Which generator do you have?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
airahcaz
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:37 pm

Which generator do you have?

Post by airahcaz »

Which generator do you have?

What brand?

What fuel source, natural gas, gasoline, etc?

If you don't mind, what were approximate unit and installation costs?

Thanks
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)
arsenalfan
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:26 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by arsenalfan »

Kohler 20kw natural gas, cost $9300 in total.
I'm sure you've seen this recent thread? http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... st=2174608
FYI annual maintenance plan is $279 (change oil/filter/plugs every 6 months). I understand one can DIY for about $100 in materials.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17100
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Also Kohler 20kw natural gas.

Our installation was such a one-off (upgrade to service, meter, change in service location, landscaping, etc.) that it should not be considered as representative, and I stopped adding it up after a while. Fwiw, I think it was $20k by the time we were done.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
User avatar
Traveller
Posts: 803
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:47 am

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Traveller »

I just have a portable gasoline generator (although a big one). We don't lose power often but I did have a generator outlet I talked in my garage and an automatic transfer switch installed at by breaker box.

While not fully automatic, you just plug in the generator and turn the key if we lose power. A few key rooms and lights are on battery backup to give enough light until I can get the generator going as well.
User avatar
BTDT
Posts: 783
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:40 am
Location: Grand Lake OK

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by BTDT »

Generac 14k - natural gas.

Home appliances are all natural gas so didn't need a 20kw unit. Zero dollar on the install as I did it myself.

FWIW- I think changing oil and filters twice a year is a waste of money unless you live in a perpetual dusty area, and run the unit every week. When I'm staying at home, I start my unit on average once a month versus the programmed weekly no load 'exercise cycle' that comes with the unit. Every three months I put a large load on the unit to 'exercise' the generator portion of the unit...one of those 'use-it-or-lose-it' mandates :oops: .
If past history was all that is needed to play the game of money, the richest people would be librarians.
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Cosmo »

I have been considering a back up 20 kw generator for the entire house for over five years now. Over the last five years, we have had perhaps 3-4 interruptions that I was aware of -10 minutes or less with the exception of one that lasted for around an hour. It really makes it difficult for me to justify the cost of one. However, hurricane Ike came roaring through six years ago and my neighborhood suffered outages of roughly one week so we are certainly vulnerable, even though the entire community has underground distribution lines.

Cosmo
User avatar
Nosferatu
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:07 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Nosferatu »

Seems genny installers are making a killing on 'maintenance'. A permanent home generator is a simple dual cylinder engine. To change the filter & oil once per year on our 20 kw costs about $20. Its only 2 quarts of oil!

Perhaps I'll change the plugs & air filter in a few years, depending on use. In comparison, how often are you performing this maintenance on your car, in terms of hours?
jwtietz
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:00 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by jwtietz »

10kw portable, transfer switch wired to the panel and the genny converted to Nat gas. Conversion kits are on line and cost about 200. The quick connect and hose are a little costly ($100) I ebayed that. I figure if the genny punks out I can easily replace it in a shorter amount of time than the time lag for a dealer to obtain and install parts on a built in.
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

Cosmo wrote:<snip...>even though the entire community has underground distribution lines.

Cosmo
Sure, but how long is the run from the nearest sub-station to your community? Those lines usually run above ground and close to roads (where cars like to run into them and trees like to fall on them :wink: )...

Ours are also underground, but the run to the sub-station is a few miles. That's where most of the problems occur.

- Ron
user5027
Posts: 971
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by user5027 »

In 2006 bought an 8kw (13kw starting) generac/briggs & stratton gasoline fueled with electric start for $1,200.

In 2008 I hired an electrician to install a plug on the side of the house wired to a disconnect switch (will not back feed) sub panel with 8 circuits on it. I paid him $900.

My setup is not an automatic standby but serves my boglehead needs.
4nursebee
Posts: 2642
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:56 am
Location: US

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by 4nursebee »

Champion 4000W from tractor supply.
$400 or so now.
Gasoline.
No upkeep costs so far.
Pale Blue Dot
Carlton
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:46 pm
Location: NYC/Metro Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Carlton »

Which generator do you have? Not too much info. What do you want, whole house, portable, what's the connected load that you need to get by during a outage? Price will vary from a couple of hundred to a few ten-thousand.

The model I got (the day before Sandy hit) was a B&G Storm Responder 5500 watts/8250 start. The unit came with a heavy-duty cord to run inside that provided 4 110v outlets. (I now have a 240 volt outside generator receptacle and main breaker interlock so the whole panel is powered) My standby needs are modest. Power for control transformer for gas boiler, refrigerator, a couple of table lamps with CFL's, Verizon Fios teminal, computer and TV. Enough to get by comfortably. Hot water is from a standing pilot gas water heater that needs no outside power.

I would run the generator about 5-6 hours in the morning, and 5-6 in the evening. Enough time to keep the fridge cold (only open door when it was running) served all my needs. Still used around 5-6 gallons per day. Biggest problem was getting fuel as most of the gas stations had no electricity and the ones that did ran out. I did have the genset filled and several 5 gallon cans, plus around 10 gallons in two motorcycles before the storm. Managed to get fuel around 7 days into the almost 2 week outage.

I will be converting this generator to natural gas with a BBQ type quick connect on the side of the house.
User avatar
shmidds
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:25 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by shmidds »

Most of our recent power outages have been 4-5 days. We bought a Yamaha 2000w inverter generator several years ago. This is enough to do the refrigerator a light and a wifi router. The food stays cool, we can see what were doing, and we have entertainment. The sump pump runs infrequently so we monitor and plug in as necessary. We have a Jotul fireplace insert that can heat the whole house so we stay warm in a winter power outage.
The generator is light and portable, very quiet, and uses a gallon of gas a night. We set it up on cinder blocks under an old metal card table about 15 feet from the house.
Since the generator is so light I now use it to power yard working tools; weed whacker, hedge trimmer, leaf blower. No more fussing with gas engines or batteries and I know that it always has fresh gas, will start, and is ready for an emergency.
Boglegrappler
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:24 am

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Boglegrappler »

I had a Cummins at the old house, and a Kohler at my most recent. 30KW and 38KW.

Its worth noting in this thread that it is always illegal to connect a generator to your house without first disconnecting the house from the street power. Failure to do this causes your generator to "back feed" the power grid, and causes your pole transformer to turn into a "step up" transformer, increasing your 240V generator source to thousands of volts on the damaged lines. This can electrocute the repairmen.

It's not possible to emphasize this strongly enough. I imagine that most people who can improvise their own generator hook-ups know this already, but its always worth repeating.
User avatar
Ged
Posts: 3944
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: Roke

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ged »

My generator setup is a Yamaha 6.5kw plus a Reliant transfer switch. It's dual fuel capable - gasoline and natural gas.

Cost was about $5K total.

It's enough to run most of the appliances in my house except the A/C. Supporting the air conditioning would have added another $10,000 and required a standy-by generator along with all the folderall that entails. Didn't seem worth it since I've only needed a generator once in the 22 years I've lived here.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17100
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Boglegrappler wrote:Its worth noting in this thread that it is always illegal to connect a generator to your house without first disconnecting the house from the street power.
Local code also required us to put up a sign near the electric meter/shutoff advising that the house has a second source of power (I was told for firemen).
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

Carlton wrote:The model I got (the day before Sandy hit) was a B&G Storm Responder 5500 watts/8250 start.
I have the same unit (post Sandy :mrgreen: ). However, our house being all-electric, it was of little use beyond some basic needs and it would not run our heat pump (even if it was directly connected to the circuit). However it did run Mr. Coffee to keep me warm :happy .

I kept it even after I had my 20 KVA unit installed and still use it for outside stuff - like trimming the bushes with an electric trimmer at the back of our property, which are 350'+ from the closest house outlet. I just load it on my lawn tractor cart (sides come off) and it travels wherever it's needed; even to a neighbor who needs some juice during an extended outage.

I've always been a "belt and suspenders" guy (backup on backup), so I guess I'm covered :oops: ...

BTW, the portable is (much) louder than my 20KVA unit. I'm sure I would get nasty-grams from my neighbors if I used it after sundown. Since we have six 20KVA units in our neighborhood (five Generacs, one Kohler) the noise level is really not that bad. Those with the backup units can't hear others and those without one just envy us that do (one of the reasons we had ours installed :wink: ). We got tired of seeing the other five families continuing their lives like nothing had happened.

Fallout shelters in the 60's, home backup generators half a century later. It's always something to cover the "what if's" in life...

- Ron
pshonore
Posts: 8205
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by pshonore »

5000 Watt (6500 peak) Coleman generator - $400 @ Home Depot; $400 for purchase of manual transfer switch and installation by electrician. $50 misc. cables and plugs. Total $850 Runs 220V well pump, furnace including Hot water, frig, lighting circuits including computers/tv etc.
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Cosmo »

Ron wrote:
Cosmo wrote:<snip...>even though the entire community has underground distribution lines.

Cosmo
Sure, but how long is the run from the nearest sub-station to your community? Those lines usually run above ground and close to roads (where cars like to run into them and trees like to fall on them :wink: )...

Ours are also underground, but the run to the sub-station is a few miles. That's where most of the problems occur.

- Ron


This is true but the big delays come in when you are located on in neighborhood with localized damage. If the distribution lines going into a 100,000+ community are damaged, you can bet they will get them repaired very quickly versus repairing damage that will end up getting 10 customers back up and running. Incidentally, the outages associated with Ike up in The Woodlands were due in part to downed transmission towers.
killjoy2012
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by killjoy2012 »

7KW (9KW starting) Champion dual-fuel portable generator. $499 from Costco.
Added aftermarket NG capability for about $200. So for $700, I have a 7KW tri-fuel (gas, LP, NG) portable generator.

My garage is detached and has a 100A subpanel feed from the house.
I simply backfeed the garage and house through a 50A power inlet plug mounted right below the garage sub panel when I need emergency generator power.
I also have NG in the garage.

During a power outage, I turn off the main breaker in the house, then go out the garage and start up my generator (usually on NG), turn off any branch circuits I don't want on during the event, then plug the generator into the power inlet plug after the generator is warmed up. I also have 120v LED wired into the main panel Edison drop that is lit when Edison is hot, off when not -- so I know when power is restored & I can shut the generator off.

Notes:
- I would not recommend this setup unless you fully understand residential electrical systems and how things work. Playing with electricity when you don't know what you're doing is not smart and may kill someone.
- My config is not compliant with building codes or the NEC - yes, I know - thanks.
- The best way to tie in a generator, whole house or portable, is a transfer switch. In my case, that doesn't make a lot of sense since I already have NG and 100A feed into house from the back of the property (garage) and I would much rather have my generator 100' from my home than right outside the window.
TRC
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by TRC »

Honda eu 7000is. 7,000 watts
Gasoline and totally portable so we can take to when we move.
$4,000 plus a few hundred to have the transfer switch installed.
shaboob
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by shaboob »

4000 W Champion also. Enough for frig and portable AC for the bedroom. Can't power the well pump because its only 120V (stupid me). Runs like 12 hrs on a tank of gas a half power.
Hope is not a strategy. That's why we have contingency plans.
placeholder
Posts: 8375
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by placeholder »

You can get converters for most power needs relatively cheaply depending on what you need.
User avatar
plannerman
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: NC Mountains

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by plannerman »

Just replaced a 5.5 KW gasoline portable with a Generac 11 KW natural gas standby generator. First unit cost about $500 15 years ago. Generac was $6000 installed with a transfer switch.
The portable unit did the job of providing our essential power needs, but required someone to be home to pull it out, connect it, start it and maintain the fuel. The Generac is fully automatic.

Somethings that are a good idea when you are 55, aren't so good when you are 70 something....

plannerman
Topic Author
airahcaz
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by airahcaz »

plannerman wrote:Just replaced a 5.5 KW gasoline portable with a Generac 11 KW natural gas standby generator. First unit cost about $500 15 years ago. Generac was $6000 installed with a transfer switch.
The portable unit did the job of providing our essential power needs, but required someone to be home to pull it out, connect it, start it and maintain the fuel. The Generac is fully automatic.

Somethings that are a good idea when you are 55, aren't so good when you are 70 something....

plannerman
What made you choose 11KW vs the 20/22KW?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14459
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Toons »

I have an Onan generator in the RV(propane} :sharebeer
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

airahcaz wrote:What made you choose 11KW vs the 20/22KW?
I'll jump in and add my $.02.

A properly sized genset is matched to the requirements and the target is to use around 75-85% of the units output (allows for running spikes, outside of the 147 surge amps on a 20 KVA unit, available for high load start-up motors, such as AC/heat).

If you get a unit that is "too large", you're just burning/wasting fuel. Too small and you risk tripping the genset's breakers (outside of load shedding).

It's a balancing act and sort of like a HVAC supplier performing an analysis of your home for heating/cooling loads and selecting the proper unit.

- Ron
User avatar
plannerman
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: NC Mountains

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by plannerman »

airahcaz wrote:
plannerman wrote:Just replaced a 5.5 KW gasoline portable with a Generac 11 KW natural gas standby generator. First unit cost about $500 15 years ago. Generac was $6000 installed with a transfer switch.
The portable unit did the job of providing our essential power needs, but required someone to be home to pull it out, connect it, start it and maintain the fuel. The Generac is fully automatic.

Somethings that are a good idea when you are 55, aren't so good when you are 70 something....

plannerman
What made you choose 11KW vs the 20/22KW?
11 KW is more than enough to power essential needs--lights, TVs, computers, furnace , appliances, etc. We have a natural gas furnace, hot water heater and stove. We don't have to run the air conditioner to get through a power outage.

plannerman
Boglegrappler
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:24 am

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Boglegrappler »

Kohler has an online sizing calculator that I assume is roughly accurate. Its a little complicated to use, but has the ability to add extra AC units and other items to ge the best estimate for your sizing.

I've never understood why installers don't calculate the required size by using a clamp-on ammeter at the service entrance with all the major appliances running (a/c, dryer, stove, well pump, etc.). My sense is that there are a lot more generator installations out there that are oversized rather than ones that are undersized.

I didn't do that for my installations either, but on the last one the generator company wanted to upsize me to an even larger one, when I was reasonably sure that I was already in good shape based on the Kohler calculator.
User avatar
bltkmt
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by bltkmt »

Another 20kw Kohler here, mine is propane. Total cost with installation was about $15k, but I had some "issues" to overcome. Great generator.
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

Boglegrappler wrote:<snip...>I've never understood why installers don't calculate the required size by using a clamp-on ammeter at the service entrance with all the major appliances running (a/c, dryer, stove, well pump, etc.). My sense is that there are a lot more generator installations out there that are oversized rather than ones that are undersized.
Our electric company provides info both online (KWH used, hour by hour snapshot) and you can request it for the last two years to determine the highest peak usage within that time.

Our usage would have exceeded our 20KVA unit only a few times, and that was in the winter months. Since we did a lockout on our (unfinished) basement baseboard units (4) along with our heat pump supplemental heating coil (draws 65 amps), but used rarely, it put our normal "high usage" around 15-16 KVA during the most critical time of the year.

The maximum KWH (according to the on-line report) shows us maxing out at 7.42 for the month of August. A sample report for this past February (mid-winter) shows 14.94. For March, it was 14.28.

A "seat of the pants" measurement shows that our winter peak load is around 75% for this previous year, but that does not account for all records (I would have to contact the electric company for detailed "spike" information) but it is within the 75-85% target I mentioned in an earlier post.

I would agree that it would be nice to have an instrument to measure KWH/Amps at the panel. However, to get a "pure" usage report, you would have to leave it in place for a year in order to cover all seasons. And truly, you should have it in place a few years to measure short term flux (i.e. "Polar Vortex") in usage. For a total electric home (as is the case in our area) the variance can be great. For those that have NG service, it would be less of a variance over the year.

Estimation is not a perfect science, but you can get close enough if you have access to usage records from your electric supplier/company.

- Ron
User avatar
htdrag11
Posts: 1261
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:22 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by htdrag11 »

Kohler, 14k, gas; I am cheap

It was about $7k from a small outfit.

Wife is very happy so it worths every penny.
Topic Author
airahcaz
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by airahcaz »

Install Generac model 6551 22KW standby generator with Automatic transfer switch.

This includes the following

1. Permit Cost

2. Plumbing

Run 1'/4" Gas piping from Gas Meter to unit

3. Install Concrete Pad for Generator to sit on

4. Install Generac 200Amp Service Rated Transfer Switch

5. Run 2" Conduit from transfer switch to Generator. Run Generac Composite Cable in Conduit to unit and connect.

6. Run and Test Unit.

$10,800
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)
bhsince87
Posts: 2914
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by bhsince87 »

I've got a 5kW DeWalt portable gasoline that is our main backup generator. Got a 30 Amp transfer switch that it plugs into. I can have it up and running in about 5 minutes. I can run the essentials (well pump, refridge, freezer, oil burner), but need to switch those things in and out. I can run one AC window unit with it. But I sometimes feel like Scotty form Star Trek, trying to figure out where to run the limited juice I have....

I also have quite a few batteries that we use for night time use. I keep them topped up all the time, and they can be charged from generators or solar. My wife uses a CPAP machine, so we need to keep that running. I try to keep enouh battery back up for 3 nights for that. Plus 3 days of cable modem, pc and cell phone. Also have a couple hundred AA's and a bunch of LED lights. I don't run generators at night for several reasons.

I still have my first generator, a 3.5kW Coleman, which is about 25 years old. I use it in the winter sometimes to run the water heater, and keep it as a backup for other times. I also have a little 2kW Honda for travel use, and as a back up/backup.

I've probably got less than $3k total in batteries, generators, and transfer switch

I'm currently in the market for an 8kW diesel, which would become our main generator. Gasoline is sort of a pain, because it needs to be fresh, and it's more dangerous to store. Plus I have a 500 gallon oil tank which I could use to run a diesel generator if need be. 8kW would allow me to run most everything in the house at once without playing Scotty, although it would require a new transfer switch install.

Nat gas is not an option here. I could make propane work, but diesel makes more sense for me.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
Valuethinker
Posts: 48944
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Valuethinker »

bhsince87 wrote: I'm currently in the market for an 8kW diesel, which would become our main generator. Gasoline is sort of a pain, because it needs to be fresh, and it's more dangerous to store. Plus I have a 500 gallon oil tank which I could use to run a diesel generator if need be. 8kW would allow me to run most everything in the house at once without playing Scotty, although it would require a new transfer switch install.

Nat gas is not an option here. I could make propane work, but diesel makes more sense for me.
Some questions out of total ignorance:

- is the home heating oil equivalent to diesel? Ie clean enough for a modern diesel engine?

- in the UK we have 'red' diesel which is allowed to farmers to run farm vehicles. There's a dye in it, so if you ever put it in your gas tank for a diesel car, they will know, and they will fine you based on their estimate of how much you used over time

Home heating oil (and I presume red diesel) don't attract tax here in the UK (5% VAT only). Whereas gasoline and road vehicle diesel are heavily taxed (including 20% VAT probably about half of retail price per gallon of say $8.45/ US gal = £1.39 x 3.8 g/l x $1.66 $/£).

So would you be OK if you did this? Both from a practical point of view (quality of fuel) and from a legal/ tax point of view.
User avatar
magellan
Posts: 3489
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:12 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by magellan »

bhsince87 wrote:I've got a 5kW DeWalt portable gasoline that is our main backup generator. Got a 30 Amp transfer switch that it plugs into. I can have it up and running in about 5 minutes. I can run the essentials (well pump, refridge, freezer, oil burner), but need to switch those things in and out. I can run one AC window unit with it. But I sometimes feel like Scotty form Star Trek, trying to figure out where to run the limited juice I have...
I'm surprised you have to switch things in and out with this setup. I have a 5500kW unit (8500 peak) and I run the well pump (1200w), fridge (400w), extra freezer (300w), oil burner (500w), and most of the lights in the house (CFL or LED) without any concern at all. I have a whole-house energy monitor and without large loads like the dryer, oven, or central air running, I've never seen the load above 3-5kW.

The only things I'm careful about are the microwave, coffee maker, hair dryer, and a 10k btu portable a/c unit. I only run one of those at the same time. Other than those three devices, we don't worry about rationing power. My manual transfer switch has 16 circuits and runs most of the house, exception for the central air, hot tub, oven (gas cooktop doesn't need power), dryer, and dishwasher.

One suggestion is to check to see if your 120v loads are properly balanced between the two sides of the generator's 240 volt output. When it comes to 120v circuits, a 5kW generator can actually handle 2 x 2.5 kW of load. When wiring the transfer switch, you have to balance the 120v loads or you could end up with 4k of load on one side and 1k of load on the other side. This adds up to 5k, but the side with 4k on it will be overloaded, while the side with 1k has extra capacity.

Jim
gd
Posts: 1638
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:35 am
Location: MA, USA

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by gd »

My new neighbor has installed what appears to be one of the standard Home Depot natural gas models, probably Generac. It is as loud as a lawn mower, and there is no practical way to reduce the noise level. His costs will include my hotel bill when he lets it run all night.
Topic Author
airahcaz
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by airahcaz »

gd wrote:My new neighbor has installed what appears to be one of the standard Home Depot natural gas models, probably Generac. It is as loud as a lawn mower, and there is no practical way to reduce the noise level. His costs will include my hotel bill when he lets it run all night.
Won't your hotel possibly be his home in the event of a major storm and extended loss of power?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)
pochax
Posts: 1380
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:40 am

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by pochax »

airahcaz wrote:Install Generac model 6551 22KW standby generator with Automatic transfer switch.

This includes the following

1. Permit Cost

2. Plumbing

Run 1'/4" Gas piping from Gas Meter to unit

3. Install Concrete Pad for Generator to sit on

4. Install Generac 200Amp Service Rated Transfer Switch

5. Run 2" Conduit from transfer switch to Generator. Run Generac Composite Cable in Conduit to unit and connect.

6. Run and Test Unit.

$10,800
Almost exactly the same except got a 20kW Generac and this was 2 years ago. Came in just under $10k.
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

gd wrote:My new neighbor has installed what appears to be one of the standard Home Depot natural gas models, probably Generac. It is as loud as a lawn mower, and there is no practical way to reduce the noise level. His costs will include my hotel bill when he lets it run all night.
Regardless brand (i.e. Kohler/Generac), they will generate noise while running.

A 20KVA Kohler runs at 69 DBA while running a full load (not test); a Generac runs at 67 DBA - really not a noticeable difference depending on brand on the same output.

I used to hear my neighbors unit during outages. Now, since I have my own, I don't hear his at all :mrgreen: ...

And yes, they do have outlets that you can plug into on the side of the unit. If you can come up with an agreement to run a couple of extension cords to your house during an extreme outage, I'm sure the unit noise won't bother you at all :beer ...

I've mentioned that my Generac puts out less "noise" than my 5500 B & S portable unit. I'm sure my neighbors would rather hear my larger unit, than my smaller one. Of course, since most of them have an automatic backup unit (at least six in a one block area), nobody really complains.

You can get a water cooled unit that operates at a much less noise level since they run at 1800 vs 3600 RPM, at 2x the price, along with the cost of extra fuel and the maintenance issues of having a radiator and water pump. But then you won't have a load managed system (through load shedding); you will be paying the price.

- Ron
Last edited by Ron on Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16767
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by ResearchMed »

airahcaz wrote:
gd wrote:My new neighbor has installed what appears to be one of the standard Home Depot natural gas models, probably Generac. It is as loud as a lawn mower, and there is no practical way to reduce the noise level. His costs will include my hotel bill when he lets it run all night.
Won't your hotel possibly be his home in the event of a major storm and extended loss of power?
We've joked that our neighbors (who all have larger, more expensive homes, but who don't appear to have generators - yet) will suddenly become our new BFF's if there is an extended outage, especially if it's in the winter :wink:

[One of them put in a swimming pool and never invited us, not even to the big "pool-warming party". Hmmm... They were new in the neighborhood, but had already come to a party at our home... :twisted: ]

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
Topic Author
airahcaz
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by airahcaz »

ResearchMed wrote:
airahcaz wrote:
gd wrote:My new neighbor has installed what appears to be one of the standard Home Depot natural gas models, probably Generac. It is as loud as a lawn mower, and there is no practical way to reduce the noise level. His costs will include my hotel bill when he lets it run all night.
Won't your hotel possibly be his home in the event of a major storm and extended loss of power?
We've joked that our neighbors (who all have larger, more expensive homes, but who don't appear to have generators - yet) will suddenly become our new BFF's if there is an extended outage, especially if it's in the winter :wink:

[One of them put in a swimming pool and never invited us, not even to the big "pool-warming party". Hmmm... They were new in the neighborhood, but had already come to a party at our home... :twisted: ]

RM
Well, we know it will be running during an outage (rare), but it also has a schedule to automatically run once a week to keep it operational and set to go? Believe there was a video on YouTube where the person had it scheduled to run a few minutes every Monday at 2:00 pm.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

airahcaz wrote:Well, we know it will be running during an outage (rare), but it also has a schedule to automatically run once a week? Believe there was a video on YouTube where the person had it scheduled to run a few minutes every Monday at 2:00 pm.
They all have their "exercise schedule", run for about 10 minutes every week. It is scheduled automatically (via the unit controller or remote monitor) and is designed to ensure that everything will start, along with lubricating the engine seals. How many people have a portable and don't start it for years on end? When they really need it, it won't start. You can schedule it for any day/time you wish (even 3 a.m. on a Monday morning :twisted: ); ours is set for every Monday at 8 a.m. - after those that go to work have left, and early enough in the day/week that if there is a problem found the service folks can check it out.

You can run the cycle manually if you wish, but it's just easier to let it do its own thing. If anything is abnormal, you will get an alert (yellow/red light on the unit, or via message on the remote monitor - be it wireless or net, regardless of brand).

We were traveling in China late last year (thus the picture). When I came home, one of the things I checked on was the remote monitor on my desk. The log showed the four weekly start/run cycles (with no problems found) and also that no outages occurred during the period. If there was something abnormal with the unit, it would have logged it for me. Depending on brand/monitor, you can even have it contact your service company (for example: http://www.generac.com/all-products/par ... obile-link ).

- Ron
Topic Author
airahcaz
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by airahcaz »

Ron wrote:
airahcaz wrote:Well, we know it will be running during an outage (rare), but it also has a schedule to automatically run once a week? Believe there was a video on YouTube where the person had it scheduled to run a few minutes every Monday at 2:00 pm.
They all have their "exercise schedule", run for about 10 minutes every week. It is scheduled automatically (via the unit controller or remote monitor) and is designed to ensure that everything will start, along with lubricating the engine seals. How many people have a portable and don't start it for years on end? When they really need it, it won't start. You can schedule it for any day/time you wish (even 3 a.m. on a Monday morning :twisted: ); ours is set for every Monday at 8 a.m. - after those that go to work have left, and early enough in the day/week that if there is a problem found the service folks can check it out.

You can run the cycle manually if you wish, but it's just easier to let it do its own thing. If anything is abnormal, you will get an alert (yellow/red light on the unit, or via message on the remote monitor - be it wireless or net, regardless of brand).

We were traveling in China late last year (thus the picture). When I came home, one of the things I checked on was the remote monitor on my desk. The log showed the four weekly start/run cycles (with no problems found) and also that no outages occurred during the period. If there was something abnormal with the unit, it would have logged it for me. Depending on brand/monitor, you can even have it contact your service company (for example: http://www.generac.com/all-products/par ... obile-link ).


- Ron
geez to the boglehead irony of that which I have italicized:
Each new Mobile Link (MSRP $279) device comes with a one year cellular subscription. After the first year, subscription options vary from $12.50/month to $99/year plans. Plans automatically renew using the same payment method and plan selection for your convenience.

Cellular technology was chosen as the communication method for Mobile Link because it provides broad coverage nationwide, does not require complicated set-up or maintenance, and typically remains active during major weather events (thanks to back-up generators on cell towers). These cellular benefits, combined with the low cost of the cellular plans offered, allows Mobile Link to offer a reliable mobile monitoring solution at a great value!
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by Ron »

airahcaz wrote:geez to the boglehead irony of that which I have italicized:<snip...>
That's why I don't have it (I have a wireless remote w/history log, which costs nothing in use charges).

I'm not frugal - I'm just cheap :greedy ...

However, there are those who travel and leave their home unattended for a period of time; they might find value in it, even if to notify somebody to check on the house if they are on an extended trip.

We don't need it; we have a house-sitter here when we travel.

BTW, they came out with this mobile access over a year ago, and supplied it as a standard product to all genset's 20KVA and below. It has not been well received and they've taken it off the genset as a standard feature and replaced it with a simple (light) wireless monitor that you can stick on your fridge (magnetic). For most folks, that's all they need.

- Ron
bhsince87
Posts: 2914
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by bhsince87 »

magellan wrote:
bhsince87 wrote:I've got a 5kW DeWalt portable gasoline that is our main backup generator. Got a 30 Amp transfer switch that it plugs into. I can have it up and running in about 5 minutes. I can run the essentials (well pump, refridge, freezer, oil burner), but need to switch those things in and out. I can run one AC window unit with it. But I sometimes feel like Scotty form Star Trek, trying to figure out where to run the limited juice I have...
I'm surprised you have to switch things in and out with this setup. I have a 5500kW unit (8500 peak) and I run the well pump (1200w), fridge (400w), extra freezer (300w), oil burner (500w), and most of the lights in the house (CFL or LED) without any concern at all. I have a whole-house energy monitor and without large loads like the dryer, oven, or central air running, I've never seen the load above 3-5kW.

The only things I'm careful about are the microwave, coffee maker, hair dryer, and a 10k btu portable a/c unit. I only run one of those at the same time. Other than those three devices, we don't worry about rationing power. My manual transfer switch has 16 circuits and runs most of the house, exception for the central air, hot tub, oven (gas cooktop doesn't need power), dryer, and dishwasher.

One suggestion is to check to see if your 120v loads are properly balanced between the two sides of the generator's 240 volt output. When it comes to 120v circuits, a 5kW generator can actually handle 2 x 2.5 kW of load. When wiring the transfer switch, you have to balance the 120v loads or you could end up with 4k of load on one side and 1k of load on the other side. This adds up to 5k, but the side with 4k on it will be overloaded, while the side with 1k has extra capacity.

Jim
I'm mostly concerned about starting surge (plus I'm also a bit skeptical of the ratings). I should also warn you that I'm an electrical engineer, so I'm probably a bit overly conservative of this. But the starting surge can be 4-5X the running power requirement. And your meter probably won't notice it because of it's transient nature.

I burned out a freezer motor a couple years ago when I got lazy and let the freezer, fridge, and oil burner come on all at once. I'm especially protective of my well pump, since it's at the end of 350 feet of wire, and is very expensive to repair/replace.

So most of my switching is to ensure that I don't have multiple motors starting at once.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
bhsince87
Posts: 2914
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by bhsince87 »

Valuethinker wrote:
bhsince87 wrote: I'm currently in the market for an 8kW diesel, which would become our main generator. Gasoline is sort of a pain, because it needs to be fresh, and it's more dangerous to store. Plus I have a 500 gallon oil tank which I could use to run a diesel generator if need be. 8kW would allow me to run most everything in the house at once without playing Scotty, although it would require a new transfer switch install.

Nat gas is not an option here. I could make propane work, but diesel makes more sense for me.
Some questions out of total ignorance:

- is the home heating oil equivalent to diesel? Ie clean enough for a modern diesel engine?

- in the UK we have 'red' diesel which is allowed to farmers to run farm vehicles. There's a dye in it, so if you ever put it in your gas tank for a diesel car, they will know, and they will fine you based on their estimate of how much you used over time

Home heating oil (and I presume red diesel) don't attract tax here in the UK (5% VAT only). Whereas gasoline and road vehicle diesel are heavily taxed (including 20% VAT probably about half of retail price per gallon of say $8.45/ US gal = £1.39 x 3.8 g/l x $1.66 $/£).

So would you be OK if you did this? Both from a practical point of view (quality of fuel) and from a legal/ tax point of view.
It sounds like we have a similar set of regulations here in the US (at least for now). Our heating oil (grade #2) is also dyed red, and it is also sold to farmers or anyone else for off road use. I have a skidsteer loader (Bobcat), and I run it with the "heating oil". The same people who deliver our home heating oil also deliver it to farmers.

And yes, the dye is all about highway taxes. But for most purposes, the fuels can be used interchangeably. However, there has been a recent trend toward something called "low sulfur diesel", and some cars require it instead of the standard stuff. I think that's more of an emissions thing than a performance issue. But even it were legal, I don't think I'd run red heating oil in a modern automobile diesel.....

But just a few months ago, a local trucking firm was caught doing just that with their fleet. So apparently it can still work.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by dratkinson »

Valuethinker wrote:...
Some questions out of total ignorance:

- is the home heating oil equivalent to diesel? Ie clean enough for a modern diesel engine?
...
So would you be OK if you did this? Both from a practical point of view (quality of fuel) and from a legal/ tax point of view.
Searched "red diesel generator use" and "Yes" appears to be the answer in both cases: practical and legal.

See: http://www.crownoiluk.com/products/red- ... suppliers/
Red diesel suppliers: UK, Midlands wrote:Red diesel (gas oil) is minimally taxed and its use is confined to off road, untaxed vehicles such as tractors/agricultural machinery, earth moving machinery, piling and drilling equipment, cranes etc. and static diesel powered machinery such as generators, pumps and industrial heating/cooling equipment. Red diesel use is widespread throughout the construction, civil engineering, agricultural, marine, leisure and commercial industries.

Red diesel can also be used as heating fuel for domestic boilers.
In the back of my mind I seem to recall early reports of diesel troubles blamed on the red dye fouling injectors. Reports could have been wrong, or maybe an earlier dye formulation, or maybe a periodic injector cleaner was required. Don't know. Might want to double-check that just as a CYA.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by dratkinson »

Home: hot water--NG standing pilot storage tank type; heating--NG furnace; cooling--swamp cooler; electric range. An NG range, backup heat, and generator connection are on my list of modifications after I upgrade my NG service.

I have two portable units which connect through a manual 200A whole-house transfer switch (~$1500 installed). Both can supply essential electrical needs.

First is '70s vintage B&S-powered 5KW Pincor unit (~$300) that is bullet-proof simple (rope start, short-plug stop, no AVR, no oil-level monitor) and LOUD. Stored until needed: never needed to flash field.

Second is Onan 6.5KW NH RV unit (~$1000) mounted on homemade heavy-duty (cart+gen+fuel+battery: ~650 lbs), easy-moving, narrow cart to navigate 30" garage door. Quiet 1800 rpm unit.

I monitor load via plug-in line voltage monitors and knowledge of appliance loads/generator capacity. Furnace blower and refrigerator are only auto-start devices.

But as I get older, a quiet automated NG system sounds better and better. May need to start looking for an old Onan system control panel to automate what I've got.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
User avatar
N1CKV
Posts: 864
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:18 am

Re: Which generator do you have?

Post by N1CKV »

I have a 4000w Champion. I have an outlet to connect it to my panel, with the proper Interlock to disconnect from the grid.
I must turn off all 240v items, as the generator is 120v, but I can run every 120v item in my house plus a window unit with no problems. The fridge, a few lights, window unit and a ceiling fan and I'm perfectly comfortable.
Post Reply