Dentist Bill from 2011

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leonidas
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by leonidas »

Of course, if my insurance co was at fault I would provide any assistance or documentation needed. What I take away from this thread is the money owed is not the OP responsibility, but a mix up btw dentist and insurance that took a few years to be reconciled. Always pay what you owe but your not obligated to pay for others.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by cheese_breath »

fposte wrote:
cheese_breath wrote:But now that you bring it up maybe OP should take more responsibility for knowing what is still owed for each doctor's or dentist's visit and maintaining the appropriate documentation.[. . .]Personally (not bragging) I keep a log of every visit along with the provider's charge, Medicare payment, medigap payment, and outstanding balance so I know exactly where I stand.
Does this mean that you know what the charge will be at the time of the visit, or is this all collated later as EOBs come in? I don't get a charge accounting at time of service, and the challenge with my insurance would be it often takes several revised EOBs before a final payment is decided on, and I don't know which is final at the time....
No, I collate it as the EOBs come in. Now if they were to send me a bill for something I don't have an EOB for I'd immediately be on the phone to his office to find out why.

edit: I should clarify. The collation is actually an Excel spreadsheet where I record all the financial information by date and provider. I keep the hardcopy EOBs in a separate envelope with other financially oriented information such as prescription receipts and insurance payments. If I need a specific hardcopy document it only takes a minute to find it in the envelope.
Last edited by cheese_breath on Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fposte
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by fposte »

Huh, I might start doing this. Thanks for the thought.
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Mrs.Feeley
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by Mrs.Feeley »

toofache32 wrote:
tbradnc wrote:On a tangent, I've never been convinced dental insurance is "real" insurance.

I didn't renew our dental insurance in 2014 so for the first time in forever we didn't have DI. Our dentist offers a 15% discount for cash payments. We pay our bill in full at the time of service with a Fidelity Amex (2% cash back). I'm pretty sure we would have paid more this year in dental insurance premiums than we have by paying cash.
You are correct that there is no such thing as dental "insurance". It's actually the opposite of insurance...they cover small routine cheap procedures like cleanings, but cover very minimal or not at all for expensive stuff like crowns and implants. It would be like your auto insurance paying for your oil changes but not a major collision. I'm amazed that my office staff has to explain to almost every patient how THEIR insurance works that THEY signed up for.
Your office staff must be very good. :D The people in the billing offices of the dental clinics where my husband and I go frequently encourage us to sign up for dental insurance. Our HMO offers a dental benefit that covers cleanings and exams at network providers, so we have that and that's nice. But there are additional policies for more catastrophic coverage that can be purchased optionally through my husband's employer and the billing people always talk well of these especially when preparing estimates for dental work. Every year during the benefit election period I go through the details of the policies and do the math. There would only be cost savings if at least TWO family members had caps and crowns within one year. :shock: And even then the cost savings would be only about $500 - $1000 depending upon the policy as the benefits have low caps and you're going to be paying for these pricey policies every year waiting for that black swan event? I explain this to the dental clinic insurance people and they invariably argue with me. "Oh, but many patients love these policies and find them to be a tremendous cost-savings!" No, they're not. Look at the details of the policies, look at the premiums.

It makes more sense to keep a special dental emergency fund, tucking away those monthly insurance premiums.
toofache32
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by toofache32 »

Mrs.Feeley wrote:
toofache32 wrote:
tbradnc wrote:On a tangent, I've never been convinced dental insurance is "real" insurance.

I didn't renew our dental insurance in 2014 so for the first time in forever we didn't have DI. Our dentist offers a 15% discount for cash payments. We pay our bill in full at the time of service with a Fidelity Amex (2% cash back). I'm pretty sure we would have paid more this year in dental insurance premiums than we have by paying cash.
You are correct that there is no such thing as dental "insurance". It's actually the opposite of insurance...they cover small routine cheap procedures like cleanings, but cover very minimal or not at all for expensive stuff like crowns and implants. It would be like your auto insurance paying for your oil changes but not a major collision. I'm amazed that my office staff has to explain to almost every patient how THEIR insurance works that THEY signed up for.
Your office staff must be very good. :D The people in the billing offices of the dental clinics where my husband and I go frequently encourage us to sign up for dental insurance. Our HMO offers a dental benefit that covers cleanings and exams at network providers, so we have that and that's nice. But there are additional policies for more catastrophic coverage that can be purchased optionally through my husband's employer and the billing people always talk well of these especially when preparing estimates for dental work. Every year during the benefit election period I go through the details of the policies and do the math. There would only be cost savings if at least TWO family members had caps and crowns within one year. :shock: And even then the cost savings would be only about $500 - $1000 depending upon the policy as the benefits have low caps and you're going to be paying for these pricey policies every year waiting for that black swan event? I explain this to the dental clinic insurance people and they invariably argue with me. "Oh, but many patients love these policies and find them to be a tremendous cost-savings!" No, they're not. Look at the details of the policies, look at the premiums.

It makes more sense to keep a special dental emergency fund, tucking away those monthly insurance premiums.

Be very careful with HMOs. They reward the doctor for undertreatment and incentivize doing the least amount of work possible.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by cheese_breath »

fposte wrote:Huh, I might start doing this. Thanks for the thought.
I added more information to my collation comment you might find interesting.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
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Mrs.Feeley
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by Mrs.Feeley »

toofache32 wrote: Be very careful with HMOs. They reward the doctor for undertreatment and incentivize doing the least amount of work possible.
I'm glad you mentioned this because I've felt this to be true through my own experiences. For many years I avoided the dental providers in our HMO's network because I didn't think the clinics were good ones. And I felt one of the dentists I saw was an incompetent. In fact I once timed a cleaning that I got at an HMO network clinic and the dental tech spent only 7 minutes on my teeth. When I complained to the HMO about this the clinic outright lied about the treatment I had received. For many years I skipped the HMO-affiliated clinics and just paid out of pocket for dental care. Eventually my long-term dentists joined the network.
tbradnc
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by tbradnc »

Mrs.Feeley wrote:
Your office staff must be very good. :D The people in the billing offices of the dental clinics where my husband and I go frequently encourage us to sign up for dental insurance. Our HMO offers a dental benefit that covers cleanings and exams at network providers, so we have that and that's nice. But there are additional policies for more catastrophic coverage that can be purchased optionally through my husband's employer and the billing people always talk well of these especially when preparing estimates for dental work. Every year during the benefit election period I go through the details of the policies and do the math. There would only be cost savings if at least TWO family members had caps and crowns within one year. :shock: And even then the cost savings would be only about $500 - $1000 depending upon the policy as the benefits have low caps and you're going to be paying for these pricey policies every year waiting for that black swan event? I explain this to the dental clinic insurance people and they invariably argue with me. "Oh, but many patients love these policies and find them to be a tremendous cost-savings!" No, they're not. Look at the details of the policies, look at the premiums.

It makes more sense to keep a special dental emergency fund, tucking away those monthly insurance premiums.
I don't remember the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure the premium for our dental plan (4 member family, issued by MetLife) was around $85 per month and had a $50 deductible - even for cleanings.

$85 * 12 = $1020 per year for dental "insurance", with each insured having a $50 deductible.

I had my teeth cleaned w/ bite wing x-rays last month for $141 after the 15% discount. It seems to me that the insurance is borderline ripoff and I totally agree with you that more extensive dental work can be managed via budgetary means than through a so-called dental policy.

Dental insurance isn't insurance at all.
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leonidas
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by leonidas »

Family dental coverage through my employer is pretty cheap. I pay 36 a month. So maybe 420 a year. Either way, I get 8 cleanings a year (2 per person) for no charge. So that's a slight benefit for us. This year oldest son had braces. Plan paid out 2500 I paid out the rest. Now that was a great help. Over the last 4 years there's been at least one person that needed other dental work so for us so far it does provide some benefit. Remember, it only takes one root canal for you to curse that you didn't have insurance.
donocash
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by donocash »

toofache32 wrote:Amazing how many people think if the dentist doesn't get paid by the insurance company, then it must be the dentist's "fault" or they did something wrong.

Nobody is blaming the dentist at all Nobody is saying the dentist did something wrong.

What most everyone is saying is that the patient has the right to have this bill explained to him, including an explanation of why the bill has come so much later after the procedure.

If the patient paid his share of the bill upfront, before service was rendered, why is he now receiving another bill three years later?

Do you think that is not reasonable? If not, why not?
toofache32
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by toofache32 »

donocash wrote:
toofache32 wrote:Amazing how many people think if the dentist doesn't get paid by the insurance company, then it must be the dentist's "fault" or they did something wrong.
Nobody is blaming the dentist at all Nobody is saying the dentist did something wrong.

:shock:
Are we reading the same thread???

denovo wrote:
westie wrote:Sounds like that's between you and the insurance company. They refused to pay, call them, the dentist just wants to get paid for work he legitimately performed.
No, it doesn't. It looks like the dentist did what he was required to do , i.e. file in time and with proper notations, and he' trying to stick the bill to the patient
I would tell the dentist to pound sand.
denovo wrote:
passionit wrote:. Looking at the bill it look like that they did not raised to the insurance company the bill in time for that year and then when later they raised in January of next year the insurance company denied the claim but they never informed me about it. So my question is that if they did not raise to insurance company claim in time then am i responsible for it? Also the dental insurance company also was changed so next year i had a different insurance company.
You have no responsibility here. When the dentist accepts X insurance they agree to do certain things like file claims within X days and with proper relevant information on the procedure. The dentist's office failed to do it and now they want to stick with you the bill. They can't do that.
Mudpuppy wrote:....It might be an insurance mistake made by the doctor's office and you are not responsible to pay when the doctor's office makes a mistake with the insurance.
Mudpuppy
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by Mudpuppy »

toofache32 wrote:
donocash wrote:
toofache32 wrote:Amazing how many people think if the dentist doesn't get paid by the insurance company, then it must be the dentist's "fault" or they did something wrong.
Nobody is blaming the dentist at all Nobody is saying the dentist did something wrong.

:shock:
Are we reading the same thread???

...
Mudpuppy wrote:....It might be an insurance mistake made by the doctor's office and you are not responsible to pay when the doctor's office makes a mistake with the insurance.
Please do not put words into my mouth that do not exist. Notice the word "might" in my statement. I have repeatedly said there is not enough information to determine who has the obligation for this payment. It MIGHT be the dentist's office if they made a mistake in billing the insurance and the insurance would have covered the charge had they been properly billed. It MIGHT be the patient if the treatment was not covered by the insurance.

But it definitely means that the OP needs to gather more information instead of just assuming the bill is legitimate and sending off a payment. This is his right as a patient. He is not skipping out on the bill. He is simply making sure the bill is legitimate given the contract in place at the time of service. And just because your contracts say one thing does not mean that this dentist's contracts are identical. We have absolutely no idea what the contract was. That's one of the pieces of information that we are missing.

Perhaps you're reading more into the thread than exists due to this being your profession. It is human nature to want to defend others in one's profession, but there just isn't enough information provided yet to point fingers in any direction. And laying out possibilities is not the same as assigning blame. In absence of additional information, it is just postulating and theorizing.
toofache32
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Re: Dentist Bill from 2011

Post by toofache32 »

I was not intending to put words in your mouth, and I did quote your "might". But you suggested the doctor's office might have made a mistake, yet you didn't suggest the insurance company might have made a mistake. Thus my initial point at the bottom of page 1.
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