How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Post Reply
User avatar
Topic Author
Kulak
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Weimar America

How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Kulak »

I have a library fine for a book I know I returned several years ago. The library didn't attempt to contact me about it, although they had a phone number and email address for me, before sending it to collections. So the first I heard of it was from a collector. "Can you prove you returned the book?" "They don't give you a receipt." Ended up talking to the library and they refused to stop the collection action. (Also wouldn't budge on the exorbitant replacement charges: 10x what it sells for on Amazon, Alibris and similar sites in excellent condition.) So basically I stalled the collector ("Hang on, I'm still trying to get in touch with the right person at the library's circulation desk..." etc.) until he went away.

More than a year later, a second collection agency (or perhaps it was law firm) started contacting me about it. Ultimately I had a conversation that went something like:
THEM: So you're disputing the validity of this debt?
ME: Yes!
THEM: OK. We'll note that in the file.
ME: So you go back to the creditor (library) now? What happens if they insist the debt is valid?
THEM: Well, if you say it's invalid, then nothing happens.
ME: So the collection action won't continue? This won't end up on my credit reports?
THEM: No, not if it's not a valid debt.
ME: Great, thanks. [This was puzzling, but whatever.]

So another few months pass and I start receiving calls from an 800 number 4+ times a day. They never leave voicemail, and if I answer, the call immediately drops. "Hello?" [CLICK] Over and over like this, many times a day, never hearing a human voice. I finally redialed the caller ID number, and lo and behold the auto-attendant message says, "Please be advised: this is an attempt to collect a debt, and any info..." A human answers.
ME: This number has been calling me and hanging up 4 times a day for the last week.
THEM: What's your phone number?
ME: [phone number].
THEM: Is your name ___________?
ME: What is this about? Who are you?
THEM: I can't tell you anything until you verify your identity.
ME: I'm not identifying shit. All I know is that I've been getting harassing calls from this number for a week. Stop calling me. Take me off your telemarketing list or whatever. [CLICK]

Disingenuous, but of course I don't know that the library fine is what collector #3 called about. Given their odd strategy of auto-dialing and hanging up, I don't see how they can claim they tried to collect a (particular) debt (from me in particular).

Anyway, assuming it is, what recourse do I have? This is stressing me out, feeling like this will follow me around forever. What happens with a collection action that ultimately comes down to your word vs the creditor's?
Depriving ourselves to boost our 40-year success probability much beyond 80% is a fool’s errand, since all you are doing is increasing the probability of failure for [non-financial] reasons. --wbern
User avatar
N1CKV
Posts: 864
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:18 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by N1CKV »

Have you gone to the library and checked the shelf to see if the book is there?
User avatar
Topic Author
Kulak
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Weimar America

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Kulak »

No, but the library circulation staff did when I talked to them years ago. I know I don't have it; not only do I remember the trip to return it, but I ransacked my place looking for it just in case, and have even moved (handling every single item I own) since then.
Depriving ourselves to boost our 40-year success probability much beyond 80% is a fool’s errand, since all you are doing is increasing the probability of failure for [non-financial] reasons. --wbern
Gropes & Ray
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Gropes & Ray »

There is a Fair Debt Collections Practice Act that not only prohibits harassing behavior by debt collections people, but allows you to collect something around $1,500 from them if they violate the law. You can also send them a written request to stop being contacted, and demand proof of the debt. The reason they call and harass is probably because they could never actually prove that you owe any money.
livesoft
Posts: 86075
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by livesoft »

I think phone calls don't do it as far as the Fair Credit Reporting Act goes. You have to send written requests probably return-receipt requested or whatever it is.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28859
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Watty »

See the "drop dead letter" here;

http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-h ... ors/nPgJX/


Basically under the "fair debt collections practice act" (Goggle this) if you send them the right type of letter they can't contact you again.

You can also ask for a verification of debt using the right words and that will stop many collections since they have no backup other than you name on a list.

If it is a valid debt they can still take you to court.
User avatar
Topic Author
Kulak
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Weimar America

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Kulak »

Watty wrote:If it is a valid debt they can still take you to court.
This is really my question. If they did, how would the judge rule?
Depriving ourselves to boost our 40-year success probability much beyond 80% is a fool’s errand, since all you are doing is increasing the probability of failure for [non-financial] reasons. --wbern
crake
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:12 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by crake »

People telling you send a letter with a return receipt are correct. Here is an example http://nedap.org/resources/documents/Di ... icForm.pdf

I had a similar issue with Comcast last year. I received a collection letter for a debt I definitely did not owe. They did not once try to contact me by any means about this debt. I do not understand this practice and am surprised a library would act in the same fashion. If somebody owes me money at the very least I would call them up first and ask them to pay it prior to submitting the debt to collections...

Is the book "The tropic of Cancer" by any chance? If so I would think very hard about whether or not you returned it lest you want to incur the wrath of Mr. Bookman.
Gropes & Ray
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Gropes & Ray »

Kulak wrote:
Watty wrote:If it is a valid debt they can still take you to court.
This is really my question. If they did, how would the judge rule?
The burden of proof is always on the accuser, so they would have to prove that you borrowed the book and probably that you didn't return it. You would also get to testify that you did return it.

Even if the judge agrees with them, they have to prove damages, which is the amount of harm they suffered. In this case, you say they are claiming much more than the value of the book, but a court might not see it that way. If you lost the liability portion of the hearing, a judge could rule that you owe the value of the book, possibly with some interest and court costs.

Odds are no one would sue because going to court would cost more than the value of a book.
User avatar
FelixTheCat
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:39 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by FelixTheCat »

Have you tried putting your phone on Nomorobo? https://www.nomorobo.com/
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.
mtnlover
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:50 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by mtnlover »

I betcha the library sold the debt to a collector for pennies on the dollar and the library wrote it off. In my state the debt has to be written off after 7 years. We had a similar situation involving work that a contractor never finished and DH ( a lawyer who specializes in creditors rights) wrote back that the bill was in dispute and we never heard from collection agent again. He did say that if you make even a tiny payment on the alleged debt, the 7 year clock starts over. It pays to know someone in the business!
User avatar
retiredjg
Posts: 54082
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:56 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by retiredjg »

Kulak wrote:THEM: What's your phone number?
ME: [phone number].
THEM: Is your name ___________?
ME: What is this about? Who are you?
THEM: I can't tell you anything until you verify your identity.
ME: I'm not identifying shit. All I know is that I've been getting harassing calls from this number for a week. Stop calling me. Take me off your telemarketing list or whatever. [CLICK]
So is it your name?

I got calls very similar to this about 2 years ago. They were looking for somebody else. Once I explained that someone else wasn't at my phone number, it was over. They didn't call me again.

On the other hand, if it is you they are looking for, shouldn't you go ahead and get involved and inform them the debt is not valid?
Jeanz
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Jeanz »

When I worked as a public librarian long ago the library worried about adverse publicity because it depended on public funding.
island
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by island »

Have you tried speaking to someone with authority at the library now and advising them you're being harassed by a collection agency for a book you do not have? I'd be ticked at the library and start hounding them to call off the collection agency. Then put it in writing to both sides.
Can't believe all this over a missing library book from years ago! :oops: Good luck.
User avatar
joe8d
Posts: 4545
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:27 pm
Location: Buffalo,NY

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by joe8d »

island wrote:Have you tried speaking to someone with authority at the library now and advising them you're being harassed by a collection agency for a book you do not have? I'd be ticked at the library and start hounding them to call off the collection agency. Then put it in writing to both sides.
Can't believe all this over a missing library book from years ago! :oops: Good luck.
Yes.Just go into the Library and ask to see the branch manager.Explain your situation ( be polite ) and would not be suprised if situation was resolved as a "Claims Returned" w/no charge or at worst for a fraction of amount owed.I work in the library and have directed many patrons in the same situation to do the same with good results
All the Best, | Joe
carolinaman
Posts: 5463
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:56 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by carolinaman »

joe8d wrote:
island wrote:Have you tried speaking to someone with authority at the library now and advising them you're being harassed by a collection agency for a book you do not have? I'd be ticked at the library and start hounding them to call off the collection agency. Then put it in writing to both sides.
Can't believe all this over a missing library book from years ago! :oops: Good luck.
Yes.Just go into the Library and ask to see the branch manager.Explain your situation ( be polite ) and would not be suprised if situation was resolved as a "Claims Returned" w/no charge or at worst for a fraction of amount owed.I work in the library and have directed many patrons in the same situation to do the same with good results
Good advice. I am surprised that a public library would turn an unreturned book over to a collection agency in the first place. If the branch manager does not help you, I would contact the library board and complain about this, explaining your situation. That may get the results you need.
User avatar
retiredjg
Posts: 54082
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:56 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by retiredjg »

Once something has been turned over to a collection agency, can it just be taken back?
Lafder
Posts: 4127
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:56 pm
Location: East of the Rio Grande

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Lafder »

How much would you have owed the library if you had not turned the book in?

I am surprised it is worth a collection agency's time.

This makes me agree with other posters that wondered if it was not about the library book.

When I moved, I started getting phone calls for the name of the person who moved into my old house. Somehow the collection agency got info about their name at my old address, and they also were able to find my phone number affiliated with that address. So they started calling my number, even though it was now the phone number at my new house. When they asked for (name here) I said "That is really strange, I know who that person is but I have had this phone number for 12 years and they have never had this number." So they were the ones who told me how the number probably came up. I did ask them to please note in the file that this is not that person's number and please do not call again. They did stop calling.

Another time someone had used me as a reference for a payday loan, Quick cash type of loan and I started getting calls asking for (so and so) after they did not pay back. I was never told I was used as a reference, or asked before the $ was given out. That place kept calling! I was not a cosignor, just a "reference" is what the borrower told me when I called them about the calls. So I started telling the callers, at the suggestion of the borrower "I know (so and so) put me down as a reference, you should have called me BEFORE you lent him the money I would have told you he does not have any money and he never will pay you back. So please stop calling me or I will report you for harassment." Actually, it was fun to tell them that! They called a handful of more times. Actually, I believe it was several different of these loan places so I got to use that line more times. Interestingly, when he applied for a home loan several years later, this debt which was about 10k between the several places, did not even show up on his credit report!

lafder
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

I had a library send me a letter once that I had not returned a book. It was some book I would never have taken out, like How to Hunt Deer or something. So at least I knew immediately I didn't have a lost library book lurking in the house.

I asked them how this could happen, and they said an error in their library card reading thing, where it did not pick up the card of the person following me in the checkout line and so it put his or her books on my card.

Fortunately they found the book on their shelves.

I too am surprised that a library would do this, but perhaps they just got p*ssed off at the number of books going missing vs. the cost of individual books. Not returning a library book is theft, after all, and it's a nuisance because they probably have to order a new copy if there are people queued up for it.
User avatar
midareff
Posts: 7711
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Biscayne Bay, South Florida

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by midareff »

N1CKV wrote:Have you gone to the library and checked the shelf to see if the book is there?

After all this time and trouble and you have not checked to see if the book is at the library or has been loaned out again? REALLY? REALLY?

Next is the drop dead letter and block the number in your cell but all of these things will eventually wind up reflecting somewhere, like your credit score or record and bite you when you need your record the most. If you are going to get the library straightened out it seems you need to go there and talk to the head librarian (manager) or library system director.
JohnF
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:29 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by JohnF »

In my experience collection calls stop in time if you don’t pick them up (answering machine).
User avatar
Topic Author
Kulak
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Weimar America

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Kulak »

It's a college library FWIW. When the first collector called me, I went back and forth with the library manager, was polite but insisted that I'd returned it and that the replacement charge was many times the fair value of the book, but she wouldn't budge. Wouldn't write it off, or settle for less than the bill, or let me buy them a replacement copy.
Depriving ourselves to boost our 40-year success probability much beyond 80% is a fool’s errand, since all you are doing is increasing the probability of failure for [non-financial] reasons. --wbern
placeholder
Posts: 8421
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by placeholder »

midareff wrote:After all this time and trouble and you have not checked to see if the book is at the library or has been loaned out again?
This seems like a waste of time as the library might have replaced the book by now so finding it there or not there would tell the OP nothing.
User avatar
Dutch
Posts: 1277
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:12 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Dutch »

When you dispute the validity of a debt, you always have to do so in writing with the collection agency.

Phone conversations mean nothing, unless used against you. That's why you never engage a collection agency over the phone.
User avatar
midareff
Posts: 7711
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Biscayne Bay, South Florida

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by midareff »

Kulak wrote:It's a college library FWIW. When the first collector called me, I went back and forth with the library manager, was polite but insisted that I'd returned it and that the replacement charge was many times the fair value of the book, but she wouldn't budge. Wouldn't write it off, or settle for less than the bill, or let me buy them a replacement copy.

Even library manager's have a boss.
fposte
Posts: 2327
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:32 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by fposte »

placeholder wrote:
midareff wrote:After all this time and trouble and you have not checked to see if the book is at the library or has been loaned out again?
This seems like a waste of time as the library might have replaced the book by now so finding it there or not there would tell the OP nothing.
It'll take 20 seconds to look it up online. That's less time than talking to a collection call, and edition information may answer that question right there. Additionally, Kulak should ask the library to check if it's on the shelf; they'd be able to check acquisition date as they do, and if it was returned but not checked back in (which is often what happens), that'll be more illuminating than the database.
User avatar
Topic Author
Kulak
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Weimar America

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Kulak »

fposte wrote:Additionally, Kulak should ask the library to check if it's on the shelf; they'd be able to check acquisition date as they do, and if it was returned but not checked back in (which is often what happens), that'll be more illuminating than the database.
They did this back when I talked to them the first time. If I remember right they checked both the stacks at its call # and all the "sorting" shelves. Book is definitely gone, and I definitely don't still have it.
Depriving ourselves to boost our 40-year success probability much beyond 80% is a fool’s errand, since all you are doing is increasing the probability of failure for [non-financial] reasons. --wbern
fposte
Posts: 2327
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:32 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by fposte »

Kulak wrote:
fposte wrote:Additionally, Kulak should ask the library to check if it's on the shelf; they'd be able to check acquisition date as they do, and if it was returned but not checked back in (which is often what happens), that'll be more illuminating than the database.
They did this back when I talked to them the first time. If I remember right they checked both the stacks at its call # and all the "sorting" shelves. Book is definitely gone, and I definitely don't still have it.
Okay, glad you did that, even if it didn't solve the problem. Might be worth trying again just for the heck of it, just in case it turned up since.

If they've sold the debt, though, I'm not sure the library can do much else for you now. (And thanks for reminding me--I have an unrenewable overdue book that needs to go back.) Has this appeared on your credit report yet?
Mudpuppy
Posts: 7409
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am
Location: Sunny California

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Mudpuppy »

Kulak wrote:It's a college library FWIW. When the first collector called me, I went back and forth with the library manager, was polite but insisted that I'd returned it and that the replacement charge was many times the fair value of the book, but she wouldn't budge. Wouldn't write it off, or settle for less than the bill, or let me buy them a replacement copy.
If you have any potential clout as a current/future donor (or with any current donors), contacting campus administration may lead to favorable results. Contact them with a reasonable offer, e.g. "I am certain I returned it, but I am willing to purchase another copy at a vendor of my choosing and donate it to the library to settle this matter. I already made this offer to the library manager, but she seemed unwilling to negotiate or budge".

Much as public libraries do not like bad publicity, universities do not like to scare off potential donors.
island
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by island »

retiredjg wrote:Once something has been turned over to a collection agency, can it just be taken back?
Yes. I used to frequently get magazine offers to try a number of issues for free and cancel or pay to continue after the trial. Once missed the bill and I got a collection notice. Wrote subscription was cancelled on the bill and mailed it back and that was the end of it. Did nothing to my credit record.

OP curious, how long ago was it that you checked out the book? I would never remember such a thing, but 'd think there be a statute of limitations on something so trivial. If you haven't done so just write a letter to the collections company ANd the library manager or board, tell them you returned it years ago and you told them that years ago when they last inquired and stop harassing you.
Just do it, do it today. Seems that's would be a better use of your time than worrying about how a judge might rule on such a claim.
denovo
Posts: 4808
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by denovo »

I like mudpuppy's suggestion, but in the interim, have you made sure this hasn't impacted your credit and gone on your credit report. You can get free credit reports directly from the bureaus via annualcreditreport.com. Also, through creditkarma and discover.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Calm Man
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:35 am

Re: How to stop collection for an invalid debt

Post by Calm Man »

I may have a solution. How much is the debt?
Post Reply