Light Bulb Question

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denovo
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Light Bulb Question

Post by denovo » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:06 pm

I needed to replace a set of recess lighting and the two options I was considering was Tubular CFL v Spiral CFL. What are the pros and cons of these? Is it just a matter of taste or design or are there practical differences? I care mostly about brightness and the scope of the brightness.

Thanks in advance. Also any recommended brands would be nice. I was looking at Feit because that's what Costco has.

http://www.costco.com/Feit-BR30-CFL-Ref ... 29090.html

http://www.costco.com/Feit-Twist-CFL-%7 ... 29089.html

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dbCooperAir
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by dbCooperAir » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:21 pm

For the past 2 weeks our Costco had Feit 60w equivalent LED's 3 for $6 with a utility rebate at the front so no mail fuss.

I would not bother with the florescent lamps in the OP unless you really have a good reason.
Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. | -Dwight D. Eisenhower-

snowman
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by snowman » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:25 pm

I honestly do not know the answer, but I purchased the box of tubular ones from Costco (your first link), and I can confirm all the negative reviews on Costco site. Mainly, they take about 5 minutes to warm up, and they don't last. Once they are warm, the light is good. I, like other reviewers, will not buy another box, and would not recommend them. Not worth it.

denovo
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by denovo » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:28 pm

snowman wrote:I honestly do not know the answer, but I purchased the box of tubular ones from Costco (your first link), and I can confirm all the negative reviews on Costco site. Mainly, they take about 5 minutes to warm up, and they don't last. Once they are warm, the light is good. I, like other reviewers, will not buy another box, and would not recommend them. Not worth it.



So do you think incandescent or led is better?

KlangFool
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by KlangFool » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:43 pm

denovo wrote:I needed to replace a set of recess lighting and the two options I was considering was Tubular CFL v Spiral CFL. What are the pros and cons of these? Is it just a matter of taste or design or are there practical differences? I care mostly about brightness and the scope of the brightness.

Thanks in advance. Also any recommended brands would be nice. I was looking at Feit because that's what Costco has.

http://www.costco.com/Feit-BR30-CFL-Ref ... 29090.html

http://www.costco.com/Feit-Twist-CFL-%7 ... 29089.html


TS,

1) You supposed to use the reflector version. First link. In order to spread light evenly..

2) Costco has good return policy. So, if you have a bad batch, you could just return them. I have no problem with those light bulbs so far. I used about 20 to 30 of them in the house.

KlangFool

denovo
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by denovo » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:53 pm

dbCooperAir wrote:For the past 2 weeks our Costco had Feit 60w equivalent LED's 3 for $6 with a utility rebate at the front so no mail fuss.

I would not bother with the florescent lamps in the OP unless you really have a good reason.


CFL's are brighter than LED's and I am not paying 15 dollars per bulb (vs $2) unless it's at gunpoint.

Spirit Rider
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Spirit Rider » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:05 pm

denovo wrote:
dbCooperAir wrote:For the past 2 weeks our Costco had Feit 60w equivalent LED's 3 for $6 with a utility rebate at the front so no mail fuss.

I would not bother with the florescent lamps in the OP unless you really have a good reason.

CFL's are brighter than LED's and I am not paying 15 dollars per bulb (vs $2) unless it's at gunpoint.

If they have the same lumens they are the same brightness. I don't know where you are looking, but either though my utility or sales at Home Depot, Lowes and others, I have purchased 60W equivalent A19 LED bulbs for $2 - $5.

piperkub
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by piperkub » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:19 pm

CFL is older technology based on the traditional florescent. I would highly recommend the LED either in the flood version comparable in size to the lamp you have now. The product should last 10 years, now convert that into how much you actually use and it should pay for itself. The real caution is to be sure to purchase the 3000-3500K color or often called soft-white so that it blends in and keeps the colors under the light correct. Just a tad toward the yellow spectrum but it doesn't make your colors look washed out. Also be sure to purchase a dimable variety so it will function like your old incandescents. The wattage is about 9 watts compared to 18 watts for florescents and 75 watts for original incandescents.

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just frank
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by just frank » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:24 pm

I used regular CFLs throughout my house for a decade, loved 'em. And every reflector CFL in a recessed light I have ever seen was cr@p, and made me wish I never bought em. Bought the $20 LED downlights, and v happy ever since. Should last a decade or more.

Reflector CFLS are junk, dim, diffuse light that takes a million years to warm up. Skip em.

snowman
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by snowman » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:42 pm

denovo wrote:
snowman wrote:I honestly do not know the answer, but I purchased the box of tubular ones from Costco (your first link), and I can confirm all the negative reviews on Costco site. Mainly, they take about 5 minutes to warm up, and they don't last. Once they are warm, the light is good. I, like other reviewers, will not buy another box, and would not recommend them. Not worth it.



So do you think incandescent or led is better?

Honestly, I am no expert. I bought a few boxes of different sizes in both versions (your links) at Costco, to start replacing all light bulbs in my big house. All of them were ridiculously cheap at Costco, like $30 box for $4. I don't recall exact numbers, but it felt like I am getting them for free (combined Costco and utility rebates). So from that standpoint they are better, I guess. However, when you first turn them on, they are dim, and they take about 5 minutes to warm up. So I would definitely not place them in the rooms where you want light on instantly, like bathrooms. I can tolerate them in the kitchen... They definitely are not better, but they are supposed to last a lot longer, that's their main selling point.

Because of the low price, there is no reason to return them, but I would not recommend them either. Since Costco has really nice return policies, you may want to buy a box and install the lights in your room/s, and you will see how much you like them. Like I said before, the light is really nice and indistinguishable from traditional bulb, it just takes time...

ourbrooks
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by ourbrooks » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:21 pm

You can't say categorically that LEDs are brighter than CFLs or vice versa for the same incandescent equivalent. It depends on how many lumens they think the incandescent is. I've seen 75 watt equivalents anywhere from 900 to 1500 lumens. That's a visible difference. Even the lumen ratings don't seem to be very accurate.

Brightness aside, LEDs all seem to come on instantly and last anywhere from 20,000 to 30,000 hours, somewhere between 2 and 3 times as long as CFLs and they use 80% as much power. (They may, in fact, last a lot longer than 30,000 hours, but no one wants to wait three years to validate the claim before they sell their bulbs.) Also, if LEDs break, you don't have to worry about mercury contamination. Home Depot has TCP BR30 LEDs for about $10 a piece; when you do the numbers, their lifetime cost is lower than the Costco CFLs. Costco also has BR30 LEDs for the $10 price.

denovo
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by denovo » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:27 pm

:oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.

bhsince87
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by bhsince87 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:50 pm

denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


In recessed lighting, you'll want the straight. The spirals are best for omni-directional lighting.

That being said......

I tried a couple LED recessed bulbs last year. Soon after, I gave my CFL recessed bulbs away and replaced them all with LEDs.

There are good deals on CFL's now, but it's for a reason. But if you don't use them much, they might still make sense.
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Easy Rhino
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Easy Rhino » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:06 pm

"tube vs twisty" is a red herring. Look inside the frosted pic of the reflector, it's still twisty in there too.

The real question is what shape of a bulb do you want, and that depends on where you're installing it. you want the bulged reflector (BR30) in a recessed light, while the uncovered spiral bulb is meant to fit in 'standard light bulb" sockets, like for a table lamp.

The other thing is you need to know if you need dimmable lights or not.

my house has br30 recessed lights all over the darn place, so I like to think of myself as an expert :)

A few were Feit non-dimmable BR30 reflectors. Perhaps the same model as costco. I hated them. The really did take forever to get to full brightness. Even some other CFL bulbs I got could get up to full brightness faster. Although we ended up going all LED, partly because of some CA state rebates, and mainly because the lights infuriated me less. If you find really good sales at costco or the hardware stores, you can get the BR30 led's for around $10 a bulb which ain't too bad. incidentally I needed dimmable bulbs, and while they make dimmable CFL's, they're not much cheaper if at all from dimmable LEDs.

KlangFool
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by KlangFool » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:42 pm

Easy Rhino wrote:"tube vs twisty" is a red herring. Look inside the frosted pic of the reflector, it's still twisty in there too.

The real question is what shape of a bulb do you want, and that depends on where you're installing it. you want the bulged reflector (BR30) in a recessed light, while the uncovered spiral bulb is meant to fit in 'standard light bulb" sockets, like for a table lamp.

The other thing is you need to know if you need dimmable lights or not.

my house has br30 recessed lights all over the darn place, so I like to think of myself as an expert :)

A few were Feit non-dimmable BR30 reflectors. Perhaps the same model as costco. I hated them. The really did take forever to get to full brightness. Even some other CFL bulbs I got could get up to full brightness faster. Although we ended up going all LED, partly because of some CA state rebates, and mainly because the lights infuriated me less. If you find really good sales at costco or the hardware stores, you can get the BR30 led's for around $10 a bulb which ain't too bad. incidentally I needed dimmable bulbs, and while they make dimmable CFL's, they're not much cheaper if at all from dimmable LEDs.


Easy Rhino,

Are those BR 30 LED = 65 watts equivalent?? I could not go LED because I need 120 watts equivalent and those LED are very expensive.

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LongerPrimer
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by LongerPrimer » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:54 am

^ wait two years. :annoyed
LED lumen per watt technology doubles every 18-24 months. :mrgreen:

Pizzasteve510
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Pizzasteve510 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:18 am

Generally speaking, 'twisty' is meant to retrofit an existing fixture designed for incandescent bulbs. 'Tubular' is designed for CFL fixtures and will hence be slightly more efficient. There are also LED fixtures and 'retrofit projects', so the answer generally depends on what your fixtures are designed for and/or whether you plan to change them out or not.

My DW tells me that the best efficiency is achieved when bulbs are what fixture is designed for.

Valuethinker
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:41 am

denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


But you might be locking yourself into an obsolete technology-- buying a fitting that only takes CFLs?

My bet is in 10 years CFLs will be quite rare, and expensive for being rare. At the current pace of innovation, that could be 5 years.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:43 am

denovo wrote:
snowman wrote:I honestly do not know the answer, but I purchased the box of tubular ones from Costco (your first link), and I can confirm all the negative reviews on Costco site. Mainly, they take about 5 minutes to warm up, and they don't last. Once they are warm, the light is good. I, like other reviewers, will not buy another box, and would not recommend them. Not worth it.



So do you think incandescent or led is better?


Incandescent bulbs, will, as I understand it, essentially be unobtainable in most countries quite shortly. They *can* be made to meet the energy efficiency regs but the technology advantage of LEDs is so large, that the manufacturers won't find it economic to make them. For a few years stockpiles will still be around, but after that...

Valuethinker
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:45 am

denovo wrote:
dbCooperAir wrote:For the past 2 weeks our Costco had Feit 60w equivalent LED's 3 for $6 with a utility rebate at the front so no mail fuss.

I would not bother with the florescent lamps in the OP unless you really have a good reason.


CFL's are brighter than LED's and I am not paying 15 dollars per bulb (vs $2) unless it's at gunpoint.


There are certainly lower prices in the USA for LEDs than $15-- IKEA? Costco? In any case, the hassle (and danger-- falls are the biggest single cause of household injury) of getting up on a ladder makes me want the longest lasting lightbulb possible. Does depend on the fitting of course.

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by NHRATA01 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:12 am

denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent. CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.

Valuethinker
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:33 am

NHRATA01 wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent.


What's the outlook? Incandescents are around, but will the manufacturers keep producing them? The regulatory situation has squeezed them (they are still available for most purposes as I understand it) but the LED technology has just moved in leaps and bounds.

'Replacement' lightbulbs is about to become a legacy market. The lifespans of the LEDs are, at least in theory, so long that the replacement market will shrink to a very small proportion of the total market. (there's a question whether the manufacturers will fully exploit that, for exactly that reason, it remains to be seen).

Perhaps it is only halogens that are about to disappear-- the LED technology just makes them obsolete.

I imagine there are applications where CFLs will still be required.

CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.


My porch CFL burned out rather quickly. I think the problem is they don't do well with big changes in temperature and particularly cold?

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by KlangFool » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:44 am

Valuethinker wrote:
NHRATA01 wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent.


What's the outlook? Incandescents are around, but will the manufacturers keep producing them? The regulatory situation has squeezed them (they are still available for most purposes as I understand it) but the LED technology has just moved in leaps and bounds.

'Replacement' lightbulbs is about to become a legacy market. The lifespans of the LEDs are, at least in theory, so long that the replacement market will shrink to a very small proportion of the total market. (there's a question whether the manufacturers will fully exploit that, for exactly that reason, it remains to be seen).

Perhaps it is only halogens that are about to disappear-- the LED technology just makes them obsolete.

I imagine there are applications where CFLs will still be required.

CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.


My porch CFL burned out rather quickly. I think the problem is they don't do well with big changes in temperature and particularly cold?


Valuethinker,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/1 ... -lighting#

LED light has its own kind of problem in recessed / enclosed environment due to heat dissipation.

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Valuethinker
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:50 am

KlangFool wrote:
My porch CFL burned out rather quickly. I think the problem is they don't do well with big changes in temperature and particularly cold?


Valuethinker,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/1 ... -lighting#

LED light has its own kind of problem in recessed / enclosed environment due to heat dissipation.

KlangFool


Thank you. That was very interesting.

I think halogens are an almost terminal technology-- give it 5-10 years. That may also be true for incandescents short of a replacement market. Like all technology that doesn't mean we have a perfect solution, just one whose production economics will drown out all rival technologies.

xrw1
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by xrw1 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:22 am

From my experience CFL do take a little bit to warm up so you won't have instant light. LED lights are instant but their lighting is more directional. LEDs don't light up a living room as nicely as CFL once fully warmed up.

I like LEDs in areas I want to spotlight an area like under the kitchen cabinets and hallways. If i want to light up a full room I find that CFLs and the old fashion light bulbs work best to have omni direction for lighting.

denovo
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by denovo » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:03 am

NHRATA01 wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent. CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.


Boy, I'd wish people would stop making assumptions about the needs of other people. The arrogance on this thread is infuriating. I am a tenant, I am leaving in 7 months. It makes no sense for me to pay a ton of money extra for an led light bulb that lasts 8 years.
Last edited by denovo on Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

denovo
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by denovo » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:06 am

Valuethinker wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


But you might be locking yourself into an obsolete technology-- buying a fitting that only takes CFLs?

My bet is in 10 years CFLs will be quite rare, and expensive for being rare. At the current pace of innovation, that could be 5 years.


Who's talking about fitting? I was just replacing the bulb!!!

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Epsilon Delta » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:49 pm

Valuethinker wrote:Incandescent bulbs, will, as I understand it, essentially be unobtainable in most countries quite shortly. They *can* be made to meet the energy efficiency regs but the technology advantage of LEDs is so large, that the manufacturers won't find it economic to make them. For a few years stockpiles will still be around, but after that...


You can still buy gas lamps, oil lamps, and candles. Making incandescent light bulbs is just about within the capacity of hobbyist glass blowers, let alone small manufacturers. (Edison did it with pointy sticks and stone axes :twisted: ). Baring a massive, continuing and pretty pointless crackdown I'd expect incandescent bulbs to be available forever, although at greater cost. They will be for specialized uses such as incubators, reptile tanks and historic reenactment.

The reason a continuing crack down would be pointless is that LEDs are just plain better. The perceived problems can and will be addressed if they matter to enough people. The society for uncreative anachronisms* does not have that many members, and eventually even the really stubborn ones die off. For example by 1976 there were very few people still complaining about the decimalisation of the pound, although the holdouts could be quite entertaining.

* Not to be confused with the society for creative anachronisms.

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by dbCooperAir » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:58 pm

denovo wrote:
NHRATA01 wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent. CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.


Boy, I'd wish people would stop making assumptions about the needs of other people. The arrogance on this thread is infuriating. I am a tenant, I am leaving in 7 months. It makes no sense for me to pay a ton of money extra for an led light bulb that lasts 8 years.


I would suggest you just get some plain old incandescent lamps and enjoy how well they work and not have to deal with warm up time etc. of fluorescent lamps. I doubt you ever recoup your cost in 7 months anyway.
Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. | -Dwight D. Eisenhower-

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Dutch
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Dutch » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:59 pm

denovo wrote:Boy, I'd wish people would stop making assumptions about the needs of other people. The arrogance on this thread is infuriating. I am a tenant, I am leaving in 7 months. It makes no sense for me to pay a ton of money extra for an led light bulb that lasts 8 years.


Maybe if you had mentioned that in your OP, you would have gotten different answers.

Why even ask the question if you're leaving in 7 months? Just pick whatever is in the bargain bin. Infuriating indeed :annoyed

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Epsilon Delta » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:38 pm

dbCooperAir wrote:I would suggest you just get some plain old incandescent lamps and enjoy how well they work and not have to deal with warm up time etc. of fluorescent lamps. I doubt you ever recoup your cost in 7 months anyway.

But you might have to replace them within 7 months. Light bulbs used to be part of the monthly shopping list.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Epsilon Delta » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:51 pm

Dutch wrote:
denovo wrote:Boy, I'd wish people would stop making assumptions about the needs of other people. The arrogance on this thread is infuriating. I am a tenant, I am leaving in 7 months. It makes no sense for me to pay a ton of money extra for an led light bulb that lasts 8 years.


Maybe if you had mentioned that in your OP, you would have gotten different answers.

Why even ask the question if you're leaving in 7 months? Just pick whatever is in the bargain bin. Infuriating indeed :annoyed

It's entirely possible for a CFL to have a pay back of less than 7 months. It only takes a couple of hours a day of use, and it will be winter.

LongerPrimer
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by LongerPrimer » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:16 pm

^:roflmao:
:annoyed
I'm cleaning out mom's house, still have some incandescent. You can have them for free, if you pay sipping and small handling charge.
:annoyed :sharebeer :moneybag

mhalley
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by mhalley » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:47 pm

This may be superfluous to the OP, but they are coming out with improved Cree LEDs. I don't know if they are on the shelf yet, but should be soon if not.
http://www.gizmag.com/new-cree-led-bulb/34462/ The article states they will be 2 bucks cheaper. Maybe they will have a sale on the old ones? The OP could always take the bulbs with him when he moves.
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by bloom2708 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:33 pm

Go with the LED. Instant on. Better light. Lower wattage. Longer life. Easy choice.

I replaced all CFL with LED recessed BR40 and Feit 40 or 60 watt LED from Costco over a period of a couple months. Couldn't be happier.

Those CFL that take 2-3 minutes to "warm up" and get to full brightness are terrible. Plus they don't last nearly as long as the best case scenario.
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by lululu » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:03 pm

NHRATA01 wrote: CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.


I have CFLs in the bathrooms and laundry closet and yellow "bug light exterior" CFLs in some outdoor lights, one enclosed. These have been in there for years without needing replacing. There is certainly nothing wrong with the quality of the indoor light, but then I paid attention to that when I bought them. I can't speak to the yellow outdoor light quality, I mean, they're bug lights, so that's what they look like. The outdoor lamp post one is on a timer, no sense having a light on at 3am.

LongerPrimer
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Need some punch lines.

Post by LongerPrimer » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:22 pm

How many Bogleheads does it take to change a Bulb?
:annoyed :oops:
Really need some good lines. :sharebeer

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dbCooperAir
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Re: Need some punch lines.

Post by dbCooperAir » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:37 pm

LongerPrimer wrote:How many Bogleheads does it take to change a Bulb?
:annoyed :oops:
Really need some good lines. :sharebeer


This is not going to end well. 1.2.3....
Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. | -Dwight D. Eisenhower-

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Re: Need some punch lines.

Post by bhsince87 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:03 pm

LongerPrimer wrote:How many Bogleheads does it take to change a Bulb?
:annoyed :oops:
Really need some good lines. :sharebeer


One.
BH87

TomTX
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by TomTX » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:57 pm

dbCooperAir wrote:For the past 2 weeks our Costco had Feit 60w equivalent LED's 3 for $6 with a utility rebate at the front so no mail fuss.

I would not bother with the florescent lamps in the OP unless you really have a good reason.


I think the Feit LED bulbs at Costco kinda suck. Energy efficiency isn't great, nor is the color. I much prefer the CREE bulbs @ Home Depot for cheaper LED bulbs ($10, minus any utility rebates)

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:52 am

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Incandescent bulbs, will, as I understand it, essentially be unobtainable in most countries quite shortly. They *can* be made to meet the energy efficiency regs but the technology advantage of LEDs is so large, that the manufacturers won't find it economic to make them. For a few years stockpiles will still be around, but after that...


You can still buy gas lamps, oil lamps, and candles. Making incandescent light bulbs is just about within the capacity of hobbyist glass blowers, let alone small manufacturers. (Edison did it with pointy sticks and stone axes :twisted: ). Baring a massive, continuing and pretty pointless crackdown I'd expect incandescent bulbs to be available forever, although at greater cost. They will be for specialized uses such as incubators, reptile tanks and historic reenactment.

The reason a continuing crack down would be pointless is that LEDs are just plain better. The perceived problems can and will be addressed if they matter to enough people. The society for uncreative anachronisms* does not have that many members, and eventually even the really stubborn ones die off. For example by 1976 there were very few people still complaining about the decimalisation of the pound, although the holdouts could be quite entertaining.

* Not to be confused with the society for creative anachronisms.


On the pound... I think it has lasted longer than that (or maybe I just have old relatives)... thinking the Imperial system of measurements: I was at a wargaming convention in Baltimore, once, and said 'metres' (one hexagon was one yard) and got sternly corrected by an American gamemaster from New Hampshire 'I do not recognize the term meter'. 30 years ago, that has stuck in my mind.

I agree with you re incandescents. In that, once they are replaced with LEDs lasting 5-6 times as long, the replacement market for bulbs will get much smaller (in developed countries; in the underdeveloped world of course they'll jump straight to the LED devices -- places like China and Vietnam which are much nearer to universal electrification but $6/ bulb is a serious cost, will be the last holdouts), and then the manufacturers will just find it uneconomic to keep making them.

One will, no doubt, simply find that there is some producer, somewhere in China, that still makes them. Being British we manage to have (at least) 2 types of bulbs (screw in and bayonet mount) and so that inefficiency will compound the supply problem.

However you *could* get vacuum tubes (I am guessing you still can? For stereos amps?) or 'valves' as the English strangely call them. One story I read was that the B52 bombers, for Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) protection, needed to have a certain number of electronic devices using tubes. And the only source was... the Soviet Union. If you've ever seen/ read 'The Rhinemann Exchange' by Ludlum (tele mini series with Roddy McDowell and Steven Collins) that leads to interesting scenarios (in that one, it is Allied industrial diamonds for a German bomb sight). But I think the US Air Force (can't find the source) just used to order them by mail order through a third party.

I love the term 'Society for Uncreative Anachronism'. Something you would find in a L Sprague de Camp novel, or Charlie Stross's Labyrinth series, or Robert Sheckley (the one of which Douglas Adams said 'I owe him everything I know, and his novels are actually funny'). Actually come to think of it, it is really very Douglas Adams.

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:54 am

denovo wrote:
NHRATA01 wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent. CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.


Boy, I'd wish people would stop making assumptions about the needs of other people. The arrogance on this thread is infuriating. I am a tenant, I am leaving in 7 months. It makes no sense for me to pay a ton of money extra for an led light bulb that lasts 8 years.


We just lacked information.

One feels very Sherlock Holmes at this point: the question you didn't ask, Watson.

Valuethinker
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Re: Need some punch lines.

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:55 am

LongerPrimer wrote:How many Bogleheads does it take to change a Bulb?
:annoyed :oops:
Really need some good lines. :sharebeer


First they have to decide if it needs changing.

m2go
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by m2go » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:48 am

Valuethinker wrote:
denovo wrote:
NHRATA01 wrote:
denovo wrote::oops: All I had a question was about spiral versus regular cfl's, I am not interested in being sold on led's.


Vs. a CFL, it's a far better solution though. If you're not concerned about energy savings then get an incandescent. CFL's have horrible quality light, don't dim well (no matter what the box says), and don't last near as long in short duty cycle situations (ie closets/bathrooms). The only situation I personally find a CFL to be superior, due to their much cheaper initial cost these days, is for a porch light that stays on all night where you don't care much about light quality.

Throw in an LED flood now and you won't have to worry about this again for 25 years or so.


Boy, I'd wish people would stop making assumptions about the needs of other people. The arrogance on this thread is infuriating. I am a tenant, I am leaving in 7 months. It makes no sense for me to pay a ton of money extra for an led light bulb that lasts 8 years.


We just lacked information.



Well, actually OP did give you all the information:

The choice is between:
1 - http://www.costco.com/Feit-BR30-CFL-Ref ... 29090.html
2 - http://www.costco.com/Feit-Twist-CFL-%7 ... 29089.html

I presume that's OP's bargain bin... He narrowed te choice to a single 1-bit decision. He did not ask for recommendations.

In all the frenzy about recommending better solutions... I have one, too: Op should do it during daylight hours. It's extremely cheap and a long-lasting source of light. LOL.

About as to the point of choosing between the two as LEDs. (Hey, it also suggests another source of light. With some specific drawbacks thereto.)

Notwithstanding that, I learned a lot from the discussion, not least to not believe the optimistic LED life projections as per http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/1 ... -lighting#

It's not that LEDs can't live that long, but they can't in the environments we put them in. Have been using CFLs in most of the house for >10 years, lots of early deaths -- ballast problem with GE fixtures.GE sent me a whole new bunch for the entire house eventually.

The old ones where immediately on, the new ones have the same warming up effects. The old ones are great and those that survived the early death have been working great ever since. (Still have a few spare GE domes in the attic.)

I'm great there are so many early adopters here (not very Boglehead-ish, I would think?), if we can fix the technology issues, or in the right space LEDs could be quite a good solution, if heat-induced death can be solved. (I work in EE - so sure, everything can be solved. I can put a fan or a liquid cooling solution on that, depending on what the temperature cooling gradient needs to be :-) Expect our bathrooms to get them first in our house.

As a parting, cultural observation (being originally from Europe), I have always been intrigued by the fact that many apartments, houses and even hotel rooms in the US lack proper lighting, and have these weird plug-attached contraptions rather than fixed installations that never turn rooms really bright. (And why the hell would anybody want to DIM a light?)
When I go into a room --- יְהִי אוֹר or fiat lux, "Let there be Light, and it was good". I must have missed the part that says "and then He dimmed the light" :-)

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just frank
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by just frank » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:31 am

Terribly sorry we annoyed the OP.

I think the response to the thread was caused by the framing of the question as between two bad choices. As if a poster asked...."I have a long commute to work, and I have to choose between a Hummer and a moped. Which one is better?" and our brains melted :wink: , and we all said just get a compact car or Prius.

No arrogance intended. As a tenant I would stick with incandescents, or mix in a few (cheapest) cfls, so you are not standing in the dark when you are waiting for the cold upside down cfls to warm up. Or get some cheap LED bulbs and take them with you when you leave.

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by TomTX » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:43 am

just frank wrote:Terribly sorry we annoyed the OP.

I think the response to the thread was caused by the framing of the question as between two bad choices. As if a poster asked...."I have a long commute to work, and I have to choose between a Hummer and a moped. Which one is better?" and our brains melted :wink: , and we all said just get a compact car or Prius.

No arrogance intended. As a tenant I would stick with incandescents, or mix in a few (cheapest) cfls, so you are not standing in the dark when you are waiting for the cold upside down cfls to warm up. Or get some cheap LED bulbs and take them with you when you leave.


Agreed.

Hell, when we sold our house 9 years ago we took the CFLs with us, and I have stashed the incandescents which were in place when we moved in here. It's really fast and easy to change a light bulb most of the time.... ....except for that one recessed fixture over the staircase with the high ceiling at my parents' house.

CFL price then is fairly comparable to LED price now.

Valuethinker
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:23 am

m2go wrote:
I'm great there are so many early adopters here (not very Boglehead-ish, I would think?), if we can fix the technology issues, or in the right space LEDs could be quite a good solution, if heat-induced death can be solved. (I work in EE - so sure, everything can be solved. I can put a fan or a liquid cooling solution on that, depending on what the temperature cooling gradient needs to be :-) Expect our bathrooms to get them first in our house.


I have about 40 LEDs, costing about £800 ($1200), mostly replacing halogen spots embedded into ceilings but also replacing ordinary light bulbs. I have had one burn out prematurely in 3 years. They are also safer than halogens because they put out less heat in a confined space.

The ones in the kitchen and bathrooms are doing fine despite the moisture. Also the 'yellow' colour ones are good now as opposed to the harsher daylight ones, although the undercounter kitchen LED strip remains a favourite.

Maybe they won't run 20,000 hours, but they certainly last longer than my CFLs. Where there is a dimmer switch, I have kept halogens for the moment.

I don't count myself as an 'early adopter' of anything (I still have a blackberry! instead of a smartphone, and I had Nokia phones for 15 years). However I pay c. 23 cents US (15.5 pence) per kwhr for electricity. Once I ran the numbers, the move to LEDs was a no brainer. And the light quality is better than a CFL, without that annoying 'warm up' time.

Although European voltage is 220v, apparently the National Grid in the UK delivers over that voltage, periodically, so light bulbs have a way of burning out prematurely.

As a parting, cultural observation (being originally from Europe), I have always been intrigued by the fact that many apartments, houses and even hotel rooms in the US lack proper lighting, and have these weird plug-attached contraptions rather than fixed installations that never turn rooms really bright. (And why the hell would anybody want to DIM a light?)
When I go into a room --- יְהִי אוֹר or fiat lux, "Let there be Light, and it was good". I must have missed the part that says "and then He dimmed the light" :-)


Actually I would say (in France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Prague) I have had far more impossibly dark hotel rooms in Europe than in North America. Houses? Lighting design seems more in the culture on this side of the Atlantic *but* the US has moved on in this regard to-- what I think of as a 'normal' Canadian home is probably 20 years out of date.

My major complaint with some restaurants is that the lights are too bright, makes it like a cafeteria. That said, as you get older, low light just doesn't work as well. Things dim, and your ability to adjust to night worsens.

I imagine that in places like California it's less important given the low latitude and the transparency in which you live indoors/ outdoors.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Epsilon Delta » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:40 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Although European voltage is 220v, apparently the National Grid in the UK delivers over that voltage, periodically, so light bulbs have a way of burning out prematurely.



Europe is nominally 230V, as is the UK. The tolerances are wide enough that the actual voltage in the UK is almost always 240V while on the mainland it's 220V. Gotta love that harmonization. Ironically about the only device where it makes a difference is the incandescent light bulb. The life span is something like 1/(V**12) so identical bulbs last about 3 times as long on the mainland.

The UK citizenship test got the UK voltage wrong. I guess being wrong with the crowd is what creates a community.

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:39 am

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:
Although European voltage is 220v, apparently the National Grid in the UK delivers over that voltage, periodically, so light bulbs have a way of burning out prematurely.



Europe is nominally 230V, as is the UK. The tolerances are wide enough that the actual voltage in the UK is almost always 240V while on the mainland it's 220V. Gotta love that harmonization. Ironically about the only device where it makes a difference is the incandescent light bulb. The life span is something like 1/(V**12) so identical bulbs last about 3 times as long on the mainland.


Thank you. Interesting.

The UK citizenship test got the UK voltage wrong. I guess being wrong with the crowd is what creates a community.


Smacks forehead. Oh vey, you should say this to me this weekend of all weekends (obscure UK political reference).

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Re: Light Bulb Question

Post by rokidtoo » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:03 am

piperkub wrote:Also be sure to purchase a dimable variety so it will function like your old incandescents.


FYI. I recently bought some FEIT dimmable LED floods at Costco for our recessed kitchen fixtures. Unfortunately, they sometimes flicker when dimmed. Troubleshooting, I discovered that dimmable CFL and LED lights require a compatible dimmer switch to avoid the flicker. Ours was a dimmer switch designed for incandescent bulbs - apparently, our contractor didn't know there was a difference.

Therefore, I just purchased a CFL/LED dimmer switch that's compatible with the FEIT bulbs (they actually publish a list of compatible bulbs). I'll be installing it on Monday.

Life's getting more complicated. :beer

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