New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Enclave?

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NHRATA01
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by NHRATA01 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:43 am

bbrock wrote:
Additionally, does anyone have experience with fitting/using convertible car seats in the lambda platform vehicles (Acadia, Traverse, Enclave), as well as the Highlander? Eventually we will transition to convertibles, possibly notably large ones such as the Britax Marathon. So just curious how these vehicles handle these.
Boy I can't remember the specific model, but we do have a Britax of some sort and even rear-facing behind the front passenger's seat, there was plenty of room for the passenger in our Traverse. It is a very roomy SUV; also we went for the 8-passenger configuration, and the 3 kids sit in the middle row, rear is usually down for cargo. At one point we had 2 Britax plus a rear facing infant carrier and they all squeezed in. Now with one Britax and 2 booster seats for the 6 and 5 y/o's, there's a bit more room.

bbrock
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bbrock » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:32 pm

So we went test driving a couple days ago. We started later in the day so we didn't have a lot of time. We were only able to get through two of the vehicles that I wanted to drive which were the GMC Acadia and the Toyota Highlander. The Acadia was the SLT2, and the highlander was the XLE as the Limited doesn't come with a 2nd row bench. Although the SLT2 had captains chairs in the 2nd row, we could opt for a bench.

This is all besides the point, whateveer it is neither of us were really impressed with the cargo carrying capabilities of the Highlander. Pretty much it's what my Subaru outback could hold although it is just a higher roofline. My '09 Outback is able to carry 33 ft.³ to the 2nd row, whereas as the Highlander can carry about 43 ft.³ to the 2nd row. That's all got to be at the roofline as it did not appear any deeper or wider than my outback. As far as drive, yes it was very good, but just question the cargo capacity.

Acadia was nice. The volume is great on the inside, and the ride felt good. I take a hit with the MPG's, but it meets the safety and cargo space requirements. While it is the same platform, we didn't have time to get over to Chevy to drive the traverse. Will have to do another time along with the Durango.

I asked my wife about her top priorities based on my list. When I compare them, while not in the same order our top three priorities are: safety, reliability, cargo space. Cargo space was my number one whereas it was her number three. Our number four and five are the same at fuel efficiency followed by towing. The Acadia would meet the safety and cargo space, but I question its long term reliability, whereas the highlander would almost match the Acadia's safety record, has long-term reliability, but it's cargo space is in question. Will take them for another test drive.

I did some MPG analysis based on our driving (being very liberal), pricing regular gas at $3.95 per gallon, and using the overall MPG rating from CR, except for our vehicles which I know. In all examples except the one in which I mention the Honda fit, it is assumed I am keeping my 2009 Subaru outback. The Acadia or similar type platform would cost us approximately an extra $1600/yr vs. the Highander which would be an extra $600/year. The Durango would be about $1000 more per year. For fun, I looked at a Sequoia. It would be approximately an extra $1900/yr (CR showed it got 15 MPG, which I find hard to believe). Now to see if I could get a Sequioa to work, I looked at downsizing the Subaru to something like a Honda fit. In this scenario we would spend an extra $300/year. The problem with this is that I would need to find something as safe as the Subaru outback. The NHTSA ratings reveal that the Fit doesn't compare.

I have my insurance agent running some figures right now so I can compare rates.
bbrock

letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:58 pm

A few hundred in gas and insurance costs probably shouldn't be the deciding factor when exploring $40,000-$50,000 vehicles. Just my opinion. Maybe those factors could be a tiebreaker. For safety, reliability, cargo of your choices I would go Chevy traverse. Durango only if you want the towing and you dont. Highlander is not that big as you found out.

bbrock
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bbrock » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:23 pm

Hi letsgobobby. What did you ultimately decide on? I saw your other post in which you were running a thread similar to mine. Not sure if you already pulled the trigger.

Even though the Durango has just a little more space than the high lander, I am curious to test drive it though as it sounds like a good drive. Not to mention reading about amenities sounds like you get a good bang for your buck; even U.S. News & World Report thought so by ranking it a best buy for the $. It was also ranked with the Chevy traverse as a finalist for the best 3 row SUV for families.

If we went with the Chevy traverse or GMC Acadia, we would want the bench second row. This is not an option on the highest end Chevy Traversr LTZ, but it is an option on the highest end GMC Acadia Denali. But when I look at the price I don't think the Denali is worth it. I think if it was GMC, the SLT2 could work (this would be comparable to the Chevy 2LT). But, there again, I think Chevy could be good enough. I don't believe the GMC interior would be that much nicer. Yes, the GMC Acadia may be a little boxier looking whereas the traverse may be slightly more rounded, but that is irrelevant. One interesting thing though between the Chevy traverse 2LT and the GMC Acadia SLT2 is that the GMC has independent suspension where as the traverse has an H Link rear suspension. Just to compare, the Durango has an independent suspension. Personally, I think the independent suspension would give more stability if something was towed or rough roads were traveled. That is the one reason where I would feel that perhaps the GMC may be worth it. If anyone knows better than my opinion, please let me know?
bbrock

letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:37 pm

Hi,

I haven't bought yet and not sure when we will. So close to the Durango but wanted to see a report on first year reliability. Also for us this is clearly a 'want' more than a 'need' and it's hard for me to justify the dollars on what is essentially a third vehicle. But maybe by the fall.

For us the top 3 considerations, in order, are 1. Tow capacity. 2. Seating for 7. 3. Reliability. Thus the vehicles we are considering are the Durango with Hemi V8; Toyota Sequoia; used Land Cruiser; used Lexus GX460. I threw out the Land Cruiser because the third row is unserious and the ride is jostling. I'm pretty sure I'll throw out the GX for the same reasons but I haven't driven one yet. The Sequoia is great but not exciting and the mileage is horrible. I loved the Durango drive. It is built on a chassis that Daimler Chrysler shared with the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the Mercedes GL SUV so it drives like an upscale model. It's quiet, responsive, turns well, and despite the size of the vehicle it felt very in control. My only hang up is Dodge reliability. I'm not unwilling to try it, but as an exclusively Toyota and Honda owner I wanted to get that first year report.

livesoft's suggestion about a used Lexus SUV still stands. You could find a great value there if you can meet your requirements for safety and space. Since I really need towing I haven't shopped them myself so can't provide detailed comparisons.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:48 am

letsgobobby wrote: My only hang up is Dodge reliability. I'm not unwilling to try it, but as an exclusively Toyota and Honda owner I wanted to get that first year report.
Wow - this is surprising. I feel this is just accepted that you won't beat the reliability of Toyota or Honda. It seems like going with the Durango is a recipe for disappointment if you are accustomed to Japanese reliability.

I can understand the appeal of the Durango...styling and especially affordability compared to the Sequoia, but they are not even in the same league. The Sequoia is an awesome vehicle and the engine is exciting. I hope you look past the price and mpg concerns and go with the truly better truck.

Good luck.

To the op...if you aren't finding the Highlander has enough cargo capacity for you, then you will need to make a decision on going with either reliability(Highlander) or cargo room(Acadia). If you are looking to keep this vehicle for a long time, you will be cursing the day you chose the Acadia. But don't trust me, just google problems with Acadia.

K.I.S.

wallygator
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by wallygator » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:27 am

Howdy,

I looked toyota, hyundai and for the heck of it I was going to look at the Pathfinder but My mechanic told me not bring it to him if I had a problem.... I have been driving Toyota and Lexus exclusively for 30+ years and have not been disappointed. Prior to that I was a Ford Chevy guy and had nothing but bad luck. Until I have a misfire with Toyota, I am not changing.

The Highlander tows 5000 lbs. With the seats down it is really big compared to my RX330. With all 3 rows up it is a little slim in the back but don't expect to use it except a couple of times a year. I got the second row with captains chairs that recline and are very comfy. As I travel with two 90% of the time and 4 the rest. Access between the seats to the third row is very easy for kids under 15....

Take one for a ride....

Good Luck,

Wally

bbrock wrote:Wallygator, did you consider any of the lambda platforms (Acadia, Traverse, Enclave)? I'm curious what was the deciding factor for you in choosing the Highlander. Do you have a family like we do; any kids? I ask that because I'm curious on your satisfaction with the cargo capacity.

Additionally, does anyone have experience with fitting/using convertible car seats in the lambda platform vehicles (Acadia, Traverse, Enclave), as well as the Highlander? Eventually we will transition to convertibles, possibly notably large ones such as the Britax Marathon. So just curious how these vehicles handle these.

Bogglegrappler, have given too much thought to a Lexus GX460 or any Lexus for that matter. I have seen this vehicle before as a former neighbor had one, but just never really considered it. I will say that if it takes premium fuel, I can pretty much rule it out right there as I can't justify that purchase when there are other vehicles that are good enough.

RDB
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by RDB » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:05 am

I cannot comment on the vehicles you are considering. However, I think you will be surprised that the convertible car-seats actually allow for more leg room than the infant seats (Are your twins in convertible seats yet?) We have twin 13 month olds and drive a Volvo XC90, we were able to move our seats back significantly after installing convertible seats. However, from our experience, we were surprised how much having two rear-facing convertible car seats changed our views on vehicles. At this point, the only way for someone to sit in the back seat is to climb in from the front, the third row is inaccessible (even though we never used it before car seats). We will be buying an Odyssey in the next 6 months.

letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:40 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
letsgobobby wrote: My only hang up is Dodge reliability. I'm not unwilling to try it, but as an exclusively Toyota and Honda owner I wanted to get that first year report.
Wow - this is surprising. I feel this is just accepted that you won't beat the reliability of Toyota or Honda. It seems like going with the Durango is a recipe for disappointment if you are accustomed to Japanese reliability.

I can understand the appeal of the Durango...styling and especially affordability compared to the Sequoia, but they are not even in the same league. The Sequoia is an awesome vehicle and the engine is exciting. I hope you look past the price and mpg concerns and go with the truly better truck.

Good luck.

To the op...if you aren't finding the Highlander has enough cargo capacity for you, then you will need to make a decision on going with either reliability(Highlander) or cargo room(Acadia). If you are looking to keep this vehicle for a long time, you will be cursing the day you chose the Acadia. But don't trust me, just google problems with Acadia.

K.I.S.
Doge reliability has improved substantially but the Jeep Grand Cherokee has not been reliable. Overall I would accept a somewhat higher rate of repair, but not a multiple.

NHRATA01
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by NHRATA01 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:22 am

bbrock wrote: One interesting thing though between the Chevy traverse 2LT and the GMC Acadia SLT2 is that the GMC has independent suspension where as the traverse has an H Link rear suspension. Just to compare, the Durango has an independent suspension. Personally, I think the independent suspension would give more stability if something was towed or rough roads were traveled. That is the one reason where I would feel that perhaps the GMC may be worth it. If anyone knows better than my opinion, please let me know?
I don't believe that Traverse information is correct. All of the Lambda SUV's to my knowledge have always had an independent rear. Certainly our '10 AWD Traverse does, I've been under it more times than I care to admit (for routine fluid changes and brakes)! Perhaps the FWD models have a beam rear, but I highly doubt it.

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jimb_fromATL
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by jimb_fromATL » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:37 am

bbrock wrote:
Looked at the Ford Flex, but besides not really digging the styling, the towing is rated up to 4500, with or without the eco boost engine. That tow capacity is probably good enough, but I can't get past the shape. If I can't, I know the wife can't.
A few years ago when I was shopping for a wagon-like or crossover vehicle I found the Car and Driver reviewer's comment about it "... Looking as if it were assembled entirely of municipal park benches..." to be amusing. I think of it every time I see one. Back then the Ford Edge and Taurus X both appeared to be very similar to the Flex mechanically but to me a lot better looking. However, they don't have anywhere near the rated towing capacity of the Flex.

jimb

bbrock
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bbrock » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:30 pm

NHRATA01, I got my info from the car brochure I got from the dealer. I will have to research it more if all the Chevy all-wheel-drive Traverses have independent rear suspension.

Interesting regarding the Dodge, I had my insurance agent run some quotes. I would've assumed that because the Dodge had worse safety ratings per the NHTSA tests, it would cost more to insure. Surprisingly though, the insurance premium on the Dodge Citadel cost as much as the Highlander XLE. Of course we would probably be looking at the Dodge Limited model as I don't believe the Citadel's features would be worth the price if the Limited is good enough. The premium on the Durango Limited was ever so slightly cheaper then the Highlander XLE. Guess my assumption was wrong.

Want to test drive when have a chance and visualize the cargo space against the Highlander. While not as safe as the Lamda platform, could it actually be safe enough? Perhaps. Is it a risk worth taking with our "precious cargo"? I am not sure. Safety, reliability, and cargo space where our top three. Like let's go Bobby, I would like to see reliability reports for this model year.
bbrock

NHRATA01
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by NHRATA01 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:16 pm

bbrock wrote:NHRATA01, I got my info from the car brochure I got from the dealer. I will have to research it more if all the Chevy all-wheel-drive Traverses have independent rear suspension.
AWD would have to have an IRS for sure. There are basically 2 types of suspensions when the rear wheels are driven - the good ol' solid axle (think what you see at the rear of a pickup truck), or an independent rear where the axle housing is fixed to the chasis and a pair of driveshafts spin the wheels.

When the rear wheels are just along for the ride (in a front-wheel drive setup), the cheap option is to use a basic beam in the back where both wheels essentially ride on the same hunk of metal. Old minivans tended to use this, as well as lower end economy cars.

Here's a picture I just found of the underside of a FWD Traverse, at the bottom of the picture in silver are the two "wishbones" of the independent rear suspension. So that would confirm all Traverse models have an IRS.
http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/graph ... 4_1000.jpg

snowman
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by snowman » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:58 pm

bbrock wrote:Like let's go Bobby, I would like to see reliability reports for this model year.
I would be very careful with that assumption. A lot of problems will manifest themselves later in the life of the car. First year model reliability report will, unfortunately, not tell you how that new transmission will behave in years 4-5, for example. It could all work out great, but why take chances? If you really care about reliability, look at makes / models with long term history of above-average reliability record.

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ginmqi
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by ginmqi » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:18 pm

Look at hatchbacks and wagons. Subaru offers a good selection and they would save a ton in gas/insurance/maintenance/etc. than a gigantic SUV. IMO, most people overbuy their car and thus causes quite a bit of waste so at least consider a more economical way of transportation. There are certainly families with twins who cannot afford a big SUV and make due with smaller sized vehicles.

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letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:00 am

Single data point, but Car and Driver completed its 40,000 mile road test of the Ram 1500 and only item to repair was a $3 fuse. Drivers remain very impressed with comfort, performance, and reliability. Can't rule out an American car, just because it's American. I still want to see 1st year reliability on the new Durangos.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:16 am

letsgobobby wrote:Single data point, but Car and Driver completed its 40,000 mile road test of the Ram 1500 and only item to repair was a $3 fuse. Drivers remain very impressed with comfort, performance, and reliability. Can't rule out an American car, just because it's American. I still want to see 1st year reliability on the new Durangos.
Single data point is correct. I trust Consumer Reports more than Car and Driver and Consumer Reports has listed the overall verdict for the 2011 and 2012 Dodge Durango v6 as solid black(their worst rating). For the 2011 model, they give it a solid black rating for major engines problems. Also, most car makers are reliable up to 40,000 miles plus...but what about at 100,000 miles?

I couldn't care less if it is American or foreign...all I care about is that it holds up. American cars in general do not.

K.I.S.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:35 am

Forgot to mention that Consumer Reports lists the 2012 Dodge Durango v8 overall rating as solid black as well. They state the following:

"Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 36% below average" for v6 model.

"Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 13% below average" for v8 model.

K.I.S.

letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:00 am

The 2014 is a substantially different vehicle.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:13 am

letsgobobby wrote:The 2014 is a substantially different vehicle.
I think you may be confused on this point. 2014 was not a complete remodel year for the Durango. It has the same engine and drivetrain as the 2012. The 2014 has simply added a few more gadgets.

This is the same vehicle that consumer reports is referring to in their 2012 rankings.

K.I.S.

letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:29 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:The 2014 is a substantially different vehicle.
I think you may be confused on this point. 2014 was not a complete remodel year for the Durango. It has the same engine and drivetrain as the 2012. The 2014 has simply added a few more gadgets.

This is the same vehicle that consumer reports is referring to in their 2012 rankings.

K.I.S.
I'm not confused. It has a completely different transmission, which is why CR now calls it one of its best mid large SUVs.

NHRATA01
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by NHRATA01 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:47 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:Single data point, but Car and Driver completed its 40,000 mile road test of the Ram 1500 and only item to repair was a $3 fuse. Drivers remain very impressed with comfort, performance, and reliability. Can't rule out an American car, just because it's American. I still want to see 1st year reliability on the new Durangos.
Single data point is correct. I trust Consumer Reports more than Car and Driver and Consumer Reports has listed the overall verdict for the 2011 and 2012 Dodge Durango v6 as solid black(their worst rating). For the 2011 model, they give it a solid black rating for major engines problems. Also, most car makers are reliable up to 40,000 miles plus...but what about at 100,000 miles?

I couldn't care less if it is American or foreign...all I care about is that it holds up. American cars in general do not.

K.I.S.
So all those '99-'04 Honda Accord/Acura automatic transmission failures were the car holding up? Or the ongoing Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge problems? Nissan generally being mediocre and Mitsubishi continually at the bottom for over a decade? Honda/Toyota had stellar reliability in the 80s and 90s which got them the reputation. The other foreign makes undeserving-ly piggy-backed off that. They have slipped in the past 10-15 years and the domestic makes have in general closed much of the gap, as have the Korean makes.

I've had a hard time accepting consumer reports data when for years they would assign wildly varying reliability ratings to two different nameplates coming off the same manufacturing line, essentially being an identical vehicle save the badge on the grille.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:52 am

letsgobobby wrote:
Keep It Simple wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:The 2014 is a substantially different vehicle.
I think you may be confused on this point. 2014 was not a complete remodel year for the Durango. It has the same engine and drivetrain as the 2012. The 2014 has simply added a few more gadgets.

This is the same vehicle that consumer reports is referring to in their 2012 rankings.

K.I.S.
I'm not confused. It has a completely different transmission, which is why CR now calls it one of its best mid large SUVs.
A new transmission does not negate the ratings consumer reports gave it. CR rates vehicles based on 10 to 15 different points, and the new Durango was below average. This is the same Durango you are talking about...even if you feel the transmission will fix all the other issues.

I'm not trying to argue here...just trying to site data from a reliable source so you are fully aware of any decision you make and to avoid disappointment. I like the looks of the Durango and their starting price is appealing. I just wish American car manufacturers would get up to speed with the Japanese. There is ample data which shows they are not yet there.

K.I.S.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:59 am

NHRATA01 wrote: So all those '99-'04 Honda Accord/Acura automatic transmission failures were the car holding up? Or the ongoing Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge problems? Nissan generally being mediocre and Mitsubishi continually at the bottom for over a decade? Honda/Toyota had stellar reliability in the 80s and 90s which got them the reputation. The other foreign makes undeserving-ly piggy-backed off that. They have slipped in the past 10-15 years and the domestic makes have in general closed much of the gap, as have the Korean makes.

I've had a hard time accepting consumer reports data when for years they would assign wildly varying reliability ratings to two different nameplates coming off the same manufacturing line, essentially being an identical vehicle save the badge on the grille.
Thanks for chiming in NHRATA01. I do not naively believe that Honda and Toyota can never make mistakes. Of course you can cite examples of failures on their part. But one thing noone can argue is that the car market knows all. In other words, look at residual values of cars over 100,000 miles and compare the American vehicles with the Japanese vehicles. What do you find?

People pay more for a used Japanese car because they know it will last longer. Have the Japanese made mistakes...yes, but they have a well deserved reputation for reliability and the all knowing market proves it.

I wish American cars were better...I really do! I believe this is a culture thing as much as anything else.

K.I.S.

letsgobobby
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:53 pm

Keep It Simple wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:
Keep It Simple wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:The 2014 is a substantially different vehicle.
I think you may be confused on this point. 2014 was not a complete remodel year for the Durango. It has the same engine and drivetrain as the 2012. The 2014 has simply added a few more gadgets.

This is the same vehicle that consumer reports is referring to in their 2012 rankings.

K.I.S.
I'm not confused. It has a completely different transmission, which is why CR now calls it one of its best mid large SUVs.
A new transmission does not negate the ratings consumer reports gave it. CR rates vehicles based on 10 to 15 different points, and the new Durango was below average. This is the same Durango you are talking about...even if you feel the transmission will fix all the other issues.

I'm not trying to argue here...just trying to site data from a reliable source so you are fully aware of any decision you make and to avoid disappointment. I like the looks of the Durango and their starting price is appealing. I just wish American car manufacturers would get up to speed with the Japanese. There is ample data which shows they are not yet there.

K.I.S.
Not sure if you've just got an axe to grind with Dodge or you're honestly mistaken.

The '14 Durango was CR's top-rated SUV, scoring 83 points out of 100. It is described as being refined, luxurious, quiet, and capable, with the new transmission "transforming" this vehicle. The only thing holding CR back from a 'recommendation' is the unknown reliability for this new model year.

The '12 and '13 reliability data is impressive. Out of eight 'trouble spot' areas (so sixteen data points over two years), the only area NOT to receive the red circle (CR's top rating) was 'engine cooling,' which received an 'average' rating.

I am a lifelong Toyota and Honda driver and considering an American car with a certain amount of trepidation. But companies change over time, and if Dodge can prove its improvements at least with respect to this vehicle, there's no reason for me to reject it outright.

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:55 am

letsgobobby wrote: Not sure if you've just got an axe to grind with Dodge or you're honestly mistaken.

The '14 Durango was CR's top-rated SUV, scoring 83 points out of 100. It is described as being refined, luxurious, quiet, and capable, with the new transmission "transforming" this vehicle. The only thing holding CR back from a 'recommendation' is the unknown reliability for this new model year.

The '12 and '13 reliability data is impressive. Out of eight 'trouble spot' areas (so sixteen data points over two years), the only area NOT to receive the red circle (CR's top rating) was 'engine cooling,' which received an 'average' rating.

I am a lifelong Toyota and Honda driver and considering an American car with a certain amount of trepidation. But companies change over time, and if Dodge can prove its improvements at least with respect to this vehicle, there's no reason for me to reject it outright.

No Axe to grind at all. I've been reviewing cars at consumer reports for long enough to know that the first couple years of data that they put up for reliability are pretty much worthless for obvious reasons. More time is needed to determine long term reliability. I am looking at CR ratings right now and you did not mention how they list the new Durango for 2011 as an overall verdict of empty circle(average), the 2012 full black circle(Worst rating) and 2013 empty circle with the comment "Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 13% below average". I've stated before that the minimum amount of time I will look back is three years, with each year beyond that becoming more and more valuable for data on reliability. In other words, consumer reports rating the Durango "83" has little meaning...or it just means they liked the design and how the new transmission felt, but they have no data on long term reliability.

I buy American when it is the best product...foreign when it is best. I wish American vehicles were more reliable. The fact that you are a lifelong Toyota and Honda driver leads me to believe that you will be disappointed with this Durango in the long run. Now if you just like the look of the thing and don't plan to keep it for very long, or don't mind to spend the extra money on maintenance and accelerated depreciation, than that is a different story. We all have our hobbies which are not financially sensible.

By the way, you never addressed my comments on how the market knows all...and it rewards the Japanese cars with higher residual values than American vehicles in general. I'd be curious to hear your comments on how you think the market is wrong on this point.

By the way...I've owned American cars most of my life...until I just couldn't support them any longer due to reliability issues.

K.I.S.

NHRATA01
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by NHRATA01 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:07 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
NHRATA01 wrote: So all those '99-'04 Honda Accord/Acura automatic transmission failures were the car holding up? Or the ongoing Toyota 3.0 V6 sludge problems? Nissan generally being mediocre and Mitsubishi continually at the bottom for over a decade? Honda/Toyota had stellar reliability in the 80s and 90s which got them the reputation. The other foreign makes undeserving-ly piggy-backed off that. They have slipped in the past 10-15 years and the domestic makes have in general closed much of the gap, as have the Korean makes.

I've had a hard time accepting consumer reports data when for years they would assign wildly varying reliability ratings to two different nameplates coming off the same manufacturing line, essentially being an identical vehicle save the badge on the grille.
Thanks for chiming in NHRATA01. I do not naively believe that Honda and Toyota can never make mistakes. Of course you can cite examples of failures on their part. But one thing noone can argue is that the car market knows all. In other words, look at residual values of cars over 100,000 miles and compare the American vehicles with the Japanese vehicles. What do you find?

People pay more for a used Japanese car because they know it will last longer. Have the Japanese made mistakes...yes, but they have a well deserved reputation for reliability and the all knowing market proves it.

I wish American cars were better...I really do! I believe this is a culture thing as much as anything else.

K.I.S.
Reliability is only part of the residual story. There are cars with poor reliability that have great residuals (see Mini). There are desirable German make luxury cars that have horrific residual. Anyways, major issue with the American makes for years was they had far too much capacity for their market share. GM in the 90s with 20% market share was still operating like GM in the 70s with over 50% market share and 1 in 4 new cars sold being a Chevy. The other two of the big 3 were in much the same predicament. So for years they pursued a strategy to sell as many cars as possible - which meant lots and lots of fleet sales to rental companies, agencies, contractors, etc. It used to be pretty hard to ever find a foreign car on a rental lot. SO while it's great they sold tons of cars, they made little money on them since fleet margins are narrow. But the longer term impact of that was, you get a flood of used models dumped on the market as the fleets turn over. That kills the resale for all of the individual buyers who find out the $30,000 car they bought 3 years ago is now a third of that. They've all wisely dumped that strategy, GM's case as a result of the bankruptcy that lead to ditching all of the excess assets so they can now operate profitably at lower volumes. That's paid off in improving residuals on cars like the Impala, Cruze and of course the SUV's/pickups which have been historically strong.

The Japanese, or more specifically Honda/Toyota were head and shoulders ahead of all other makes for the 80s and 90s with regards to reliability. But at one point so was GM and Ford. And in these cases, success bred complacency. GM sold people absolute garbage in the 80s and still had customers lining up because they could ride on reputation. Toyota hasn't quite stooped that low, but they're not what they used to be, and after the "unintended acceleration" issue of a few years back their executives conceded as much. But data shows the perception of reliability is far more important that actual reliability. JD Powers has had Buick at or near the top year after year for over a decade now, but few put them in the same breath as Honda.

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/2014-V ... elease.htm

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Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:43 am

NHRATA01 wrote:The Japanese, or more specifically Honda/Toyota were head and shoulders ahead of all other makes for the 80s and 90s with regards to reliability. But at one point so was GM and Ford. And in these cases, success bred complacency. GM sold people absolute garbage in the 80s and still had customers lining up because they could ride on reputation. Toyota hasn't quite stooped that low, but they're not what they used to be, and after the "unintended acceleration" issue of a few years back their executives conceded as much. But data shows the perception of reliability is far more important that actual reliability. JD Powers has had Buick at or near the top year after year for over a decade now, but few put them in the same breath as Honda.
Thanks for the graph NHRATA01. While I do not rely on any info J.D. Power supplies, their study seems to point to what I have experienced...which is that Honda and Toyota are more reliable vehicles than the American offerings. You mention the Toyota acceleration problem, but I did not see any mention of the 50 million(can't keep track anymore) GM vehicles recalled in the last year or so. Actually, when there is a major issue with Toyota we tend to notice it more because they are more rare. With American cars they are just expected. Again, we can all zero in on a specific year model and find an exception, but I am looking at the general picture. If someone really wants to have a debate on which is more reliable, a Toyota/Honda vs a Dodge/Ford/Chevy then I will have that debate anytime and confidently know I will come out with the facts on my side that Japanese vehicles last longer and have less repairs.

I believe many people choose American vehicles because they grew up with them and there is definitely home country bias and I understand this. I wish I could buy American with confidence...but we are not there yet.

At any rate, I don't believe we will come to an agreement here. I just wanted to let the op know what my experience has been. I hope the op doesn't just take my word for it, but rather ask around other peoples' experiences and review CR and other reliable sites. I do believe residual value past 100,000 miles is a good indicator of the reliability of a vehicle.

Good Luck!

K.I.S.

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by letsgobobby » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:10 am

Many sources including Consumer Reports have spoken admirably of the improvements in American cars over the last few years. That said market perceptions evolve slowly, and it's common for those who don't keep up with the industry to continue to lump all "Japanese" manufacturers or "American" manufacturers as monolithic groups. I prefer to look at the more recent, available data on the specific models and manufacturers I am considering.

Anyway, what is an American car? The Durango is based on a global platform and chassis shared with a high-end Mercedes SUV and Jeep Grand Cherokee. Its new 8 speed transmission likewise has a global presence in a variety of vehicles. It was designed in Germany and built there exclusively, and is used in BMWs and Audis as well as many other vehicles:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission

People tend to forget that auto reliability in general has improve dramatically over the years. Even ten years ago CR wrote that American cars then (circa 2000+) were as reliable as Japanese cars had been ten years earlier (circa 1990). If an American car today is as reliable as a Japanese car was even 15 years ago, in 2000, that's a pretty reliable car. Reliability is an important part of the car ownership experience but not the only factor. In the case of the cars in the OP, there is a mid-large SUV segment which only American manufacturers fill. Looking for capable crossover SUVs that can still tow and have decent cargo space, or mid-sized truck based SUVs with legit off-road capability, leaves you pretty much square in the GM/Dodge/Ford ballroom with nary a Highlander nor a Sequoia invited to the dance. We all have our reasons for the vehicles we choose. Diminishing choices different from yours as all about 'looks' or 'price point' is kind of insulting.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:53 am

letsgobobby wrote:Anyway, what is an American car? The Durango is based on a global platform and chassis shared with a high-end Mercedes SUV and Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Now I'm more skeptical of the Dodge Durango. Have you seen the Consumer Reports reliability ratings for the Jeep Grand Cherokee???? And just to rehash, I don't mean the ratings for 2012 or2013 because there simply isn't enough data to predict anything in such a short amount of time. From 2004-2013 Consumer reports has given the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 half black circles(second to worst rating), 1 solid black(worst), and 3 blank circles(average) for overall vehicle verdict. That solid black came in 2011. Consumer reports states: "Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 89% below average". Yikes...I'd run.

I guess the only way to get a definitive answer on whether the Durango has made huge improvements is to let 4 years go by and look at some of those 100,000 plus mile Durangos.

In the mean time, I will agree to disagree.

K.I.S.

jstrange1970
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by jstrange1970 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:09 am

I did this exact same analysis for my wife's replacement vehicle and ended up with the Odyssey. I have different friends who own recent Acadia and Traverse models and while they like the vehicles, the maintenance has been an issue on both - even during the warranty period.

Have you considered an Acura MDX? They get very high marks, seat seven with kids in the back row, and the new model (though more expensive than the brands you are considering) gets good mileage and is very highly rated. I plan to pick up a 2014 early next year.

Browser
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Browser » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:31 am

Yes, it's hard to figure why in the heck the Japanese brands are still more reliable than American brands. After all, parts and manufacturing are more global in nature these days. I believe some data shows that many Japanese brands such as Honda have as high percent of component parts from North America as many American brands. And they are built in the U.S. by American workers. How is that American car manufacturers can still manage to screw things up with the same ingredients? Ponder....
We don't know where we are, or where we're going -- but we're making good time.

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bbrock » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:22 pm

Jstrange1970, I have looked at the Acura MDX, but more so just through research and experiences riding in the 3rd row of a friend's. I was not impressed trying to fit in the 3rd row, even for a short ride. And, while I like what I read about the reliability, I am not impressed with the cargo space. It is not too much more than my '09 Subaru Outback. Lastly, it needing premium fuel definitely turns me off. Livesoft got me interested in looking at used Lexus GX 460s, but while I am impressed with the towing and reliability, and even the estimated MPG for a V8, I am again turned off because it needs premium. Not to mention, I anticipate the 3rd row to be just as impractical as the Acura MDX.

Letsgobobby and Keep It Simple, tx for the great posts! I have picked up so much from both of you. Out of curiosity, do either of you use the car buying report from US News and World Report? In addition to CR, I have been referring to it as it easily lists all the interior specs for me to compare. One 3 row crossover review I just recently learned of was by Autoguide:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014 ... rento.html

While I take what CR and US News & World Report recommend with caution, there does seem to be some merit to their reports. US News & World Report and Autoguide both rate the Hyundai Santa Fe high, but I will not be looking at that as the cargo space is only slightly better than the Acura MDX, and I have already stated my reasons against the Acura. I find it interesting that both US News, Autoguide, and CR rate the Dodge as high as it is, even though of its changes as stated by Letsgobobby. While Dodge's may have gotten more reliable over the years, my gut is telling me the Dodge could be problems. Right now, we have 2 reliable vehicles with a '09 Subaru Outback and a '04 Honda CRV, which would be replaced. Besides a few small things, they really have not had major issues, which has been nice. Sure, now the CRV is showing its age and mileage with a cracked AC block, which has leaked out the freon and of course it had to happen in the hot summer, but perhaps that is just wear and tear; part of the impetus to look at replacing the CRV sooner than later.

As I have stated before, I still need to test drive the Durango, and again the Toyota. And, just sit in the Toyota and analyze it and the space. Even though it got recommendations, I am skeptical on the Traverse/Acadia based on the brand's history and reliability. While I think I could just deal with any increased maintenance, I know I will be cursing it and myself if it manifests that way. Therefore, I keep going back to the Highlander. The only thing holding me from the Highlander is the ?able cargo space when compared to the Durango, and the V6 Durango's power/towing. While I really liked the cargo capacity of the Traverse/Acadia, I must say it is the outlier in the ones I originally listed. Its cargo space is even more than the Tahoe or Expedition (non-XL edition). The Durango seems great, but when I compare against our 2 big requirements, safety and reliability, that goes to the Toyota Highlander.

In some ways, while not practical, I have thought that if I go the route of the Highlander and it doesn't work out over the years, I could always sell it and up-size to a Sequoia (maybe a very thoroughly inspected CPO) and downsize the Outback to balance out our family's MPG.
Last edited by bbrock on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Browser » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:30 pm

I'm waiting for the 2016 Honda Pilot. One more year. So far, none of the others has quite made the cut for different reasons. The Pilot will probably be a disappointment too, but all the contenders will then be in the ring and nothing more to wait for.
We don't know where we are, or where we're going -- but we're making good time.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:02 am

bbrock wrote: In some ways, while not practical, I have thought that if I go the route of the Highlander and it doesn't work out over the years, I could always sell it and up-size to a Sequoia (maybe a very thoroughly inspected CPO) and downsize the Outback to balance out our family's MPG.
bbrock,

I'm glad you're taking the time to do the research for this important decision. I think you will find the facts point towards where you are now leaning. The Highlander is a great vehicle...both safe and bulletproof reliability. Having said that, if it is not large enough for you, then you may end up unhappy with that purchase. You actually took the words out of my mouth with your last sentence above. I was going to suggest that you reconsider the Toyota Sequoia as an option. While pretty costly new, buying one used really brings the cost down to an affordable range, and certainly into the range of the Highlander pricing. The Sequoia is really an awesome vehicle! I have three relatives who own one and they all love it. One relative had a first production year Sequoia for years with no problems, then sold that one and replaced it and the other vehicle in the family with 2 Sequoias! The only problem any relative has ever had with the Sequoia was one of them had to take it in for a faulty rear window wiper motor but it was replaced under warranty. I highly recommend taking a test drive. I think you will fall in love with the space, the engine, and the peace of mind knowing that it is a highly safe vehicle for the family and a highly reliable vehicle also. To me, the only negative of the Sequoia is the gas mileage. You will get about 15-16 mpg on average. It takes regular 87 octane fuel so no worries there.

Please don't just take my advice on the Sequoia though...I encourage you to continue to do your due diligence and look for data you can trust. As you know, there are plenty of websites with opinions, but you really want actual data.

Please continue to keep us updated on your decision and good luck!

K.I.S.

killjoy2012
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by killjoy2012 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:57 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
Please don't just take my advice on the Sequoia though...I encourage you to continue to do your due diligence and look for data you can trust. As you know, there are plenty of websites with opinions, but you really want actual data.
I agree. One fact:

2013 Toyota Sequoia Sales: 13k
2004 Toyota Sequoia Sales: 58k

vs.

2013 GM Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Sales: 132k
2004 GM Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Sales: 334k

Question: Why, if GM sucks so bad, do they sell ~8-10x as many units as the Toyota competitive model per year, every year, for the past decade+? And why are GM fullsize SUVs widely considered to be *the* standard to beat? After all, everyone has access to the same JD Powers & CR info ('market knows all').
Answer: Because there's a lot more factors in a car purchase decision, and one's overall long term happiness, than just the perceived reliability differential and CR 'survey' numbers - style, performance, comfort, cargo & elbow room, safety, avg maint costs per repair, etc.

Personally, I wouldn't be found dead riding in a Toyota. I've walked away from car rental counters when all they had were foreign brands to fill my reservation, and I've taken taxi's in lieu of rides from business acquaintances for the same reason. But, that's just me. If you love Toyota that much, move to Japan - I hear Fukushima is a nice area (quality and reliability on display). And I laugh at people who make comments along the line of "it seems like people drive more aggressively around me after I switch from <American Brand> to <Asian Brand>". Again, none of this is going to show up in your beloved CR ratings.

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by NHRATA01 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:28 am

killjoy2012 wrote:
Keep It Simple wrote:
Please don't just take my advice on the Sequoia though...I encourage you to continue to do your due diligence and look for data you can trust. As you know, there are plenty of websites with opinions, but you really want actual data.
I agree. One fact:

2013 Toyota Sequoia Sales: 13k
2004 Toyota Sequoia Sales: 58k

vs.

2013 GM Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Sales: 132k
2004 GM Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Sales: 334k

Question: Why, if GM sucks so bad, do they sell ~8-10x as many units as the Toyota competitive model per year, every year, for the past decade+? And why are GM fullsize SUVs widely considered to be *the* standard to beat? After all, everyone has access to the same JD Powers & CR info ('market knows all').
Answer: Because there's a lot more factors in a car purchase decision, and one's overall long term happiness, than just the perceived reliability differential and CR 'survey' numbers - style, performance, comfort, cargo & elbow room, safety, avg maint costs per repair, etc.
Well a couple notes on that. For one the GM V8's get much better rated and real world mpg than the Toyota 5.7 - it's really a gas guzzler.

The other point is that domestic trucks, in comparison to the cars, are rock solid from a reliability standpoint - and for a good reason. As Bob Lutz notes in his Car Guys vs. Bean Counters books, body-on-frame trucks (ie pickups and large SUV's) have been the bread and butter of the domestic makes for decades. High volumes, high profit margins. Thus they were allocated huge sums of money and the top engineering resources at those companies, while the cars were left to languish and fall behind against the imports. And the competition stiff between GM and Ford. The way Honda and Toyota treat the Accord and Camry is the way GM and Ford treat the Silverado and F-series. Toyota and Nissan have really only competed in the full size truck/SUV market in the past decade (and consider there is really no other market on earth for these vehicles except the US so they don't have a lot of experience there). Honda doesn't even try - though the Ridgeline is nice as a light duty pickup.

That off-topic rambling aside, I don't really see the OP as needing a heavy, gas guzzling body-on-frame SUV, and a car-based CUV would be a better fit.

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bottlecap
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bottlecap » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:09 pm

Boy, Killjoy. You are really trying to earn that name, huh?

The only foreign car that I've owned was a Toyota essentially handed down to me, and quite frankly it would not die and needed no maintenance (other than a half quart of oil every 2,500 miles). Someone ran a red light and killed it, but I put my money on the better car rather than what I perceive as the better nation. Handing your hard earned money to American car companies without regard to whether they deserve it isn't doing America any favors. Quite the opposite - that's precisely what led to the rise of "imports" in this country. Not that I lament that.

JT

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:20 pm

bottlecap wrote:Boy, Killjoy. You are really trying to earn that name, huh?

The only foreign car that I've owned was a Toyota essentially handed down to me, and quite frankly it would not die and needed no maintenance (other than a half quart of oil every 2,500 miles). Someone ran a red light and killed it, but I put my money on the better car rather than what I perceive as the better nation. Handing your hard earned money to American car companies without regard to whether they deserve it isn't doing America any favors. Quite the opposite - that's precisely what led to the rise of "imports" in this country. Not that I lament that.

JT
I'd save your breathe on this one bottlecap. The joykiller has American blinders on. As Ive stated before, many people are this way about buying foreign cars regardless of if they are clearly better.

Also, sales numbers mean little if the prices of comparable vehicles aren't the same which in this case they are not. The Sequoia costs quite a bit more. Sure their msrp is close, but everyone knows Chevy routinely knocks $10,000.00 off of their $50k-60k trucks at least once a year...Toyota doesn't.

lower price equals more sales.
Domestic bias equals more sales.
Toyota equals better.

P.S. joy kill - suggesting someone move to Fukushima because they recommend a foreign car over domestic is childish and frankly no laughing matter considering what happened there.

K.I.S.

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bbrock » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:46 pm

+1 K.I.S. to your last post. And you too Bottlecap.

When I do an analysis just purely looking at fuel costs, a Sequoia and a Prius comes out ahead with a savings of $462/yr or only costing approx. $232/yr. vs. our '09 Outback and '04 CRV. Both my wife and I are commuters, so I have broken down a couple of scenarios based on CR overall MPG ratings for a Sequoia at 15 mpg and a Prius at 44 mpg, a Highlander at 20 mpg and Outback at 21 mpg, and our CRV at 23 mpg and Outback at 21 mpg (the estimates for our cars are based on what I have tracked for us). I have very liberally estimated my wife's mileage at 24k and mine at 20k. I priced gas on the higher side at $3.95/gal for regular, which is not unheard of in CA.

With my wife in the CRV and me in the Outback, our approx fuel cost would be: $7884/yr
With my wife in the Outback and me in the Highlander, our approx fuel cost would be: $8465/yr
With my wife in the Highlander and me in the Outback, our approx fuel cost would be: $8502/yr
With my wife in the Sequoia and me in the Prius, our approx fuel cost would be: $8116/yr
With my wife in the Prius and me in the Sequoia, our approx fuel cost would be: $7422/yr

I looked at the '11 Toyota Prius as a replacement for the Outback b/c it earned top safety ratings at both IIHS and Safercar.gov (which is the NHTSA's site). Looking at maintenance/upkeep costs, while I could expect to pay more on the Sequoia as it is a V8 and a larger vehicle, I could expect savings on the Prius. So, I guess this area way be a wash. As for insurance, my agent is telling me the premiums would actually be the same for the Sequioa and the Highlander; odd, b/c I would have expected the Sequoia to be more.

Even though the Sequoia may be overkill, it would definitely meet all of our requirements except fuel efficiency, but that would be balanced out by the Prius. This is painting a good picture to also look at the Sequoia, if I/we could/would be willing to split with our Outback. Hard to give up, b/c once you own Subaru, you will know what I am talking about (Subaru hits it spot on in their commercials). I used to live in a mountainous, snowy environment and drive a '93 Ford Ranger 4x4, which was good in the snow. But wow, when I replaced it with the '09 Outback, I was very impressed with its excellent performance in the snow. It is so sure-footed it is crazy. Based on this and other things, it would be hard to give up.

Anyone have any input on the idea of going from having two midsize SUV type vehicles (Outback & Highlander) to having a large SUV (Sequoia) & a small car (Prius)? Pros and cons, or at least points I may have overlooked.
bbrock

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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Jozxyqk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:47 pm

Keep It Simple wrote:
bottlecap wrote:Boy, Killjoy. You are really trying to earn that name, huh?

The only foreign car that I've owned was a Toyota essentially handed down to me, and quite frankly it would not die and needed no maintenance (other than a half quart of oil every 2,500 miles). Someone ran a red light and killed it, but I put my money on the better car rather than what I perceive as the better nation. Handing your hard earned money to American car companies without regard to whether they deserve it isn't doing America any favors. Quite the opposite - that's precisely what led to the rise of "imports" in this country. Not that I lament that.

JT
I'd save your breathe on this one bottlecap. The joykiller has American blinders on. As Ive stated before, many people are this way about buying foreign cars regardless of if they are clearly better.

Also, sales numbers mean little if the prices of comparable vehicles aren't the same which in this case they are not. The Sequoia costs quite a bit more. Sure their msrp is close, but everyone knows Chevy routinely knocks $10,000.00 off of their $50k-60k trucks at least once a year...Toyota doesn't.

lower price equals more sales.
Domestic bias equals more sales.
Toyota equals better.

P.S. joy kill - suggesting someone move to Fukushima because they recommend a foreign car over domestic is childish and frankly no laughing matter considering what happened there.

K.I.S.
It's interesting that you think the market is infallible when it comes to Japanese cars holding their value ("one thing noone can argue is that the car market knows all. In other words, look at residual values of cars over 100,000 miles and compare the American vehicles with the Japanese vehicles."), but irrational when it comes to the higher domestic sales figures ("Domestic bias equals more sales").

I don't have an axe to grind here, but I would not be surprised that there is an "import bias" with regard to used car reliability that inflates their price beyond their purely rational value. Perhaps you are exhibiting that bias right now. (full disclosure--I've been driving a Ford Focus since 2004 and it has never had any issue of any kind).

killjoy2012
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by killjoy2012 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:59 pm

Keep It Simple wrote: The joykiller has American blinders on.
...
P.S. joy kill
Who's being childish? The guy quoting you your requested 'facts', or the guy purposely changing people's screen names to be funny in replies?
Keep It Simple wrote: The joykiller has American blinders on. As Ive stated before, many people are this way about buying foreign cars regardless of if they are clearly better.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. K.I.S. - Swap the word 'American' for 'Toyota' in your quote above, and that just about describes every single post you've made in this thread, and other car-related threads, and you've made tons of them. I make one with the GM instead of Toyota-colored glasses and you're off to the fight. Mad?

Keep It Simple wrote: Also, sales numbers mean little if the prices of comparable vehicles aren't the same which in this case they are not. The Sequoia costs quite a bit more. Sure their msrp is close, but everyone knows Chevy routinely knocks $10,000.00 off of their $50k-60k trucks at least once a year...Toyota doesn't.

lower price equals more sales.
Domestic bias equals more sales.
Toyota equals better.
It's funny how cost suddenly matters in your "Toyota equals better" justification, yet you don't bother to mention cost at all in your "residual value purely equals quality" argument. How do you think fleet sales, the huge difference in sales volumes and those GM discounts you mention affect the book residual values of a Tahoe/Yukon? Does any of that have anything to do with quality or reliability of the vehicle - No.

And apparently 'the market' doesn't value the Sequoia's extra "better-ness" given that minimal cost delta, since GM outsells them 10 fold every year. Right? Because I'm taking you at your word that Toyota must be better... as it would be impossible to think that GM makes a better vehicle at a better price point than Toyota and outsells them 10x because of it.

Keep It Simple wrote: P.S. joy kill - suggesting someone move to Fukushima because they recommend a foreign car over domestic is childish and frankly no laughing matter considering what happened there.
My point was that the Japanese culture isn't one to highlight problems, make waves or be transparent when dealing with issues.

My other point is I don't understand why you're so anxious to be the spokesman for fueling another country's economy & jobs, when automotive is one of the last manufacturing sectors that we still have (barely) in the USA. Line the competitive products up and let people decide for themselves which is better & worthy of their money - absolutely, I agree. If the US product sucks in comparison - OK, fine. But you're spouting so much Toyota religion with very few facts behind your claims, it's funny/sad. And it's one of the reasons I feel that car threads on BH should be in the same category as politics & religion - because they often are both.

bbrock
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by bbrock » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:43 pm

Hey K.I.S., or Letsgobobby, or anyone else who may know, what are the crash test ratings on the Sequoia? I was looking at both the IIHS and NHTSA and there is no data on the 2014 models or many years back for that matter.
bbrock

Carter3
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Carter3 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:52 pm

Our 2014 traverse is going strong... No problems yet

Browser
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Browser » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:06 am

Carter3 wrote:Our 2014 traverse is going strong... No problems yet
Let us know how things are going in 5 -- maybe 10 years.
We don't know where we are, or where we're going -- but we're making good time.

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:02 am

bbrock wrote:Hey K.I.S., or Letsgobobby, or anyone else who may know, what are the crash test ratings on the Sequoia? I was looking at both the IIHS and NHTSA and there is no data on the 2014 models or many years back for that matter.
As far as I know, you won't find crash test results for any large suvs' because they do not test them. This is from the IIHS website:

Q: Why don't you routinely crash test the largest SUVs?

A: The size and weight of large SUVs mean that, compared with most other passenger vehicles, they start with a higher level of protection for occupants in the most common kinds of front, side and rear impact crashes. They also represent a small segment of the passenger vehicle market. For these reasons, we don't routinely subject the largest SUVs to crash tests. Exceptions are made when manufacturers request and pay for testing.


I think you can rest assured that the Sequoia will be one of the safest vehicles you could be in. It has all the latest safety equipment including front, side, and rear curtain airbags, knee airbag, abs, stability control, etc.... On top of that, its' size will lend added safety if you were ever in an accident.

I still wish they would test them though.

K.I.S.

tjwolf
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by tjwolf » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:45 pm

I would vote for the Sequoia. We have a '08 nearing 100,000 miles. Other than the recalled gas pedal, have experienced only two small problems which were covered by warranty.

If kept to the 55-60 mph, we have gotten up to 21.5 mpg. Mixed driving on mid-western back roads will normally result in mileage of around 17.5- 20 mpg. Stop and go town driving somewhere around 14 mpg. This is the first vehicle that we owned and could drive, fully loaded to Arizona and hold speed (70-80) through the mountains.

The Sequoia features a terrific engine, 4 wheel drive , high towing capacity, short turning radius, the rear suspension is load leveling and will raise and lower 1.5 inches for trailer hookup, rear seats are electrically powered and usable even by adults, back-up camera, etc, etc. We are still on the original brakes and rotors, with the 3rd set of tires just put on. Uses no oil and after 10,000 miles the oil looks as clean as when it goes in the engine.

The only thing I would not want on the package (limited level) would be the sun roof which we never use, and the navigation system, which is poor and cannot be changed while driving.

Also have a 2014 Buick Encore cross-over for local chasing. While it is nice, the quality is not the same as that of the Sequoia. I know, neither was the price!
Tom

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widestance
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by widestance » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:30 pm

A buddy of mine has an Enclave and I got to drive it a bit.
Pretty nice vehicle, but a major complaint I had with it are the huge A-Pillars. They really affect visibility on curvy winding roads when you're trying to see around the bend.
Plenty of room for a whole group of my buddies, coolers, and requisite poker paraphernalia.
Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face - Mike Tyson

Keep It Simple
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by Keep It Simple » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:18 am

tjwolf wrote:I would vote for the Sequoia. We have a '08 nearing 100,000 miles. Other than the recalled gas pedal, have experienced only two small problems which were covered by warranty.
tjwolf - could you let us know what the two small problems were?

Thanks,

K.I.S.

tjwolf
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Re: New vehicle...GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse, or Buick Encla

Post by tjwolf » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:07 pm

tjwolf - could you let us know what the two small problems were?
The sequoia has been a great truck. If they discontinue the model, as rumored, we plan to purchase a new Sequoia during that last year, even though we will not have hit our 200,000 millage target.

One problem was a control module for the rear power window. We often carry bikes in a hitch style carrier. The rear power window allowed us to access the rear storage area with out needing to dismount the bikes and/or open the rear tail-gate. Unfortunately it failed in the open/down position, while traveling.

The other was a leaking water pump that may have been a clamp on a hose at the pump. The dealer "supposedly noticed" a coolant leak in that area, although we never had any coolant on the garage floor, nor any loss of fluid from the over-flow reservoir.

We have always had our service done at the dealership. It probably cost a few extra $$$, but provided peace of mind and an online record of our service activities.. Synthetic oil and filters, plus a early 100,000 mile service (planned travel) are all that has been required, other than the above.

I hope that this helps!
Tom

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