looking down the barrel of a large blunderbuss filled with shot would certainly get my attention :beer
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Crow Hunter » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:44 am

toddanderson wrote:I am looking at one of these also for home defense, does anyone else have an opinion ?
2nd can you use any other type of shot like buckshot, rock salt, etc
mak1277 wrote:We have a Taurus Circuit Judge for home defense. 18.5" barrel, 5 shot revolver that can fire .410 shot shells and/or .45 long colt ammo. Very light recoil (my wife can shoot from the hip with accuracy when using the .410 shells). I quite like it.
My opinion is not very high.

If you are wanting a .410 for defense, IMHO a Mossberg 500 HS410 http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotgun ... s410/50359 would be a much more effective means of defense.

The problem with the Circuit Judge is four-fold.

1. It is made by Taurus/Rossi (Taurus owns Rossi), which has never been known for high quality anything. Their products, with the exception of the PT92 series (Beretta design), are generally poorly designed, using lower quality materials and assembled poorly. Anecdotally you can find a gem occasionally, (I had a PT92 that was great) but for the most part they are not top shelf items.

2. A revolver has a cylinder gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone. A jet of high pressure propellant gases escapes every time you pull the trigger. This ejecta will eventually even cut through the top strap of a revolver given enough time and especially if the gap is on the large side of a tolerance. If you are shooting with correct form on a shotgun, your offside forearm is in very close proximity to this cylinder gap. While Taurus/Rossi has added "shields", see point #1. :wink:

3. A revolving cylinder shotgun is inferior to a standard magazine fed shotgun unless the cylinder is large enough to accommodate significantly more rounds that a standard magazine or has a way to load/unload the cylinder quickly. With a standard magazine shotgun you can "top off" the magazine with single rounds as needed. With a revolving cylinder shotgun, you must open the cylinder, eject the empties, and reload the cylinder, close it and then be back in the fight. The Circuit Judge only holds 5 rounds. The Mossberg I linked to earlier holds 5 rounds in the magazine +1 in the chamber for a total of 6 rounds and a much easier to load magazine, especially if you put a small 5 round "butt cuff" on the stock to allow you to single load as a round is used in the magazine and your weapon is never "out of the fight" for reloading.

4. A revolving cylinder gun utilizes the trigger pull to both turn the cylinder to and cock/release the hammer. With a heavy cylinder gun like the Circuit Judge, a significant amount of force will be needed to pull the trigger to overcome the inertia of the cylinder at rest. This can be overcome by cocking the gun utilizing the hammer but this means that your trigger will now be extremely light short travel trigger sometimes referred to colloquially as a "Hair Trigger". Not something that I would want to do in a potentially stressful situation. Many police departments back in the "Revolver Age" removed the single action notch from their service revolvers to prevent this and the subsequent lawsuits from being filed against the departments related to "accidental" shootings.

Finally, being Bogleheads :wink: :

Mossberg $365

Circuit Judge $520

Source: Buds Gun Shop

TL:DR

Mossberg 500 HS410 is higher round count, higher quality and lower cost weapon for identical capability. Other than the ability to fire .45 LC, which a .410 slug equal to or superior anyway.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by hudson » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:09 am

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stev
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by stev » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:48 am

I am the OP.
Thank you all your help.
There is a lot for me to digest, and I am going to take the time and learn.
Really great input for someone new to guns like me.

Sorry I posted this in the wrong place.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by reisner » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:08 am

Let me speak up for the old-fashioned side-by-side shotgun as opposed to an over-and-under or anything else. Break-action shotguns are inherently safer, and IMHO the SXS has it over (no pun intended) the OU. It usually weighs half a pound less and carries better in the hand providing it's a box lock, not a side lock. My CZ Bobwhite 20 gauge with 26" barrels and screw-in chokes weighs a little over six pounds and handles fast in the home or the field. No. 2 or no.4 buck for the home.

Hunting rifle: a Mauser 98 in 7X57, made in Berlin in 1908 and sporterized sometime after. It can take the largest game on earth with the right bullet, weighs a little over six pounds, and kicks barely more than a .243.

I pretty much lost interest in handguns when I started hunting. I do have a Ruger LCR in .38. I wouldn't turn down a Colt 1911 or an old Beretta 70 or 71.

And I would suggest an alternative to a .22, namely an RWS34 air rifle in .22.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Carter3 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:12 am

drawpoker wrote:Good grief, agree !

Let's forget the politics and get back on track.

What about me? Wrist/hand impairment makes 9mm semi-auto pistol (the Glock I craved) impossible.

But the 5-shot revolver worries me if I get in a situation where I have to fire all 5 and re-load.

For someone like me who lacks manual dexterity to work the slide on 9mm semi, what would be the next best choice to replace revolver????????
Next best choice = A 9mm semi ie Glock. Loading, shooting, unloading can all be done one handed and should be practiced that way by all in case you are ever in a situation where you need to defend yourself with only one hand. Ie other hand got shot or injured. You can rack slide on your belt, or shoe, or edge of virtually anything that is not soft.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Trev H » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:46 am

Avid hunter here... from a long family line of avid hunters.... and fishermen...

My collection of Hunting shotguns / rifles includes...

Remington woodsmaster .308 semi auto - passed down from my Grandfather to me. My son currently deer hunts with this one. It has a 3x9 scope. He has killed 5 deer with it so far, 1 shot each. Nothing wrong with that.

Muzzelloader (Black Knight 92) 50 cal - deer hunting... 3-12 scope.

Winchester M-59 semi auto shotgun - This is my fathers old quail gun. He also used it for dove hunting.. it is very light and easy to swing... has a barrel that is made from a thin steel tube, with fiberglass overlay. I think they are sort of rare. My brother and I flipped a coin to decide who got it after my father passed. It is one of my most prized pieces of hunting equipment.

Ruger 10-22 - a fine little 22 semi-auto rifle that I bought for my son (used mostly for squirrel hunting).

Winchester 22 mag, bolt action. I bought this gun with Fur money when I was a teenager. It has a 3-9 scope. I have killed hundreds of squirrel and other varmits with it. Killed a possum with it last night... I ran him off the back porch several times and whipped him up pretty good, but he could not resist the easy to get bowl of cat food on the back porch... So now he has been 22 magged :-)

H&R 12 gauge single barrel shotgun 30" full... another one that I bought with fur money when I was a teenager. Fox hunting, squirrel hunting, turkey hunting...

New England Amrs - Topper Model .410 shotgun... My son's first shotgun. He killed many squirrel with it when he was 6-10 years old. Also killed his first buck (an 8 pointer) with that little .410 shooting a slug when he was 8 years old. Absolutely my best day hunting ever...

Mossberg 20 gauge pump - my son's current shotgun.

We also have a single action 22 pistol, a semi auto (High Standard) 22 pistol...

Then lastly the one I carry with me all of the time now... a Ruger LCP .380. It's a great little pocket gun.

Trev H

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by reggiesimpson » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:29 am

For home defense (according to an experienced police officer friend) the shortest pump action shotgun available is the most effective.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Nowizard » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:42 am

Difficult question that has an easier answer for hunting since you will probably be either shooting at relatively close range for game such as pheasants or ducks/geese or longer range for deer (possibly) or Mountain Goats/sheep, for example. For home defense, a shotgun with as short a barrel as is legal is suggested by many since you will be very nervous if in a circumstance where a gun might be used. Obvious difficulty with one to five shots, only three in some states requiring a plug. Pistol allows more shots but is not as accurate. A primary concern is that you have a very short period of time, often only ten seconds, if a person bursts into your house. That means the gun must be very close by. Many teachers in concealed carry courses even recommend the gun be on a night stand at night with safety off. Without attempting to get into the whole gun control controversy, there are definitely decisions to be made about the degree to which the guns provide safety from unknown intruders versus risk to those in the home, particularly children, if the guns are loaded and the safety is either off or on. They must be immediately accessible which leads to complex decisions.

Tim

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by YttriumNitrate » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:15 am

When I'm out working at my orchard during deer season, I often keep a CVA Wolf muzzle loader nearby just in case deer walks by. In Indiana, a muzzle loader can be used for about 37 days while standard rifles only get 22 days a year, so that heavily influenced the choice. Also, the CVA Wolfs are inexpensive, so I am more likely to bring it out while working because I don't really care if it gets dinged up.

During the winter months after deer season, I bring out a .22 Marlin something or other for rabbits (or tree girdling demons, as I prefer to call them). This one was pre-dinged up because I bought it used off armslist.com. :D

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by hudson » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:37 am

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Toons » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:40 am

No guns here :happy
Should I have one?
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Sheepdog » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:59 am

Why is this a Boglehead topic?
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by jhfenton » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:12 am

Sheepdog wrote:Why is this a Boglehead topic?
Guns are a consumer product like any other. As long as we stick to the practical consumer aspect of it, it's a legitimate discussion. When someone tries to derail the thread I just bite my tongue and wait for the moderators to clean it up.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by psystal » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:35 am

surfhb wrote:
ljl wrote:Wouldn't the boglehead response would be to ask yourself why you think that the chances that you will be able to effectively use the gun in self-defense are greater than the chances that it will be used to cause injury or death to you or someone you know?
Exactly.

What of the odds anyone breaking into the avg boglehead home? Probably not very high considering you're all smart, high wage earners and live in good neighborhoods.

BTW....a shotgun is the only weapon you would want in a self defense situation.
This is all correct. I own two handguns and maintain a carry permit, but have zero delusions that I'll ever have the (unfortunate) opportunity to use it in self-defense. Few of us would, and it's not worth the greatly increased chance of accidents to carry it with me 24/7. They spend the vast majority of the time that they aren't used at ranges in locked storage. However, I keep them for the same reason I keep a LifeStraw, water filtration system, mess kit, tent, compass, etc. We're avid hikers/campers, and this gear doubles as an emergency kit that contains everything we'd need in the event of a natural disaster. Otherwise, the guns are merely a source of entertainment at the range in a modern world where they are not really necessary.

For the OP, I recommend a Glock if you only want/need a single handgun and don't intend to invest a lot of time at the range. They're simple, durable, and cheap. I would always choose a handgun over a shotgun. They're far more portable, easier to shoot without recent practice, and more maneuverable. Stick with a smaller caliber if you don't intend to shoot it often enough to maintain the muscle strength/memory to control a larger round.

Personally, I keep a Glock and an HK USP Tactical .45, but would only recommend the latter if you intend to learn your way around the weapon and fire it regularly.

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by reisner » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:53 am

[quote="Trev H"]Avid hunter here... from a long family line of avid hunters.... and fishermen...


Winchester 22 mag, bolt action. I bought this gun with Fur money when I was a teenager. It has a 3-9 scope. I have killed hundreds of squirrel and other varmits with it. Killed a possum with it last night... I ran him off the back porch several times and whipped him up pretty good, but he could not resist the easy to get bowl of cat food on the back porch... So now he has been 22 magged :-)

H&R 12 gauge single barrel shotgun 30" full... another one that I bought with fur money when I was a teenager. Fox hunting, squirrel hunting, turkey hunting...

Why shoot anything you can't eat? Why leave your cat's food outside, when your cat should be inside, not out decimating the wild bird population?

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:09 pm

Glock 22 .40 pistol
Ruger SR9 9 mm pistol
Browning Buckmark UDX .22 pistol (awesome for target shooting at the local ranges)
Winchester Model 69A .22 bolt action rifle (from my grandpa)
Winchester 870 Wingmaster pump 12 gauge shotgun (from my grandpa)

I used to hunt, now I'm more of a target/hobby shooter. I do have my class 1 carry permit.
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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by YttriumNitrate » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:39 pm

In terms of defense, if you're trying to defend against having to pick up the tab for dinner because you lost a bet and were out shot by your buddy at the range, it's hard to go wrong with an Anschutz. :D
Image

Unfortunately, they provide no defense against hearing "YOU SPENT HOW MUCH ON THAT RIFLE!?!" from your spouse. :oops:

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by CUBuffs » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:58 pm

TxAg wrote:I'm glad to see so many 9mm recommendations. Seems like these days guys claim you need a 45 to do any damage.
FYI, the FBI is switching to 9mm for their duty pistol. Seems like a pretty good endorsement for this caliber. Here are a couple of related articles:

bluesheepdog.com
grandviewoutdoors.com

If these sites don't work just google something like "official pistol for the FBI"

Stay safe Bogleheads and stay the course.

Mike

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by hudson » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:25 pm

YttriumNitrate wrote:In terms of defense, if you're trying to defend against having to pick up the tab for dinner because you lost a bet and were out shot by your buddy at the range, it's hard to go wrong with an Anschutz. :D
Image

Unfortunately, they provide no defense against hearing "YOU SPENT HOW MUCH ON THAT RIFLE!?!" from your spouse. :oops:
What caliber is that? It doesn't appear to have anything to help recoil?

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Re: Guns for hunting/defense

Post by Bulldawg » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:44 pm

10 years ago , my SIL was home alone during a home invasion . She had never fired a weapon before , but remembered my brother's instructions to simply point and shoot . Things ended well for SIL, not as well for the invader. The .38 revolver she used is obviously user friendly ( even for women and newbies) , is cost effective , and should be on a short -list for home-defense weaponry. +P ammo will approach the velocity of a slow .357 but easier to handle per the perceived recoil.

Other recommendations per a short list might include : Glock .380 or 9mm , Keltec P11 with 10 shot clip. Ruger and S&W also make wonderful revolvers and semi-autos .
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